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I understand that you really can't argue anything I actually said ..... so you have to hide behind more crap. You said that he didn't play to win. Well, if he didn't then neither do the Steelers, or Ravens, or any of the other teams that follow the exact same formula to win. We didn't have a QB that could make enough plays to make the system work. Sure, we could have thrown 40 times per game. Think that would have worked with Delhomme, Wallace, and McCoy? Maybe 50 times/game? How do you define "playing to win"? I know .... "Uh .... by doing something other than we did if it didn't work ......"  Anyway .... I hope that Shurmur is successful after Holmgren finishes putting his staff together for him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Anyway .... I hope that Shurmur is successful after Holmgren finishes putting his staff together for him.
Why take unnecessary and unsubstantiated shots? It adds nothing to your post, and if anything hurts it.
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Anyway .... I hope that Shurmur is successful after Holmgren finishes putting his staff together for him.
Why take unnecessary and unsubstantiated shots? It adds nothing to your post, and if anything hurts it.
It was hurting long before that. Before thought fed the hands that typed the words.
YTown meet deep end. You used to be a poster where I would skim through a thread and read if you had a thought because you usually had something worthwhile to add. Now you're just full of agenda. If Shurmur does not have a good first year it's obvious you are going to get your jollies off on it. You've almost singlehandedly made this board unreadable over the last few weeks, and I honestly believe that you'll take more satisfaction from Shurmur and the Browns failing then you would if the Browns were successful under Shurmur. I believe that 100%. The effort you have gone through to pimp Mangini and discredit the new staff is mind boggling. I honestly don't know how you have that many hours in the day.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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J/C here and getting back to the original thread article after 2 pages of mudslinging.....and going back to this from the article: Quote:
Acknowledging Pat Shurmur and Jauron, Holmgren said, “It fell into place. I feel very fortunate we got both of those guys. Now I’ve gotta find an offensive coordinator.”
At that point, Jurkovic asked Holmgren, “Are you gonna do it?
Holmgren replied, “I might. You know, I don’t remember making many bad calls. I really don’t.”
It sounded like Holmgren was kidding.
There was debate on page 1 of this thread as to this snippet, with people saying is MH gonna do the hiring of the OC or will it be Shurmur.
Obviously, this snippet was referring to MH calling the plays himself....and obviously he was joking. The only thing that I like about the hires thus far is that the staff has worked together before, and allegedly share the same philosophy. This indicates we should be on the same page in both the FO and the field level for the first time since about 1993 and this can only lead to good things. It doesn't matter HOW the OC is hired, what matters is that he be on the same page and buy into the planned system along with the others.
That's important.
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I'm sorry that you feel that this: Quote:
Making Cleveland a winner again. Mangini played most games not to lose them. He wasn't looking to win, he was more interested in looking good, IMO.
Is rational, and my responses have not been.
If you feel that Mangini was more interested in "looking good" than in winning games, as the other poster, who I responded to does, then I don't know what to tell you.
On another point, namely my concerns about Shurmur ........
I also can't remember where a guy appeared more unprepared than Shurmur does.
One of the big things that we always hear about candidates is how they have a plan. They have a plan laid out for how to assemble their coaching staff. They have a plan for how to handle A, B, and C as far as turning the team around. They come in and say "This is how I want to do it, and this is where we'll start."
One of the biggest knocks on Russ Grimm when he was the hot property for coaching vacancies was that he went in unprepared, and tried to answer questions in a general fashion, rather than having thought about a plan to turn a team around. Now, maybe you can argue that Holmgren and Heckert have the plan, but it kinda worries me that Shurmur looks more like a follower in this regard than a leader. I also worry that, instead of there being some clear chain of command, that the head coach will appear diminished in the eyes of the players as a result. This could intensify if Holmgren spends a lot of time with the team at practices in a hands on capacity. Who's in charge? Who do I listen to? Who is really in charge?
Man I really worry about that part a LOT. It's OK to be a teacher ..... but in the NFL you're going to get steamrolled if you don't have leadership ingrained in your psyche. You can have more football knowledge than everyone else in the NFL combined, but if you can't get everyone on the same page .... what good does it do you? He talks about being a teacher, yet his team was one of the more penalized teams in the NFL last year ..... with a whopping 102 offensive penalties. (we had 78) Is it more important to teach as a head coach, or is it more important to enforce discipline and allow those under you to teach?
