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This is NOT a post about the playoffs, it merely references playoff data from the past 3 years to make a larger point.
2010 playoffs:
Final 8 teams: New Orleans, Seattle, Green Bay, Atlanta, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, New England
Top 8 scoring defenses for 2010:
1) Pittsburgh
2) Packers
3) Baltimore
4) Bears
5) Falcons
6) Jets
7) Saints
8) Patriots
7 of the final 8 playoff teams were top 8 in scoring defense, and the other was upset in the playoffs.
2009 playoffs:
Final 8 teams: Baltimore, Indianapolis, Jets, Chargers, Arizona, New Orleans, Dallas, Minnesota.
Top 8 scoring defenses for 2009:
1) Jets
2) Dallas
3) Ravens
4) 49'ers
5) Patriots
6) Bengals
7) Packers
8) Indianapolis
4 of the final 8 playoff teams were in the top 8 in scoring defense. 3 other of the top 8, New England. Cincinnati, and Packers all made the playoffs.
2008 playoffs:
Final 8 teams: Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Tennessee, San Diego, Arizona, Carolina, Philly, and the Giants.
Top 8 scoring defenses for 2008:
1) Pittsburgh
2) Tennessee
3) Ravens
4) Philly
5) Giants
6) Washington
7) Indianapolis
8) New England.
So, again 5 of the top 8 scoring defenses made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs .... The Colts made the playoffs, and New England went 11-5 but missed the playoffs.
So, in the past 3 years, 16 of the top 24 teams in scoring defense have made the division round of the playoffs. In addition, 4 other teams made the playoffs, but lost in the first round.
That means that 20 of 24 top scoring defenses made the playoffs in the past 3 years.
In 2010, the top 8 scoring offense were:
1) Patriots
2) San Diego
3) Philly
4) Indianapolis
5) Falcons
6) Raiders
7) Cowboys
8) Giants
OK, so 4 of these teams made the playoffs. None made it through to the conference championship games.
In 2009, the top 8 scoring offenses were:
1) New Orleans
2) Minnesota
3) Packers
4) San Diego
5) Philly
6) New England
7) Indianapolis
8) Giants
4 of these teams made the division series. 2 others made the playoffs
In 2008, the top 8 scoring offenses were:
1) Saints
2) Chargers
3) Arizona
4) Giants
5) Packers
6) Eagles
7) Carolina
8) New England
5 of these teams made the division round of the playoffs. The other 3 did not make the playoffs.
So, having a top 8 scoring offense in the last 3 years had resulted in 13 division round playoff teams. 15 out of 24 made the playoffs in total.
2010 will definitely see a team with a top 8 scoring defense, but not a top 8 scoring offense win the Super Bowl.
2009 saw the team with the best overall scoring offense win it all. 2 of the final 4 had top 8 scoring defenses, and all but the Jets had a top 8 scoring offense
2008 saw the team with the best scoring defense beat the team with the 3rd best scoring offense in the Super Bowl. 3 of the 4 final teams had top 8 scoring defenses, and the 2 NFC teams were in the top 8 scoring offenses.
So ..... winning a championship .....
Championship Games:
Of the 12 teams to make a championship game in the past 3 years, 9 had a top 8 scoring defense ... and 5 of 12 had a top 8 scoring offense.
I think that I'd invest my money in creating a strong scoring defense if I were interested in winning a championship.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Nice work YTown,
So defense 'still' wins Championships.
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That's an interesting compilation. I know Holmgren is known as an offensive guru but I seem to remember him having some pretty tough defenses in Green Bay and Seattle.
I did remember the year.. 96.. where the Packers had the #1 offense AND #1 defense. Not surprisingly, that was the year that they won the Super Bowl. According to Wiki, the defensive coordinator that year was none other than Fritz Shurmur. I'm not really making any point with that other than generally saying that I think Holmgren knows the importance of a strong defense and I trust his judgement.
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Going back a little further, and looking at Super Bowl Champions ....
