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I don't care what the scoreboard said, Pittsburgh tanked that game, Pittsburg is the tougher team to beat, I have no respect for the Packers performance in That game; therefore there are no lessons to learn.
Hmm... sounds like someone is extremely bitter over a lost bet. 
YEP...sounds like someone had money on the Stoolers and lost..
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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I don't care what the scoreboard said, Pittsburgh tanked that game, Pittsburg is the tougher team to beat, I have no respect for the Packers performance in That game; therefore there are no lessons to learn.
Hmm... sounds like someone is extremely bitter over a lost bet.
YEP...sounds like someone had money on the Stoolers and lost..
If true, then perhaps there really IS such a thing as 'karma'...
...just sayin'...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Cut anybody good, badmouth them after they leave,( this board, not the team, ) and plug in somebody , ANYBODY to take their place.
Please show me this long list of high quality players we have cut... 
yebat' Putin
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Cut anybody good, badmouth them after they leave,( this board, not the team, ) and plug in somebody , ANYBODY to take their place.
Please show me this long list of high quality players we have cut...
Winslow (would probably have left, off field head case)
Faine (marginal at best but still a quality player)
Dawson (I'm early with this one.. but I think he's as good as gone)
The thing is, Winslow and Faine were eventually replaced with guys as good as or better than them. (mack and watson)
If they do that with Dawson, I got no problem. but I'd still like to see him remain with the team.
Not really a very long list is it?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Daman, you've about covered, I think, but I can't wait to read some of the other names that will be thrown out here as "quality"!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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winslow and faine were traded, so they were not cut. we got something back for them.
and dawson is speculation.
the only one that we 'cut' since '99 that became successful elsewhere would be Shaun O'hara (he left as a FA but that is essentially the same)
#gmstrong
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Daman, you've about covered, I think, but I can't wait to read some of the other names that will be thrown out here as "quality"!
There in lies the problem. Over the years, we've traded guys that I wouldn't have like Harrison. We cut Davis and I"m not sure I would have. But in both cases, there appeared to be something rumbling beneath the surface that we couldn't possibly know about.
I don't know that with thier limited time playing, if you could actually call them quality. Maybe..
But I think the true test is how any Ex Browns players fared after they left the team.
You have to consider Edwards as a quality player when he wants to be.. but inconsistent has all get out. I think that takes away from the quality factor.
WInslow has gone on to play pretty well. I think Faine has had a decent career. Made the ProBowl once I think with NO.. or was it with Tampa...
But beyond that, I don't know where this long list of guys would be...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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winslow and faine were traded, so they were not cut. we got something back for them.
and dawson is speculation.
the only one that we 'cut' since '99 that became successful elsewhere would be Shaun O'hara (he left as a FA but that is essentially the same)
Ahh Yes,, O'hara. Man the fans here beat on that guy relentlessly.. he's got a ring as a starter. Yeah,, he's a bum for sure
And your right,, Winslow, Faine and Edwards (if you want to include him) As well as Harrison were traded and we received something in return.
My point was that Traded or cut or allowed to leave via FA.. The list of people that left and went on to success isn't all that long.
Yes, I even stated that Dawson was speculation.. But I think it's a done deal that he's gone. Don't you? By the way, I wanna be wrong about that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Michael Lehan and Lewis Sanders were multi-year starters other places as well. Nick Eason. Andra Davis was a starter. Anthony Henry wasn't cut but we bypassed re-signing him in favor of Gary Baxter (who really never got to play for the Browns through all the injuries.)
*edit* Not saying these guys were great, just that we have let people walk who have been productive elsewhere. They're certainly not game-changers, though. Add Kevin Bentley to the list while we're at it.
Last edited by CleveSteve; 02/09/11 03:43 PM.
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I really hope Heckert is as good as he appeared to be last year in the draft because going through this pathetic list of names is depressing me about how bad our FO has been.
#gmstrong
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Michael Lehan and Lewis Sanders were multi-year starters other places as well. Nick Eason. Andra Davis was a starter. Anthony Henry wasn't cut but we bypassed re-signing him in favor of Gary Baxter (who really never got to play for the Browns through all the injuries.)