Like I have said many times, I hope that Shurmur can succeed, but I see red flags everywhere. I hope I am wrong, and if we start winning regularly, I will be the first to stand up and say that I was wrong ..... but unfortunately, I have this sickl feeling in the bottom of my gu t that we hired a guy who will be more puppet than head coach ..... and that he won't be effective as a result.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I also can't remember where a guy appeared more unprepared than Shurmur does.
I'm curious as to what you base this on. (Not attacking you - I'm really just curious as to your thinking on this.)
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Like I said, I didn't hear anything from his about what the team would look like. I didn't hear anything about what he wanted the team to look like. I brought up the Russ Grimm example, and it's obvious that Shurmur either didn't have his list of coach candidates, the front office vetoed them for one reason or another, or they chose not to work with him here. No one appears to be jumping on board with both feet. What will the Browns look like under Pat Shurmur? What will be the things that he emphasizes? What will our strengths be? Can anyone answer these questions without saying "Hopefully a Mike Holmgren team"? Here are some of the introductory comments made by other "quiet" coaches who Shurmur's hire has been compared to: Mike Smith: "My goal is to build a well-disciplined, hard-nosed football team that will be able to run the football on offense and stop the run on defense," Smith said. "I've always believed that's what makes championship teams." Smith Link John Harbaugh: "I can say this about our offense: We're going to be tough, we're going to be physical, we're going to be disciplined and we're going to play really hard," Harbaugh said. "If we do those things, we'll be just fine." "When you talk about discipline in football, you're talking about guys making good choices in critical moments and being poised," he said. "We've got smart guys on this football team, and I think there is a plan in place for getting your team to that point. That's part of the process, and that starts [today]." I didn't hear anything like this at all from Shurmur. He talked about being a teacher .... like a position coach, or coordinator would. I worry about that. A lot. He's no longer a teacher, he's the leader of an NFL team. He's the man who sets the agenda, and leads his men into battle. He's the one who needs to know and effectively communicate where the team is going so that others can and will follow him. I have yet to see that from Shurmur. I'm sorry that this upsets some people. It really has nothing at all to do with who the last coach is .... I question this coach's ability to lead a team. I worry about him being a "puppet coach" for Holmgren. I worry about his preparedness. I worry about his ability to manage the big picture. I don't think that he was a particularly effective coordinator. Yes he had crap to work with in 2009, but his offense wasn't terribly disciplined. That's vital in the WCO, because the WCO isn't designed for 2nd and 15 plays. These are things that worry me. If they don't worry anyone else, then that's fine. They don't have to, and in fact, I envy those who aren't worried at all about this hire. I wish I could feel that way. Unfortunately, I don't. I would have concerns if we were hiring Shurmur for the coordinator position, let alone head coach. I hope that Holmgren knows something here ..... because I sure don't see it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Anyway .... I hope that Shurmur is successful after Holmgren finishes putting his staff together for him.
Why take unnecessary and unsubstantiated shots? It adds nothing to your post, and if anything hurts it.
I'm hearing talk about Holmgren putting the staff together for Shumur and I guess I'm just wondering.. So What? Everyone that works for the Browns is on HOLMGRENS staff...
Having said that, if holmgren if forcing someone down Shumurs throat,, that's a different story but I'm having a hard time buying into that theory...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I'm sorry that this upsets some people. It really has nothing at all to do with who the last coach is . We believe you too 
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Let me ask you a hypothetical question ..... It's a week after the season, and we've heard nothing about Mangini's future. The Browns call a press conference, and speculation is running rampant. The Browns announce that Mangini will be back for next year, but that "he" has decided to make some changes to his offensive staff, and that Brian Daboll and Carl Smith are being let go, and that Pat Shurmur was somehow freed up by the Rams, and will be coming here. Mangini talks beautifully about Shurmur, how he considered him for coordinator when he was with the Jets, how he thinks he did a great job with the Rams, and how he thinks that he will do a great job as coordinator, and working with Colt McCoy. How many of you would have been up in arms, calling Mangini nuts for hiring a coordinator who was barely better than the guy we had ...... how they were penalized more often .... and so on ....? I bet there would have been a LOT. Offensive coordinator would have been bad ..... but head coach ....? OK.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You have a point, but Eric Mangini does not have a track record of identifying and hiring excellent coaches. Mike Holmgren does. That has to count for something.
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Boy you guys are going to hurt your back reaching so much, I think it is hilarious
#gmstrong
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You know I had this long rebuttal typed out but it isn't worth it. You are going to find fault with Shurmur no matter what he does, what he says. I am done with it.
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Quote:
You have a point, but Eric Mangini does not have a track record of identifying and hiring excellent coaches. Mike Holmgren does. That has to count for something.
