DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pitt, Philly, NE, others prove change isn't always good.

I realized last year that so many of our woes begin with the fact that we have an owner that simply has no vision or driving philosophy. He means well, he opens the wallet and steps back into the shadows but the last 12 years can pretty much be defined as aimless stumbling coupled with pure bad luck and that starts with poor top level mgmt.

I think the Holmgren hire was his consenting that he doesn't really have a vision. With Butch/Policy and Crenell/Savage I understood that they needed to go, no amount of time was going to make them good coaches. I, like many others on the board, felt we should have stayed the course with Mangini becasue we at least started to feel a "personality" which is code for a unified direction... a vision or driving philosophy. But I'm willing to stay plugged in to see how all these new strangers work out. I sense Learner was always hoping to just "get lucky" with the right combinations of staff over the last decade and I guess there is a difference in that this staff at least appears to be more taylor made according to a real football person's vision. So we'll see.

I'm not overly optimistic because, while I believe many of our woes begin with an owner with no vision or overarching philosphy driving the organization I believe our woes end with the fact that we've drafted and aquired talent poorly. That's no secret. No coach will look good with as few cohesively talented players as we have. And only a truly bad coach would lose consistantly with a team as fully stocked as Pitt. I think what the writer says about taylored talent aquisition in particular is the most important thing of all, above all else. It all comes down to that because you can talk about everyone in mgmt "being on the same page" or a coach being a great teacher or leader, or being able to "coach up" players but if you don't have a team full of quality role players that execute the way the plan has envisioned them doing it none of any of that stuff matters.

We'll know in 2 years if Shurmer is a bonehead or at least decent. I don't think hitting eject after 2 years is a bad thing if you know a guy is just not at all good and that was defenitely the case with Butch and Crenell IMO. I was ready to show Crenell the door after 2 years and by the end of Butch's tenure I could NOT understand how he had a job. I should say I don't think Tomlin is super awesome btw but he's got a lot of talent on his roster and knows how to NOT screw it up and there's A LOT to be said for that. I think that's been true of a lot of "successful" coaches over the years. If Shurmer is at least so-so 2 years from now then we owe it to ourselves to let Heckert and Holmgren assemble a team of players that actually fit the system in Holmgren's head for a full 5 years. If I had a vote this would be it: If he doesn't totally implode ala Butch or RAC, make a commitment to 5 full years. If that pans out then 7 or 9 years down the road when they have back to back 7-9, 5-11 seasons we'll give pause before hitting the eject button.

If you don't want to even think about Schurmur failing, I want to give him some advice.

Next season will come around, and the Browns will be overmatched offensively, and it will be a division game. ANY, EVERY division game.
I base this on that they're going to draft all defense to replace the front 7 as they said they have need.
Well !!!!! you gotta play to win the game, you gotta coach to win the game, AND we've seen it for years. The Browns don't have a 2 minute offense, and any offense they have OFTEN STALLS.

So I'm sayihng one piece of advice, Go for it on 4th down.
How do you know when to go for it on 4th down?
Have you reached mid field? Have you Almost reached mid field, or better and is it a division game. Do you not have the lead? That is when you go for it on 4th down.
Why?
NO team in this division, most in the entire NFL , will have any trouble moving the ball between the 20's against the Browns, no matter what you do to the defense, so you might as well roll the dice by going for it on 4th down.
Crennel wouldn't, Mangini didn't, Butch did only some of the time.
You might not be able to win the division, but you Might Make Progress. If you can win 3 division games, once vs each team, that would be alot of progress.
It's gonna take scoring alot of points, and you don't have the offense to do it.
And you won't have the defense to do it without scoring alot of points, so

What I"m trying to say is, AT the end of the season I want Pat Schurmur to look back on the Year, and WIN OR LOSE know he went for it on 4th down at least 7 times when he didn't have to.
Because with this kind of team, the only way you're going to get better is if you take chances,

Nobody ever made a touchdown catch in tripple coverage if someone didn't throw into tripple coverage.

Evill Kinevil didn't jump just 1 bus !

Again i don't understand this hating on Marvin Lewis...he is a GOOD COACH....for petes sake.

