DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Offseason To- Do List: O-Line

By Dave Kolonich
OBR Browns Reporter
Posted Jan 19, 2011

While adding some offensive playmakers is a top priority this offseason, the offensive line needs some serious attention.


It’s now been several days since Pat Shurmur was announced as the fifth Browns’ head coach of the expansion era. So far during his brief tenure in Cleveland, we have learned that Shurmur’s football experience has been heavily slanted towards the offensive side of the ball. Of course, “offensive” is probably the best characterization to describe the collection of talent currently assembled among the offense. Therefore, it should come as no accident that Shurmur is being called on to not only lead the Browns as a team, but revive a dormant offensive attack.

Naturally, Shurmur has his work cut out for him. Besides assuming the play-calling duties in 2011, the new Browns’ head coach will have to perform a delicate balancing act, as he will install a West Coast offensive system within a unit that is built more for power football. Simply put, the 2010 Browns were built to run the ball and not much more.

This overall void of offensive playmakers is startling, as Peyton Hillis and Ben Watson proved to be the only consistent performers in 2010. Having said this, it’s obvious that any success Shurmur experiences in 2011 will be the result of some dramatic roster turnover in the coming months. And while the additions of new skill position players will rank among the more high-profile moves of the offseason, it’s worth asking a simple, yet often overlooked question:

What about the offensive line?

Offensive line play is not exactly the most sensational of NFL topics, but it is one that still defines the success of an offense and ultimately a team. It’s unfortunate that our current NFL universe is instead seemingly swept up in a ridiculous frenzy of fantasy stats. Perhaps it’s even more unfortunate that the Browns currently do not possess many players capable of boasting such numbers. Either way, any offensive improvement starts up front, which is why I was delighted that Shurmur mentioned the following during his introductory press conference.

”I think the running game is very important,” Shurmur said. “When you talk about offense obviously it starts up front you have to have a gritty, well coordinated group of offensive linemen that either block the run or protect the passer so I've learned that at a young age in this profession that without that you have no chance. From that standpoint the next most important guy would be the quarterback and how he operates, how he plays and how efficient he is. That being said, I think it's very important that we're able to run the football but in the NFL you have to be able to efficiently and explosively throw the ball and that's something that we're going to try and get done.”

It is a relief to hear Shurmur call upon his offensive lineman roots. While it’s clear that the Browns desperately need to add some playmakers, the state of the team’s offensive line entering 2011 also needs to be addressed.

Currently, the only constants among the line are Joe Thomas and Alex Mack. While Thomas struggled early in the season, he returned to his prior Pro Bowl form during the final two months. Possibly because he has set such a high standard over his first three years in the league, Thomas’ 2010 campaign was viewed as a bit of a disappointment. Of course, any criticism of Thomas needs to be balanced with a recognition of the names that came before him at left tackle.

Or, does anyone else want to revisit the Enoch DeMar era?

As for Mack, he is becoming one of the league’s best centers. Mack is a very efficient blocker and rarely gets manhandled by opposing defensive linemen. Once Mack engages with opposing linemen, he has shown some great driving strength even against some of the best defensive talent in the league. Some of his best performances of the season came against Pro Bowl level talent in Haloti Ngata, Vince Wilfork and Kyle Edwards.

However, after Thomas and Mack, the offensive line is mostly a patchwork effort, and one that demands some offseason attention.

Although he gets a tremendous amount of media and fan support, the play of veteran guard Eric Steinbach has declined. Steinbach is ineffective against bigger defensive tackles and has proven to be a liability in pass protection. While he still is effective on the move, the combination of his declining skills and hefty free agent contract could prove fatal heading into 2011.

The rest of the current collection of offensive linemen are a cavalcade of broken down veterans, including Floyd Womack, John St. Clair and Tony Pashos. While Womack is still an effective blocker, his body is not capable of surviving an entire season. The same could be said for Pashos, who could only manage parts of six games. And in the interests of not raising our collective blood pressure, let’s not review the legend of St. Clair. Instead, it’s interesting to think of how much better the Browns’ offense performed during Billy Yates’ three starts last season.

