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No it isn't.
2009 was a total teardown.
2010 was a total rebuild.
2011 is continuing to add those pieces.
Ask yourself: How much better is the Browns offense with 2 legit WR's?
The 2010 draft class will be going into its 2nd year. A new draft class will come in, and if it's ANYTHING like the 2010 class then it will be a massive upgrade.
I see last year's free agent class staying around as well. Fujita is fine in any defensive scheme. Sheldon Brown has at least a year left in him.
There will be roster turnover, no question. Kenyon Coleman? Gone. Shaun Rogers? Gone. Eric Barton? Gone.
That doesn't mean you can't upgrade those positions.
The Eagles were supposedly "rebuilding" last year and they had a pretty successful season, all things considered. Same with the Patriots.
I'm not worried until I see the free agent class and draft. The 2011 Browns will be better than the 2010 Browns in the same way the 2010 Browns were better than the 2009 Browns.
All true if we didn't replace every coach and scheme this team will run. It's not just a different coach, it's entirely new schemes and position requirements for those schemes. It's not a question of plugging holes anymore. It's a totally different team in every way.
A rebuild is a rebuild. Not accepting that is just being naive.
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Ammo
our LB are not 4-3 LB we will need mostly new 4-3 LB..we have 1 4-3 LB on this team Fujita..that can start thats it..Jackson will leave via FA
we have 1 DL that can play 4-3 DL and thats Rubin as a DT..we have no 4-3 DE on this roster besides the kid we traded with the Vike and he never played....
Mangini was a few pieces away from fielding a solid team every year, this will be another 3-4 year rebuilding project...
I don't see how we are going to add 3 starters on the DL for the 4-3,plus decent depth, plus 3 new 4-3 LB and 3 more for depth, plus learning new systems on both sides of the ball
no way...no way were even close to 8 wins next year..under those conditions that just doesn't happen right away....Rex Ryan keep Mangini's OC in NY...he didn't tear the team apart...we will
i will not be suprised at all for another 4-12 or 5-11 season...Holmgren is not selling me pink lemonade we will be competitive next year....
had we kept Mangini and a 3rd year of continuity..yes...Mangini's system was working and we were getting close....now....this is a near total reset in terms of roster and system...
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I will throw this out as well: Seeing Colt in his infancy, the smarts he has shown in making reads at the line, I would hope that very soon we see HIM calling the plays because that is the best place to do it. Right at the line of fire by the person that is seeing it ALL the best and the most.
Excellent point bro...Hadn't crossed my mind...
Would absolutely LOVE to see this develop...
works pretty well for Indi... if Colt is even almost as smart as Peyton, we'd do well...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Will Shurmur be busy calling plays when he should be lighting a fire under the ass of his DC that just allowed a 96 yard drive???? THAT is his job....not calling plays.
I have to disagree with you on this. He likely won't be busy calling plays while the defense is on the field. He may be busy talking to the offensive staff for the next series, but not so caught up in that he doesn't know what's going on in the game.
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More often than not it has shown to not be successful...
Holmgren called his own plays after only 3 years as OC of San Fran. Did pretty good.
Sean Payton calls his own plays now in NO even though he was relieved of his play calling duties after 2-1/2 years calling plays for the Giants. Did pretty well.
"Fourteen coaches feature mostly offensive backgrounds and one, John Harbaugh of Baltimore, was a standout special-teams coach for much of his career as an assistant. By unofficial count, about eight head coaches call their team's offensive plays."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=4535768
The article goes on to mention 4 head coaches who call their own defensive plays. I don't think calling plays for either side takes their mind out of the big picture on game day. Now if he were also the team's only OC, then I'm not sure that's a good scenario.
"Although Buffalo Bills coach Chan Gailey may hire someone as offensive coordinator, he will call the plays in Year One. He reserved the right to relinquish those duties in the future, but he feels a hands-on approach is the way to go for now. “If you want to get it the way you believe it needs to be done from the start, then you need to do it,” he said.
Source: Buffalo News
I'm just saying that a lot of head coaches call their own plays on both sides of the ball, (not at the same time, it's either/or), at least initially. It could be tougher for a first-time coach to make it work but if Shurmur thinks he can do it and Holmgren thinks he can do it and Heckert is on board with it as well, then I say go for it.
#gmstrong
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For kob and red ... I still think that heckert has been planning to switch to the 4-3 either way.
Some have said Gocong is better in the 4-3 ... we have him here .. Fujita has experience .. same thing .. Rubin I'm not sure on but imo he's too small to be a true NT in the 3-4. We also traded for Jayme Mitchell...