*edit* Not saying these guys were great, just that we have let people walk who have been productive elsewhere. They're certainly not game-changers, though. Add Kevin Bentley to the list while we're at it.
Lehan and Sanders were ok I guess but like you say, not world beaters. Do you really think thier departure hurt us that badly? I don't.
Nick Eason,,,, you know I forgot about him.. He's a guy I wish we still had.. That was a loss for us.
Davis started for Denver and Buffalo I guess, but damn,, when he was here, he got ragged on relentlessly just like O'hara.. I don't think you can put him in the mix as a big loss.
Henry was a guy I thought we'd really miss.. and for a while I think we did. But he didn't exactly turn out to be a game changer either.
Baxter actually did get into a game... that's how he got injured in the first place.. But you just can't do much about the way he went down.. just too bad..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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We had a great draft last year and if we can continue to build the team with drafts like we had in 2010, we WILL have a team that we will be proud to cheer for....
I agree we had a pretty good draft in 2010, we need another good-to-great one in 2011.
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We have some of the pieces in place. We've got Mr. McCoy who is a good young QB who will only improve. We've got two important pieces of our secondary in Ward and Haden.
I agree with Ward and Haden, especially the latter. Not sold on Colt yet - I am hopeful, but I have some trepidations - mostly with his arm strength.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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O'hara got beat on,as you say,because he was a bad guard.Everyone,save Butch,recognized that center was his natural position.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Anthony Henry wasn't cut but we bypassed re-signing him in favor of Gary Baxter
Actually, the way it went down was Henry didn't want to be here and left without even listening to an offer. Baxter was signed later because we had to have somebody to replace Henry. No big deal. Just sayin'.
#gmstrong
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The game once again proved that getting to the quarterback on defense, and giving your quarterback time on offense, is the key to winning games in the NFL.
Or as Marty would say, you can't win the game when you turn the ball over more than your opponnet.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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I could not agree more. yet how many times was poor Colt left with an empty backfield with no protection. Watch the Steelers blitz every down watch the right tackle be a turnstiles, watch the Coaching staff leave no TE next to that inept RT. Watch Vickers sit on the bench. SOS stuck on stupid. Ok what did we learn from the packers. 1) In a bizarro world we do the opposite 2) saying you are committed to the oline and leaving john St. Eclaire as your starting RT for TWO SEASONS 3) often leave empty backfield or No TE kept in to block and watch the young McCoy and two other QBs sustain the high ankle sprain. 3 QBs is one season. SOS stuck on stupid. thank God daboll is in Miami. 4) make INSANE proclamations how the shakiest wr corp in the league and below even many major colleges needs no veteran receiving help and wait to see if the fans don't laugh and heckle and groan..but a mighty contingent drinks the Jonestown Koolade and talks up Robo and momass as a great combo...none may even make the team of our division rivals. 5)call insanely predictable plays that help your shakey oline look even worse and trade any reliable RB backups and get a guy with more stickers on his suitcase and trips to the hospital palooka RB and act like we got a great deal. Fire a Defensive, no I mean do not invite back a defensive coordinator who brings the heat and replace him with a "by the book" guy who lacks the talent to get any results other than to be bludgeoned by that book. What did we learn from the Packers. Nothing i can see so far. 
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Or as Marty would say, you can't win the game when you turn the ball over more than your opponnet.
Marty would be wrong.
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The game once again proved that getting to the quarterback on defense, and giving your quarterback time on offense, is the key to winning games in the NFL.
Or as Marty would say, you can't win the game when you turn the ball over more than your opponnet.
Stopping the quarterback's ability to control the game,... 
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"Fire a Defensive, no I mean do not invite back a defensive coordinator who brings the heat and replace him with a "by the book" guy who lacks the talent to get any results other than to be bludgeoned by that book."
That is a great line,I'm going to hang onto it.
For the foreseeable future,that book and the football is going to be shoved up the Brown's collective arses.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I sorely wish I am wrong yet when i see my team once more speeding toward the abyss and then making pronouncements about a "new direction" I feel as a fan that I am in the back seat of the Cleveland browns mobile that is driven by Toonces the cat" Fasten your seatbelt, we will be getting double digit beatdowns again. 
