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it seems like we blow things up to get better ...... and then blow things up again whether or not we get better, just so we can start over and go in a new direction .......
I have this sick image in the back of my mind where it is 3 years from now ...... and we're starting over again .... with a Belichick style offense and a 3-4 defense .... and we're scrapping everything again .....
However, other front offices have talked unity and continuity and blown up, so maybe this one will be different. . so I have to wonder why we struggle year after year after year after year after coach after coach after coach after coach ........ 
It's Free Agency. The Browns have gone about it all wrong,
they always bring in some free agent instead of building through the draft, It goes back to that runninback from the Giants via Denver before Jamal lewis,
Did the Browns draft a runningback in the last 5 years, Yes, Who? Jerome Harrison, Where is he now? He's a backup for Philadelphia,
So what of his replacement? He's Who? Hardesty ? or Hillis ?
Hillis got 1200 + or - yards HOORAY Hardesty ? injured reserve.
Good news or bad news... ( in the long run, Bad News, because Hillis ? is he going to leave in free agency or be re-signed in free agency by the Browns so he can have his 4th and 5th productive year in a Browns Uniform? Let's see.
Every time a free agent from another team gets a start it means a draft pick didn't get that start, and you didn't develop that draft pick into a player who would later leave in free agency and give you the GOLD OF THE FREE AGENT ERA, the supplemental draft pick.
Look at LeCharles Bentley?
The Browns had a center, Wolobaugh, or they drafted Faine, the drafted Fowler, and they had on the roster Shaun Ohara.
LeCharles Bentley . Big free agent signing, Everybody else has to go, Gone ! don't keep a one of them. Then, injury on the first play.. and you have revolving centers until Hank Fraley pans out, but he wasn't a 1st round draft pick or even a 3rd rounder, he was the best they could find.
Where did Ohara and Faine end up... Starting for other teams, did they get Supplemental draft picks for them? NO did they commit to developing talent they drafted?
What happened to Kw2, 2 years of injuries, and he came back and PLAYED GREAT! and didn't want to stay, or somehow it didnt' work out, He's in another uniform
Dqwell Jackson... 2 years of really good play, 2 years of injuries...
Are they trying to Sign him?
Are they going to get another teams free agent?
If you want to win, you have to keep the team together. You have to build through the draft. You have to develop players.
You have to be innovative, and unpredictable in how you perform on the field.
Are or Were all free agent signings bad? No, but to make a habit of 6+ every year.
Keep the team together, support your guys.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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It didnt matter who Holmgren hired. It doesnt matter who is hired as an assistant. You guys seem bound and determined to bitch and moan at every single decision that is made. It is absurd.
Sure as hell is...Actually it's exhausting...
And let's not forget Holmgren's shoving these coordinator candidates down Shurmur's throat... 
Sick of losing and constant turnover is understandable...But the same one's who wanted Mangini to stick are the same one's who won't give any of this even a CHANCE to get rollin'...
It's rather comical...
Go Browns!!!
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It concerns me because I give a damn about how this team does on the field ..... and how it does on the field is a reflection of how it does off the field ......
I would definitely like a winning team sometime over the rest of my lifetime ..... and it seems like we blow things up to get better ...... and then blow things up again whether or not we get better, just so we can start over and go in a new direction .......
I have this sick image in the back of my mind where it is 3 years from now ...... and we're starting over again .... with a Belichick style offense and a 3-4 defense .... and we're scrapping everything again ..... and I think part of that is the fact that this is what seems to happen around here .... and the other part is all of these little fractures that seems to be just under the surface already.
However, other front offices have talked unity and continuity and blown up, so maybe this one will be different. They say that you can give a bunch of monkeys a bunch of computers and sooner ot later 1 of them will produce a coherent literary work ....... so I have to wonder why we struggle year after year after year after year after coach after coach after coach after coach ........
First we all give a damn about this team, but what does your concern get you, a slamming your head into a brick wall icon? Do you see your blood pressure rising some? It's a counter productive reaction because you can't effect change. You can only sit back and root the team on.
Sure we've tried this coach or this scheme and nothing has been working consistently the way we all want it to work. So we've reloaded and are trying again. This time however we have a highly respected football guy running things and a solid GM who picked some really good players for this team last year. We had a decent draft with productive players, maybe, just maybe our prez and GM can pick a really good coach for us too. Maybe they have a plan that will work. Do I know this, nope, but then again, no one can say it won't work yet either. It's easy at this point for me to support their efforts because I have no say in the matter and they know a hell of a lot more about their business than I do.
So instead of all the negativity and bashing that won't have any more effect on the team than others cheering, you should give cheering a try, at the very least your blood pressure will come down. Unless of course you want to wallow about in the joy of "I told you so", if this doesn't work. But since I've been reading your posts now for 10 years, you've never been that kind of a person.
Does today offer promise and tomorrow hope? Sure does, if you let it.
#GMSTRONG
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Dude you have gone off the deep end on this stuff. I expect the hateraide from knightofbrown but man you are just as bad.