In either case we would have had to rebuild the front 7 as many have said before .. but by starting the rebuild at the backend we gave ourselves options. By bringing in Gocong, Fujita, Mitchell and keeping Rubin (if all four of those could be starters in the 4-3) then we really only need to fill 3 more positions AND create depth. Some of the current players we have now will fill those roles ... and if we draft one or two 4-3 dline or backers and bring in one or two 4-3 backers in FA .. we will have the pieces in place to run it.
Last edited by PStu24; 01/20/11 01:45 PM.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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This year was competitive.
We were in almost every single game this year. We lost almost every game we lost by a TD or less.
@ Tampa: Lost 17-14
KC: Lost 16-14
@Baltimore: Lost 24-17
Jets: Lost 26-20 OT
@Jacksonville: L 24-20
@Buffalo: Lost 13-6
@Cincinnati: Lost 19-17
That's 7 games lost by a total of 27 points. (slightly more than a FG per game)
That's competitive. That's a play or player here or there.
If we weren't competitive, then how do you define competitive?
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Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6041386Sources: Browns holding interviews ESPN.com news services The Cleveland Browns are interviewing former Arizona Cardinals defensive coordinator Billy Davis and former University of Pittsburgh coach Dave Wannstedt for their defensive coordinator job on Thursday, league sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter. Wannstedt was forced out at Pitt last month after a season in which the Panthers failed to make a BCS bowl, despite being prohibitive favorites to win the Big East in a down year for the conference. He formerly coached the Miami Dolphins and Chicago Bears after serving as Jimmy Johnson's defensive coordinator with the Dallas Cowboys and at the University of Miami. The Cardinals fired Davis on Jan. 6, after a disappointing 5-11 season, in which Arizona was ranked 29th in overall defense and 30th in points allowed out of the league's 32 teams. Davis was previously the San Francisco 49ers' defensive coordinator and served as a defensive assistant for six other NFL teams, including the Browns. The Browns are hiring a defensive coordinator to replace Rob Ryan, who left Cleveland to take over the Dallas Cowboys' defense.
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I see your point. But, of our only 5 wins .. two were by only a field goal (Cincinatti and Miami) ... one was by a panthers missed field goal ... One was by Drew Brees who helped Bowens score more points than our offense did and hodges was our offensive player of the game from a fake punt (gimmicks, not competitive football though) ... and one was VERY impressive, but it was after a bye week against New England.
Plus, when you account that they run a spread and we became quite well at defending the pass with Ryan's crazy eyes no dline ... well even a Brown finds a W once in a while these past few years.
I completely agree that we were maybe 1 play in 3 or 4 games from being 8-8, or even if we were lucky then up to 10-6 ... but we were also 1 play in a few of our W's from being 2-14 as well.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Davis is a YTown guy .....for whatever it's worth. His father was also with the Browns FO years ago. We won't sign him though ..... I hear that Wiley Coyote is up next to interview ..... and he's the new front runner. He has this Acme Defense that you just won't believe ........... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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pretty much Ytown...you hit the nail right on the head....of course if Shurmur doesn't get off to a fast start i won't be suprised to see guys like mac calling for his head.
I can't speak for anyone else (don't want to either) but I don't expect Shumur to get off to a fast start, in fact, I'd be shocked if we see 5 wins next season..
and it's for the exact reasons you bring up,, it's a teardown and rebuild..
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Damanshot
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Some have said Gocong is better in the 4-3
Philly traded him to us because he sucked in the 4-3, we felt he'd be better in the 3-4. He wasn't bad...But yeah...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Billy Davis was horrible for the Cardinals (who ran a 3-4).
Cardinals were 30th in points against, 29th in yards, 23 in passing yards, and 30th in rushing yards.
How can the guy that led that defense get an interview for another defensive coordinator position a week after he was fired?
The 49ers also fired him for being crappy.
Linebacker coach?(A position he previously held with multiple teams) Yes.
Defensive coordinator? Please, no.
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Billy Davis was horrible for the Cardinals (who ran a 3-4).
Cardinals were 30th in points against, 29th in yards, 23 in passing yards, and 30th in rushing yards.
How can the guy that led that defense get an interview for another defensive coordinator position a week after he was fired?
The 49ers also fired him for being crappy.
Linebacker coach?(A position he previously held with multiple teams) Yes.
Defensive coordinator? Please, no.
Maybe he and Daboll have the same Agent...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Packers switched from the 4-3 to the 3-4 in ONE offseason. Their defense the year before was an absolute mess.
Signing a Vincent Jackson/Sidney Rice and drafting a burner at receiver would be huge for this offense.
