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Quote:
I'm worried that Vickers may go. Because, as we have seen, he has no hands.
I agree. He is a non fit in both the passing game and 1 back sets. I'd rather dump him and keep a player who brings some value to the team.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
I'm worried that Vickers may go. Because, as we have seen, he has no hands.
You say he can't catch, Clem says he can.. LOL it's funny about how different the view is on vickers.... 
#GMSTRONG
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JC general reply. Ok alot of opinions on we keep Hillis. I agree we keep him. nervous laugh.  But... Will he get a big payday and be happy/relax like Cribbs. IMO. Or will he get pissed and go into a shell? Harrison. Or will he break records here in Cleveland? IMHO, I think his role becomes greatly diminished. Which will ... him off. This will be sophomore year in Cleveland under another new coach with a whole new scheme. We saw how that went in Denver. I mentioned being concerned about not seeing vickers much in the last 7 games of the season. IMO it showed in Hillis' game when Vickers was not in the backfiled with him. Something is going to have to give in the run game IMO. Call me crazy now. But I have a bad feeling. If we do not get "at least one" legitimate threat to score on every play at receiver things will stay exactly the same. But minus either Hillis, Vickers, Hardesty or maybe Hardesty will never even get a chance here. If we lose any of these guys it is going to suck big time. Wow! Sorry OP i did not think this post would garner this much attention. Good sunny interview. I did not mention that in my first reply. 
Einstein could not even fathom the mathematical improbabilities of the Browns woes.
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j/c in regards to Vickers
The only route Vickers has ever run with the Cleveland Browns is a flat. That's it.
If I'm a head coach, I take a good hard look at Vickers and realize I have a heck of a talent at the position, and I get my position coaches to work with Vickers catching the ball. He caught the ball 20+ times a year in college. He can do it. He just has to get back into that groove and mentality.
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Quote:
Hillis is a perfect WCO RB. He catches the ball, with his hands, better than any of our WRs do. He can block and he can run.
Frankly, I am excited to see what would happen if Hardesty returns to 100% health and we line the 2 of them up in the same backfield. They can both block, they can both run, and they can both catch.
I do hope that we can find a role for Vickers. I love lining him up in front of Hillis at the goal line and watching people get blown up.
This is exactly the kind of thing that excites me. A 2 back set with Hillis and Hardesty (or whoever the healthy option is) in our backfield. Going back to the days of Craig and Rathman or what the Packers did under Holmgren with Edgar Bennet and Dorsey Levens. 2 options in the backfield that are both a threat to touch the ball.
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Nice post. vickers blocks like a beast: either that is important enough to keep him or not: just ask hillis or the QBs in an empty backfield with a turnstiles at RT whether a top FB in protection is important. I agree with your post once Vickers was used less then Hillis took a beating and was much less effective doen the stretch.
I am less in the automatic I endorse everything holmgren does. You keep your valuable players and build on them but first you must have the acumen for spotting them. Like the stupid trade of Harrison for the spent journeyman Mike Bell...or saying this team did not need veteran help at WR, uh huh. And How jake was a great signing. But no opinion is perfect, I railed at the Brady Quinn for a ham Sandwich hillis...that was a HERO sandwich and I am so glad i was soooo wrong. I vote for MORE Vickers. Block first. leave him in most of the time as Both a QB and a RB blocker and then peel off to catch passes.
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Hillis is a pretty good runningback , and Cribbs is an excellent returner.
But How will the 2011 running back corps compare to 1994 when the Browns last won a playoff game?
LeRoy Hoard, Tommy Vardell, and Eric Metcalf.
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Well ... in 1994 we ran for 1657 yards, 12 TDs and a 3.7 yard/carry average.
Last year we ran for 1646 yards, 13 Tds and a 4.0 yard/carry average.
So last year was actually better as far as running the ball than in 1994.
