|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 187
Practice Squad
|
OP
Practice Squad
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 187 |
LINK Mike Holmgren inched a bit closer to declaring Colt McCoy as the Browns’ No. 1 quarterback. In a an interview this week on ESPN Chicago, the Browns’ president alluded to McCoy while explaining why he hired Pat Shurmur as head coach. “I hired Pat because I think we have a good young quarterback,” Holmgren said, “and I wanted an offensive-minded head coach. It pretty much boiled down to that. And, I wanted one familiar with the system I was familiar with.” The day Shurmur was hired, neither Holmgren nor General Manager Tom Heckert would say McCoy is good enough to keep them from spending their top pick in the draft, No. 6 overall, on a quarterback. In tying the Shurmur hire to McCoy, Holmgren came closer to identifying McCoy as the starting quarterback for 2011 and beyond. Holmgren appeared on “The Afternoon Saloon” program, one of whose hosts, John Jurkovic, was a defensive lineman on Holmgren’s Green Bay teams from 1992-95. Dick Jauron, the Browns’ new defensive coordinator, was a Packers coach when Jurkovic played in Green Bay. Explaining the Jauron hire to Jurkovic, Holmgren said: “He’s got a whole bunch of experience. I just thought it was important to get an experienced defensive coordinator because this is Pat’s first go-round as a head coach. I would hope that Pat would rely on Dick like I relied on Fritz when I was a young head coach.” Fritz Shurmur was Holmgren’s defensive coordinator and Jauron’s immediate superior in Green Bay. Acknowledging Pat Shurmur and Jauron, Holmgren said, “It fell into place. I feel very fortunate we got both of those guys. Now I’ve gotta find an offensive coordinator.” At that point, Jurkovic asked Holmgren, “Are you gonna do it? Holmgren replied, “I might. You know, I don’t remember making many bad calls. I really don’t.” It sounded like Holmgren was kidding. The hot topic on “The Afternoon Saloon” this week has been the Bears’ loss to Green Bay in Sunday’s NFC title game. One of the hosts asked Holmgren if he would mind letting the Bears have left tackle Joe Thomas. “Joe Thomas?” Holmgren replied with comically sarcastic inflection. “I don’t know a lot about my new job, except for the fact that Joe Thomas isn’t going anywhere. Nowhere.”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463 |
Quote:
Now I’ve gotta find an offensive coordinator.”
I wonder if that means that Holmgren is hiring the coordinator ....... or if it was just a slip?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Haven't we known all along that Holmgren likes McCoy?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 587 |
Quote:
Quote:
Now I’ve gotta find an offensive coordinator.”
I wonder if that means that Holmgren is hiring the coordinator ....... or if it was just a slip?
I'm guessing that MH has a lot of say who the Browns hire in any position. He might not be the GM but make no doubt about it....he is the boss.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463 |
I just thought that was kinda weird when he said earlier that Pat was going to be the one hiring the coaches .......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,193 Likes: 312
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,193 Likes: 312 |
I did`nt really see where they are identifying him as the starter...Giving reasons to a path they are looking to take... Shurmur may very well bring another QB in and sit Mcoy for another season or two... Untill it`s officially announced... we wait... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Quote:
“I hired Pat because I think we have a good young quarterback,” Holmgren said, “and I wanted an offensive-minded head coach. It pretty much boiled down to that. And, I wanted one familiar with the system I was familiar with.”
The title of the thread is "comes close to calling McCoy the man".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,549 Likes: 11
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,549 Likes: 11 |
I gotta feeling that no one will be hired unless everyone approves. Its a group effort and I have no problem with that set up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Quote:
I just thought that was kinda weird when he said earlier that Pat was going to be the one hiring the coaches .......
He probably just said that because it's his team.
By "I've" he probably meant "We've". Hopefully.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,850 Likes: 159
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,850 Likes: 159 |
Quote:
At that point, Jurkovic asked Holmgren, “Are you gonna do it?
Holmgren replied, “I might. You know, I don’t remember making many bad calls. I really don’t.”
It sounded like Holmgren was kidding.
Sounds like holmgren was having fun with it..
Quote:
Joe Thomas?” Holmgren replied with comically sarcastic inflection. “I don’t know a lot about my new job, except for the fact that Joe Thomas isn’t going anywhere. Nowhere.”