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Packers switched from the 4-3 to the 3-4 in ONE offseason. Their defense the year before was an absolute mess.
Signing a Vincent Jackson/Sidney Rice and drafting a burner at receiver would be huge for this offense.
I doubt either team lets either of them go. VJ may of had his problems, but I think SD figured out they kind of need him towards the end there.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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For kob and red ... I still think that heckert has been planning to switch to the 4-3 either way.
Some have said Gocong is better in the 4-3 ... we have him here .. Fujita has experience .. same thing .. Rubin I'm not sure on but imo he's too small to be a true NT in the 3-4. We also traded for Jayme Mitchell...
In either case we would have had to rebuild the front 7 as many have said before .. but by starting the rebuild at the backend we gave ourselves options. By bringing in Gocong, Fujita, Mitchell and keeping Rubin (if all four of those could be starters in the 4-3) then we really only need to fill 3 more positions AND create depth. Some of the current players we have now will fill those roles ... and if we draft one or two 4-3 dline or backers and bring in one or two 4-3 backers in FA .. we will have the pieces in place to run it.
No way were we moving to a 43.
Mangini was a huge proponent of the 34. He wouldn't even consider another base defense. Hoping to add 4 starters to our front 7 through FA and the draft is crazy. We need other things too. Badly. Personally, if I see St Clair line his fat arse up again, I'm heading to the clock tower. WR's. RBs. Backfield etc.
Like it or not, this is a ground up re-do.
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No way were we moving to a 43.
Where you been bro? There is are 99.9% chance we are switching to a 4-3.
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Mangini was a huge proponent of the 34. He wouldn't even consider another base defense.
I don't know if you know this but....Mangini got fired. Like 2 1/2 weeks ago. I don't think he has any say in our defense anymore.
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Hoping to add 4 starters to our front 7 through FA and the draft is crazy.
So if we ran a 3-4 we would need to replace Bowens, Barton, and Robaire Smith. At least. Adding three starters. Easy. Adding four. Crazy.
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We need other things too. Badly.
Indeed.
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Personally, if I see St Clair line his fat arse up again, I'm heading to the clock tower.
Yes.
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WR's. RBs. Backfield etc.
RB's are backfield I thought.  Anyway, we have Hillis and Hardesty. And Vickers. So ideally we would only need a 3rd running back if Hardesty comes back healthy.
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Like it or not, this is a ground up re-do.
Before Mangini was here we were below ground. He got us to the ground and maybe even the foundation. With or without Mangini we are probably in the same spot.
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He was replying to the person who said Heckert would change to a 4-3 if Mangini had been retained...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Slooowwww dowwwnnn and reeeeeead the pooooosts.
it wiiiiillll saaaaave yooooouu alooooot of tiiiimmme.
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If so then that's my fault for not phrasing it correctly. I think that PART of last season's approach was to prepare for life with or without Mangini. If Heckert and Holmy drafted personnel exclusive to the 3-4 and we dont want Mangini, then we kind of dictated that. If we went after 4-3 personnel, then we WOULD have been setting up Mangini for failure. That's why I meant that Heckert was preparing for us to go either way. Ward and Haden can play in either the 4-3 or 3-4 .. so we started with the secondary. Fujita showed he could do either, and Gocong who knows.
The point is if we would have focused on bringing in front 7 last year, it would have more or less forced us to make the commitment to EITHER the 4-3 or 3-4 and addressing other concerns on the team. But, I think that by not committing to either defensive front, it allowed us the full options of which way to go in this year.
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@pstu24
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Some have said Gocong is better in the 4-3
Philly traded him to us because he sucked in the 4-3, we felt he'd be better in the 3-4. He wasn't bad...But yeah...
there is no proof of that. That may not be the reason he was traded and there was much speculation about it, but no proof..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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WR's. RBs. Backfield etc.
RB's are backfield I thought.
I was talking about the defensive backfield.
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That's my bad. Should have read more carefully.
I'm an idiot.
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If so then that's my fault for not phrasing it correctly. I think that PART of last season's approach was to prepare for life with or without Mangini. If Heckert and Holmy drafted personnel exclusive to the 3-4 and we dont want Mangini, then we kind of dictated that. If we went after 4-3 personnel, then we WOULD have been setting up Mangini for failure. That's why I meant that Heckert was preparing for us to go either way. Ward and Haden can play in either the 4-3 or 3-4 .. so we started with the secondary. Fujita showed he could do either, and Gocong who knows.