Our #1 ranked scoring defense carries us in 1994. We only allowed 204 points in 1994.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Seventeen years since the Browns have won a playoff,...I left military service longer ago than then.  Had never thought about it that way before. This thing really had gotten abysmal, hadn't it. Hopefully Hillis can remain part of The Big Fix.
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Yes it has.
It also shows how important, even dating back to that timeframe, a great scoring defense is to making the playoffs. I brought it up with regard to the past decade or so ...... but given that our last team to win a playoff game was a top ranked defensive scoring team ...... it just reinforces the importance of a great scoring defense.
That 1994 team didn't give up 30 points to anyone defensively.
Our 2010 team only allowed 1 team to score 30 or above, and that was the final game of the season. We were the only team going into the final week of the season that hadn't given up 30 or more. I am still convinced that the team knew about the coaching change ..... and that's why they came out flat like they did.
The 1994 team was #1 in scoring defense.
Last year's team was #14 in scoring defense.
The top 8 teams in scoring defense all made the playoffs, and 7 of them made the 2nd round.
Man ..... we were so close last year to winning a lot of games .... and we had the defense to build, and go forward with by just adding a player or 2 .....
I hope we made the right decision. I really hope we did, because I think we were on the right track ..... and now w'e're changing tracks, even for that defense that was so close in an area so vital for winning, and being a playoff team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm worried that Vickers may go. Because, as we have seen, he has no hands.
You say he can't catch, Clem says he can.. LOL it's funny about how different the view is on vickers....
He clanged a few this year, but those drops were accentuated by the few number of touches he got.
I distinctly remember him picking one up off his shoelaces (...one of DA's 'touch passes) in the flat and vaulting into the endzone a few years back. Can't recall exact numbers, but I remember seeing him catch more than he dropped that year.
He's not as automatic as Hillis, but he is servicable in that capcity.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm worried that Vickers may go. Because, as we have seen, he has no hands.
You say he can't catch, Clem says he can.. LOL it's funny about how different the view is on vickers....
He clanged a few this year, but those drops were accentuated by the few number of touches he got.
I distinctly remember him picking one up off his shoelaces (...one of DA's 'touch passes) in the flat and vaulting into the endzone a few years back. Can't recall exact numbers, but I remember seeing him catch more than he dropped that year.
He's not as automatic as Hillis, but he is servicable in that capcity.
Oh I understand,,, I don't know which of you is correct, it doesn't matter either way to me, but I just find it funny that we all see the same games and one persons view is he CAN catch and the others is, he CAN'T catch.. I just find it funny is all.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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understood.
4 eyes/ 2 differing opinions.
seems to happen a lot around here.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm worried that Vickers may go. Because, as we have seen, he has no hands.
You say he can't catch, Clem says he can.. LOL it's funny about how different the view is on vickers....
He clanged a few this year, but those drops were accentuated by the few number of touches he got.
I distinctly remember him picking one up off his shoelaces (...one of DA's 'touch passes) in the flat and vaulting into the endzone a few years back. Can't recall exact numbers, but I remember seeing him catch more than he dropped that year.
He's not as automatic as Hillis, but he is servicable in that capcity.
I know a lot of you like Vickers, and for what he did he was excellent.
As it stands, i just don't see a place on the team for him unless you want to dump Hillis or Hardesty.
All three are fairly slow, lumbering players. Seems to me we need to add some quicks and a player who isn't going to all of a sudden become good at catching the ball.
It doesn't make much sense to keep a guy who might help on a couple of plays a game....at least not a back.
Like I have said, if we want or need to bring in a big guy to help smash a hole, we have back-up guards, nose tackles, and D linemen who could do a good enough job.
I saw BJ Raji do it last week.
I am sure we can find someone to do the same if the situation dictates.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Like I have said, if we want or need to bring in a big guy to help smash a hole, we have back-up guards, nose tackles, and D linemen who could do a good enough job.....I saw BJ Raji do it last week....I am sure we can find someone to do the same if the situation dictates.
I love Vickers too, but this observation is very astute. Also, something a creative OCoordinator would do (me,...for instance) is decoy this type of player into making a defense think it knows where the play is going.
