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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14600571/pittsburghs-unmatched-success-proves-change-isnt-goodPittsburgh's unmatched success proves change isn't good By Clark Judge CBSSports.com Senior Writer There is one element that separates the Pittsburgh Steelers from the field, and it's not Ben Roethlisberger, Troy Polamalu or James Harrison. Nope, it's continuity. The Steelers not only believe in it; they practice it, with more patience than most of their competitors combined. And look where it has them: In their third Super Bowl in six seasons. If familiarity breeds contempt, then continuity breeds success. Look at the four most successful franchises the past decade -- Indianapolis, New England, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh -- and tell me what they have in common besides franchise quarterbacks. Yep, they don't blow up their buildings at the first sign of distress. The Colts have changed head coaches once in the past nine years, and only because no one could talk Tony Dungy out of retirement. The Patriots haven't changed their head coach in more than a decade. Neither have the Eagles. And Pittsburgh? The Steelers have had two head coaches the past 19 years and three the past four decades. By contrast, San Francisco has been through three head coaches the past two months. It also hasn't had a winning season since 2002. Change is good ... except when it comes to the NFL. You can argue that this is a chicken-or-the-egg thing, with the question: Does success breed continuity or does continuity breed success? But you cannot argue that tearing up the company's ground floor every two or three years does anything but keep a franchise in limbo. "I'd say that success breeds continuity," said one GM. "The teams that have continuity have success, usually early in a coach's career. And if they don't, owners tend to want to blow things up -- especially the new owners, where it's all about money. "The teams that are the most patient are small-market clubs where there's not a lot of money or teams where their owners have been in the league a long time -- and Pittsburgh is both. They [the Steelers] understand what the league is all about. "But the new owners ... they run their franchises like they run their businesses. And when they don't have immediate success ... when they don’t make a lot of money quickly ... they want to make changes. So they do it."Exhibit A: The Washington Redskins. They went to the divisional round of the playoffs in 1999, then fired coach Norv Turner when they were sitting at 7-6 the following season. They lost two of their next three under interim coach Terry Robiskie before moving on to five head coaches -- including Hall of Famer Joe Gibbs -- with less-than-satisfactory results. During the past decade, Washington is 68-92, with just two winning seasons. Exhibit B: The Cleveland Browns. Since returning to the NFL in 1999, they've been through five head coaches, with Eric Mangini fired this month after two seasons. The Browns went to the playoffs once and have a combined record of 64-128. I know what you're thinking: Yeah? That's why they fired those coaches. They stunk. Maybe. Except Pittsburgh didn't fire Bill Cowher after he went 7-9 and 6-10 in back-to-back seasons. Tennessee didn't fire Jeff Fisher after he went 9-23 in 2004-05, either. And Philadelphia didn't fire Andy Reid after he slumped to 6-10 in 2005.
Logic says that a club like Pittsburgh resists knee-jerk moves because, well, why change when you're winning? Good question. Except the Steelers didn't always win. They were 7-9 in 1985, 6-10 in '86, 8-7 in '87 and 5-11 in '88. Yet they never flinched, keeping Chuck Noll as their head coach. Tell me where that happens today. In most other places coaches are on the clock. But Pittsburgh is not most places, and, yes, the Steelers have a system that finds coaches and players who fit, the best defensive coordinator on the planet and one of the sharpest GMs in the league. But, in Dan Rooney, they have an owner who gives his coaches time -- and plenty of it -- to prove themselves and shape their programs, and that support, patience and allegiance pay off. "It's huge," said an AFC head coach, "because it creates tremendous efficiency. Everyone in the organization knows what he's looking for. The scouts. The coaches. Everyone. They all know what a Steeler player looks like, so they pick up guys that fit ... basically because everyone knows what fits. You don't have to debate and dissect a player. You look at their 20 highest-paid players, and they're all draft picks. That's no coincidence. "As a coach, when you work for a club like the Steelers you make decisions based on what is best for the organization and the team because you know you're going be there. But when you don't, you do what you can to save your job, often making quick-fix and short-sighted decisions. That's not the way in Pittsburgh." So we noticed. Granted, Pittsburgh doesn't pay its coaches like they do in, say, Washington or Dallas, but tell me where the security and job satisfaction are greater, the ownership is more supportive and the continuity is stronger. Tell me where there are more Lombardi Trophies, too. Now tell me all they're not related because they are.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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YTow....Mangini is gone...and not coming back...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Gee really?