Music to my ears....LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,193 Likes: 312
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,193 Likes: 312 |
That might be the title... but how close ? So by hiring Shurmur makes Mcoy the starter ?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
It was at least part of the thought process.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,193 Likes: 312
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,193 Likes: 312 |
I agree with that 100 %....And most of us realizes MH`s intentions from the Hiring of Shurmur...I just did`nt read anything that made it sound any closer...
Like i mentioned in my other post... to me it just sounds like a path they are taking...That could be now or 3 years from now.... when Colt starts....
We don`t even have a name of the OC....I would think that would come before announcing if Colts the starter....jmo...
Last edited by DeisleDawg; 01/28/11 02:18 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
Just a question...
Why do you put your apostrophes the wrong way?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
Quote:
Now I’ve gotta find an offensive coordinator.”
I wonder if that means that Holmgren is hiring the coordinator ....... or if it was just a slip?
I think it means that he will have a big part in the decision and that he will ultimately write and sign the contract... .
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
Quote:
Quote:
Now I’ve gotta find an offensive coordinator.”
I wonder if that means that Holmgren is hiring the coordinator ....... or if it was just a slip?
Okay, everyone who really believes that Shurmur is hiring the coaching staff, please raise your hand.
Good.
Now pm me because I'm selling beautiful lake front property, as much as you want, for only $5000/acre. This is a great deal, you won't want to pass this up. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 Likes: 501 |
I don't think he's hiring the staff all by himself. That would be a dumb thing to do considering all the connections Holmgren has in the league.
But I'm guessing/hoping that if he absolutely didn't want a guy we wouldn't hire him. And I'm guessing/hoping that if he was dead set on hiring a guy we would try as hard as we could to get him.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,850 Likes: 159
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,850 Likes: 159 |
Quote:
That might be the title... but how close ? So by hiring Shurmur makes Mcoy the starter ?
How close you ask? I'd say it's a mortal lock!
Not reading anything into it,, just reading it..
Quote:
“I hired Pat because I think we have a good young quarterback,” Holmgren said, “and I wanted an offensive-minded head coach. It pretty much boiled down to that. And, I wanted one familiar with the system I was familiar with.”
This part: "I think we HAVE a good young quarterback"
If he'd have said he thinks we could draft a good young QB or we intend to acquire a good young QB, then I can see wiggle room. Hell, if he'd have said we want to DEVELOP a good young QB.. that would change the texture of the comment
But that's not what he said....
How close? So close you can smell it 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
So, exactly how much influence do you think Shurmur had in the Jauron hire? Maybe just a tad more than zero?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,549 Likes: 11
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,549 Likes: 11 |
Shurmur has known Jauron for a few decades and learned under Shurmur's uncle, so maybe just maybe there is a tiny chance that shurmur might have actually wanted to hire Jauron.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,517
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,517 |
Fritz was Jauron's boss ... now they are all one big happy family
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,482 Likes: 34
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,482 Likes: 34 |
Quote:
So, exactly how much influence do you think Shurmur had in the Jauron hire? Maybe just a tad more than zero?
I honestly don't think he had much input, I think it was Holmgren's call and that's a bad thing. Holmgren has "his way" and is bringing in the people who are willing to say "yes sir, no sir" to his system and decisions. He's managing/running/coaching this team just without the official titles.
That being said, if Jauron really was Shurmur's pick and not Holmgren's, then I'd say that's strike one against Shurmur during his brief HC career.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 385
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 385 |
Quote:
LINK
The hot topic on “The Afternoon Saloon” this week has been the Bears’ loss to Green Bay in Sunday’s NFC title game. One of the hosts asked Holmgren if he would mind letting the Bears have left tackle Joe Thomas.
“Joe Thomas?” Holmgren replied with comically sarcastic inflection. “I don’t know a lot about my new job, except for the fact that Joe Thomas isn’t going anywhere. Nowhere.”
Best part of the article..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,693 |
As you say, "maybe there's a tiny chance."
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
I wonder if that means that Holmgren is hiring the coordinator ....... or if it was just a slip?
Like Mourg said, I believe everyone has to be on board with any of these hires. But make no mistake, Holmgren has all the connections. He's the one who can get opinions about anyone since he likely knows someone who has worked with whomever at one time or another.