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Quote:
All three are fairly slow, lumbering players.
I don't think Hillis or Hardesty is slow. Although we don't know much about Hardesty at this point.
Hillis, when in the open field, burned a number of defenders this year.
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For what it's worth, everything I read on Hardesty had him between 4.45 and 4.49 in the 40 yard dash ...
Cribbs ran a 4.45 and a 4.47 before he was drafted, Jerome harrison had a 4.47 and 4.49, and Hillis ran a 4.57 and a 4.58 ... good for comparing even though it only accounts for straight line track speed, but if those stats are accurate then you have a guy who weighs 20 to 25 pounds more than harrison running the same speed....?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Quote:
Quote:
All three are fairly slow, lumbering players.
I don't think Hillis or Hardesty is slow. Although we don't know much about Hardesty at this point.
Hillis, when in the open field, burned a number of defenders this year.
Come on man....Hillis isn't a burner....can we agree on that??
Don't worry about the term slow for crying out loud.
Can we have a serious discussion here without bickering over various terms used?
No, Hillis isn't slow. He could beat you and I in most any race, be it a dash or a potato sack race.
The point is he isn't fast as compared to many of the other backs in the league.
Is that a fair statement?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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It is a fair statement, but not entirely appropos to gametime situations. Where someone like Harrison can juke to make the first defender miss, Hillis just stiff-arms or steamrolls him , while barely slowing down. So you are right as far as 40 times are concerned, 'Peen, but how many times have combine stats misled, in terms of gametime play? I know what my eyes tell me, and Hillis is the real deal as far as football players are concerned. Yards after contact will tell you much of what you need to know in terms of RB production. Harrison may have been quick, but I saw him go down on first contact way too often to be a feature back. Can we agree on that, as well? ____________________________________ Anyway, to further the thread's subject, here's a new article which supports what I've been thinking: Peyton Hillis Is a Perfect Fit for the West Coast Offense
By Kristopher Knox (Browns Featured Columnist) on January 25, 2011
When team president Mike Holmgren selected Pat Shurmur to be the next head coach of the Cleveland Browns, it became all but a certainty that the Browns will make the switch to a variation of the West Coast offense in 2011.
While the implementation of the WCO is expected to boost the production of quarterback Colt McCoy and the struggling Browns offense, exactly where does it leave Browns running back and offensive MVP Peyton Hillis?
The short answer is that is leaves Hillis in a very promising position.
In 2010, Peyton Hillis was asked to be the featured back for the first time since his high school days and he responded by rushing for 1,177 yards, 11 touchdowns and a respectable 4.4 YPC average.
His bruising, dominating running style and ability to plow through the middle of the defense allowed the Browns offense to compete, even when the rest of the offense struggled to find any sort of rhythm. Not bad for an under-the-radar acquisition from Denver.
However, Hillis is far from just another Reuben Droughns. While Hillis is at home pushing his way up the middle, his quickness and agility allow him to also be effective running to the outside. Add in a devastating stiff-arm, a nifty spin move and one heck of a hurdle, and his running style is a far cry from the "three yards and a cloud of dust" seen by most backs of his stature.
---online poll section: feel free to skip---
Who Should Benefit Most From The Implementation Of The WCO?
QB Colt McCoy
RB Peyton Hillis
TEs Ben Watson and Evan Moore
All Receivers
The entire offense
The defense. Give these guys a chance to rest, already!
Submit Vote vote to see results Who Should Benefit Most From The Implementation Of The WCO?QB Colt McCoy31.4%RB Peyton Hillis7.1%TEs Ben Watson and Evan Moore3.2%All Receivers3.2%The entire offense37.1%The defense. Give these guys a chance to rest, already!18.0%Total votes: 283
--- end of poll section---
Of course, the WCO features a pass-first mentality, often utilizing short, rhythmic passes in lieu of the run.