Mangini wanted to hire Shurmur when he got the Browns gig...
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You have a point, but Eric Mangini does not have a track record of identifying and hiring excellent coaches. Mike Holmgren does. That has to count for something.
Mangini wanted to hire Shurmur when he got the Browns gig...
Mangini made the mistake of not putting experience in charge of the offense. He is a defensive coach, with just a few years of head coaching under his belt. IMO, if he would have hired a experienced successful OC, he would still be the coach today. I just think he had problems dealing with suboordinates who just might be more competent them him at certain things.
I also feel his inability to deal with strong personalities from players hurt him also. You need talent to succeed, talent sometimes comes with baggage. These players are all over the league, and many teams have multiple eog freaks on their team. Being able to deal with them, and get them to buy into a program is part of being a good coach.
#gmstrong
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Not sure what that has to do with my post. ComicSans said that Mangini was not a good evaluator of coaching talent and that Holmgren is, and yet they both wanted the same guy on the Browns' coaching staff. Goes back to what YTown is saying a few posts up, that if Mangini had put Shurmur on his staff he'd have gotten blasted for the move.
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Must've highlighted somehow and deleted an entire section. I was in a hurry and didn't get to preview... sorry about that. Fortunately you got the point.
Green Bay is a good example of the type of offense I'd like to see here. Unfortunately, we don't have Rogers, Jennings or Driver. Not saying McCoy can't develop into an effective passer, but it will take familiarity with the system and the competition, and excellent chemistry with his receivers before he ever approaches that kind of efficiency. All this, of course, will take time. A few things in his favor: 1) He's only in his second year, so not a whole lot to unlearn. 2) He's spent some time under center and has faced some tough competition. 3) He's a habitual winner.
I notice that Rogers doesn't go deep an awful lot, but he does go deep, and while he does miss some, he's fairly accurate with the deep ball. (He also possesses the #1 all time passer rating.) In order to be most effective today, IMO, a good QB needs the ability to strike quickly and hit the deep ball accurately. It's much easier to do in the middle of the field, when the receiver is wide open, so It's hard to judge McCoy's deep ball when all he's had is mostly deep sideline passes to tightly covered receivers.
RAC is so important, and your point is well taken. That brings up the question in my mind, do any of our receivers have what it takes to be consistently effective in the WCO? (Or the NFL for that matter.) Mo-Mass, Robo & Stuckey have a real problem getting separation, and you need to have at least a step, and some speed to generate effective RAC. Not sure they qualify unless new patterns, (slants, outs, crossing,) will help with that.
I have a hard time counting Cribbs in this because he's shown so little in the passing game, yet he may be the one guy who could benefit most from this system. He actually does have the ability to get separation, and could generate RAC, but most of his routes have been vertical, so he (still) has lot of learning to do to be effective. It's also possible he gets relegated to the return game to bump production there.
So, do we revamp the WR corp, or work with, (and try to improve,) what we have? Is this a low priority while we rebuild the defense? In your opinion, will Robo, Mo-Mass and Stuckey fall by the wayside as a matter of team and system evolution, or will they be able to step up and shine in the new system?
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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ComicSans said that Mangini was not a good evaluator of coaching talent and that Holmgren is, and yet they both wanted the same guy on the Browns' coaching staff.
Thanks for the summary, but that's not what I said. My point was not that Mangini isn't a good evaluator of talent, but that he doesn't yet have the track record of finding coaches that Holmgren does (i.e. Reid, Mariucci, Gruden, the list goes on).
I was trying to explain why people are more willing to trust in Holmgren when he puts his stamp of approval on a guy than when Mangini does. It doesn't mean that Mangini can't evaluate good coaches, just that Holmgren's already proved he can, so fans will give him the benefit of the doubt more often. That both Mangini and Holmgren wanted him only lends more support to idea that Shurmur can be a successful coach.
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The biggest concern I have with McCoy isn't going deep, because I think that he actually throws a decent deep ball when he can wind up and step into his throw, and even somewhat when he throws on the run.
My concern is whether or not he can hit the deep outs from the pocket, on time. That is the type of thow that generally takes the most pure arm to make, because you can't wind up, and it has to be there immediately.
If McCoy can make those throws, then he'll be successful in the WCO. If he can't then he won't.
We'll see what happens over the next couple of years.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You have a point, but Eric Mangini does not have a track record of identifying and hiring excellent coaches. Mike Holmgren does. That has to count for something.
Mangini wanted to hire Shurmur when he got the Browns gig...
Actually, I think it was the Jets, but whatever.