The point is if we would have focused on bringing in front 7 last year, it would have more or less forced us to make the commitment to EITHER the 4-3 or 3-4 and addressing other concerns on the team. But, I think that by not committing to either defensive front, it allowed us the full options of which way to go in this year.
I don't know. But I would be astounded if our GM focused his aquisitions and draft based on players that could function in either package. You can't afford to do that in the NFL. You get the best players you can period. Not someone that could possibly play in a defense that we might switch to if our coach happens to possibly fail enough for them to maybe fire him.
They kept him and gave him what he needed to make his team the way he wanted (with the posibble exception of McCoy who was Holmy's want). If they hadn't, he would have left before he was fired.
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As someone who loves a good conspiracy theory, this is all just setting up perfectly...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I agree entirely, but a team can choose to take needs over talent. I don't recommend it and am not a fan, but we could have taken about anyone because we needed a lot.
I'm not saying we had to change our draft or operate in some way we wouldn't otherwise have done, but they could have just put the emphasis on finding defense backs, and the offensive side of the football on the draft board.
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@pstu24
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As someone who loves a good conspiracy theory, this is all just setting up perfectly...
(tense music)
"...with the 85th pick, the Cleveland Browns select...Colt McCoy..."
(more tense music)
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Just to get back on topic ..... http://blogs.cantonrep.com/freshbrownies/holmgren-55-elway-10/No NFL offensive coordinator worth his salt is happy to simply organize things all week and then sip fruit juice while his head coach call the plays on Sunday. That is why Pat Shurmur, who says he will call the plays “at first,” is in hire-and-hope mode as he searches for his Browns OC. Bill Musgrave — I suspect you’re like me and have almost no feel for the guy — slipped away to the Vikings, who will let him call plays from the start. I’m half suspicious of guys like Musgrave anyway … guys who have no affinity for this region. He’s a former Oregon quarterback who has never played or worked anywhere close to here. He was a backup quarterback for the 49ers during one of the years Mike Holmgren was offensive coordinator there. • • • They weren’t exactly the lucky Bucs, since they went 10-6 but didn’t make the playoffs. But it can be argued that Tampa Bay and Cleveland were handed two vastly different lottery tickets as the headed into their 2010 seasons. In Raheem Morris’ first year head coach, the Bucs were 3-13. He should be applauded for turning Tampa Bay into a 10-6 team in his second year, but … The 2010 Bucs scored two wins over Carolina (2-14), and single wins over Washington (6-10), Cincinnati (4-12), Cleveland (5-11), Arizona (5-11), San Francisco (6-10), St. Louis (7-9) and Seattle (7-9). The Bucs’ only win against a winning team was in the season finale against the Saints. In Eric Mangini’s first year as head coach, the Browns were 5-11. His second year also produced a 5-11 finish. Whereas Tampa Bay beat nine teams with losing records, Cleveland PLAYED only five teams with losing records. The Browns beat three of them, Cincinnati, Carolina and Miami. Against teams with winning records, the Bucs were 1-5. (But .... remember ... according to Grossi, who you play doesn't matter .....) • • • So much changed for the Bucs AND Browns when Jake Delhomme threw an interception while mangling an ankle late in the first of the opener. The Browns had a chance to build on a 14-3 lead before that disaster. • • • Pat Shurmur’s 2011 schedule seems far more favorable than Mangini’s 2010 final exam. Opponents include the Jags, Texans, Titans, Dolphins, Seahawks, Rams, Raiders, Cardinals, 49ers and Colts.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Just clicking http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81...le=HP_headlinesthis was on NFL.com. it speaks to the Viks hiring Musgrave.. The important comment is this Quote:
Frazier added that Musgrave will have control over the offense.
"It's Bill's baby," Frazier said. "He's going to orchestrate the offense and put together the game plan."
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Sounds like the Viks gave musgrave totaly autonomy.. maybe that's why he took that job over the Browns.. of course, we don't know if he was even offered the browns job do we? I mean officially.
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Sounds like the Viks gave musgrave totaly autonomy.. maybe that's why he took that job over the Browns.. of course, we don't know if he was even offered the browns job do we? I mean officially.
Big difference in talent levels aside, I'd say that was definitely the clincher. Probably why guys like Brad Childress most likely wouldn't even consider an interview w/ us too. Everybody knows Shurmur is calling the plays.
This is why people probably should get used to the idea of a lesser known, QB coach type w/ less experience taking our OC job.
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We have a guy who was the offensive coordinator of an offense that was near the bottom in the league this past year ....... and we want to hire an offensive coordinator who will not call plays ..... and God only knows who for defensive coordinator .......