2007 Season: Giants: 17th scoring defense, 14th scoring offense. Weird.
Patriots: 4th scoring defense, 1st scoring offense
2006 Season: Colts: 23rd scoring defense, 3rd scoring offense.
Bears: 3rd scoring defense. 2nd scoring offense.
2005 Season: Pittsburgh: 3rd (t) scoring defense. 9th scoring offense.
Seahawks 7th scoring defense, 1st scoring offense.
2004 Season: Patriots: 2nd scoring defense, 4th scoring offense.
Eagles: 2nd (t) Scoring defense. 8th scoring offense. (How weird is that, the 2 Super Bowl teams tied for 2nd best scoring defense)
2003 Season: Patriots: 1st scoring defense, 12th scoring offense.
Panthers: 10th scoring defense. 15th scoring offense.
2002: Bucs: 1st scoring defense. 18th scoring offense.
Raiders: 6th scoring defense. 2nd scoring offense.
2001: Patriots: 6th scoring defense. 6th scoring offense
Rams: 7th scoring defense. 1st scoring offense.
2000: Ravens: 1st scoring defense, 14th scoring offense.
Giants: 5th scoring defense.15th scoring offense.
So .... from 2000 to 2009, the Super Bowl winners had scoring defenses ranked
20
1
17
23
3
2
1
1
6
1
So 70% of the time, in the past decade, the Super Bowl winner has been in the top 6 in the NFL in scoring defense.
Offensively, for the same time frame, Super Bowl winners have had scoring offenses ranked:
1
20
12
3
9
4
12
18
6
14
So ..... to me it doesn't appear that you need a super high powered scoring offense ..... but you better be able to stop the opponent from scoring if you want to win Super Bowls. This year will be no different as all 4 remaining teams have exceptional scoring defenses, (ranked 1, 2, 4, and 6th) and scoring offenses ranked 10, 12, 13, and 20th.
Give me defense ... a great scoring defense!
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree.
One other factor in that is it is much easier for the same D to show up every week then it is for the same O to show up every week.
In other words, it seems it is easier for a offense to break down in any given week v a defense.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Give me defense ... a great scoring defense!
Which is exactly why I don't give a crap if AJ Green is sitting there at 6...We MUST TAKE...
Fairley
Dareus
Bowers
Quinn
Peterson
Amukamara
With Green a sure LOCK in the Top 5...Obviously TWO of these guys will be there...
One MUST be a Brown...
Go Browns!!!
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And we better find a GREAT defensive coordinator.
Shurmur can do his 26th ranked offense stuff for now ...... but we need to build a great defense.
(Especially since we are tearing down and starting over despite having the 14th ranked scoring defense last year)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I agree.
One other factor in that is it is much easier for the same D to show up every week then it is for the same O to show up every week.
In other words, it seems it is easier for a offense to break down in any given week v a defense.
We MUST build a defense comporable to that of Pitt and Balt to even sniff a Division Championship...
Consistently solid D's is the sole reason Pitt and Balt have dominated this division...It's also why Cinci fluxuates as severely as they do year after year...NEVER have they had a top tier defense...
We can play all we want with this WCO...DEFENSE is where it's at...
Bring in Wannstedt!!!!!!!!!
Go Browns!!!
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Not to split hairs, but New Orleans wasn't a final eight team this year. Chicago was. But that actually bolsters your point, as their scoring defense was ranked higher than NO's.