You guys were crucifying Holmgren when you thought he would coach. He said he didnt want to coach and you guys have ripped on him for keeping Mangini for year 2.
You thought Gruden would get the job so you began ripping him for not being consistent. You ripped Holmgren for having someone turn down an interview. You rip him because someone took a job elsewhere.
It didnt matter who Holmgren hired. It doesnt matter who is hired as an assistant. You guys seem bound and determined to bitch and moan at every single decision that is made. It is absurd.
mourg...your response to YTown and reference to Knight of Brown...is right on target.
If these two hate Holmgren and Lerner so much, why would they want to be a Browns fan? I don't get it...really !
If all these "folks" are going to do is bitch and moan about everything this franchise is trying to do...why be a Browns fan?
Now they will respond with how long they have been a Browns fan and how much they love the Browns, attempting to show that they really do care about the Browns.
...then they will start pissing and moaning about something else Holmgren is trying to do or someone he hired.
YTown..K of B...Randy Lerner will continue to be the owner of the Browns regardless of your negativism toward RL and the Browns.
Holmgren is here to stay and all your negativism toward him and the Browns, will not affect anything he is trying to do.
I do not understand the logic of opposing the change that Lerner and Holmgren are trying bring about, transforming the Browns into winners again.
I do know, that some things in life are unexplainable and defy common sense...those opposed to changing the Browns from losers to winners would fall into that category.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I guess that I've become cynical.
I saw a team that was improving, so we blow it up. Then we hire a guy who was horrible as an offensive coordinator to be our head coach. Then we hire a guy with a defensive philosophy that is a recipe for disaster in a tough, physical, running division like the AFCN.
I suppose that I might have a reason or 2 to be a little concerned.
I can't do anything about it .... of course not. None of us can. If that is our only criteria for commenting, then no one can ever make a comment, because none of us can effect what happens on the field.
That doesn't mean that I can, or should just sit back and be apathetic and say "well, whatever happens happens, and I don't care if we win or lose." If I get to that point, I might as well give up being a fan.
I find it amusing that I (and others) am attacked by some who think that we are on a stairway to heaven, and that only a heretic would question the approach we're taking. I question this approach. I question whether or not it will be successful in out division. I saw this team finally on a path that mirrored the consistently successful teams in our division, then we dumped that approach to change direction again. I question the wisdom in that. I thought that a message board was to exchange ideas ..... and to defend and back up your arguments with facts, stats, and past history. If that makes me a "bad fan", then I guess I'm guilty.
I get so tired of people telling me that I shoulkd just trust whatever Holmgren does because he's had success as a coach in the past. I can hope that the path we're on will succeed while doubting that it will be. If he, and the new regime, succeed, then I will be first in line to say that I was wrong, just like I did when Robiske started to show signs of growth. If they don;t succeed, I'm not going to say "Oh well, Holmgren had success as a coach elsewhere ........"
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Okay, you win, be grumpy!  Oh and I hope you don't feel I've attacked you or called you a bad fan.
#GMSTRONG
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I saw a team that was improving, so we blow it up
There were 2 things that improved from the beginning of the season to the end. McCoy and Haden. Other than that we went downhill.
If I thought for one minute that any of your many gripes were actually about the matter that you are posting about at the moment and not about Mangini getting the axe then they might have some weight.
But you've gone past that point long ago.
You say you're tired of people telling you this or that. Imagine how tired we all are of reading post after post of nothing but negativity. I'm waiting for the post where you or K of B gripe about Holmgren getting a parking spot close to the front door in Berea.
Seriously, you can think and post whatever you like but don't act surprised and offended when people call it for what it is.......sour grapes.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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j/c
Here's the problem: every 2.4 years on average, we get a new coach. Every time, everyone is all excited, all "this one is the one that will do it for us".
This is the first time a lot of things have been different in that regard.
1) Colt McCoy- No one was screaming START him like we had with Charlie Frye and Brady Quinn. We all HOPE that Colt can do well, but we are being more realistic in a sense that we know he has to follow that learning curve so to say.
2) Shurmur- No one hardly even knows the guy. No one is saying, OKAY, we have our top dog now. We are all just kind of waiting, and just hoping the pick was the right one. We brought in Romeo, and he was okay... but he had no coaching experience and just had one winning season. Brought in an "experienced" coach (sort of), and he got us 5 wins both seasons, but he did lay the foundation to helping a team understand the fundamentals of football. Now we get an offensive minded guy to groom a young talented QB, and we can just hope for the best.
I think the best think we have in our favor is Heckert. Last year's draft, in the first few rounds atleast, really came through with the exception of Shawn Lavaou. I still don't understand that pick, but no one can bat 100. No one.
I'm just waiting for the draft, hope a LOT of things fall our way, and that we field a complete team on all three phases of the game.
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
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Actually, we were, up till the final game, the only team in the NFL that hadn't given up 30 points or more in a game.
We wound up 14th in scoring defense.
We went through 3 different QBs, and won at least 1 game with each.
We started a 3rd round rookie who was "figured out" at the end of the year.