You didn't allude to it at all but I'm just making the statement that I don't believe Holmgren will push anyone on Shurmur. It would go against the unified philosophy he's set up.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463 |
However, we're just going with the assumption that it really is a "unified" philosophy. We believe this to be the case ...... and it appears to be the case that this is what's happening ..... but it's also entirely possible that this is Holmgren making decisions ..... and making decisions all the way down the chain.
I can't remember a head coach coming in and having the GM or Team President "helping" him set up his staff. Generally, a New Head Coach's "1st" staff is his ..... then his superiors make changes in later years if they feel the need to do.
I could see some good and bad to the Team President exerting influence in picking the coordinators and such. It definitely makes the head coach look weaker, because it does give the impression that he's not "really" in charge of the team. Everyone accepts that the head coach has a boss, but players generally see the head coach as "their" boss. If the head coach and assistants "all work for" the team president, that really diminishes the head coach IMHO.
I know ... I'm a hater or some such garbage that someone will throw my way ...... but this concerns me. Hopefully it will be nothing ..... but I see little reasons for concern here, and there, and a few more over there ...... and they are adding up to a potentially frightening picture before the new coach even gets set.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
I'm not sure why it concerns you, there isn't a thing you can do about it, however it plays out. All you can do is just sit back and watch it unfold with the rest of us and write your history piece after the fact.
So, relax.
Maybe some meditation.
HUMMM, HUMMM...
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,287 Likes: 347
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,287 Likes: 347 |
Quote:
It definitely makes the head coach look weaker, because it does give the impression that he's not "really" in charge of the team. Everyone accepts that the head coach has a boss, but players generally see the head coach as "their" boss. If the head coach and assistants "all work for" the team president, that really diminishes the head coach IMHO.
I agree. I think the HC has to feel very comfortable with the assistants, including the co-ordinators. Nothing wrong with input from everyone, and there shoud be.
But remember, even after Mangini was axed he said that Holmgren was very fair, and let him coach his way. I doubt Holmgren would give Shurmur an assistant he doesn't want, just like he said he wouldn't give Mangini a player he didn't want (and it appears he didn't, considering Mangini's words after he was fired).
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463 |
It concerns me because I give a damn about how this team does on the field ..... and how it does on the field is a reflection of how it does off the field ...... I would definitely like a winning team sometime over the rest of my lifetime ..... and it seems like we blow things up to get better ...... and then blow things up again whether or not we get better, just so we can start over and go in a new direction ....... I have this sick image in the back of my mind where it is 3 years from now ...... and we're starting over again .... with a Belichick style offense and a 3-4 defense .... and we're scrapping everything again ..... and I think part of that is the fact that this is what seems to happen around here .... and the other part is all of these little fractures that seems to be just under the surface already. However, other front offices have talked unity and continuity and blown up, so maybe this one will be different. They say that you can give a bunch of monkeys a bunch of computers and sooner ot later 1 of them will produce a coherent literary work ....... so I have to wonder why we struggle year after year after year after year after coach after coach after coach after coach ........ 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,287 Likes: 347
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,287 Likes: 347 |
actually it's 1,000 monkeys, 1,000 typewriters and 1,000 years. 
gmstrong -----------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,549 Likes: 11
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,549 Likes: 11 |
Quote:
However, we're just going with the assumption that it really is a "unified" philosophy. We believe this to be the case ...... and it appears to be the case that this is what's happening ..... but it's also entirely possible that this is Holmgren making decisions ..... and making decisions all the way down the chain.
Its also possible that he eats small children, farts in church and molests old ladies.
Quote:
I can't remember a head coach coming in and having the GM or Team President "helping" him set up his staff. Generally, a New Head Coach's "1st" staff is his ..... then his superiors make changes in later years if they feel the need to do.
Lets see Pitt, Dallas, Oakland, Miami all come to mind.
Quote:
I know ... I'm a hater or some such garbage that someone will throw my way ...... but this concerns me. Hopefully it will be nothing ..... but I see little reasons for concern here, and there, and a few more over there ...... and they are adding up to a potentially frightening picture before the new coach even gets set.
Dude you have gone off the deep end on this stuff. I expect the hateraide from knightofbrown but man you are just as bad.
You guys were crucifying Holmgren when you thought he would coach. He said he didnt want to coach and you guys have ripped on him for keeping Mangini for year 2.
You thought Gruden would get the job so you began ripping him for not being consistent. You ripped Holmgren for having someone turn down an interview. You rip him because someone took a job elsewhere.
