Well, if the Packers defense doesn't score a TD and force 3 turnovers, they don't win.
Their offense did a nice job against Pittsburgh, but their long passing game was the most impressive part. They hit a couple of nice seam passes to the TE and some deep passes for 2 of the TDs.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I couldn't disagree more. I just texted 2 of my good friends who are Browns fans and said "if this is the offense Holmgren wants to implement here...against Baltimore and Pitt? We're SCREWED."
Reasons?
1) Aaron Rodgers >>> Colt "Charlie Frye" McCoy. You expect Colt to make those perfect throws on the 25 yard seam routes? I've got some land I can sell you cheap. 2) GB receivers >>> any WR on our roster. If your goal is to use the pass to "spread out" a D such as Pitt/Balt in the fashion GB did you need 3/4/5 legit NFL WR who can separate, run routes and catch. We have 0. 3) GB inability to run the ball, control the clock and capitalize in the red zone caused them to not be able to put that game away...to the point that Pitt wins if they don't run a Chinese Fire Drill for a 2 minute offense at the end. 4) GB's offense struggled against that Pitt defense. Take away their pick 6 and 3 total TO's and Pitt wins that game. Not only do they win it, they win it HANDILY....and that's WITH Aaron Rodgers.
Now imagine a game without 3 forced TO's and Colt McCoy as your QB with our WR corps. It's not a pretty thought.
No sir, I think this throws the debate wide open. Not that it matters because we're running it regardless of how much any of us like or dislike it. We're screwed regardless.
Last edited by GraffZ06; 02/06/1111:48 PM.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
Yes you can, but like any system you also need the talent. It's not the system that's skewed vs our Division. It's the lack of talent on both sides of the ball.
THIS!! OMG.. what team isn't going to struggle just a LITTLE against the Steelers.. They are one of the top teams in the league, and reason why they are in the SuperBowl...
This team won't be there until they are talented on both sides of the ball.. but if I had to pick a side to perfect first, it would be offense. Get AJ Green, and a RT and BOOM... we moving those chains a lot more.
I have to wonder just how enthusiastically you would endorse Green if he wasn't a Georgia player.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I am certainly not a Colt cheerleader. But come on....Chuck? Colt has some stones you can see that. All this WCO stuff is moot, we all know that, but Colt as a media hyped Chuck, not close man. You already know that though.
Quote: I have to wonder just how enthusiastically you would endorse Green if he wasn't a Georgia player.
I'm not sure you've paid attention to Turk after Green. He's said several times he has concerns about Green. He's also said that he thinks Julio Jones will be the better player.
I am certainly not a Colt cheerleader. But come on....Chuck? Colt has some stones you can see that. All this WCO stuff is moot, we all know that, but Colt as a media hyped Chuck, not close man. You already know that though.
Hey, put me in the camp when it comes to McCoy. It would be a coup if we got our franchise QB as an after thought from the 3rd round who magically gained arm strength and flourished in the WCO after being forced to play due to TWO QB injuries. I really honestly hope he IS that guy. I just don't believe it. He had a good couple games but so do a lot of people. His whole body of work looked eerily similar to another once fondly-thought-of 3rd round QB around here.
Charlie's rookie year he played 7 games so I think it's fair to compare his 7 games with Colt's final 7 games of HIS rookie year. Here you go:
Frye: 98-164, 1002 yds, 4 TD, 5 INT McCoy : 112-189, 1295 yds, 5 TD, 7 INT
Completion Pct : Frye - 59.8%, McCoy - 59.3% Virtually Identical Yds Per Attempt : Frye - 6.11, McCoy - 6.85 Advantage Colt TD Pct : Frye - 2.44%, McCoy - 2.65% Advantage Colt but essentially same INT Pct : Frye - 3.05%, McCoy - 3.70% Advantage Charlie QB Rating : Frye - 72.8 , McCoy - 73.4 Uh Oh. Looks pretty darn similar to me!
And for those who say Charlie had way better weapons than Colt, sure he did, but Colt also has 10 times the offensive line Charlie had...so in my book the offensive talent around them is a wash.
So let's all hope and pray they follow two completely different career paths, but the comparisons based on a half year sample size from each of their rookie years are certainly valid.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
Quote: Graf and YTown can't contain their excitement over our 10 wins the last two years.