Well, Hillis shouldn't have much difficulty making the adjustment. One of Hillis' most underrated attributes is his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield. Hillis is a natural receiver and has the uncanny ability to pluck the ball out of mid-air, often making it look easy as he catches the ball on the run.
Not only is Hillis a viable target out of the backfield, but his soft hands, vision and ability to adjust to the ball allow him to be a downfield threat as well.
In 2010, Hillis amassed 477 receiving yards on an astonishing 61 receptions.
Let that sink in for a second. A 6'1", 240 lb. power back managed to catch 61 passes in Brian Daboll's conservative run-based offense. Just imagine what Hillis could do as a pass catcher in Shurmur's variation of the WCO.
Hillis is also a very versatile player and should easily adapt to the offensive schemes implemented in 2011. At the University of Arkansas, Hillis spent time at multiple positions including fullback, halfback, tight end, slot receiver and on special teams as a punt and kick returner. Shurmur should have little trouble finding ways to get the football into Hillis' hands.
Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images In order to get a good idea of the type of production Shurmur can get out of Hillis, one only need look to the last running back that Shurmur coached, Steven Jackson.
In two seasons as the offensive coordinator of the St. Louis Rams, Shurmur coached Jackson to two very productive seasons. Between 2009 and 2010, Jackson rushed for 2,657 yards and 10 touchdowns. He also caught 97 passes for 705 yards.
In fact, Hillis and Jackson are very similar players, both in size and ability. Jackson is exactly one inch taller and four pounds lighter than Hillis and both are very versatile backs who combine the power, quickness and receiving ability needed to thrive in the WCO. Shurmur should feel right at home coaching Hillis to his own productive seasons.
While there is no question that there will be changes to be made in order to make the WCO work in Cleveland, at least one player should have no trouble finding a place in the new system.
Pat Shurmur inherits a lot of question marks on offense, but he also inherits a running back seemingly custom made for the West Coast offense. At least it's a good start.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/58410...t-coast-offense
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Yeah, maybe this is nitpicking, as you said, but I wouldn't call Hillis slow. No, he's not going to torch a DB off the line, but he's quick and athletic enough to line up and catch passes (did it quite a few times this year).
I just consider Hillis a little more versatile than some give him credit. I don't think he's a one-trick pony. He can do more than plow straight ahead.
Sorry if I'm nitpicking...
Also, about Raji being used as a lead blocker. Wasn't their fullback in on that play as well?
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Quote:
Like I have said, if we want or need to bring in a big guy to help smash a hole, we have back-up guards, nose tackles, and D linemen who could do a good enough job.
I saw BJ Raji do it last week.
I've heard all this before and while you do see it once in a blue moon there's no way this approach is ever something that's going to be used often enough to replace a dominating FB in an offense that makes good use of one.
Much of Hillis's success was running behind the Vickers blasting the way. That is a well known fact. We all saw how Hillis' effectiveness fell off when Vickers was hurt and not playing before Hillis was hurt and ineffective on his own. There's never going to be a "big guy" in the way of a guard, nose tackle or lineman who will fill that FB role as he's been used.
Of course, if Shurmur's offensive is not dependent on the role of a blocking FB then Vickers is not a huge loss. But there's a reason a guard is a guard, a NT is a NT and a lineman is a lineman. Likewise, there is a reason a FB is a FB. They are not replaced simply by throwing a big guy in there three or four times a season. That's about all you ever see that done. It's almost a novelty, a trick play.
The most notable of those guys was Refridgerator Perry. In his 11 years he had 8 carries for 5 yards for 2 TD and 2 fumbles. link I think it would be overly generous to say he may have played another 15 plays as a blocker in his 11 seasons.
Vickers' fate lies in Shurmur's role for a FB and in a related way to Hilils' role as a RB. He he plans a lot of running Hillis between tackles then he'd better have that FB leading the way. If Hillis' role will be diminished in that type of running play but used increasingly in other ways then that can work too.
#gmstrong
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'Peen:
You know I've dug and respected you for years, but I just gotta say this, Dawg to Dawg:
Read ddubia's post again... and when you're done, read it one more time.