We suffered major injuries, and on a team without depth, these injuries hurt a lot more than a team like the Packers or Steelers who have built up depth over the past several years.
We saw this team get blown out routinely last year. This year we saw them close the gap against even better competition.
Then we blew up what we had. We will change offense amd defense. The offense ... meh. We didn;t have an established QB so changing the offense isn't of a great deal of consequence. Whether or not Shurmur is the right guy to help develop a rookie QB .... well, let's hope he is.
Defensively, I have already laid out in great detail why I have concerns there. We'll see what happens on that side of the ball. I bet that we give up more points next year against weaker competition than we did this past year against one of the harderst schedules in the NFL.
If our defense improves in scoring, I'll say I was wrong. Will you do the same if we give up more points? What are your criteria for success? How do we judge the incoming staff and team? Do we have to win a certain number of games? Do we have to attain specific rankings on offense or defense, or in scoring or scoring defense? How will you judge the team for improvement or regression? What, exactly, is your criteria? What if we go through 3 different QBs again next year? Do you allow for that?
In short, how will you judge the success of next year's team? I would really like to know. You seem stuck on this "Mangini's gone so things are great" broken record, so what will be a successful year next year? What are the minimum standards?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I perfectly understand the reasoning behind some of your doubts, just like I understand Tulsa's thoughts on having some faith (not absolute faith, just some faith) that Holmgren and Heckert can get it done or us.
I wanted to keep Mangini but I knew he had some drawbacks, too. All I or any of us can do is hope the new guy is the right guy.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Everyone will always have their own standards in judging. I see bad football like Miami and Carolina, win or lose, and it is judged harshly. I see blatant incompetence in decision making like in the overtime against the jets and buffalo loss, it is judged harshly.
A good game plan, making sound decisions even in a loss can receive praise. We had a few of those last year and this year.
One more thing. I know its a bit off topic but as bad as Daboll was and boy he was bad, I dont think he is the main reason things did go bad. I trace it back to the Lions preseason game.
When Suh tried to rip Jake's head from his shoulders and no player responded other than Jake, the season was doomed. The toughness and togetherness was lost. When Harrison laid out Cribbs and MoMass with cheap shots, no one responded. Hell the team got punched in the gut and they laid down and quit.
I think this is going to be the biggest challenge for Shurmur and company. Can he build a group that will fight for each other? Can Heckert find leaders for this team?
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Y'town, like most others on here, I have enjoyed reading you for the last 10 yrs. Some of you guys have forgot more football than i'll ever know. Having said that, I think it was painfully obvious that by the last part of the season, for whatever reason, Ginni just was not willing to go the next step with the offense. I don't think it was all about injuries either. The last 4 games was just to much willing to settle for a punt & let the D take over. I think H&H gave Ginni as much time as they could. I think they both liked certain parts of the work that was being done. However, even I could see it was not meant to be. The differences were to great. Daboll was willing to settle for anything the D gave him but not take any chances at all, and I think that drove H&H crazy. Ginni was never going to play to win, He liked keeping things close & going for the win late. Playing not to lose. As much as I hate to say it, I think certain posters on here were right, We might win a few that way, but we won't be a complete team until we play to win. So while I liked the way Ginni set up the team, I thinks it's time to move up the ladder now with a more open O. If Ginni would have replaced Daboll, even mid-season, & let Haskell take over he might have stayed, but Ginni did what he did, & now it's Holmy's turn. GO! BROWNS!
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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Here's the problem: every 2.4 years on average, we get a new coach. Every time, everyone is all excited, all "this one is the one that will do it for us".
Toss out the "old", and bring in the new - that's all we need. (that's the sentiment anyway)
Palmer was supposed to be a great q.b. coach. Everyone was pumped up.
Whoever was next as coach was supposed to be "the guy we need."
Butch Davis was "exactly what we need".
Romeo was "the best choice. Exactly what we need."
I'm not happy about the new coach, and I'm not sad or frustrated with the new coach. And I certainly am NOT getting on the "hey, now we have a coach that's on the same page as the front office" band wagon.......the "now that our coach and front office agree, we'll go places" bandwagon.
It gets old - every 2.4 years (on average), saying "oh yeah, here we go. This is just what we needed."
I'll reserve my judgment for a couple years down the road.
Those of you that are all excited and agog about this hire and this front office - good for you. I see no reason to be pumped up. I see no reason to be more upset.
We're changing systems, yet again. 2 years won't be enough for Shurmur.....but that may be all he gets. Yet again.
And if, IF, that happens............whenever a new coach is named people will go all ga ga over him saying "this is exactly what we need" yet one more time.
here's where the thread should've ended. could you condense this into a sig for me, ARCH? 
Browns fans are born with it...
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j/c
There's not a fan on this board, or a Browns fan in the world that doesn't want, wish, and hope for success under the new coaching regime. I'm sure we're all realistic enough to realize that success will probably not come in 2011, but we're hoping for a great overall defensive draft, and a proven receiver, either acquired in the draft or through free agency. We'll likely be very active in FA on the defensive side as well.