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Revisiting the 4-3 Defense...Schemes and Blitz Packages/Coverages are in the Link... http://www.letstalkdefense.com/43defense.html4-3 Defense See Pass Coverages Below! Here is the base 4-3 against a Pro I Offensive Set. Responsibilities: Strong End: Outside shade of TE. Wants to make sure the TE does not get a free release on to Sam but must still play outside gap. If anything comes at him, wants to bounce it outside toward the sideline. The basic philosophy is to make everything go toward the sideline. Do not let the Ball Carrier get running north to south! Strong Tackle: Responsible for the B gap strong side. Playing outside shade of the Guard. Weak Tackle: Responsible for the A gap weak side. Playing inside shade of the Guard Weak Tackle: Responsible for the C gap weak side. Has to be more of the physical of the Defensive Ends. Also should be one of your better pass rushers. Sam Linebacker: Sam will align 5 yards deep with his nose on the outside shade of the Offensive Tackle to the Strong Side. Sam is responsible for the C gap on run and also will be responsible for helping bounce everything outside toward the sideline. On pass, Sam is responsible for the Curl on the # 1 receiver. If there are more than 2 receivers outside, Sam is to wall the # 2 receiver using a "trail technique" and pushing him outside the hash. The Sam will always square up at 15 yards and not chase any vertical routes. (This is in cover 2) Mike Linebacker: Mike will align 5 yards deep with his nose on the strong shoulder of the center. He is responsible for the Strong A gap on run and responsible for pursuing inside out on anything else. On pass, Mike is responsible for walling the TE using a "trail technique" and not allowing him to get the "hot" pass or setting up in the hook zone. If the TE disappears within 5 yards from the L.O.S. Mike will open up to the middle of the field looking for anybody crossing his zone. Mike will always square up at 15 yards and never chase any vertical routes (This is in cover 2) Will Linebacker: Will will align 5 yards deep with his nose on the strong shoulder of the Offensive Tackle.Will is responsible for the "B" gap on the run and also will be responsible for helping bounce everything outside toward the sideline. On pass, Will is responsible for the Curl on the # 1 receiver. If there are more than 2 receivers outside,Will is to wall the # 2 receiver using a "trail technique" and pushing him outside the hash. The Will will always square up at 15 yards and not chase any vertical routes. (This is in cover 2) SS: 10 - 12 yards deep over the TE. on run, SS will play run support on top of the Sam Linebacker, again helping bounce everything to the sideline and cornerback. On pass, SS is playing 2 deep. He wants to work to the hash and keep everything in front of him and break on the ball once it is IN THE AIR, not any sooner. FS: 10 - 12 yards deep between the #1 receiver and Offensive Tackle. The FS will have same responsibilities as SS. Normally your SS is the better tackler and the FS is your better pass defender. Corners: 5 yards off the #1 receiver outside shade. On the snap, they want to jam the receivers toward the inside, denying them the sidelines and forcing them toward the Safety. The Corners do not backpedal, they will wait for the receiver to come to them maintaining that outside leverage. They are also looking inside finding the ball. On run, they are the containment. They are to force everything back inside where he has support pursuing the play. On pass, if the ball is not in the air after the 3rd step, they are to open to the inside and sprint to 15 yards depth to help squeeze the deep out route pass and allow the safety time to come from over the top to make the play.
Go Browns!!!
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You're right, I mistyped.
There was a lot of stuff in there.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Before the Browns can even compete for a championship, we must win our division or have a good enough overall record to make it as a wild card team.
To win the AFC North, the Browns must have an offense capable of putting up enough points to win against two of the best defenses in the NFL...Steelers and Ravens.
IMO, the Browns have a good start on developing an offense capable of defeating the defenses in the AFC North. We still need to add some personnel, WR/RT, but we are getting close on offense.
We hired an offensive minded HC who will be calling the plays and now the Browns need to add experienced coaches capable of teaching the offense.
On the defensive side, if we are switching to a 4-3, we will need to concentrate on the front 7. The defense needs a major upgrade when it comes to "speed" and "athleticism" of the front 7.
The critical positions of need for the Browns can be boiled down to DE, LB, WR and RT. The Browns need to continue to upgrade the overall talent level of the roster, regardless of position, whenever possible.
I have been a believer that offensive minded coaches are a plus when it comes to building a playoff caliber football team. But, teams can and do win championships with either offensive and defensive minded HCs.
If a team has a defensive minded HC, that team must have an experienced, capable OC running the offense. Same is true if a team has an offensive minded HC...that team must have a capable, experienced DC if they are going to win a Super Bowl.