It's not about Mangini, it's about constantly changing every 2.4 years on average.
I wouldn't expect you to understand that though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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So how long do you stay the course with a sub .500 coach? I am not in favor of rolling over head coaches.
Are you suggesting that staying long enough assures playoffs and SB? The Rooneys are exceptional owners. They have had success andbeen loyal to our franchise. Our suckness has carpeted the road to Sb's, either in our absence or talent level or lame coaching. But I think the results are here, Mangini is gone, and it IS time to move on. No clubs have equalled their success, so it is an anomaly. And our road to the SB runs through the Rooneys. Still I hope it is instructive for the future.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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OK...those who like to hammer Randy Lerner and blame him for all the changes...tell me this...how many seasons did Lerner give the first HC he hired, to prove himself?
Now, tell me this...when Lerner hired Holmgren to run the Browns..should he have stipulated that making any changes to the HC position be off limits?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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It starts at the very top.. in this case Randy Lerner..
Randy inherited the team from his father and frankly was thrown into the fray. Not sure anyone could have done a whole lot better at the onset.
My feeling is that holmgren was a solid football hire and he brought in two guys that should run two of the three parts the team very well. Heckert for the football side and Bryan Wiedmeier for the business side.
The third part is HC and while I'm still unsure of Shumur (only because I don't know a lot about him) he's holmgren and heckerts pick so I'll be supportive.
I hope we have it right this time. if so, then it will be just a matter of time until we can be a solid team and almoat always in contention.
I do think that we've made two mistakes, one was firing Palmer too quickly. That teams failure wasn't entirely on his shoulders. Look at what they gave him to coach. The other is Mangini for reasons I've stated.
But that's yesterdays news,, let's hope that we've finally found the right mix.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Lerner 1 gave Palmer .... 2 years. Then Davis got .... 3 1/2 years. The Crennel got 4 years. Then Mangini got 2 years. Now Holmgren/Shurmur get .... well, who knows? Given our recent history though, I wouldn't spend a lot on real estate if I were either guy. 12 years, 5 head coaches, probably 10 or more offensive coordinators, God only knows how many different assistants ...... Gee, I wonder why we never get any better? I mean, if Shurmur's regime wins less than 5 games next year do we set new land speed records and dump him then? That sure seems the path we're on. "You better win this week or you're fired!"  I would think that I have made my feelings on this matter clear by now, and I have said that we need to give the new guy at least 5 years to put a team together. You keep going back to Mangini for some reason, just like you keep going back to past Presidents in other threads. It's really quite ridiculous. I've come to expect stuff like that from you though, as it is a continuing and never ending trend.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Lerner 1 gave Palmer .... 2 years
yt...that was not Randy Lerner, was it?
I said...
" OK...those who like to hammer Randy Lerner and blame him for all the changes...tell me this...how many seasons did Lerner give the first HC he hired, to prove himself? "
Quote:
Then Davis got .... 3 1/2 years.
yt...NOPE..Davis was not Randy Lerner's hire.
Obviously you are avoiding the two questions I asked...or simply don't know the answer..
OK...those who like to hammer Randy Lerner and blame him for all the changes...tell me this...how many seasons did Lerner give the first HC he hired, to prove himself?
Now, tell me this...when Lerner hired Holmgren to run the Browns..should he have stipulated that making any changes to the HC position be off limits?
Answering these two questions puts the Mangini firing in perspective...he had to go, according to those who know more about the Browns than any of "us"...
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Rookie
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GMAB!!!!!
For 3 weeks all we hear from you is the same old stuff. I think you may have that medical diesease called P.M.S.
Post Mangini Syndrome
One thing those 4 teams have is a good front office. They knew what they were doing. The Browns never had that. Maybe they are now getting a decent front office. But some anxious "no nothings" with to much time on their hands are crying everyday all day long.
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Practice Squad
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Not to mention the specific coaches named each had a PROVEN TRACK RECORD OF SUCCESS that enabled the owner, and to a lesser extent, fan base the luxury of seeing if they could recapture that old magic. Ried, Cowher and Fisher each had at the least 6 years tenure and proven succes, as well as SUPER BOWL apperances, to back them up! This article is a slobber job on the Squeelers. Nothing more, nothing less and to try and infer that we need to follow that template is redundant. Gee, do ya think that every other GM and owner is cribbing off the Steelers now? That's why the NFL is a copycat league. Steelers are the flavor of the week until Green Bay beats 'em.