Early on it seemed like Holmgren wanted to target the best and brightest ...... then he hired Shurmur. This didn't seem like the best/brightest available to me and many others.
Now it seems like we're trying to hire coaches who will not outshine him, instead of finding the best coordinators and assistants we can find.
This may *not* be the case ..... but it sure is giving that impression.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Sounds like the Viks gave musgrave totaly autonomy.. maybe that's why he took that job over the Browns.. of course, we don't know if he was even offered the browns job do we? I mean officially.
Big difference in talent levels aside, I'd say that was definitely the clincher. Probably why guys like Brad Childress most likely wouldn't even consider an interview w/ us too. Everybody knows Shurmur is calling the plays.
This is why people probably should get used to the idea of a lesser known, QB coach type w/ less experience taking our OC job.
I can tell you that it's difficult to fit a square peg in a round hole so to speak.
So, if I'm Shumur, I tell the guys I'm interviewing what the deal is.. I'd let them know that initially I'll be calling the plays and that will change at some point. You gotta be totally honest.
And if the guy you interview doesn't want that kind of an arrangment, then it's best to move along to the next candidate.
there is really only one thing that is concerning to me at this point, I'm not hearing anything about other OC candidates...,
maybe, as others have said, they are waiting to speak with someone from a team that's still in the playoffs...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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This is why I was pushing for Mike "bunch of" Mularky. He seemed like the kind of OC turned HC that would bring an OC to call plays, therefore allowing him to oversee everything... Apparently were running with HC Holmgren and OC Shurmur... Whatever. 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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daman...yep...I do believe I mentioned that with Frazier, the Vikes HC, being from the defensive side, his OC would have total control of the offensive side.
Can't blame Musgrave for taking the Vikes job.
The Browns need to find the right fit for our OC, someone willing to work with Shurmur under his conditions.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Quote:
someone willing to work with Shurmur under his conditions.
I am thinking that any veteran coach some on here clamor about will not come here under those conditions.
Musgrave would have been, in my opinion, a strong OC.
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If I was head coach, I would say:
"We are going to find the very best coordinators we can find, and hire them. Then we will use their input, along with that of the front office, and of course, my own, and find the best possible position coaches we can find.
I am the head coach. My job is to be the head coach. I want the very best, because ultimately, my success, and the team's success, will depend largely upon the quality of the coordinators I hire.
I don't care if the candidates have been head coach multiple times. I am secure enough in my own position to handle strong coordinators. They will work for me, and obviously I will have final say over the direcdtion of the team, and gameplans, but they will have great latitude in creating solid gameplans, and will be expected to see that they create positive results on the field on gamedays."
I bet I could hire some damn strong coordinators .... instead of "I'm going to handcuff and neuter whomever I hire, at least initially. I am going to make them do the grunt work and take the "fun part" for myself."
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We want someone who is willing to be neutered.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We have a guy who was the offensive coordinator of an offense that was near the bottom in the league this past year ....... and we want to hire an offensive coordinator who will not call plays ..... and God only knows who for defensive coordinator .......
Early on it seemed like Holmgren wanted to target the best and brightest ...... then he hired Shurmur. This didn't seem like the best/brightest available to me and many others.
Now it seems like we're trying to hire coaches who will not outshine him, instead of finding the best coordinators and assistants we can find.
This may *not* be the case ..... but it sure is giving that impression.
agreed!
this whole hiring of Shurmur and everything that has gone on the last couple of days has been nothing short of a complete diaster...we have had not one, but two different guys were interviewed for OC and offered the job and they refused...McCoy was the first choice..he said no way stayed in Denver..Musgrave was the 2nd choice and he said no way and took off to viking land.
this is turning to a whole big egg in the face type of situation..in fact is downright embarrassing...again we are being laughed at...other teams that need coordinators are getting their guys and again we will be stuck with another loser retreads like Dave Wannstedt! 
this was pretty hard to stomach, but now its just getting comical! 
ahh how much it seems things change they have remained exactly the same.....
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we have had not one, but two different guys were interviewed for OC and offered the job and they refused...McCoy was the first choice..he said no way stayed in Denver..Musgrave was the 2nd choice and he said no way and took off to viking land.
Could you please post a link showing that McCoy and Musgrave were offered the job?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Or that they were or first and second choice? For all we know Holmy has those guys listed as 4th and 5th .. and we have 3 more candidates coming in from playoff teams, or one that we are currently negotiating with but it just hasn't been broken yet as news...
Just because it doesn't look good doesn't mean it's bad. It just means we don't know and that might make some uneasy... but it's not even close to being done yet.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Musgrave expected to be Browns'
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