The Browns have been building since the day Holmgren was hired. A strong front office has been built and in one season, paid dividends in the area of player personnel.
Now Holmgren, Heckert and their staff is working to hire the best available coaching staff to support the offensive and defensive plans.
We need to keep in mind what Holmgren is doing here in Cleveland...
....he is not simply building an offense capable of making the playoffs...
....he is not simply building a defense capable of making the playoffs...
....Holmgren is building a franchise, capable of winning in the AFC North, making the playoffs and winning a Super Bowl.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Your last statement is right in Mac.
How many times have we seen the Steelers NOT retain a FA and figure the team was going to suffer yet they always find a way. That's a winning organization.
Currently, we know nothing about that...
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Quote:
....Holmgren is building a franchise, capable of winning in the AFC North, making the playoffs and winning a Super Bowl.
Quote:
Your last statement is right in Mac.
How many times have we seen the Steelers NOT retain a FA and figure the team was going to suffer yet they always find a way. That's a winning organization.
Currently, we know nothing about that...
Those who believe Holmgren wasted a year by keeping Mangini and staff need to realize, Holmgren did take some major steps toward building the franchise, starting with the foundation...the front office.
The expertise of the Browns front office paid dividends last season and will for years to come. Also, we can look for Holmgren and his staff to continue adding top talent in the front office, strengthening the foundation of the franchise.
Last edited by mac; 01/21/11 09:39 AM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Nice post ytown.
It goes both ways though. You can have a solid defense, but you also have to have an offense capable of staying on the field.
We've always heard that the way to win in this game is to be able to stop the run, and the ability to run the ball. Control the clock...win the time of possession battle...win the game. This is the safest way to win. This was Mangini's way.
The flaw in this scheme is that you are not able to overcome a large scoring deficit. So your defense has to be able to rush the passer very well also..you also as an offense have to minimize turnovers because they can put you into a hole that you are unable to get out of.
Now the opposite side of the coin is an offense that is built to combat a solid defense extremely well. The WCO...balt and pitt have excellent run stopping defenses...they are also able to get the passer with a variety of blitzs....the wco makes them defend the whole field as apposed to between the tackles. When you are not one dimensional on offense, you win. 8 in the box...quick slants, or throw it outside. defense plays back alittle to stop the quick passes run it up the middle, or go over the top.
The ability to score and get a lead helps your defense too. It eventually forces the other team to pass to catch up. Most defensive scores are from interceptions, or knocking the ball out of the qb's hands. I'll bet that most of those scoring defenses were playing with a lead.
I won't argue that we need a good defense, but we need an offense that can force the other team out of their game plan...force them to have to pass...force them to have to take chances....then you get a sack, or an interception, and they dig an even bigger hole, and its game over.
So when you say "best scoring defense" there was points being scored to put them into a position to do that.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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Quote:
It goes both ways though.
It sure does. I read an excellent business book years ago that encouraged a model of extreme focus on your strengths while keeping the other areas serviceable. The point was that if you continuously pour resources into propping up weak areas, you'll never excel.
Now, to apply this to the Browns. What are our strengths right now? O line and running game? What if we were to focus on those areas.....shore up the right side of the line and pick up another quality back in case Hardesty doesn't pan out. This will give McCoy more time in the pocket or really open up the play action when we choose to pass. The mediocre receivers will have more time to get open.
If we're switching to the 4-3 on defense, I'm not sure where our strengths are or whether our weak areas are even serviceable. We need to go for BPA.
Just some rambling thoughts.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Nice post.
Building on strength is never a bad route.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses and over time you will win more often than you lose. DinD and YT make great points. I especially nod my head at DinD when he says we need to have a comparable D to the rest of our division. That is KEY!
Get in the game, bash their offense, have a good chance of scoring defensive points and give the ball back to YOUR offense!
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me defense ... a great scoring defense!
Which is exactly why I don't give a crap if AJ Green is sitting there at 6...We MUST TAKE...