Hah Rish, certainly not excitement over 5 wins. But I did think we were on the right path and sure to win >5 next year and to continue to build. That's not so much the case anymore.
Quote: But if you average 5 wins a year that is better than 2 I guess.
LOL bingo! And it's not even a dislike of Shurmur either. If he's given ~5 years to build this thing right he very well could be an excellent coach who could take us to the promised land. The problem is we're entirely devoid of talent in the area he's about to stress on the offensive side of the ball...and we're completely overhauling the defense. That, to me at least, equals a rock bottom rebuild and about 2 wins next year, or maybe we get some lucky bounces and stay healthy and maybe go 4-12. Then hopefully we build on that and win anywhere from 4-6 in 2012.
Anybody want to wager whether Shurmur gets to finish that 5 year rebuild if after his first 2 years he has <= 10 wins? Not only will he be gone, Holmgren will most likely be out the door with him. Then we get to do this all over again! Tis ok though, we're PLENTY used to it by now. Around and around and around and around and ......
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
Quote: Graf and YTown can't contain their excitement over our 10 wins the last two years.
But if you average 5 wins a year that is better than 2 I guess.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I couldn't disagree more. I just texted 2 of my good friends who are Browns fans and said "if this is the offense Holmgren wants to implement here...against Baltimore and Pitt? We're SCREWED."
Reasons?
1) Aaron Rodgers >>> Colt "Charlie Frye" McCoy. You expect Colt to make those perfect throws on the 25 yard seam routes? I've got some land I can sell you cheap. 2) GB receivers >>> any WR on our roster. If your goal is to use the pass to "spread out" a D such as Pitt/Balt in the fashion GB did you need 3/4/5 legit NFL WR who can separate, run routes and catch. We have 0. 3) GB inability to run the ball, control the clock and capitalize in the red zone caused them to not be able to put that game away...to the point that Pitt wins if they don't run a Chinese Fire Drill for a 2 minute offense at the end. 4) GB's offense struggled against that Pitt defense. Take away their pick 6 and 3 total TO's and Pitt wins that game. Not only do they win it, they win it HANDILY....and that's WITH Aaron Rodgers.
Now imagine a game without 3 forced TO's and Colt McCoy as your QB with our WR corps. It's not a pretty thought.
No sir, I think this throws the debate wide open. Not that it matters because we're running it regardless of how much any of us like or dislike it. We're screwed regardless.
Ahh come on man... it really goes without saying, you need the horses. We don't have them all yet, so No, it's not settled if WE can beat the Steelers.
But the question was, can a WCO team win against the AFC North Defenses.. the answer is YES IT CAN.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: 1) Aaron Rodgers >>> Colt "Charlie Frye" McCoy. You expect Colt to make those perfect throws on the 25 yard seam routes? I've got some land I can sell you cheap.
graff...You want to compare rookie Colt McCoy to Aaron Rogers, 6 yr Pro?
The Browns are not going to the Super Bowl in Shurmur's first year as HC...trying to compare where the Browns are "now" to where the Packers are in the Mike McCarthy's 5th season as HC and Aaron Rogers' 6th season with the Packers is hardly an honest comparison.
Fans will have to have some patients before we start comparing the Browns to the Super Bowl Champions.
Quote: Fans will have to have some patients ......
well, we all know that won't happen
Does that mean we all have to get medical degrees of some sort.....?
Usually spelling doesn't get to me that badly .... but that one's always funny in its misuse.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I have to wonder just how enthusiastically you would endorse Green if he wasn't a Georgia player.
He's actually said he prefers Julio Jones over Green if I'm not mistaken.
And he has concerns about Green.
thank u.
Fair enough. I apologize then. It just seems like every time a Georgia player's name comes up that you homer him as badly as Buckeye fans are accused of doing.
The Packers, if they are our role model, have 2 WRs taken in the 2nd round. (Jennings and Nelson) They have Donald Driver, who was a 7th round pick. Brett Swain was also a 7th rounder. James Jones was a 3rd rounder.
Their front 7 on defense is loaded with 1st round picks. (especially when the guys on IR are takent into account)
We'll see ... but I would guess that if we follow the Packers model, we go defense in the 1st round.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I also want to point out that you need to play to your strengths regardless of a base offense in order to make the system yours. I think it was right before the final drive, the packers' stat line was 37 passes, 9 runs ... pretty crazy.