It didnt matter who Holmgren hired. It doesnt matter who is hired as an assistant. You guys seem bound and determined to bitch and moan at every single decision that is made. It is absurd.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 974 |
Quote:
LINK
Mike Holmgren inched a bit closer to declaring Colt McCoy as the Browns’ No. 1 quarterback.
Isn't the head coach supposed to do that?
oh wait.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Maybe .. unless you're Jeff Fisher ..
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463 |
Quote:
actually it's 1,000 monkeys, 1,000 typewriters and 1,000 years.
Maybe we better get those damn monkeys working ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
Dude you have gone off the deep end on this stuff. I expect the hateraide from knightofbrown but man you are just as bad.
You guys were crucifying Holmgren when you thought he would coach. He said he didnt want to coach and you guys have ripped on him for keeping Mangini for year 2.
You thought Gruden would get the job so you began ripping him for not being consistent. You ripped Holmgren for having someone turn down an interview. You rip him because someone took a job elsewhere.
It didnt matter who Holmgren hired. It doesnt matter who is hired as an assistant. You guys seem bound and determined to bitch and moan at every single decision that is made. It is absurd.
You said it perfectly, bro. It has gotten so bad that I don't even read some of these guy's posts anymore.
I just don't get the love for a guy that isn't even close to a winning record as a HC. And make no mistake they aren't questioning every decision because the decisions are questionable. Nope, it's because, just like a child, when they don't get their way they throw a tantrum.
It's painful to read at this point.
Jesus, what will it be like once we actually start playing games?...... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,411 Likes: 463 |
Quote:
You guys were crucifying Holmgren when you thought he would coach. He said he didnt want to coach and you guys have ripped on him for keeping Mangini for year 2.
Actually, I didn't rip him for keeping Mangini for year 2. I did rip him for not keeping a guy I felt had the team on a path to winning ..... and there's a difference. However, I then also said that there might be some advantage to having all of the people in the organization on the exact same page.
I did question why he kept Mangini, and opined, based on his extensive 16 hour or so evaluation of Mangini following the season, that Holmgren had already planned on Mangini being a 1 year Head Coach, and kept him for that year because no one he wanted as Head Coach wanted to come into the wreck that was the Browns a year ago.
Holmgren did say that he would go through an extensive review and evaluation of the team and coaches after the season was over.
That extensive review and evaluation lasted 16 hours. Actually less, as he announced the press conference the night before. I sated that I thought that a review, as promised by the team President following the season, should last longer than that. It was a pre-determined outcome ....and that's Holmgren's right ..... but it doesn't mean that I have to see it as the right decision.
He's allowed to do what he wants. He is the President. I am allowed to disagree with any, some, all, or none of his decisions. I am allowed to question motives. I have exactly the same rights as anyone else.
I notice that you didn't rally the troops in support of Holmgren's decision to keep Mangini after the 2009 season, and throughout the 2010 season. I notice that you didn't call for civility and a non judgemental attitude during the season. You didn't have to either. You disagreed with the decisions and direction, and had a right to express that ..... just as I have a right to do so now. Season's over, a change is made, and suddenly no one is allowed to have an opinon? Why is that?
Quote:
You thought Gruden would get the job so you began ripping him for not being consistent.
I'm not sure what you even mean here? I didn't want Gruden as Head Coach. That was a consistent position on my part. I didn't feel that Gruden was the right coach for this team, and stated why. Maybe you meant that I didn't feel that Gruden won consistently? Well, if that's the case, than that is true. He didn't win consistently. His teams were up and down ..... win one year ..... 4-12 the next. he took over a Super Bowl caliber team in Tampa Bay and had 4 winning seasons and 3 losing seasons. He made the playoffs only 3 times. That's not terribly impressive. Hell, Tomlin took over a team on a slight downturn after a Super Bowl and had reeled off 4 straight winning seasons, 3 playoff spots, 2 Super Bowl appearances, and 1 Super Bowl win. Much as I hate the Steelers, that's a successful coach.
Dungy left Tampa and went to Indy where they made the playoffs each and every year. They won at least 10 games every year. They were consistently good. They didn't nosedive to poor results every other year on average. Dungy won a Super Bowl with Indy too. Dungy took over an up and down Indy team and made them consistently good. Dungy had 1 losing season in 6 years in Tampa. Gruden has 3 in 7 seasons.
I'm not, and have never been a huge Gruden fan. I don't think that he's a particularly good, long term coach.