Fairley
Dareus
Bowers
Quinn
Peterson
Amukamara
With Green a sure LOCK in the Top 5...Obviously TWO of these guys will be there...
One MUST be a Brown...
What about Adrian Clayborn, defensive end from Iowa at #6
get defensive line in the 2nd and 3rd
Just get me 1 Wr in the 4th Vincent Brown from Sd'st, I really like that guy, Just get him where ever you have to.
and Linebackers the rest of the way, maybe Ross Homan in the 5th,
I know he played for Ohio State, but when was the last time the Browns did anything from the 5th rd pick anyway.
Just 1 rec, , might be there in the 4th, He's a diamond, Maybe hes the next Brian Brennan, that doesn't happen every 20 years, Just 1 Receiver and you can have the rest of the draft for your stupid Defensive Holes.
But not a 1st round receiver, why overpay for something with no compliment.
( what EVER you do with the 1st round pick you have to get more than 1, to compliment that player, unless its a quarterback , that is just Philosophy So even though I Shout!! they need Wr, ... To go 1st rd Wr and noone else is bad philosophy.... if you only get 1, find a compliment to push the current roster players, not a #1 to supplant the current roster players and provide no compliment... it's bad philosophy...
Get 6 picks in the def, front 7, 1 Wr in the 3-4 rd range there are 8 who can help this team, ignore the RT O-L, make an offer to re sign Dqwell, because he's great, REAL great in 07' and 08,
What do you think of Claibourne?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me defense ... a great scoring defense!
Which is exactly why I don't give a crap if AJ Green is sitting there at 6...We MUST TAKE...
Fairley
Dareus
Bowers
Quinn
Peterson
Amukamara
With Green a sure LOCK in the Top 5...Obviously TWO of these guys will be there...
One MUST be a Brown...
I agree with one exception to your list above.
Fairley
Dareus
Bowers
Quinn
Peterson
Jordan 
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Quote:
What do you think of Claibourne?
He's ok...too inconsistent for #6 but I'd consider him in a trade down scenario.
I want no part of Quinn, Bowers or Fairley, all 3 are pretty much boom or bust and that's too much risk and projection involved with them...they are ALL 1 dimensional players at this point (how many DL, esp. pass rushing DEs that were picked in the top 15 must bust before people realize)....
This draft is very complicated for Heckert...2 of our biggest needs are DE (by far our biggest need) and FS...and both classes are rather meh, esp. the FS one...the DE-class is (once again) filled with a lot of boom or bust prospects....Dareus is solid but no pass rush monster at 43 DE but definately an every down DE and I'd be ok if it's him at 6...
I just hope we go BPA...and if that means we draft no DE or FS through 7 rounds, then so be it...fill those spots with bad to below AVG stop gap vets...that's better than wasting a top pick on a 1 dimensional DE prospect, wasting time and money and who barely becomes an AVG player at best
Right now...if Gabbert is gone I'd prefer a trade down scenario and then taking a guy like Jordan, who is a very polished and advanced prospect with maybe lower ceiling (a "sure" bet/safe pick so to say) or Clayborn (health concerns though) or J.Jones or DT Paea...but only if the price is right...if not take Green or one of the CBs (I think Amukamura would be a great FS btw)...don't know much about Aldon Smith to be honest...he is an early entry, has nice stats but seems like a lot of projection involved
Other prospects I like:
WR T.Young
WR Hankerson
WR Pettis
TE Stocker
RB D.Murray (lots of solid mid to late round RBs again)
TE/OT L.Smith (pure backup blocking TE or OT convert)
OLB Moch
MLB/OLB HErzlich
DT J.Jenkins
DT. M.Wilkerson
QB McElroy (perfect WCO fit, taller/heavier version of McCoy...nice mid to late round developmental backup QB)
G Watkins
RT Gilbert
Overall, not liking this class like the last 2...but it's early
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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I have no idea on Clayborn... Quote:
Fairley
Dareus
Bowers
Quinn
Peterson
Amukamara
The ONE scenario I can see playing out here is this...