Realistically I think, now, we're probably farther along offensively than we are defensively, simply because we're changing systems and it's going to take a serious influx of defensive personnel to field a dominant 4-3 defense. That will take time. I still think the changeover is a mistake, but it's the system everyone from the president on down is familiar with, so that is what we go with.
Offensively, we're only a few pieces away, possibly from showing some production. We need to shore up the right side of the line, starting with a young, dominant RT, another solid RB, and we need a #1 WR. We also could use a few other pieces, like a developmental LG, and other developmental players. So if we do pick up a WR and a RT, and if Hardesty can come back healthy, we keep our TEs, and Robo, Mo-Mass & Stucky, and if Lauvao pans out, then we could reasonably expect to put up a productive offense, assuming McCoy improves, we keep a back-up that fits the system, and everyone adapts quickly to the new scheme.
I think most informed fans might agree with much that I've said here, because most of it is obvious. Of course, not everyone will agree with everything because we all have differing opinions on O & D philosophies and personnel needs. But as a whole, most informed fans have a decent grip on where we are talent-wise, as compared to the top teams in the league, and compared to the division in general. Bottom line, we're going to need several very good drafts to become a power house no matter who is coaching, no matter what systems we run.
I think, and it's JMHO, where some of us part ways, is where the "Blind Faith in Holmgren" fans butt heads with the "We Were Showing Improvement On The Field" school. I happen to fall into the latter category, and the reason is simple: execution and production. We were starting to see some, and IMHO we were a couple of good drafts and off-seasons away from truly competing, and possibly even becoming dominant.
Now that's been blown to hell, and we have to start all over with a complete unknown set of entities, with an entirely new, (and IMO inferior,) defensive system, and the only thing to really hang our hat on is, "Holmgren's in charge". In my book, as a fan, right now, that's not enough. I've laid out my reasoning regarding my opinion of Holmgren in detail in previous posts, so I won't do it again, but the bottom line for me is, he didn't impress me in Seattle, and now, I'm not enamored with his coaching choices.
That doesn't mean that I won't take a wait and see approach, and it doesn't mean that I'm not dying to see a system in place where everyone is on the same page. I would love to see a WCO coupled with a 4-3 D come along and blow everyone away. I would love to see the Browns become unstoppable like the 49ers of the 80's. Problem is, even if McCoy is the next Joe Montana, I doubt Shurmur is the next Bill Walsh, and it bothers me that Holmgren was either unwilling or unable to find the guy who might be. It bothers me that, by all appearances, he's coaching by proxy, and if something doesn't fit his particular system, or fall from his specific tree, regardless of league-wide success rate, it has no place here.
Maybe this style of management will work, God knows we all "hope" it will, but some of us don't have the blind faith that others do. That doesn't mean we're bad fans, or hope for failure, it just means that we have concerns, and know, KNOW, that we have at least one more year of mediocre or even poor play ahead of us while we rebuild and get the proper personnel in place.
The question that looms largest in my mind is, was the rebuild initiated to build a better performing, more solidly, long term competitive team built to dominate the division, or was is initiated merely to accommodate the president's comfort zone?
This is a rhetorical question in the sense that we will never actually know the truth, only whether the outcome is successful or not. And this we most likely won't know for several years. We know what the official answer would be, so it's pointless to even ask. In the mean time, we wait and we hope.
Personally, I'm excited about the draft and FA. I'm really looking forward to an influx of talent. I would have felt the same way if Mangini were still here, so in that sense nothing has changed. What I wonder about are the O & D systems, and how they will fare within the division and within the league in general. I wonder about the locker room, the team chemistry and the production and execution on the field. Regarding these things, I'm not excited, not yet. Frankly, I'm nervous and it's mixed with a little (possibly unfounded) dread.
Does that make me, or others with these types of questions, bad fans? Does that make us disloyal? Is it ridiculous to question the decision making at this point, so early, when we've seen nothing on the field? No. It just means that we're giving it thought. That we're basing our opinions on what we've witnessed throughout the years as fans and as observers, colored through the lenses of our own personal biases, prejudices and experiences.
What I find amazing here, is the animosity toward the fellow fans. The calling out and the bashing for no other reason than a disagreement of opinion about the direction of the football team. Some of the malicious, acerbic insults which are substituted for reasonable discussion make me a little ashamed to read the board at times. The ganging up and the repetitive spewing of over-used rhetoric does nothing to strengthen the "Blind Faith" argument just like shouting louder and longer does nothing to prove any point. Most of the points that are put forward are put there to generate discussion to help us all understand. Disagreement is not unhealthy. Disliking and disrespecting each other for disagreeing is.