Quote:
You ripped Holmgren for having someone turn down an interview. You rip him because someone took a job elsewhere.
No, I stated that reporters, especially those close to the team, have pretty good sources within the team. When a source within the team says that a guy is signing here .... then he suddenly reverses course and goes elsewhere .... then another similar situation happens with another guy .... well, if that was Mangini interviewing coordinators, and the exact same thing happened, you, and others with similar opinions, would be all over Mangini, wondering what was wrong. You know what? So would I.
Quote:
It didnt matter who Holmgren hired. It doesnt matter who is hired as an assistant.
Not really, but think whatever you want.
I didn't like the Shurmur hire, and stated my reasons why. I compared and contrasted the Rams offense with a #1 overall QB compared to our offense with Jake flippin Delhomme, Wallace, and a 3rd round rookie, and found the 2 offenses to be remarkably similar as far as results go. Some people think that doesn't matter ... that our new head coach had the worst offense in the NFL last year, and an offense that was barely better than our offense, which changed QBs 4 or 5 times ..... and had many people calling for our Offensive Coordinator's head.
I wonder if people would have been excited if Holmgren would have promoted Daboll? That is, basically, the production we picked up as head coach. He's had 2 lousy years as coordinator of lousy offenses. I'm sorry if that impresses you, but it doesn't impress me.
I also stated who I wanted as coordinator, and backed it up with reasons and statistical results. I stated why Jauron worries me, and backed it up with reasons and results. People whined and cried that I was just being a hater. I back up what I say. That's more than most of the blinders crowd will ever do,
Regardless, Shurmur is our head coach, so I hope he will be successful. I doubt that he will be, but I hope that he will be nonetheless.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
However, we're just going with the assumption that it really is a "unified" philosophy. We believe this to be the case ...... and it appears to be the case that this is what's happening ..... but it's also entirely possible that this is Holmgren making decisions ..... and making decisions all the way down the chain.
The reason it "appears" to be the case is because Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur have all worked under the same philosophy for the majority of their careers. This is nothing like Savage and RAC who seemed to be on the same page but were miles apart in their individual experiences and football fields apart in their philosophies.
Our football coach and FO guys have all come from the same philosophy so it stands to reason that they are still of the same philosophy now. Heckert was hired in no small part because of his philosophy on how to build a team and that philosophy matches Holmgren's own philosophy. Likewise, Shurmur was likely hired in no small part because he too worked in and came from the same philosophy as Holmgren and Heckert. That puts the three of them on the same page. Not agreeing to be on the same page, but rather embedded on that page through their own experiences and beliefs on how to build a team.
Quote:
I can't remember a head coach coming in and having the GM or Team President "helping" him set up his staff. Generally, a New Head Coach's "1st" staff is his ..... then his superiors make changes in later years if they feel the need to do.
I can't remember ever hearing enough about whether or not a GM or team president has helped their head coach set up his staff. I honestly don't ever remember hearing the inside scoop on that stuff.
But it would make all the sense in the world to me if it were common across the league. Especially if the team president was a man of Holmgren's prior head coaching experience which I'd guess very few of them are.
Holmgren coached for 17 years, sat out one year and then became our president. He knows people all over the league. He's likely got a list for every possible job that would need to be filled if he were going to coach again, people he knows and trusts as good coaches. Why wouldn't he pull that list out now and help his new head coach in his search for his staff?
I'm sure Shurmur has his own list. But his list would be nowhere near as exhaustive as Holmgren's. If you put the two lists together you might be able to come up with a pretty good idea of some people who Shurmur would like to work with. Some of those coaches will already be working, some out of the league, some looking for a job and some looking to advance. In the end, what difference does it make whose list they came from? Just so long as they are a good fit for the head coach and the team's direction.
So they put their heads together, Holmgren, Heckert and Shurmur, and they prioritize a list of available candidates who fit the coach, the scheme, the direction and the philosophy. What could possibly be wrong with that?
In so far as a head coach's superiors making staff changes in later years, the only reference I have to that is Savage stepping in and choosing an OC for RAC. I have no idea of this happening to any other head coach. I do remember Modell trying to do that to Marty and Marty said, "Screw you", and walked.