A QB such as Gabbert goes earlier than 6...Then u have 2 of these guys available AND possibly Green...The beauty of this is that MOST of the Top 7 players are defensive guys...The other beauty is we MUST go BPA...
Personally I see Green and Peterson as the #1 and #2 BPA in this entire draft...If Green is there along with an Amakumura and a Quinn???,.,,You gotta take BPA...And to me that's GREEN...
If we get LUCKY and Green and Peterson are both there???...We strike it RICH by taking either...And I HIGHLY lean toward Peterson...You WON'T find a Corner of his caliber anywhere else in any draft...U CAN find a solid receiver for a WCO in all other parts of a draft...
So there ARE scenarios that I would let Green go...But they are VERY FEW...And Peterson and Dareus are the ONLY 2...Peterson FOR SURE...Dareus???...Questionable even tho I love this dude on our front 4...
Peterson LOCKS DOWN our secondary with Haden and Ward...Then u POUND the front 7...Any way it plays out we end up sittin' pretty...Even if Dareus is our consolation prize...
To ME it's Peterson/Dareus or Green...And I'm jumpin' through the wall... 
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
Just 1 rec, , might be there in the 4th, He's a diamond, Maybe hes the next Brian Brennan, that doesn't happen every 20 years, Just 1 Receiver and you can have the rest of the draft for your stupid Defensive Holes.
I loved Brian Brennan as a player, but we really need to shoot higher than a #3 reciever on this team. We already have too many of those. We need a true #1.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Quote:
What about Adrian Clayborn, defensive end from Iowa at #6
Clayborn is a top flight talent as a 43 or 34 DE. The knock on him isn't the talent, it's the work ethic. He can look very underwhelming and disappear for stretches. Of course he can also utterly dominate at times too. That said he's a first round talent but I wouldn't touch him at #6, especially not in a class as deep at DLine as this draft.
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get defensive line in the 2nd and 3rd
That or combination of DL/LB. Either way.
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Just get me 1 Wr in the 4th Vincent Brown from Sd'st, I really like that guy, Just get him where ever you have to.
This is the writeup of Brown from Scott Wright down at the Sr Bowl "San Diego St. WR Vincent Brown is not super fast and doesn’t get a lot of separation but he catches everything, runs polished routes and knows how to use his body to his advantage."
I'm not saying Brown isn't a good WR, he is. I'm not saying Brown won't be a good selection for an NFL team, he will. But what I AM saying is Brown would be a HORRIBLE pick for Cleveland. We already have 17 WR with good hands and run good routes but can't get any separation. No, what we NEED is a true #1 WR who is big and fast so they can actually stretch the defense(ability to run routes with good hands is implied in that they should be a #1). There are only 2 WR in this draft that meet that criteria : Green and Jones. If we don't get either of them at #6 we better empty the pocket books and strike gold in free agency, otherwise our offense is still going to be terrible. Just say no to these mid-round WR's. Either go get the guy who will make a difference or just punt fixing the offense and focus on building the D.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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We didn't "NEED" an offensive head coach, Holmgren wanted one, and one that shared his philosphy. Period. "NEED" wasn't a consideration.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I want no part of Quinn, Bowers or Fairley, all 3 are pretty much boom or bust and that's too much risk and projection involved with them...they are ALL 1 dimensional players at this point (how many DL, esp. pass rushing DEs that were picked in the top 15 must bust before people realize)....
There are too many "durrrr" moments in this post for me to count. We'll start here.
In Quinn, Bowers and Fairley you are talking about 3 of the consensus top 5 players in the draft. Not just by me. Not just by Kiper. Not just by Scott Wright. By EVERYONE. Have you even watched these guys play?? Sure, sometimes "everyone" can be wrong. Players bust for various reasons. Injuries, lack of motivation, bad fit scheme-wise etc etc. Prospecting is an inexact science due to the human element, but to just blow off 3 of the top 5 players in the country..AT A POSITION OF NEED FOR US no less, just because you are scared because they might bust? Just wow. I guess you never ever want to draft a QB in the 1st either. They have the potential to bust a ton. Ditto for WR, DL, LB, DB...you get the point. Maybe we should just always trade out of the first round and have 7 3rd round picks ala 2008? After all they are "safer" picks.