Frankly, I would like to hear more about why we should be optimistic, other than, "Holmgren is a football guy, and he's in charge," "Everyone will now be on the same page," "Holmgren was a good coach," or "We just have to wait and see." What about this changeover, in your minds, will really make us more competitive on the field, and how will our personnel match-ups give us a clear advantage to ultimately win the division and go deep into the play-offs, year in and year out, and eventually win a Super Bowl? That, ultimately, is where we all want to go, regardless of who is in charge. I know we can all agree on that.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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While I am thinking about it, did anybody notice the Saint's, Pat's and Jet's games were all open Offense and attack. I'm just wondering if since we lost those opening games, that Holmy got Daboll some help for those games we really took off in. What happened after the Jet's game? We went back in our shell. I think Holmy was trying to show Ginni & Co. what a good Offense looked like. It seems like Ginni went back to whatever Daboll wanted to do rather than keep up with what they were doing. I still think those games were being called by someone else. The differences in the game plans really stand out. Why we went back to what did not work is beyond me. I think Ginni was trying to show Holmy it could work either way. Thats why he is gone.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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What I find amazing here, is the animosity toward the fellow fans. The calling out and the bashing for no other reason than a disagreement of opinion about the direction of the football team.
I don't think it's so much about bashing posters as it has to do with no matter what the FO does, some posters are now like D'jango was with Ginni. Slam, Slam, Slam. It gets old, it's time to move on & hope for the best.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow
#GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
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It gets old, it's time to move on & hope for the best.
That's actually kind of funny, since the coaching change is only a couple weeks old, and we had to put up with the "Gini bashing" (which was and still is actual bashing) for two solid years. Where was the "move on and hope for the best" crowd then? lol. FO questioning is only called bashing by those who disagree. There is nothing wrong with questioning or discussing the decisions or the decision making process. It's helps to enlighten and inform, the problem is the poster bashing... that gets old. We're all hoping for the best. After all, it's all we can do, isn't it? That and discuss the moves.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Throw long, you have another good point., One of the biggest failures of all adminstrations the browns have had since 1999 is drafting and general aqusition of talent. Each coach has had issues with the talent level. Not one of them have been blessed with teams that could be coached by Hall of Fame coaches and done a whole lot better IMO. Be that as it may, It appears  That we have a guy in Heckert that can get the talent needed to succeed. Is Shurmur the answer as HC.. honestly, I don't know. We'll see I guess. But damn sure,, if you don't have the talent, Paul Brown couldn't make a silk purse out of a sows ear...
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While I am thinking about it, did anybody notice the Saint's, Pat's and Jet's games were all open Offense and attack. I'm just wondering if since we lost those opening games, that Holmy got Daboll some help for those games we really took off in. What happened after the Jet's game? We went back in our shell. I think Holmy was trying to show Ginni & Co. what a good Offense looked like. It seems like Ginni went back to whatever Daboll wanted to do rather than keep up with what they were doing. I still think those games were being called by someone else. The differences in the game plans really stand out. Why we went back to what did not work is beyond me. I think Ginni was trying to show Holmy it could work either way. Thats why he is gone.
The Patriots were actually one of the lower rated (25th in overall defense for the year) defenses we played. In that game, we "opened it up" to the extent that McCoy went 14-19 for 174 yards and 0 TD/0INT.
The Saints game was almost all running game. People want to revise history in their minds, but the Saints game was the game where Bowens returned 2 INT for TDs, and McCoy went 9-16 for 74 yards and 0 TD/0 INT. That was hardly an offensive explosion.
In the Jets game, McCoy went 18-31 for 205 yards, 1 TD and 0 INT.
So, in those 3 games, where we "really opened it up", we threw 66 times for 454 yards. That's hardly "all attack and offense".
Over the course of the year, we averaged 29 passes per game. In those 3 games we actually threw less than we ordinarily did.
I'm not trying to be offensive here, but I think that people sometimes remember what they want to remember rather than what actually happened on the field.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Where was the "move on and hope for the best" crowd then? lol. FO questioning is only called bashing by those who disagree.
That is my point. And for the record, I wanted to keep Ginni to. I enjoy reading all the posts, but, almost every poster on here had D'jango on ignore.
I can see other points of view, but after awhile when every post belittle's the FO, your just not posting your views, your really telling everyone on here your not gonna be happy no matter what. So if that's what you want then fine, but, it's time to move on and at least start to talk up-coming football and the draft or other moves. We all know how some feel, so on to bigger & better things. Nobody liked akronjoes posts or D'jango, so why start all over with more of the same?
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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One more thing. I know its a bit off topic but as bad as Daboll was and boy he was bad, I dont think he is the main reason things did go bad. I trace it back to the Lions preseason game.
When Suh tried to rip Jake's head from his shoulders and no player responded other than Jake, the season was doomed. The toughness and togetherness was lost. When Harrison laid out Cribbs and MoMass with cheap shots, no one responded. Hell the team got punched in the gut and they laid down and quit.
mourg...you touch upon a part of the Browns game that I have personally questioned myself...the emotional side.
It has been said that a football team's personality emulates the personality of it's head coach.
I heard someone say, last season, the Browns played the way their head coach looked (on the sidelines)...unemotional and uninspired.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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When we were over matched he pulled out all the stops. When we should have been the dominate team we played not to lose and allowed weaker teams to build confidence.
The saints game as well as the pats games were deceiving statistically.
We had the lead and we threw like twice after 13 min mark in the 3rd quarter of the saints game. Against the Pats we were dominating and sat on the ball as well.