"If you need two yards, I'll get you two yards. If you need four yards, I'll get you two yards!" Ron Wolfley, Special Teams Madman
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Quote:
Quote:
Lerner 1 gave Palmer .... 2 years
yt...that was not Randy Lerner, was it?
I said...
" OK...those who like to hammer Randy Lerner and blame him for all the changes...tell me this...how many seasons did Lerner give the first HC he hired, to prove himself? "
Quote:
Then Davis got .... 3 1/2 years.
yt...NOPE..Davis was not Randy Lerner's hire.
I think he was just listing the coaches and the # of years they were here. He even said Lerner "1" so I would hazard to guess he is referring to senior knowingly.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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1st String
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Does continuity breed success, or does success breed continuity?
Does anybody really believe Belichick would still be the head coach in New England if Tom Brady didn't turn out to be Tom Brady? The writer of this article says to look beyond franchise quarterbacks for commonalities between the four successful franchises, but in doing so I think he's overlooking the main point.
Can someone offer a recent example of a franchise that hasn't "blown up their buildings at the first sign of distress" without a franchise quarterback and been rewarded for it? Tennessee would be the only one I can think of, and I wouldn't exactly put 6 playoff appearances in 16 years on par with the other franchises being discussed here.
Last edited by ComicSans; 01/27/11 10:24 AM.
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Change for change's sake isn't good. The Bengals stick to their head coaches for far too long, and look where that's gotten them. The Lions stuck with Matt Millen for 8 years, and he left that team a worse train wreck than before he got there.
This article makes it sound like any change for any reason is what causes teams to be bad. I'd rather the Browns hire and fire coaches every 2 years to find the right one than to stick with a lousy coach for a decade just for stability's sake.
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Hall of Famer
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IF you find a coach you believe in then stick with him.
Palmer was begging to be fired. Honestly I remember his presser's and wow it was almost please someone put me out of my misery type stuff.
Butch was truly believed in by the Lerners. Butch however completely lost the players with his pettiness. We had players faking injuries so they wouldnt have to play. We had players telling free agents to stay away. Then finally Butch resigned as he was about to have a nervous breakdown.
Romeo was never the head coach. He was a buddy. He was a pal. He was so far over his head it was mind boggling. Down by 14 with 3 mins to go and he kicks a fieldgoal umm yea.
Mangini's demise began with Kokopuffs. Mangini made it so no one in their right mind would be willing to take the GM job and work with him. I remember koko saying he saw that we had traded BE on sportscenter.
His crappy record and the Koko debacle opened the door for Holmgren to build this thing in his image. Holmgren and Heckert have a philosophy for O and D and the players to fill that philosophy and it is the opposite of what Mangini wants. Parting was the best thing in this situation.
Shurmur now has the most stable situation of any HC since Paul Brown to be honest. He has a very good GM to support him. He has Mike Holmgren to bounce ideas off of and to take some of the heat off of him. All Shurmur has to do is coach.
The setup for long term continuity as well as long term success is in place.
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Legend
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Quote:
Lerner 1 gave Palmer .... 2 years.
Then Davis got .... 3 1/2 years.
The Crennel got 4 years.
Then Mangini got 2 years.
Now Holmgren/Shurmur get .... well, who knows? Given our recent history though, I wouldn't spend a lot on real estate if I were either guy.
12 years, 5 head coaches, probably 10 or more offensive coordinators, God only knows how many different assistants ......
Gee, I wonder why we never get any better?
I mean, if Shurmur's regime wins less than 5 games next year do we set new land speed records and dump him then? That sure seems the path we're on. "You better win this week or you're fired!"
I would think that I have made my feelings on this matter clear by now, and I have said that we need to give the new guy at least 5 years to put a team together. You keep going back to Mangini for some reason, just like you keep going back to past Presidents in other threads. It's really quite ridiculous. I've come to expect stuff like that from you though, as it is a continuing and never ending trend.
To be fair about this, Al Lerner didn't want to fire Palmer (or so it was reported) but he bowed to the folks in his organization (Policy and Clark) when they wanted Palmer gone.
I get the feeling that if Davis hadn't said he'd come, that Palmer would have remained at least another year.
I don't think it would have mattered however. He was getting bums as players. so I don't know what coach could have done much with that mess.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Pitt, Philly, NE, others prove change isn't always good
They also prove you don't NEED to change once you get it right. The expansion Browns have proven they haven't done that since arriving in 99.