Quote:
I could see some good and bad to the Team President exerting influence in picking the coordinators and such. It definitely makes the head coach look weaker, because it does give the impression that he's not "really" in charge of the team. Everyone accepts that the head coach has a boss, but players generally see the head coach as "their" boss. If the head coach and assistants "all work for" the team president, that really diminishes the head coach IMHO.
The good in it is that Holmgren was a successful coach for so long. That his influence is likely greatly appreciated by Shurmur. It doesn't make the head coach look "weaker" just because he values the opinion of his HOF coach turned president unless he agrees to hire someone in whom he doesn't really believe will work out in the end.
Neither do I see where it give any impression that Shurmur is not in charge of the team. Holmgren is not likely to push anyone onto Shurmur if Shurmur is not completely sold on the person. If he did then he is going against his own beliefs. Holmgren coached. He knows it would be destructive to the team to push someone onto the coach of whom the coach is not convinced is the right guy. I doubt very much Holmgren would knowingly do anything that would be destructive to the team. And he knows that this would be.
The Head Coach works for the GM and the President. Everyone else on the team works for the Head Coach regardless of how many people aided in the search for the staff and the players.
Why would you have a team President with so much head coaching experience and a GM with so much league experience both sitting in their respective offices keeping a hands-off approach while their head coach goes on a lone mission to find and hire his staff?
Frankly, if that were happening I'd be wondering why the hell are those guys sitting on their duffs and not supporting their head coach in whom they have such great hopes in his being successful. Does that even make any sense at all? They need to be helping and supporting the head coach in any way possible.
Not only do I see no reason for any negative concern here, but rather I see the coming together of a President, a GM and a Head Coach in a single direction of using all the resources available to them for the good of the team.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
That extensive review and evaluation lasted 16 hours. Actually less, as he announced the press conference the night before. I sated that I thought that a review, as promised by the team President following the season, should last longer than that. It was a pre-determined outcome ....and that's Holmgren's right ..... but it doesn't mean that I have to see it as the right decision.
I can't believe you still think that.
How about he evaluated each game after it was played?
How about he spent a good portion of each week following the game by thinking it over, watching film, evaluating the head coaches decisions?
How about while doing that after each game he also took into consideration the talent on the team and how it was used in that game?
How about he had discussions with the head coach nearly, if not daily, on team matters and he evaluated the head coach after each of those meetings?
How about he did this 16 times throughout the course of the season, each time comparing his evaluation of each game with his evaluations of the previous games?
How about when he was asked to disclose his evaluation of the head coach and the team he waived that off by saying he'll do his evaluation, (tell us what he thinks), at the end of the season?
How about you took that to mean that he would do absolutely no evaluations what-so-ever until the last game was played and then he would start his evaluation by taking a month or so to go over each game before he would let us know what his evaluation is?
How about you are simply looking at this in some cockeyed manner?
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 Likes: 516
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 Likes: 516 |
j/c
Here's the problem: every 2.4 years on average, we get a new coach. Every time, everyone is all excited, all "this one is the one that will do it for us".
Toss out the "old", and bring in the new - that's all we need. (that's the sentiment anyway)
Palmer was supposed to be a great q.b. coach. Everyone was pumped up.
Whoever was next as coach was supposed to be "the guy we need."
Butch Davis was "exactly what we need".
Romeo was "the best choice. Exactly what we need."
I'm not happy about the new coach, and I'm not sad or frustrated with the new coach. And I certainly am NOT getting on the "hey, now we have a coach that's on the same page as the front office" band wagon.......the "now that our coach and front office agree, we'll go places" bandwagon.
It gets old - every 2.4 years (on average), saying "oh yeah, here we go. This is just what we needed."
I'll reserve my judgment for a couple years down the road.
Those of you that are all excited and agog about this hire and this front office - good for you. I see no reason to be pumped up. I see no reason to be more upset.
We're changing systems, yet again. 2 years won't be enough for Shurmur.....but that may be all he gets. Yet again.
And if, IF, that happens............whenever a new coach is named people will go all ga ga over him saying "this is exactly what we need" yet one more time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Arch, you make very good points as they are all undeniable, we've all lived through them.
I'm not giddy over what has transpired and am more reserved than I may appear. But I do appreciate that for the first time since our return we have a football man in charge of our football team. That simply has to count for something.
What that is remains to be seen.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren comes close to calling
McCoy 'the man'
|
|
![[Linked Image from netanimations.net]](http://netanimations.net/Moving-picture-dog-with-a-bone-animated-gif.gif)