Now I don't disagree with them coming back and trying to throw on first down a lot to keep the Steelers off balance, but if this was our version it probably would have been something more like 25-30 passes (maybe 5 of which dumpoffs to Hillis / Hardesty / whoever or 3rd down back is?) and then 20 to 25 runs (I would love the combo of 15 to 18 with Hillis and then maybe 10 to our backup ...)
If anyone thinks the west coast won't work because Colt McCoy can't single handedly put our team on his back then that's not fair... regardless of our offensive philosophy. But with a little creativity then I could see a variation of this working for us. Not making us favorites, but not having us raising the white flag on opening day ..
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
Quote: Fair enough. I apologize then. It just seems like every time a Georgia player's name comes up that you homer him as badly as Buckeye fans are accused of doing.
Two ways to look at it when a fan on here pimps a certain colleges players.. Either they just like pimping a guy from thier school or they pimp him because they faithfully watch that team more than others and have found value in that player....
I prefer to think it's the latter. So instead of it being a negative, I like to think of it as they have seen the player a lot and should know what they are talking about.
The blindness really only creeps in when comparing players from other schools...
I just don't find it all that bad when people pimp players from certain schools.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Those stats are pretty close between Colt and Charlie, but Frye never had the poise in the pocket, ball skills or leadership qualities Colt showed last season imo.
Quote: Ahh come on man... it really goes without saying, you need the horses. We don't have them all yet, so No, it's not settled if WE can beat the Steelers.
Daman, I've got a two part answer for you sir. Numbers 1 and 2 on my list did indeed have to do with us not having the "horses" GB has. The problem is, the scheme won't be successful unless we DO have those horses and it's going to take 3/4/5 years to get that talent level where we need it.
You do realize this is Cleveland right? We expect winners, and we expect them yesterday. We've been "tortured" by bad teams and heartbreak for so long that the fan base as a whole isn't interested in progress. They aren't interested in the process. Just win. They think they "deserve" it. I mean I've already seen/heard MULTIPLE people saying they expect no worse than 500 next year for the Browns and anything less is a failure. Talk about over blown expectations? The organization just took 14 steps backwards in the rebuild (maybe for better, maybe for worse I'm not trying to debate that) but it DID in hiring a rookie HC, entirely switching the focus of our offense to the one area we have the least talent in the entire NFL...oh and then just decided to overhaul the entire defense all at once to boot. No this process is going to take time, on the order of multiple years, and Cleveland has no interest in waiting that long.
So, you're right we don't have the horses now, but we're not going to have all the horses in place in 2 years either...so prepare yourself for the inevitable.
Quote: But the question was, can a WCO team win against the AFC North Defenses.. the answer is YES IT CAN.
Well sure they CAN. I never looked at it as a question of "can". Any team with any scheme CAN beat any other team on any given day. I think the real question is can a WCO team CONSISTENTLY win on a regular basis against AFCN defenses. This is where points 3 and 4 from my list come in.
Yes, GB won. But as good as Rodgers is and as good as their WR are, Pitt still could have won that game if they remotely executed in their 2 minute drill (which they normally do). And that was WITH a pick 6 and 2 other uncharacteristic Pitt TO's that led directly to easy GB points.
Look, if GB could have run the ball and controlled the clock once Pitt had those TO's and GB got the big lead? It would have been ballgame over at halftime. If GB could do ANYTHING besides running corner routes to their WR inside the 10 yard line, they score a TD instead of a FG and Pitt doesn't have a chance to win it at the end, but they couldn't.
The fact is their inabilities and struggles on offense, specifically running the ball, allowed Pitt right back into the game to the point that if it weren't for those 3 big Pitt TO's I fully believe Pitt wins it.
So what that tells me is, no you can't EXPECT to force Pitt into 3 TO's including a pick 6. So no you can't expect to consistently beat that Pitt team (EVEN WITH ALL OF GB'S TALENT!) on a consistent basis. You line those 2 teams up and play 10 games in a row? I bet the house Pitt wins 7 of them...it just so happens you only get 1 shot in the SB and last night was one of GB's 3 out of 10.
I have no idea how you can look at that game though and feel good about the two things I just said. "Well, if we wait 5 years we might have the talent GB does....and THEN, we can hope to beat Pitt/Baltimore 30% of the time! Alright!"
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
True,...But I think there is something to be said for being a winner.