But now we have a seemingly solid roof and the foundation seems to be close to solid and sturdy. Fingers crossed that we're on the right path to stability and positive consistency.
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Success breeds continuity. Anyone who argues other wise is a fool. And none of our coaches have been successful.
you had a good run Hank.
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Quote:
Are you suggesting that staying long enough assures playoffs and SB?
I a way- yes... but with a disclainer.
While it's true we've had an unhealthy rate of turnover, much of our lack of success had to do with an unhealthy structure at the top. No Prez to demand/ensure unanymity of purpose/direction, GM/HC following 2 different agendae, etc. This is on the owner for not providing a stable, viable framework for success. (This is the first regime we have that is based on the proper model. Too bad it took twelve freakkin' years!)
I've been in the continuity camp for years now, but I've also known that we'd always have trouble without a properly set-up FO. Firing the coaches was never the answer... and we'll just now begin to see what a stable, unified FO can do. More than any other factor, stability at the top is what separates teams like those mentioned from teams like Cleveland.
In a sense, the HC is the least important member at (or near) the top of the heirarchy. Strong Prez is indispensible, as is a GM who knows his coaching staff, and knows how to evaluate talent. GM must also know how to work the draft for max value with tradeup/downs, etc. Once those two guys have established a bas THEN continuity can become an asset.
Let's face it- every coach we've had save one has been able to get us one winning season- even with the hodge-podge talent pool we've had- so coaching clearly isn't the key. There was simply no way ANY coach-. not even Paul Brown himself- could win consistently with the jacked-up power structure we had.
I hope and pray that we now have the pieces in place to stop the (not so) merry-go-round that has marred our reputation, stunted our growth, and kept fans in a perpetual dtate of frustration.
May now, we can get it right.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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A fellow Steeler-hater and I were talking the other day about the upcoming SuperBowl and the Steelers impending 7th Ring. Neither of us felt GB could stop them. Some guy at the bar turns around and jokes "Our only chance is that the terrorist take out the whole team"
So we chuckle a second (fully aware that no one really wishes this, God Bless America, and all the common sense side of it).
But it did get us talking about the Steelers and a "We Are Marshall" type scenario where they lose their entire team to tragedy. Players, back ups, coaches, the works.
Even then, I believe the Steelers would be able to put together a championship caliber team before the Browns can. They believe in stability, consistancy, player developement, discipline, etc. In short, all the things that Randy Lerner ignores. We'll never get anywhere with the management currently in place making knee jerk reactions...
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The article is kind of only looking at one aspect ... Cowher, Fisher, Reid - those guys showed something that gave them the benefit of the doubt.
Palmer, Davis, Crennel, Mangini ... hell, Davis was the best gameday coach of the bunch ... those guys were inept in a lot of ways.
Organizationally, we've been a mess since we got back.
I hope we got it right this time. I hope we draft well. I hope the new guy isn't in over his head.
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Quote:
But it did get us talking about the Steelers and a "We Are Marshall" type scenario where they lose their entire team to tragedy. Players, back ups, coaches, the works.
As long as they have their current QB they'd be fine. As a youngin, I seem to remember their RB's and defense being pretty darned good - but I don't remember any Superbowl wins with Mark Malone or Bubby Brister.
Cowher was a good coach, but that QB took them up a notch.
Stability at the top is only as strong as the QB.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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All Pro
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Quote:
Logic says that a club like Pittsburgh resists knee-jerk moves because, well, why change when you're winning? Good question. Except the Steelers didn't always win. They were 7-9 in 1985, 6-10 in '86, 8-7 in '87 and 5-11 in '88. Yet they never flinched, keeping Chuck Noll as their head coach. Tell me where that happens today.
1984: 9-7
1983: 10-6
1982: 6-3 (strike year)
1981: 8-8
1980: 9-7
1979: 12-4 Super Bowl Champions
1978: 14-2 Super Bowl Champions
1977: 9-5
1976: 10-4
1975: 12-2 Super Bowl Champions
1974: 10-3-1 Super Bowl Champions
1973: 10-4
1972: 11-3
...and a bunch of losing seasons before all the winning.
My point is, it's a heck of a lot easier to stick with a guy through a losing streak when he's shown he can be successful. The counterpoint is how long do you stick with a guy to see if he will become successful. Judge's piece addresses neither of those points and stinks of trying to support an already selected conclusion. The issue is much more complex than "Change is Bad" (unless you're an Obama basher...)