Cal
I think Colt fits with what Shurmur wants to do like a glove. we are gonna spread teams out wide and it should open up things for the running game. I would not be surprised to see a lot of 2 TE sets as we try to play to our strengths.
I also can see us using hillis and hardesty together. Maybe throw in a double screen with each flanking out. Using Hillis as the FB at times. getting both outside behind the receivers. Lots of options considering how accurate Colt is in the short to mid game.
Now a far as him being HC, its anyone's guess as to what kind of leader he is and what kind of game day general he is.
Defensively, I was a huge fan of Rob Ryan considering we had no pass rushers to play the kind of D he wanted and he still was very successful for most of the year. Jauron is a downgrade to Rob but I think going to the 4-3 is better for us long term because it has just gotten so hard to find front 7 talent due to competition for those players.'
Jauron may not be the coach ryan was but I think he has a better chance of finding success due to available 4-3 talent.
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I saw a team improving until the last four weeks... then it looked like it was a team that quit... I was a Mangini guy this year until those last four games... then I figured if we made a move at coach it was warrented... I just home that this will be our last hire for a long time.
<><
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J/C,
Oh boy, uh I thought this discussion was about our QB, but no...... just more of the same......folks going off 'half cocked' about the coaching changes.
Half cocked, because there is really nothing here to go on other then pure speculation on our behalf.
Opinions are one thing....
^this is another thing entirely.
Before I ridicule our FO, I am going to give them the benefit of doubt first and that is in no way 'blind faith'.
Colt McCoy is our future QB.
I can't remember an off season when I was not hoping to select one in the draft.
It's a little refreshing, because now we can move on to the other positions that need to be filled or upgraded.
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Give me a break mac!
I just love how people try to lump or label Ytown, myself, Django, or anyone else is some kind of negative light because we may have some philosophical differences, or perhaps question "the status quo" that makes us bad fans...give it a rest.
were tired of starting over...sick of it
oh well..the same folks singing holmgren's praises today will most likely be caling for his head tommorow.
this is a total rebuild...are you ready for another 3-4 years of garbage losing football? i hope you are....IMO it turns my stomach....
quit being a follower, and try being a leader for a change mac....yes its a revolutionary thought....say what you want about me, ytown, django, prp and others...but at least we actually question and don't blindly the status quo and march the party/company line.....at least we actually think for ourselves using our own brains instead of just closing our eyes and wishing things get better.
we have every right to question...holmgren has proven jack squat that he can pick a good Head coach....this is the first time he has ever hired a head coach....we have every right to question
so please, stop with this incessent nonsense....that we like Mangini more then the Browns....there are many of us who think we had something good going on...i shudder to think if Mangini gets the titans job and he turns them into winners were going to look like even more incompetent then we already look
you can't win with constant turnover all the time...2 years is not enough time for ANY coach....would it be fair to fire Holmgren if we don't make the playoffs next year? no it wouldn't be...but its only ok and fair to fire Mangini under the same pretenses? got ya!
whatever....this organization will never put forth a consistent winner until Randy Lerner quits hitting the reset button all the time.
this is what were sick and tired of.
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So do you think that a 4-3 will ultimately give us a better pass rush, or at least make it easier to find pass rushing DE's because the talent pool is larger? My one concern in this area, is that because of the prevalence of NFL teams running the 3-4, the number 4-3 ends may be declining in the college ranks. What are your thoughts on that?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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If our defense improves in scoring, I'll say I was wrong. Will you do the same if we give up more points? What are your criteria for success? How do we judge the incoming staff and team? Do we have to win a certain number of games? Do we have to attain specific rankings on offense or defense, or in scoring or scoring defense? How will you judge the team for improvement or regression? What, exactly, is your criteria? What if we go through 3 different QBs again next year? Do you allow for that?
In short, how will you judge the success of next year's team? I would really like to know. You seem stuck on this "Mangini's gone so things are great" broken record, so what will be a successful year next year? What are the minimum standards?
It's obvious that you and I look at what is coming up differently. No matter what you say, post after post from you gives off this negative vibe that is undeniable. I choose to look at the upcoming season, if there is one, differently.
The FO is assembling a staff that is pointed at the same goal. Making Cleveland a winner again. Mangini played most games not to lose them. He wasn't looking to win, he was more interested in looking good, IMO.
What will I consider a success? I think it's way too early to tell. How many players will be sent packing? Who will we draft? What FA's will we acquire? Until I know these things making a guess as to our record is a pure guess. Just like it would be for you or anyone else.
You seem stuck on being "right" or "wrong" on everything you mention on here. If our Defense improves in scoring and we have a winning record why would I care if you were wrong?
You say, "You seem stuck on this "Mangini's gone so things are great" broken record," Yet I have never said that or thought that. I just think that we were never going to be a consistent winner with him at the helm. 2 years at 5-11 say I'm probably correct in that estimation.
You want me to put some pie-in-the-sky predictions out there in the ether so that no matter what happens you'll be able to crow that you were right at the end of the year. Well, here goes......Neither you or K of B will be happy with whatever happens in 2011 unless we hit the Super Bowl. Which wasn't gonna happen with Mangini and won't happen with Pat.