Anyway, throw in Shaun Lauvao, Steve Vallos and an occasional Paul McQuistan sighting and the offensive line suddenly jumps near the front of the Browns’ cluttered offseason to-do list.

Perhaps the biggest priority regarding the offensive line during the offseason is finding a new right tackle. For Shurmur’s West Coast offense to take root in 2011, the Browns desperately need to find a replacement for St. Clair. Although this new offense should feature more quick timing throws, the pass protection along the right side of the line needs to be upgraded. Based solely on the great pass rushers that the Browns’ divisional opponents possess, a new right tackle is nothing short of a solid investment for the future.

The same could be said for the revolving door at right guard. Based on the roster’s limitations over the past two seasons, it seemed that Womack was the best option at right tackle, rather than guard. However, injuries forced Womack inside, which probably wasn’t the best utilization of his skills. Of course, the hope is that Shaun Lauvao’s development will accelerate under Shurmur’s watch. If not, the running game will likely return to its predictable nature that occurred down the stretch of 2010.

However, an ideal situation would also see the arrival of a more physical left guard for the 2011 season. If Mike Holmgren’s playoff teams in Seattle can be used as a reference, a dynamic running game was sparked by the play of Steve Hutchinson. While it may be a tall order for the Browns to find a player of Hutchinson’s stature – circa 2005 – it’s worth some consideration.

Yet, despite Shurmur’s words, improving the offensive line may not prove to be the team’s top priority during the offseason. Simply put, these Browns are a team with multiple needs on both sides of the ball. The advent of a new offensive system, along with likely changes among the defense will put draft picks and free agent acquisitions which could prove costly.

http://cle.scout.com/2/1040755.html

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Instead, it’s interesting to think of how much better the Browns’ offense performed during Billy Yates’ three starts last season.

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I was mildly ticked when Yates got hurt. I know he's around 30 IIRC, but he can help us.

Which he was in a way; IIRC because our right side was often in a state of flux. Yates was solid in the early season, with Pashos banged up and St. Claire/Womack in the dubious mix.

Steinbach is ineffective against bigger defensive tackles and has proven to be a liability in pass protection. While he still is effective on the move, the combination of his declining skills and hefty free agent contract could prove fatal heading into 2011.

Couldn't agree more. I believe Lauvao was drafted to replace him at LG but now everything depends upon whom we hire as OL coach and the system they run. Zone blocking steiny is a different player.

I don't believe the OL is in as bad of shape as the author implies.

Here is why:

Thomas: will be a perennial pro-bowler and is relatively young.
Steinbach:Is making top 5 guard money, but is really "just" a solid player.
Mack: Solid starter
Yates: solid back-up at the very least and can play center too.
Womack: solid starter and under-rated swing man
Pashos: will be a solid starter if he can stay healthy

Right there are 6 solid linemen.

The problem is, we had a rash of injuries on the right side that made digging deeper into the roster necessary.

Tony Grossi critcized Mangini's love for St. Clair believing that St. Clair was given starting assignments before any injuries. I'm not sure I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. When Pashos came back, St. Clair was injured. Would Mangini have started St. Clair over Pashos anyway? Do I have my timing right on this?


Vallos: Spent most or all of the season inactive.Holmgren knew him from Seattle. Maybe he knows something we don't. I suspect that we may draft a C/G in a later round or pick-up another Yates off a scrap heap if there is a free agency period this off-season. That would push out Vallos, but again Vallos may be just fine as the # 9 OL. ??

Lauvao: In a sense the future of the team is in his hands. He has to develop into a solid starter at the very least. Had injury and off-field issues. Could ,and probably will ,come on like gangbusters next season.

St. Clair: In all fairness, he is and always was a back-up / marginal starter and nothing more. At age 33 his better days are behind him. Cue Bob Hope " Thanks for the Memories"

Right now, including Lauvao, we appear to have 7 solid O-linemen.The challenge will be to find a better back-up to Pashos and a future interior lineman. We need to get younger at OL.