P.S. And as for "never flinching," Noll had three more seasons 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9 and then it was Cowher. Maybe they should have canned him...
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/GmuEd.gif) "One man's Bum is another man's Hobo" - Waterdawg
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All Pro
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No matter what system is in place, it would help players out a lot if they didn't have to learn a new system every year. The Steelers come to training camp and fine tune their games. The Browns come in with a new system every other year and must re-learn the basics before they can start playing fast.
I'm ok with Holmgren bringing in his guys, but now we must be patient and give them all the time they need to be successful. This team is going to struggle next year in a new system. If we go 0-16 this year and Gruden or Cowher want to come here and coach I would still stay the course with who we have.
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Quote:
Success breeds continuity. Anyone who argues other wise is a fool. And none of our coaches have been successful.
I think what the article is saying is once you have found success, don't be swayed into knee jerk reactions if what worked yesterday isn't working today.
The article relates a story about Chuck Noll and how he had some bad years. the Steelers didn't kick him to the curb. They hung in there with him for what I think was another 4 or 5 years.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Quote:
Quote:
Success breeds continuity. Anyone who argues other wise is a fool. And none of our coaches have been successful.
I think what the article is saying is once you have found success, don't be swayed into knee jerk reactions if what worked yesterday isn't working today.
I agree. However, you have to find success first, which is sort of a folly in trying to argue we haven't had continuity. Gotta have success to build that.
For instance, I liked Mangini, his style of football and thought he was building a good team. However, he didn't win in the division, so I understand the need to part ways (along with other factors). Great coaches make life hell on division opponents even when the team is having a bad year (due to familiarity and more dedicated scouting/preparation for division opponents).
#gmstrong
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Free Agency is Killing the Browns.
I don't think the Continuty is because of the coaches, and I'm positive that a bad head coach must be replaced, and sooner rather than later, but I really beleive that under the current rules, the difference is free agency is killing the Browns and teams like them.
Before I read this article, I was brainstorming how the Browns are hurt by free agency and the lack of supplemental draft picks from players leaving in free agency and I'm seeing it is the one constant, the one thing to accompany all of the losing since free agency began.
Everybody Always says you build through the draft, about every winning team, Even if it was the Bill going to 4 Sb's in 4 years, or the Oilers of 1991 and prior. Even the Buccanneers became good in 2004 or so, and even the Falcons made the superbowl with Jamal Anderson and the dirty birds, so How did they do it?
I bet they did it by building through the draft.
Free agency came about around what year? 1989? I think so, So then the Browns since 1989...
( its important to remember, that teams around the league ALL TEAMS seemed to have a core of players who stuck around, who you could count on, kind of an IDENTITY to that team, year in and year out, they used to stick around more than 4 years.... Which made watching your favorite NFL team more exciting than watching your favorite College team where the players changed every 4 years...
because in the NFL you knew your Guys and you knew your Rivals Guys, and when they played You knew they Knew each other, and it was Cyclical, because every now and then the dominate team would get Overtaken by the perennial losers and then those losers would get in a STREAK of wins against that other team .... because they had somehow figured it out.
but most of all, Everybody knew their team, You had a Team and for Changes to come to that team, either somebody had to get old, or somebody had to WIN that job from them.
You actually had to be better to get a spot on the roster.
Imagine that.
since 1989 the Browns have had 2 or 3 winning teams, and they have all had significant draft picks contributing, but thats not always so on the losing teams, so though it seems like you build through the draft, maybe a conclusion can be made that you don't build through free agency.
I"m making the statement that Every free agent who makes it, stops the opportunity for a draft pick to make it, and for every draft pick that doesnt make it you don't get a FUTURE SUPPLEMENTAL DRAFT PICK.
Future Supplemental draft picks, which New England seems to have a Million every year only make it
Easier for your team to have one of THOSE draft picks develop and leave in free agency which would bring ANOTHER SUPPLEMENTAL DRAFT PICK and that would allow for that player to develop and leave in free agency and bring ANOTHER SUPPLEMENTAL DRAFT PICK.
The Browns model, which is Sign a bunch of free agents who are past their prime, or some would argue still in their best years ... leaves NO ROOM FOR PLAYER DEVELOPMENT... No room for player development means when these players leave the team, they are retiring or just being forced out do to not being good enough to continue in the NFL, or not a NEW coaches favorite.