Don't worry, I'll let you know what I think of the new staff and team once we actually have something to discuss. Right now all we have is speculation. And who knows how much of that is actually based in fact? Especially with some of the blather I've read on here lately.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Not everyone has the ability to rush the passer, play the run and drop into coverage. There are maybe half a dozen schools that teach you how to be the tweener. It is becoming harder and harder to find those guys to be a 3-4 OLB/DE because half the league is now playing the 3-4. You realisticaly have 2 options.
You are taking an OLB and asking him to add weight and learn to put his hand down on occasion.
You take a DE and ask him to learn to drop into coverage.
Now if you employ the 4-3, you have over 100 D1 schools playing the 4-3 and a few hundred more small schools. All of those DE's have more than likely played the position since highschool and many since gradeschool or peewee.
Now you also have a lot of smaller DT's with pass rush skills that can slide outside and fill in at DE. Robaire when he was young and healthy is a prime example.
for the 3-4 DE and NT first you have to find players willing to do all the work and get no reward. Then you have to teach them how to play the position. Ask Albert Haynesworth or big baby his opinion on going from the 4-3 to the 3-4. It is a career killer and more and more of these big guys are realizing it.
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Here's the problem: every 2.4 years on average, ...
And if, IF, that happens............whenever a new coach is named people will go all ga ga over him saying "this is exactly what we need" yet one more time.
here's where the thread should've ended. could you condense this into a sig for me, ARCH?
How's this: "If nothing changes, nothing changes... but the problem for us is that the thing that does change is that we're always changing".
That, or "Hope springs eternal".
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The FO is assembling a staff that is pointed at the same goal. Making Cleveland a winner again. Mangini played most games not to lose them. He wasn't looking to win, he was more interested in looking good, IMO.
That's crap. We had Delhomme, Wallace, a rookie McCoy, Quinn and Anderson at QB. Of course we played not to lose. Trying to throw the ball all over the place with that lot would be career suicide. We still managed to throw almost 30 times/game last year. (29.9 pass atempts/game) That was the exact same as Pittsbutgh, and just behind Baltimore, who threw 30.7 times/game. The difference is that they had the QB/WR combination to allow them to gain between 20-40 more yards/game passing ...... and they threw for 22 and 24 pass TD compared to our 13.
But ... that's because we ran the ball so much, you say?
We ran 25.8 times/game for an average of 102.9 yards/game, and had 13 rushing TDs.
The Steelers ran 29.4 times/game for 120 yards/game and 15 rushing TDs, and the Ravens rushed 30.4 times/game for 114 yards/game average and 11 rushing TDs.
So ... we ran less than the Steelers and Ravens, and threw about the same as those teams. So .... was it "not looking to win", or was it that the pass game wasn't holding up its end of the bargain? Was it that we just wouldn't call pass plays, or was it that the QBs/WRs weren't doing what they were supposed to do?
Once again you spout off stuff without factual basis. You saw what you wanted to see.
We ran an AFCN style offense last year. We ran the kind of offense proven to win in the AFCN. Unfortunately, we lacked at the QB position due to crappiness, ineptitude, or youth/inexperience.
So .... we played "not to lose" ... what does that even mean? That we got the lead and then tried to not have Jake Delhomme throw a pick 6 to lose it? Well, that happened twice, and almost a 3rd time as he threw his 3rd of the year against Carolina. I know ... it means getting all bent out of shape when we didn;t run behind Vickers .... because that was generally effective ... despite being "predictable" ........
How many times should we have thrown last year? I'm serious. How many times should we have had our collection of QBs, with the right side of the OL in constant flux, how many times should we have had them drop back to throw every game? How long should our QBs have dropped back and held the ball in order to launch it downfield? lol
Man you kill me.
You seem to think that we had Steve Young, Joe Montana, and maybe even Jeff Garcia back there ..... and that we should have thrown it 40 times/game or something. 
We had Jake Delhomme.
We had Senaca Wallace.
We had Colt McCoy.
I assume that you agree that this is a QB driven league ... since this is the opinion of just about every single person with the slightest bit of knowledge that is allowed on TV .... right? You need a QB to win in this league.
Which of our QBs was going to lead us to victory? More importantly, which was going to lead us to victory, with the right side of our OL reduced to rubble by injury, and an injured Hillis for the final 4 or 5 games?
Which one?
But ... but .... but ... we should have opened up the offense more!
HOW?
Geesh.
Seriously, what would YOU have done to open up the offense more?
Oh, and before anyone brings up Harrison, bear in mind that the FO traded him, and that they also brought in a guy in Jayme Mitchell who clearly did not fit the team, so I doubt that they were doing it to help Mangini at the expense of the team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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How will a smaller, faster LB corps help, in your opinion? Will their speed give us better closing ability, or will size be a detriment because of the big WRs & TEs the the powerful RBs in the division?
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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We saw this team get blown out routinely last year. This year we saw them close the gap against even better competition.