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This draft is very complicated for Heckert...2 of our biggest needs are DE (by far our biggest need) and FS
Oh wow. Our 2 biggest needs are DE (I agree) and Free Safety??? Hello WR called, we have NONE. Hello we're switching to the 43 and have exactly 1 DLineman and 1 LB. They might need some help. Hello, we have exactly 2 CB on our roster right now and one of them is in his 30s. Free safety....a need in a perfect world sure, but it's about #10 on the list right now. Elam actually played decent down the stretch and he's still young. I roll with him for another year and look to possibly upgrade next year if we can.
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...and both classes are rather meh, esp. the FS one...the DE-class is (once again) filled with a lot of boom or bust prospects....Dareus is solid but no pass rush monster at 43 DE but definately an every down DE and I'd be ok if it's him at 6...
FS I'll agree with you, but let me get this straight. 14 of the top 32 prospects are from the DLine (Fairley, Bowers, Dareus, Quinn, Kerrigan, Watt, Jordan, Clayborn, Paea, Aldon Smith, Heyward, Bailey, Nevis, Liuget) and 19 are in the top 64...but that class is "meh" to you? You do realize those are record #s right? As in, it's one of the most talented and deepest DL classes ever?
As for Dareus, he's a DT in the 43. He'd only play DE in the 34.
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Right now...if Gabbert is gone I'd prefer a trade down scenario and then taking a guy like Jordan, who is a very polished and advanced prospect with maybe lower ceiling
First, I'm not a fan of Gabbert. He's the best of the rest in a weak QB class this year now that Luck is gone IMO. But if you're looking to trade down you better not go back too far. Jordan is a sure fire top 15 pick and I have a sneaking suspicion he could end up in the top 10. Put it this way, if that's the guy you want, it's not a crazy reach to just take him at #6.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Right now...if Gabbert is gone I'd prefer a trade down scenario and then taking a guy like Jordan, who is a very polished and advanced prospect with maybe lower ceiling
First, I'm not a fan of Gabbert. He's the best of the rest in a weak QB class this year now that Luck is gone IMO. But if you're looking to trade down you better not go back too far. Jordan is a sure fire top 15 pick and I have a sneaking suspicion he could end up in the top 10. Put it this way, if that's the guy you want, it's not a crazy reach to just take him at #6.
You're being nice
Gabbert is a turd ball that just looks more shiny than other ones. I'd take Cam Newton over him easily.
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We didn't "NEED" an offensive head coach, Holmgren wanted one, and one that shared his philosphy. Period. "NEED" wasn't a consideration.
.... Irony is, indeed dead ....... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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if you're looking to trade down you better not go back too far. Jordan is a sure fire top 15 pick and I have a sneaking suspicion he could end up in the top 10. Put it this way, if that's the guy you want, it's not a crazy reach to just take him at #6.
the only question I would have about Jordan is if you want him to switch positions (3-4 DE to 4-3 DE) when we don't really have to with all the other possible DEs already coming from 4-3 defenses. But, I think I'd take the chance on Jordan (well before Quinn and his year off of school for sure).
#gmstrong
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unrelated to the draft but if we're going to talk about DEs, we might as well be looking at vernon gholston, given the jets saying today it's time to move on from him. he doesn't have an exceptional motor but at least he'll be going back to his natural 4-3 DE position and he'll have a chance to turn his rep around. sign the guy to a 1, 2, even 3 year deal on lower money and see if we can get a steal.
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Give me defense ... a great scoring defense!
Which is exactly why I don't give a crap if AJ Green is sitting there at 6...We MUST TAKE...
Fairley
Dareus
Bowers
Quinn
Peterson
Amukamara
With Green a sure LOCK in the Top 5...Obviously TWO of these guys will be there...