Either way it means there is no supplemental draft pick And not only that
It means You have to spend your ORIGINAL draft picks TRYING TO FILL HOLES WITH UNPROVEN ROOKIES.... you can't draft Best Player Available, because you will have Glaring Needs ...
So the conclusion, EVERY FREE AGENT SIGNED who is 27, or 28 or older, will provide you with a glaring need in the long run,,, 3-5 years down the road.
Teams won't let you sign free agents who are 22, 23. or 24, unless they went Undrafted... BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST, because draftees don't become free agents until they have 4 years in the league.
In the Case of UDFA's who PAN OUT like Josh Cribbs, this doesn't apply because they are already Youthful and have opportunity to develop and mature.
WHEN IT COMES TO SIGNING FREE AGENTS, YOU NEED TO SIGN THE ONES IN YOUR OWN TEAMS UNIFORM FIRST.
Guess What, the Browns Don't do that, they haven't done that more often then not, more often than not they let their own free agents go, Since 1991 and especially since 1999,
And often you will get the explanation, they weren't going to be able to pay enough to keep them here anyway.
Every one that leaves, creates a hole in the roster
Every hole in the roster that is filled with another teams Free agent signing, eventually results in that player leaving without development, result... No new Supplemental draft pick
If the said " hole in the roster" is filled with an Original draft pick, it is a draft pick who NEVER HAD TO WIN THE JOB, see Ben Taylor, and the Trio of 4th+ round linebackers, of which only Andra Davis panned out and THAT took a lot of years.
Or it is a draft pick that isn't the best player available, drafted at a position of NEED instead of an opportunity to draft to a postition to improve the team.
See articles about the majority of the front 7 needing replaced in 2011.
Continuity = keeping the team together.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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All Pro
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Stability is nice. So is winning. I wanted Mangini to stay. He's gone now and I'm OK with that. He left the team in better shape than when he arrived. I got no reason to be hating on the man, nor do I really need to feel loyal. At least this time the whole organization isn't getting fired across Lake Erie in some kind of bizarre half clown half human cannonball fashion. Maybe Shurmur will be the man. Maybe not. We won't really know until we see a few football games. He has a nice resume so we'll wait and see. As far as stability goes. Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, for all those who say stability is an essential ingredient to building a successful football program I give you Exhibit A:  I rest my case.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Legend
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Quote:
Even then, I believe the Steelers would be able to put together a championship caliber team before the Browns can. They believe in stability, consistancy, player developement, discipline, etc. In short, all the things that Randy Lerner ignores. We'll never get anywhere with the management currently in place making knee jerk reactions...
Gift...so you think Randy Lerner does not believe in stability, consistency, player development, discipline, etc?
BULLCRAP !
Since 1969, the Rooney family has built a franchise that is strong enough to endure HC changes without blowing the team up and I give them credit for the job they have done.
The Lerner family has owned the Browns for 12 seasons and during that time, they have had 4 different HCs...4 GMs...4 Presidents. I certainly agree that a lack of consistency from the front office down, has not helped to turn the Browns into winners.
BUT...how much do you know about the history of the Steelers?
The Steelers were not always this well oiled machine of success, year after year. From 1933 to 1971, the Steelers, under the ownership of the Rooney family, had 12 winning seasons (includes 5 seasons of .500) in 37 seasons and did not win "anything" during that time.
The following is from Art Rooney's wiki bio...
{ After the war (1946), Rooney became team president. He longed to bring an NFL title to Pittsburgh but was never able to beat the powerhouse teams, like the Cleveland Browns and Green Bay Packers. Although the Steelers were reasonably popular in the city during this time, they would remain second-fiddle to the Pittsburgh Pirates until the 1970s and were known in the NFL as the "lovable losers". The team also made some questionable personnel calls at the time such as cutting a then-unknown Johnny Unitas in training camp (Unitas would go on to a Hall of Fame career with the Baltimore Colts) and trading their first round pick in the 1965 draft to the Chicago Bears (who would draft Dick Butkus with the pick), among others. }
web page
It took the Rooneys 3.7 decades to develop a formula that could win a Championship and then win consistently. That formula included hiring Chuck Noll as HC in 1969. Noll was born in Cleveland, Ohio and played at Benedictine High School and at the University of Dayton before being drafted by the Browns, playing under HC, Paul Brown, from 1953 to 1959.
While some Browns fans are not happy with the changes that have occurred since 1999, change is sometimes necessary until a franchise finds their own winning formula.