My, ahem, solution;

Guard/ Center: Draft an interior lineman in a later/mid round. Sometimes decent interior linemen can be had in later rounds. This draftee just needs to be a better option than Vallos going forward to improve our depth and hopefully help in the future. We gave up our #7 for Wallace, but we have our 6th and Denver's 6th too. Maybe we can trade up into the late 5th?

Right Tackle: This is tricky. If we draft or trade for a starting RT he has to clearly be better than Pashos. That will probably cost a draft pick in the 4th round or higher. With the plethora of needs we have currently, I don't see that happening unless something falls into Heckert's lap. I believe it would be much easier to find a suitable veteran replacement for St. Clair. That may only cost a 6th or 6th and 7th. The need to replace St. Clair right now should also be tempered by the realization that we really need to get younger at OL.

I have made no secret for my man-love of Kevin Shaffer. Trade a 6th or 6th and 7th and get him back to replace St. Clair and draft a RT high in a couple years.If a RT comes in that is better than Pashos, putting Pashos on the bench, and Lauvao studs out we could possibly have one of the best, if not the best, OL in the league.

I hope they have a contingency plan for JT if/when he decides to seek greener pastures. That's my biggest concern with the Oline. Another year of double-digit losses and he's as good as gone.

That's one of my concerns as well.

Then I think about our record with him. He certainly doesn't make the difference between wins and losses because the losses sure keep piling up with him.

He's better than any of the LTs still playing by far and yet we are sitting at home.

So how much difference does a great LT make?

I'm struggling with that answer right now as I contemplate losing JT.

Doesnt matter how great your LT is if your RT gets beat on 9 out of 10 plays. The one play he didnt get beat on he was offsides.

We went from the leagues best OL to trainwreck status pretty quick. Best OL had us in 5 primetime games. So he really makes a difference but he cant make a difference by himself.

I think Steinbach gets too much love on the Brown's discussion boards.
He is making elite money, but in reality is maybe just average. He seems to be durable however.

There is no way we can kick him to the curb at this point, in fact that would be suicide. I think he has two or three more years on his contract. He should be kept until the contract expires and then assess his status. Even if Lauvao studs out we need to find a young interior OL in the next two years.

j/c

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/findplayer.asp?type=position&position=91

If you click the link it will take you to a site where you can click on the player's names and see his stats and you can compare them with other players who play that particular position.

Steiny's career stats are actually better then the highly regarded Alan Faneca's

those stats are.

They really don't make a valid comparison and many players are missing.

Who is missing?

My point is it seems pretty apparent that you don't need a top 5 LT to win in this league.

So I'm trying to figure out how to feel if JT decides to leave.

I really think it hinges on Colt. If he ends up being legit and JT sees some light at the end of the tunnel then I think he stays.

But if he leaves, should we throw a big pity party?

He's certainly a great player but he has not made the difference between wins and losses.

What's better...a great LT and a below average RT...or an average...top half of the league LT and RT on each side.

Not saying I don't want to keep JT or that he's not a great player but if he jets for a different team how upset should we be?

We won't let him leave.

How many in their prime left tackles hit free agency?

None.

Their teams don't let them. The first thing we would do is franchise him. Then try and get a long term deal done.

I'd be pretty upset in losing a player who's the best in the entire NFL at his position, but that's just me.

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How many in their prime left tackles hit free agency?

None.

Their teams don't let them. The first thing we would do is franchise him. Then try and get a long term deal done.

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How many prime left tackles have played on perennial 10-loss teams? The franchise tag is only going to work for one year, and that's if it even exists in the new CBA. The players hate the tag and are sure to push hard for it to be gone.

I'm upset with double digit losses every year, but that's just me.

Me too.

Stienbach was absolutely ABUSED vs the JAGS, JETS, FALCONS when big DTs lined over him. It was really hard to watch. I think try him out as a RT or the utility backup. At least if we play a team with huge DTs we move him. We need help on the Oline at guard and tackle.

Each year, you have to take the whole team into consideration.

I certainly have hoped the offensive line could have been fixed in PAST years, but this is not those years.