My point is that if Mangini, with Holmgren's consent, had stayed head coach, and hired Shurmur, with Holmgren's "suggestion", there would have been people who are preaching calm about Shurmur right now who would have been going NUTS because Mangini hired a guy they would have considered a bum. They would have looked at how Shurmur did in St Louis and would have gone insane over Mangini hiring a guy like that.
There are some people who will ignore it, or deny it, but if Shurmur were a Mangini hire and not a Holmgren hire they would be lambasting him right now. The reasons wuld be exactly the same resons I brought up.
Oh well ... let's give him 5 years, because someone needs to be a stable influence on the franchise, let him grow, let him mature, build the team under him, and hopefully in 5 years from now we'll have a great head coach in Pat Shurmur.
I hope so, because I am sick and tired of rebuilding all the damn time. "Tear it down ... start over ..... don't worry, we have it right this time ....... "
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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My concern is whether or not he can hit the deep outs from the pocket, on time. That is the type of thow that generally takes the most pure arm to make, because you can't wind up, and it has to be there immediately.
If McCoy can make those throws, then he'll be successful in the WCO. If he can't then he won't.
We'll see what happens over the next couple of years.
This is probably the biggest single question concerning his arm strength, (or lack thereof). Especially in the cold, late in the year, when it's windy, wet, and the ball is heavy.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I would watch a game and just by the personnel package, I knew what routes would be run. It really makes it hard to evaluate whether a receiver can gain separation or not. The good thing is Holmgren, Heckert, Haskill and Shurmur combined have a centuries worth of experience in evaluating receivers for this scheme.
I agree with Cribbs though. He is the one guy I can see being a real threat if he can get the ball in the open field.
Hopefully Shurmur has already given Colt and the receiving options a good number of plays to work on. They get together and spend this off season developing and perfecting their timing and maybe just maybe, this offense can be something special.
If they are willing to put in the work, good things will happen for this offense.
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ComicSans said that Mangini was not a good evaluator of coaching talent and that Holmgren is, and yet they both wanted the same guy on the Browns' coaching staff.
Thanks for the summary, but that's not what I said. My point was not that Mangini isn't a good evaluator of talent, but that he doesn't yet have the track record of finding coaches that Holmgren does (i.e. Reid, Mariucci, Gruden, the list goes on).
I was trying to explain why people are more willing to trust in Holmgren when he puts his stamp of approval on a guy than when Mangini does. It doesn't mean that Mangini can't evaluate good coaches, just that Holmgren's already proved he can, so fans will give him the benefit of the doubt more often. That both Mangini and Holmgren wanted him only lends more support to idea that Shurmur can be a successful coach.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though I still suspect otherwise. That's neither here nor there.
In any case, going back again to YTown's hypothetical, if Mangini had hired Shurmur as an assistant coach he would've been blasted for it even if it was done with Holmgren's blessing. It would have been viewed as a negative, and thusly a "Mangini", hire.
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Year one of the WCO, we could be in fairly good shape on the learning curve if Hardesty can make a full recovery, we retain Evan Moore and Ben Watson, we solidify the right side of the OL, and we bring in (draft or FA) a legitimate receiving threat. If we do that and allow McCoy to play within his talent development level, we may be able to generate some points. In that sense, I agree, we may see some good things on offense. On the other side of the ball, will we be able to stop anybody? 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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just clicking.. All i can say is ....WOW 3 pages of bickering and 9 tenths of it off topic of the thread. Why hasnt this thread been locked or all the threads combined into 1 thread ?? Since no matter the topic, they all end up being the same old thing as every other thread. There isnt much sense in reading past the original post and maybe the first 1 or 2 replys anymore.. OK /Rant off Please continue bashing,hating and blind following 
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Thank God you came in and got it back on topic. 
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So how is this for getting it back on topic.
McCoy is "The Man" this year. If he shows he has what it takes and we are set at Qb then: Finally! We have our Qb situation settled. If he shows he doesn't have what it takes then with our defensive change to the 4-3 and the innate difficulties that go along with a scheme change then we should be in the andrew Luck sweepstakes. And if we don't have the #1 overall pick perhaps Matt Barkley comes out a year early. Also Nick Foles is a senior and I am sure there are 1 or 2 other people that I have not thought of yet.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Well I'm not sure that I want to be the one to bring this up, but I wouldn't mind taking a look around at other qb's to come in and compete for a job. Orton, McNabb, Heck even Vince Young? If Colt Can't outplay them, then why shouldn't we let someone else lead the team?