I wonder how many Browns fans believe the winning formula was HC Chris Palmer and team President Carmen Policy?
...How many believe the winning formula was Butch Davis (HC/GM) and Policy (Pres)?
...How many believe the winning formula was Crennel (HC), Savage (GM) and Collins (Pres)?
...Anyone believe the winning formula for the Browns was Mangini (HC) and Kokinis (GM)?
...obviously some believe the winning formula was Mangini (HC), Heckert (GM) and Holmgren (Pres)...just one problem...Mangini's 5-11 season in 2010 did not impress Holmgren.
Only time will tell if Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur are that winning formula that the Browns have been searching for. But remember this, the only way a franchise finds the right combination that works for them, is to change the various components until you get it right.
It only took Art Rooney 37 seasons to find his winning formula...keep that in mind the next time you criticize the Lerner family for taking so long to put together their winning formula.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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No matter what system is in place, it would help players out a lot if they didn't have to learn a new system every year. The Steelers come to training camp and fine tune their games. The Browns come in with a new system every other year and must re-learn the basics before they can start playing fast.
I'm ok with Holmgren bringing in his guys, but now we must be patient and give them all the time they need to be successful. This team is going to struggle next year in a new system. If we go 0-16 this year and Gruden or Cowher want to come here and coach I would still stay the course with who we have.
Exactly. This is what I have argued, and I even said earlier in this thread that we need to give Shurmur at least 5 years to get the system in place.
Somehow people took that as "YTown loves the Ex-Coach".
I am so sick and tired of starting over all the damn time ..... of dumping the whole team ....... of trying to find the right players ... again .....
Unless there is something completely unacceptable like the Savage situation, then we should ride out whartever happens over the next 5 years with this FO and coachign staff, and let them try to build from the foundation up .... instead of trying to build a pretty house out of mud built on quicksand.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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here's an excerpt from a post I made on another board: Quote:
Final word: I'm well past hating the team from Pittsburgh for their success. They stumbled around for almost 30 years, then found the Browns' recipe for success. Once they found it, they didn't outsmart themselves, and try to 'improve' upon proven winning strategies. As such, their last 30 years has been a 180° turnaround. Good for them. It's no surprise that they used the model perfected by the Browns a half-century ago. In all fairness, if I allow myself to hate the Stoolz for their success, some part of me must hate the Browns for discarding the model they set back in 1946. I can't do that, so I won't hate on Pittsburgh for having an organizational structure that made smarter choices than ours did. In all of this, there is only one worthy of hate: Art Modell. Until he bought the team, there was a history of competence, continutity, strong foundations and adherence to proven rules for success. Since then, it's been one short-term regime after another. In essence, Pittsburgh and Cleveland traded places in the NFL's standings by trading philosophies... and you can't hate your opponents for doing it right, if you're going to continue to do it wrong.
Here's a fun fact: Since Art Modell took ownership of this team, there has NEVER been a HC last beyond 7 years. Even factoring in Paul Brown's 16-year tenure, he average lifespan of a Browns Head Coach is 2.8 years. You read it right... and I used a calculator to assure my that results were correct.
2.8 years.
Conversely, The Pittsburgh Steelers' HC average lifespan is exactly 4 years... and that counts the tenures of Chuck Noll and Bill Cowher. Before the Noll era, the Stoolz went through SIXTEEN Head Coaches, dating from 1933 to 1966- just 3 years after Paul Brown left Cleveland. Average life expectancy? 2.375 years.
If you want to look at the disribution of wins and losses between the two teams, look no further than that pivotal point- when Art Modell started making team decisions and fired Paul Brown. That's when the gap began to close. Since both teams flip-flopped approaches, they've gotten similar results as their counterparts. This is beyond coincidence, folks. Those who scream for continuity have a valid point. Culture needs time to instill... at least 5-10 years. Once a culture has been locked into place, players become parts of the whole. That's what you see in Pittsburgh. It's what you used to see in Cleveland. It's sad- many, if not most Browns fans aren't old enough to remember when a game with the Steelers was almost an automatic win. Back then, only the fans from both cities saw this as a rivalry. The Browns saw it as another foot-wiping session upon the collective faces of a perennial divisional doormat. Sound familiar?
This will never change until one of 2 things happens:
1. The Browns stop this madness of turning over top-level regimes every 2-4 years.
2. The Stoolz begin running things like they did when they were a pre-70's laughingstock.
As of right now, it's a tossup as to which will happen first.