BEFORE the 2010 season Lewis had a 56-55 record...he was over .500

so the Bengals had a bad year this past year..SO WHAT!? it happens...

Marvin Lewis has made the Bengals "relevant" he has won two division titles, has made the playoffs twice, and has had a few good seasons.....

this past year is the FIRST year Lewis has finished last in this division, he has had only 3 losing seasons in 8 seasons (one of those seasons being a 7-9 record) he has only won less then 5 games in two out of 8 seasons.

i would LOVE to have Marvin Lewis here...he is a darn good coach...when is the last time the Browns won this stinking division?

shut up about Marvin Lewis...yes I hate the Bengals too but it is unfair and just disingenuous to try and discredit Lewis...it took him 5 years to rebuild that team.

yes Mike Brown actually "got it right" for a change and kept his coach that has actually made his team somewhat respectable again....yes the announcers don't call them the "Bungals" anymore....while they laugh at the Browns.

I would be thrilled with Marvin Lewis here in Cleveland, the guy is a good hard-nosed head coach...so what they had 1 bad year...they play tough competitive football...the Bengals are actually on the right track..i hate to say it...they are much farther along then we are...give Marvin Lewis the Steelers or Raven's roster the dude wins a SB....the fact the dude has only TWO seasons winning less then 5 games with that roster is quite telling.

please hush about Marvin Lewis...really...calling him a bad coach is just oxymoronic....he has a better record then any coach we have had here since Schotenheimer....I would love to have Lewis here...i was hoping the Bengals would be stupid and fire Lewis and perhaps we would hire him...the guy is a solid coach.

since we will be rebuilding next year, don't be surprised if the Bengals add a few more pieces and post a a 10 or more win season next year.....its a shame we couldn't have kept our coach instead of blowing things up.

Marvin Lewis is a good coach, and a great person....I shook that mans hand once when my sister used to live in cinci before she moved back...the guy is a stand up class act, and he is a good coach and it doesn't sit well with me when people bad mouth good people who have been successful...Marvin Lewis is far from a failure....he is an above average Head Coach....he is in the point of his career he will either rise or fall, but right now...the guy has every opportunity to be successful and even though I hate the Bengals...i will not stoop as low to discredit a man that has done a lot with very little.

the fact he has made the Bengals relevent and competitive with that circus act in the lockeroom tells me he is a better coach then folks give him credit for...

i'd love to have Lewis here...the guy is a very underated solid head coach.

Consistency is important... if you are good. Matt Millen as GM of Detroit... do you think that if he stayed in the position for 20 years that they would have won a couple of Super Bowls? I am going with... no.

The difference in ability from the 32nd team in the league to the 1st team in the league is really small. Cleveland is not devoid of talent the way some believe. They need the right people at top and winning will very quickly follow. Butch Davis inherited an expansion team that had been 2-14. He won 7 games in his first season and 9 in his second season. (Am I remembering that correctly?) We are way more talented now than we were then.

Look at teams like NE... Tom Brady, 7th round pick? Wes Welker, undrafted free agent. Danny Woodhead, undrafted free agent. They win because the admin knows how to win. They won with Matt Cassell who had not played a snap of QB in like 6 years prior to the Brady injury.

Keeping consistently good staff is great... keeping consistently 5-11 staff... not so great.

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Keeping consistently good staff is great... keeping consistently 5-11 staff... not so great.

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Pittsburgh has had good personnel for years, they also have never changed their philosphy. When Tomlin came in he was a 4-3 coach, IMO the Rooney's told him it's Labeau's defense , hands off.


It is easy to say consistency builds winning, but this franchise has not had the right people at the top to build consistency. Lerner tried to copy NE, and it failed because he went about it wrong. Holmgren might fail, but the organization he is building at the top, could very well end the turnover we have seen. A philosophy has been put into place, one that has had success. People have been hired that believe in this philosophy, and I believe the team will be built with players who buy into it.

Once you have success, then you try to maintain continuity. There has been no success here in years, IMO that was due to a lack of vision and shared philosophy. Having guys like Homgren, Haskell, Heckert, and even Jauron, is a good start to building a consensus and a coherent strategy, using proven experienced people. I believe Lerner finally got it right, time will tell.