You took your 'diminished importance of the blocking FB' stance early in the season, when 47's name came up. Many of us tried to talk some sense into you, but Dawg... you weren't having any of it.
I implore you to take notice of ddub's post... he speaks much wisdom on this matter. As further weight to the argument, I'll add my own rhetorical question:
"If your assertion is true, why does the NFL STILL sport a player at "blocking FB" on every team in the league?"
I mean, really.... if what you assert is actually true, wouldn't every team do away with their blocking FB/emergency RB, and simply go with a widebody Guard leading rollouts for their featured RB's?
Here's my point: FB's (especially the ones who are at 47's level) are specialists, much like Ryan Pontbriand. They do unheralded jobs on the team, but that doesn't diminish their importance to the team.
I said it several years ago, regarding Jamaal Lewis' +1K year, and I'll say it again, regarding Hillis' 2010 campaign: Without Lawrence Vickers, Peyton Hillis' rushing stats are reduced by at least 1/3.
And I'm telling you, My Dawg... no 'jobbed-out Lineman' is gonna open up Hillis for those extra yards beyond the LOS like a FB of Lawrence Vickers' ability. It will never happen. Ever. Not for an entire season.
LV can be no easier replaced than can Ryan Pontbriand, Joe Thomas or Reggie Hodges. As a coach, I'm not sticking Alex Mack in to snap on punts and FG's, any more than I'm sticking Hillis or Shaun Rogers in on kick returns.
Let the specialists do what they do... there are 47 spots open on game day... and there's room for each to do their part. Don't think (for a minute) that Pork Chop Womack can do Vickers' job game after game.
That's all I'm sayin'.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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I agree with you we need to get some real speed in our backfield (maybe Hardesty has it). Someone like Reggie Bush or Jamal Charles..etc We have the thunder part of the combo we need the lightning. A guy who can come in and run 10 plays a game as a change of pace. However, I don't think we need to cut Vickers. Gernally football teams carry 3 RBs and 1 FB.
RB:
Hillis
Hardesty
Speed guy
FB
Vickers
That would be pretty normal for most teams. For a speed guy I hope New Orleans cuts Reggie Bush and we go after him. He is not a 25 carry a game guy but he would be an excellent change of pace back and we could line him up in the slot. As for the draft keep an eye out for Noel Devine or Derrick Locke.
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I read his post, and thanks for the words.
I guess we will find out how important Vickers is to our future plans.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Can we agree on that, as well?
Sure we can. i have never said anything negative about Hillis. Everything in your posted article is something i have been saying. The guy is going to do well in a NCO.
( I don't like the west coast, I am calling it the north coast offense if y'all don't mind)
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Brilliant post Clem and that's no slam against Peen. I really hope VIckers can hang around next year. He made lot's of nice blocks for HIllis. Was it the Jax game where he blew up the guy on the edge to spring Hillis for a TD? I can't remember which game it was but one helluva block.  There was a FB in on that Raji play last week.
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Quote:
"If your assertion is true, why does the NFL STILL sport a player at "blocking FB" on every team in the league?"
I mean, really.... if what you assert is actually true, wouldn't every team do away with their blocking FB/emergency RB, and simply go with a widebody Guard leading rollouts for their featured RB's?
Here's my point: FB's (especially the ones who are at 47's level) are specialists, much like Ryan Pontbriand. They do unheralded jobs on the team, but that doesn't diminish their importance to the team.
Not sure why the importance of Vickers is an issue?
The Rams use a FB in their offense, primarily as a blocker. In 2009 the Rams signed free agent FB Mike Karney (Saints) to a 3 yr contract.
The hardest yds to get are those 3-1 or 4-1 especially in the red zone.
Pass catching...Vickers had 1 less pass reception than the Rams FB did last season.
I see no way Vickers goes anywhere unless the Browns have a better option at FB.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Quote:
I don't like the west coast, I am calling it the north coast offense if y'all don't mind
I like it!
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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