If you look at the STATE of the Browns on offense and defense, I Think the only Right Move is to AVOID adding to the offensive line.

This is the year that the BEST thing for the offense is to Avoid wasting any Valuable draft picks on the offensive line.

If you want to improve the offensive line, look to one of the free agents.

Wait, Wait, I know that seems ridiculous considering I was COMPLETLY on the other side of the argument in 2001-2004, but Things have changed, since the drafting of Mack, and Thomas, and the play of all the others, Including ST Clair who is not nearly as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

Look at it this way! If you should AVOID an investment ELSEWHERE where NEEEEDS are much more apparant, and invest where you are already solid, YOU WILL GET NO IMPROVEMENT.

No matter what, you are not going to keep 9 offensive linemen, even if the roster increases,
Even if they could draft a rookie Steve Hutchinson, they won't improve, if it means they don't have the opportunity to invest in a 2nd wide receiver, or a Ngata / Wolfork / Hampton / RaJi, clone.

The best move in 2011 is NO DRAFT PICKS ON O-LINE!

throwing off your back foot, two seconds to pass, blitzers screaming in from the right side yet we need not draft oline. Ok we need to add to the pile and get a free agent stud then because St. Clair IS that bad, and the fact he started all year showed how bad the right side was blocking.
yet we have many needs as well, a RB, a top wr, another safety, corner, dlineman, a lber with speed, I can keep talking. Yet if you want to help our QBs stay injury free, our rbs get holes and our wrs another second or two to get free, Oline help is a MUST.

You want to help the defense you can start by not having so many three and out offensive series and giving them a blow so the time of possession is not so lopsided.

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The best move in 2011 is NO DRAFT PICKS ON O-LINE!

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Are you high?

Without the offensive line, offensive skill players can't work. QB's can;t throw, WRs can;t get thrown to and RBs can;t run.

The offensive line is not our foremost need but its high on the list.

If we are going to invest somewhere FA, it's a better bet to get a WR that route as WRs by in large take a season or two to develop. Rookie offensive linemen will make a bigger impact out of the gate.

Prior to the hire of Jauron, I was of the belief that our first overall should be a WR...now I'm torn between that and a DE which we are void of moving into the 4-3.

If we can grab a WR in FA, I want to grab the best DE on the board in the first.

And oh yes, St. Clair really IS that bad.

since the drafting of Mack, and Thomas, and the play of all the others, Including ST Clair who is not nearly as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

This clown may very well be the worst RT we have ever had and boy that is saying something. Between penalties, just flat out getting beat over and over in the passing game or getting rolled in the run game, this guy has been bad in ever facet of the game.

Now as for the draft vs FA debate. Get talent wherever and whenever you find it. If we cant get a quality Free Agent RT in here then, you will need to find one either through a trade or through the draft.

A healthy Pashos is a pipe dream.

Yes, he was good when healthy. But the last two seasons he has combined to start four games.

If we could somehow get a guarantee from Pashos that he won't get hurt that would be great. Then we wouldn't have to draft a O-Linemen till later in the draft. But something tells me we won't be able to get that guarantee.

no logo and cfrs,

Pashos would be a VG back-up to replace St. Clair if a high round stud were taken.
That is my pipe dream.
But with all the other needs I'm not sure the FO will see it that way.

do you guys really think a mid-round pick will solidify that position?

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do you guys really think a mid-round pick will solidify that position?

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No. O-Linemen that are drafted in the 4th-7th round rarely start many games as rookies.

My main hope is that in his 2nd season Lauvao can develop into a league average starter.

And I don't think we should draft O-Line at our current 1st round pick as there are no players worth taking at that spot. ( From what I've seen at the one day of Senior Bowl and heard, from Mayock, I like Anthony Castonzo as a right tackle and John Moffitt as a guard. But not as 1st rounders.)

It WOULD be nice if Lauvao and Pashos both come around,...then you still have Billy, St Clair and Womack. I'd be looking at getting another C/G too, someone to groom as a backup & replace Pontbriand as that timeline closes (long term idea,...)