I remember reading a blog from Walter (walterfootball.com) After the Draft, basically he did not think we had a good Draft other then Haden and Lauvao. I don't know how one can judge a draft on paper, but he basically said Colt was not draft able material. He has since owned up to his mistaken beliefs and knows now that being a winner although not a guarantee in itself, has some merit.
I never put much into their thoughts and opinions as I have debated with them in the past about our differences regarding QB rankings. They have swung and missed in the past (Mattie Ice is 1 example). I wonder where Miami would be today had they taken him with the #1 pick in 07 like I said they should? But I am rambling again
Yes, GB won. But as good as Rodgers is and as good as their WR are, Pitt still could have won that game if they remotely executed in their 2 minute drill (which they normally do). And that was WITH a pick 6 and 2 other uncharacteristic Pitt TO's that led directly to easy GB points.
Look, if GB could have run the ball and controlled the clock once Pitt had those TO's and GB got the big lead? It would have been ballgame over at halftime. If GB could do ANYTHING besides running corner routes to their WR inside the 10 yard line, they score a TD instead of a FG and Pitt doesn't have a chance to win it at the end, but they couldn't.
The fact is their inabilities and struggles on offense, specifically running the ball, allowed Pitt right back into the game to the point that if it weren't for those 3 big Pitt TO's I fully believe Pitt wins it.
So what that tells me is, no you can't EXPECT to force Pitt into 3 TO's including a pick 6. So no you can't expect to consistently beat that Pitt team (EVEN WITH ALL OF GB'S TALENT!) on a consistent basis. You line those 2 teams up and play 10 games in a row? I bet the house Pitt wins 7 of them...it just so happens you only get 1 shot in the SB and last night was one of GB's 3 out of 10.
I have no idea how you can look at that game though and feel good about the two things I just said. "Well, if we wait 5 years we might have the talent GB does....and THEN, we can hope to beat Pitt/Baltimore 30% of the time! Alright!"
there are a lot of ifs in that ramble, so ill make my ifs without the long breath.
IF green bay had their starting rb they might have been able to put game away, but they didnt, so they passed 75 percent.
IF gb didnt lose 3 starters in the game. woodson and driver is a pretty big loss. they might have done better.
IF their "great wrs" ( i don't thing their wr are that great, especially wo driver) would have caught some of those passes the game would not have been close.
IF anyone else but black eyed peas pale at half time.
lot of ifs. green bay won pitt didnt. if pitt played better on offense they might have won. if green bay caught some easy catches they smoke em.
give me aj green or julio plus a fa wr with our bums robo, mo mass, stuckey and a good wco gameplan we might be able to hang w the big boys.
but my favorite IF
IF ben could have led them to a td at the end..... who really didnt think ben was gonna do it. i thought with all my heart he was gonna drive and win it, along with lose my fifty dollar bet against em
Quote: I couldn't disagree more. I just texted 2 of my good friends who are Browns fans and said "if this is the offense Holmgren wants to implement here...against Baltimore and Pitt? We're SCREWED."
Reasons?
1) Aaron Rodgers >>> Colt "Charlie Frye" McCoy. You expect Colt to make those perfect throws on the 25 yard seam routes? I've got some land I can sell you cheap. 2) GB receivers >>> any WR on our roster. If your goal is to use the pass to "spread out" a D such as Pitt/Balt in the fashion GB did you need 3/4/5 legit NFL WR who can separate, run routes and catch. We have 0. 3) GB inability to run the ball, control the clock and capitalize in the red zone caused them to not be able to put that game away...to the point that Pitt wins if they don't run a Chinese Fire Drill for a 2 minute offense at the end. 4) GB's offense struggled against that Pitt defense. Take away their pick 6 and 3 total TO's and Pitt wins that game. Not only do they win it, they win it HANDILY....and that's WITH Aaron Rodgers.
Now imagine a game without 3 forced TO's and Colt McCoy as your QB with our WR corps. It's not a pretty thought.
No sir, I think this throws the debate wide open. Not that it matters because we're running it regardless of how much any of us like or dislike it. We're screwed regardless.
1) I'll tell you right now, the arm strength Colt displayed last year is more than I saw out of him at college. A lot of that is the result of NFL strength training. Colt's a scrawny dude. Give him some time to add some more muscle and his arm strength will continue to improve. He's never going to have a cannon but with a bit more work he'll hopefully be fine. Worst case scenario, we draft a QB next year anyway.