You lose me every time you make this argument. So did the Browns begin play in 2008?
There was a big offseason change, Kokinas gone... Was Kokinis Hampering Mangini so much?
Ok so forget that Alll of the time Crennel was here, it wasn't as bad, or that it wasn't as bad at all with Butch Davis, And What do I mean? a 10 game losing streak, 1-11 reg season record ... at any point as a head coach.
Ok so heres what its like when I read you make that agument.
Butch and Crennel had run down houses.. Condemed buildings, falling apart, without even a front door whatever
So in 2008 Mangini comes in And Burns down the house, burnt to the gound.
In 2010 He has built a Tent, to keep the rain off your head, A Tent
and you only want to reference how Great it is to have a tent, compared to nothing .
You cant say its so much better to go from 5-11 blown out, to 5-11 in most games and not look at anything before for reference.
I don't actually think Mangini was that much worse than Crennel, and Butch Davis to be as bad as a tent from a building, I'm just trying to illustrate how this argument doesn't work for me to Ytown.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Well, when you go from 5-11 and being blown out by the girl scouts, to 5-11 and upsetting perrenial Super Bowl contenders ... and playing a very difficult schedule, along with 9 games against playoff teams, and playing then close .. with Jake Delhomme, Seneca Wallace, and Colt McCoy at QB ....... well, that's improvement that anyone with vision can see.
Before anyone wonders or accuses me .....
I am not saying that McCoy is a scrub, or anything of the kind, What I am saying is that towards the end of the year, as they put more of the burder on his shoulders, he started to look more like a rookie than like the calm and capable young man he looked like earlier in the year. That is almost to be expected, as by then we had Hillis at about half speed, and no right side of the OL. He also struggled with teams taking away what he does wel ... and now is forced to do what all rookies must do, and that is adjust to other teams' adjustments to his strengths.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Browns are the closest thing to being a smash mouth team in the AFC North. Everyone runs a pass happy offense. Air Coryell in Baltimore, Pitt and Cinn run more of a vertical spread. The pass is used to set up the run.
Honestly, we needed to get faster no matter what system we ran. Bowens trying to cover Ray Rice should give everyone nightmares. All of these teams have 3-5 receiving options every play. You have to be able to cover them.
I can't remember the last time we were able to defend any pass to the TE. Maybe during the Davis era. We find playmaking linebackers that can tackle and it doesn't matter if they weight 230 or 270.
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Getting back to the O for a second, I agree that McCoy is a good fit for a WCO, but wonder about his ability to throw an accurate McCoy will be able to make use of him to open up the coverage a bit, or will teams play close to the LOS because they think all we can do is small ball. This is my main area of concern regarding the WCO and McCoy at QB.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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You do realize that you're arguing with yourself, right? I mean when you start out by calling my opinion crap it's really not gonna make me (or anyone else for that matter) want to continue reading your stuff. I do like the way you make up a talking point that I never mentioned then proceed to tell me why I'm a moron for believing something that I never said. By the end of your post I was wondering why I was making so many bad points when I realized I hadn't....you had.  Dude, you can think whatever you want about how the team is being run and by whom. But in the end your boy Mangini is gone and if that's gonna stick in your craw this badly for the rest of the year I suggest a prescription for a powerful antacid.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Think you missed a few words there damn backspace button lol.
With guys like Colt that don't have the big arm to stretch the field, it becomes even more important to produce yards after the catch. You get the ball to receivers in position to do something with it.
Heck you look at Green Bay. They can have these huge plays, but more often than not, the pass was in that 12-18 yards range and the receiver added another 20 plus to it. If a team wants to crowd the line that plays into what the offense wants them to do anyway. That 7 yard slant goes just beyond the deepest backer and you are 1 on 1 with a safety, because the TE just picked off the corner.
The entire key is yards after catch. You need weapons that can run and catch the quick stuff while running full speed and you need a qb that can get it to them so they dont have to break stride.
I love watching Jennings and Driver work with Rogers. They never break stride. 7 yarder becomes 20. 20 yarder becomes 40. Now they are able to continue to stretch the field due to Rogers arm but that is a bonus and not a true need to have the offense to work.
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I saw a team that played down to it's competition. Beat a couple good teams with the help of some gadget plays, and lost to a few teams that they should have beat.
There was poor clock management, and virtually no second half adjustments. I don't consider that improvement.
[color:"white"]I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane -Waylon Jennings
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The 2010 Browns were clearly better than the 2009 Browns. Anyone who watched the games could see that. You can try to justify your ("your" meaning everyone who has been giving ytown etc a hard time) glad Mangini is gone stance with record or whatever other criticisms you can come up with but the eyes don't lie. If you want, you can come up with criticisms of any head coach in the NFL with little to no effort.
But the fact is, it doesn't matter anymore. Mangini has been replaced by Shurmur. Whatever was is in the past and at this time is of no value to talk about. Let's focus on the here and now and what is to come in the future.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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True enough.
I just hope that the new crew can create something that puts us on a path to winning, rather than continuing the merry go round we've been on.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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