Add to that the sentiments from my first post in this thread, and you'll get an idea of what I think the problem has been. For the most part, it's been Randy Lerner's "learning curve." After the team was dumped on him out of the blue, he's had to learn on his feet... and that above all else, has stunted this team's development.
We all know how the team was rushed back intothe league and the early mistakes that were made during that time. What hasn't been discussed enough is the missteps that Lerner The Younger has made since becoming the owner.
After three tries, he's finally put the proper structure in place to begin building the team right. Prez/GM/Exec Advisor/HC all on the same page as to direction is the best place to start. We have that now. Even if Shurmur proved to be a bust, the top structure will still be intact.. and a new coaching staff will be selected in accordance with the top brass' vision. That's miles better than anything we've had before.
Only when the FO is stable, can something lasting be built. We now have a chance.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Dawg Talker
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Thanks for posting, Mac. I was thinking the other day how many peopel remember just how bad the Steelers were for so long, and that their success certainly didn't happen over night.
My guess is that if there was a message board in those early days, people would have been calling for Rooney to sell the team to an owner who would put a quality product on the field!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Prez/GM/Exec Advisor/HC all on the same page as to direction is the best place to start. We have that now. Even if Shurmur proved to be a bust, the top structure will still be intact
This is what I think matters most. Even if Shurmur doesn't work out, the FO will hunt a guy that fits into the vision THEY have for the team. Not hire a coach who will revamp the identity of the team they are trying to create. This is the FO's team, they just need a coach to coach what they hand to him.
Similar to how Tomlin walked into what Cowher had helped build up, and didn't tear it down to put his stamp on it.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 01/27/11 03:04 PM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Thanks for posting, Mac. I was thinking the other day how many peopel remember just how bad the Steelers were for so long, and that their success certainly didn't happen over night.
That's very true.. and as it happens, it's the reason I'm a browns fan lol
I was born and raised just outside of Pittsburgh PA.
Everyone in my family out there is a Steelers fan.. In fact, I may well be the only one that isn't.
All because my uncle and cousin (who lived in parma) took me to a Browns game in the very early 60's.. Paul brown was still the HC and I got to see Jim Brown drop 150+ yards on the ground that day.
I was hooked.
But the point is that prior to Noll and Dan Rooneys brother (can't remember which one it was) the Steelers had no idenity. No style, no reason for pride. (does that sound familiar)
They had something like 16 head coaches (a couple must have been interim) prior to Noll and two since. Keep in mind, that's 14 full time head coaches in 36 years prior to Noll. Average of 2.57 years per coach. The browns have had 5 in 10 years for an average of 2 years per coach. Not really a significant difference.
Noll was the turning point. They have had a few bad years since 1969, several when he first got there. But mostly, they've maintained a pretty successful organization from the top down.
Keep in mind, Noll started out like this
1969 - 1-13
1970 - 5-9
1971 - 6-8
1972 - 11-3
23-21 overall not a glowing record for the first three years, but they stuck with him. and believe me, I lived there at that time and the fans were calling for Nolls head. Art Rooney stayed the course.. sometimes, you have to get in bed with an idea and stand with it till the bitter end.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Man, I don't even want to think about Shurmur not working out at this point 
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Legend
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That all depends on Colt.
Colt holds the keys to Shurmur's future.
I am anxious to start reading what Shurmur thinks of Colt now that I'm sure he's watched some film.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Hall of Famer
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sometimes, you have to get in bed with an idea and stand with it till the bitter end.
I've got plenty of dreams but I need a few willing to get in bed!  and yes, the end would most likely be bitter...for me.
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Tell that to Atlanta, Tampa Bay, etc etc... It's not so much about the coach as it is who he has playing for him. You don't think Mangini would win with the Colts players ? Or the Packers ? Heck, I give the ball to Payton or Rodgers and say go win it. Our problem is the darn PLAYERS these past regimes have drafted, OR NOT. Look at all the players we PASSED on that were/are in the playoffs. Makes me sick thinking about it.
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Hall of Famer
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How's that continuity working out for the Bengals?
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
How's that continuity working out for the Bengals?
It's working a lot better than it was before continuity. At least they have won a division championship.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Legend
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pretty lousy, Squires...
...but then, they have "Daddy Paul's" ne'er-do-well son running the show.
Looks like this time, the apple fell from the tree... and rolled at least half a mile downhill....
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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