One MUST be a Brown...
The original post is rock solid but... I don't think that necessarily excludes Green from our equation. The one thing that the teams listed above have in common aside from a defense that keeps scoring low is an offense that, for the most part, is in the top half of the league in scoring.
Sure, defense is clearly what is driving these teams but you're not seeing teams anymore like the 2000 Ravens with a dominant defense but a putrid offense. Most of these teams are a combo of both with emphasis on defense. If we don't at least fix the offense to the point of respectability, we're never going to get anywhere. Green adds a playmaker that our offense lacks and not only gives us a #1, it improves our #2 and #3 WR by giving Massaquoi and Robiskie much more favorable matchups.
Will I be crying come draft day if Green is off the board and we're taking someone like Quinn, Peterson or Dareus? No. However, if we have a chance to draft a playmaker like Green with how shabby our offense is (and how we're trying to build an offensive system), I really think that should be our direction.
We're... we're good?
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Hall of Famer
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Personally I see Green and Peterson as the #1 and #2 BPA in this entire draft...If Green is there along with an Amakumura and a Quinn???,.,,You gotta take BPA...And to me that's GREEN...
Go Browns!!!
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Most wholeheartedly agree,...building the offense -- up to and including the point where it cannot be stopped -- is a defense.
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Most wholeheartedly agree,...building the offense -- up to and including the point where it cannot be stopped -- is a defense.
It helps the defense, but history shows that a great scoring defense has been the best way to win a championship over the course of the past decade. I broke it all down, with results and statistical scoring data.
Teams that score a lot "should" give up more points as teams have to resort to hurry up ofenses, and take chances while trying to keep up. However, most teams that win the Super Bowl have great scoring defenses, whether or not their offense is great.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm really hoping that someone takes Green before six, b/c I'm on the Robert Quinn bandwagon...
Green's contribution his first season would be less IMO than Robert Quinn's contribution. He would be a token for this defense for a long time. His quickness is needed. He has the same fight that I see in Clay Matthews in Green Bay.
My only hope is that either Julio Jones falls to the 2nd, which is unlikely... and Titus Young falls to the 3rd, which I think is also unlikely.. but with the draft you never know what GM's are thinking.
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I saw all that,...and appreciate the effort, but all it shows me is that eventually somebody scored more points than the other guy did, regardless of what teams got to or had winning records while achieving their defensive results.
As you have shown, no one discounts that defense is important, but you can always say your defense failed when your offense gets outscored, or, say your offense just didn't score enough and the other team's defense was awesome.
All I'm saying is, that having a great offense makes it easier to have a great defense. In my opinion, the converse does not work.
The Browns had a reasonably good defense this year, and the offense was putrid, somuchso, that it cost them the 4 or 5 games that would have put them in the playoffs rather than Baltimore or New York.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a solid offense isn't important. However, every year teams with great offenses sit home while teams with average offenses and great scoring defenses make the playoffs.
Having a top 10 scoring defense is a much bigger key to making the playoffs than having a top 10 scoring offense. The numbers over the past decade prove it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Steelers have a GREAT offense.. Packers have a GREAT offense.
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They both have very solid defenses too, and one of them is going to "not get the job done" because the other offense did.
Someone will fail. We don't have to prove that.
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Pittsburgh's "great" offense was 12th in scoring last year. Green Bay's was 10th. Oakland, Dallas, and Houston all had better scoring offenses than either Green Bay or Pittsburgh. Baltimore was 16th in scoring, and Chicago was 21st. Likerama Green Bay was 9th in total offense. Pittsburgh was 14th. Great? Maybe ..... pretty darn good. Teams like San Diego, and Houston, and the Giants had great offenses. Total Offense Linkerooskie Pittsburgh was #1 in scoring defense last year. #2? Green Bay. 3 and 4 were the losers in the Championship games .. Baltimore and Chicago. Defensive Linkeroo Offense might be important, but a strong scoring defense is vital.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why we "needed" an offensive coach
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