2) Jennings is a good player but Driver is way up there in years and Nelson/Jones had major drop issues yesterday. Their receiving corps is made better by Rodgers. We have a bunch of guys to fill in the depth spots (Nelson/Jones aren't that much better than MoMass/Robo) but we don't have a #1. If we get the chance to draft Green at #6, that fixes the problem.
3) Green Bay was running with a 6th round rookie who started the year at 3rd string. We have a Pro Bowl caliber fullback and an absolute load at running back. I think it's safe to say we have a better running game than they do.
4) Green Bay was absolutely killed by some of the drops during the game. Also, don't exclude that Pitt's offense struggled against Green Bay's defense.
Honestly, I think that it's clear that the way to beat the Steelers is to pass on them and pass often. They don't have nearly the talent in their secondary as they do in their linebacker corps/DL and if you can get them to sit some of their better players for matchup reasons, it plays to your advantage. Heaven help us if Pittsburgh ends up building that unit up but right now, it's an area of weakness that the WCO can exploit. Don't give up on it before it's even been tried, nothing else has worked.
* The elite quarterbacks make the receivers. It's not the other way around. Neither team had a receiver on the roster drafted in the first round. Rodgers made a star out of Jordy Nelson, a second-round pick in 2008, who had nine catches for 140 yards and one touchdown. Next-best was James Jones, a third-round pick in 2007. After him was the team's best receiver, Greg Jennings, a second rounder in 2006.
Look at other QBs like Roethlisberger helping turn Wallace into a star ..... or Peyton Manning making it work with backup backup WRs ....... or Brady making it work with very average WRs in New England ...... or Phillip Rivers leading backup backup backup bums to a top passing rating in the NFL ......
It seems to me that Grossi is right ..... even though it is fairly simple for those who look ........ QBs make WRs far more often than the reverse.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I'll tell you right now, the arm strength Colt displayed last year is more than I saw out of him at college. A lot of that is the result of NFL strength training.
It is MUCH better than it was in college.
The Cardinals also exposed Pitt in the superbowl. You need to pass to set up the run.
Quote: True,...But I think there is something to be said for being a winner.
I was talking about Colt McCoy's name.
I knew that... I apologize for the rant
Edit: Don't know about you, but I was walking a little taller today....almost like my team won a championship LOL.....well a Pittsburgh loss is the next best thing.
Quote: I'll tell you right now, the arm strength Colt displayed last year is more than I saw out of him at college. A lot of that is the result of NFL strength training.
It is MUCH better than it was in college.
The Cardinals also exposed Pitt in the superbowl. You need to pass to set up the run.
And this is why I hope we load up on receivers like we loaded up on DB's last year.
* The elite quarterbacks make the receivers. It's not the other way around. Neither team had a receiver on the roster drafted in the first round. Rodgers made a star out of Jordy Nelson, a second-round pick in 2008, who had nine catches for 140 yards and one touchdown. Next-best was James Jones, a third-round pick in 2007. After him was the team's best receiver, Greg Jennings, a second rounder in 2006.
Look at other QBs like Roethlisberger helping turn Wallace into a star ..... or Peyton Manning making it work with backup backup WRs ....... or Brady making it work with very average WRs in New England ...... or Phillip Rivers leading backup backup backup bums to a top passing rating in the NFL ......
It seems to me that Grossi is right ..... even though it is fairly simple for those who look ........ QBs make WRs far more often than the reverse.
Big difference...
All of GB's WR's have the ability to take it to the house if they get the right pass in stride. I can't say that about any of the Browns receivers outside of Cribbs. Massaquoi doesn't have the wheels.
Plus...when your receiver can beat almost any corner (Wallace) you can throw it up there and make him go get it.
We need speed at receiver, the rest will take care of itself. I believe Shurmur wants to go to the Green Bay model, which I'm plenty ok with.
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camp when it comes to McCoy. It would be a coup if we got our franchise QB as an after thought from the 3rd round who magically gained arm strength and flourished in the WCO after being forced to play due to TWO QB injuries. I really honestly hope he IS that guy. I just don't believe it. He had a good couple games but so do a lot of people. His whole body of work looked eerily similar to another once fondly-thought-of 3rd round QB around here.
Uh Oh. Looks pretty darn similar to me!