Part of me feels like we need to know what we have in Colt, but at the same time, we also want to win. And if McCoy can't beat out a veteran ... why not let the Veteran play? If it means Colt is on the bench but it helps us win .. I think I'd be for it (especially if we get those guys as Free Agents and not through trades ...)
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Part of me feels sometimes that competition hurts instead of helps.
By all accounts this year McCoy didn't feel comfortable until he became the man. Then all of his leadership qualities and competitiveness came to the surface. Here are the keys ... now drive us to the promise land. He relished that. It was his comfort zone, and the coaching staff was surprised by his response. Mangini commented on it more than once ... said he had never seen it work like that with a player.
Either commit to Colt or commit to someone else. I think competition in this case would be detrimental. Less reps with the first team starters ... players not knowing who the unquestioned leader is ... players taking sides ... I just don't see what good can come of it.
But we'll know with Pick #6 what the guys in charge are thinking.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I can agree with what you say as far as your points are concerned, but I also don't want to sit around and let a potential star escape us because we are commited to a guy. I love Colt as a college player and would be extremely happy if he becomes our guy. I also remember sitting around on draft day of 2006 hoping we could get Cutler but heard rumors that we were set on Frye so wouldn't trade up for him.
Entirely different argument, but I would love to have Cutler's arm in Cleveland in December. Back on topic .... I want to do anything possible to let Colt Succeed, but I have always been a fan of making players have an honest and open competition. If he beats someone out for the job, then it's settled. But if he couldn't beat out someone else, we don't "owe" him anything. That's why I'm not sure where I stand on it.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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In my own humble opinion just name Colt the starter and go from there.
How rare in recent seasons have we gone into TC with a clear-cut #1.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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And I'd be fine with that too. Just the thought of Vince Young coming in and creating matchup problems or Orton coming in and throwing for 3500 while helping the younger wr's to develop intrigues me. I'd love to have them as backups compared to maybe Ratliff at this point (is Wallace coming back? or we unsure?)
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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I'm all for looking at any guy that might help., Orton, McNabb whoever,, I don't care.
I think McCoy is the guy, I think it's clear Holmgren thinks so, my guess is Heckert and Shumur do as well.
But looking at guys is a smart thing to do.
Leaving no stone unturned is something the recent past regimes seem not to have done.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Kyle Orton or McNabb? None for me, thanks. If we can pry a Brady, Manning Brees or Rodgers away from their respective teams, then maybe I'd think about it. 
gmstrong -----------------
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Well I'm not doubting that our current regime will be able to improve the offensive situation, but as much as I would like Rodgers ... maybe for Mike bell? I just know that even Orton has averaged 3475 yards over the past three years with 20 tds and 11 ints .... (not bad for averaging 15 games per season either...) That's also accounting for being traded from Chicago into Denver and then playing under McDaniels ...he's been a fairly underrated player IMO. Vince Young is an athletic gold mine, but while I haven't watched him a ton recently, I fear he is only a *name* and not necessarily a producer on the field. When you combine that with his attitude problems .... it makes me skeptical. That being said, over his entire career of 5 years he has 54 games (only playing 3 in 2008) and 8100 yards with 42 td's and 42 ints .... a little less than starting quality... but if we could have him for free then I woudn't mind bringing him in... Those numbers aren't super (orton's I'm actually impressed with by the way) ... but keep in mind that other than Derek Anderson's 3787 yards in 2007 ... or Couch's 3040 yards in 2001 ... we haven't had a QB since the merger throw for more than 3000 in a season ... couch had another season at 2842 in 2002 and Frye had 2454 in 2006 .... a 3000 yard passer is solid too don't forget, but it's kind of like the 1,000 yard benchmark for running backs. 1000 yards is only 62.5 per game, and a 3,000 yard passer is only 187.5 in a game ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Don't be too impressed by Orton's numbers...he's not a very good QB. Never has been. Our three QBs combined for over 3100 yards this season, to put things in perspective.
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I think Orton is decent, not above-average but the numbers Pstu24 quoted aren't terrible. I'd take him over many QBs but it's time to see what we have in Colt.
gmstrong -----------------
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jc
I don't want to bring in some "average at best" veteran to impede the development of McCoy. I would hate to end next season with no better idea as to whether or not we have our Qb or not than we do now. for 1-2 more wins next season while setting us back 4 the next 2-3 seasons.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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And that's a very good point. Part of me thinks competition needs to exist so that any payer may be pushed and not come into the league "entitled" .... but I also recognize that for quarterbacks, it seems to be different.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Quote:
Anyway .... I hope that Shurmur is successful
Sadly, I don't think you really do.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren comes close to calling
McCoy 'the man'
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