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I sorely wish I am wrong yet when i see my team once more speeding toward the abyss and then making pronouncements about a "new direction" I feel as a fan that I am in the back seat of the Cleveland browns mobile that is driven by Toonces the cat"
Fasten your seatbelt, we will be getting double digit beatdowns again.
WAIT? Let me get this right,, if we hadn't made drastic changes, you would say that... But we do make drastic changes......and you still say that?
What the hell is it you want?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No the choices are not A or B Damon, so beat your own straw dog argument. I have no problem with mangini and Daboll out. I wanted Ryan, and Seeley In. At least attempt to keep them. I wanted a veteran HC and not another thin resume rookie who was never a head coach. heck i might even live with this guy had we kept Ryan and then the makeover would not have to have been a drastic one once more.
You may see improvement with "by the Book" Jauron over Ryan yet i cannot say Amen to that sermon. Ditto I cannot sing amen to the hiring of a rookie HC as well.
Yet replacing mangini Daboll could have been accoplished yet Seeley and Ryan with lesser talents is a big step back. Yet You agree Damonshot, looks like you version of Qunn as far as i see.
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No the choices are not A or B Damon, so beat your own straw dog argument. I have no problem with mangini and Daboll out. I wanted Ryan, and Seeley In. At least attempt to keep them. I wanted a veteran HC and not another thin resume rookie who was never a head coach. heck i might even live with this guy had we kept Ryan and then the makeover would not have to have been a drastic one once more.
You may see improvement with "by the Book" Jauron over Ryan yet i cannot say Amen to that sermon. Ditto I cannot sing amen to the hiring of a rookie HC as well.
Yet replacing mangini Daboll could have been accoplished yet Seeley and Ryan with lesser talents is a big step back. Yet You agree Damonshot, looks like you version of Qunn as far as i see.
Stop with the nonsense,, TELL ME WHAT YOU WANT
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The Nobel Prize for convoluted English?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Back on topic ..... there are really 4 lessons to be learned from the Packers:
1) Get the QB position right.
2) Defense wins championships.
3) Depth is vital.
4) Win the turnover battle.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Back on topic ..... there are really 4 lessons to be learned from the Packers:
1) Get the QB position right.
2) Defense wins championships.
3) Depth is vital.
4) Win the turnover battle.
Couldn't agree more Y'town. And let's look at how we shape up in those departments shall we?
1) We have a 3rd round hope and prayer. Let's all (me included) HOPE that works out for us, but the percentages are hugely stacked against us.
2) Do we even HAVE a defense right now? It's gone beyond a rebuild, it's a total blow up. Call me in about 5-6 years and I'll get back to you on this one.
3) We can't even begin to worry about depth until we can field a team full of reasonable starters.
4) This one is all on the players and execution. McCoy needs to get better. Hillis needs to get better, but this is the only one on the list I even see as doable.
Conclusion : 2-4 wins...and I'm erring on the low side.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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The success of the Packers started with a front office that supplied the talent and hired the staff that would coach/teach the talent.
The Packers latest push to win a Super Bowl started in 2005 with the hiring of a GM, Ted Thompson...who took over the GM duties from HC Mike Sherman.
Ted Thompson's first draft pick as GM of the Packers, was Aaron Rogers.
Sherman remained as HC for 2005 but when his team went 4-12, Thompson replaced Sherman with Mike McCarthy.
Anyone wanting to more about how the Packers became the 2010/2011 Super Bowl champions... web page
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Back on topic ..... there are really 4 lessons to be learned from the Packers:
1) Get the QB position right.
2) Defense wins championships.
3) Depth is vital.
4) Win the turnover battle.
None of the above happens if the Browns do not have a front office capable of assessing and acquiring talented players, hiring qualified coaches and providing all the necessary support.
A year ago, the Browns began to get the front office right, hiring some of the best people in the business to fill key positions in the front office.
....from that, came what might be the best Browns draft since 99.
This season, the front office set a new direction, hiring a new HC and replacing much of the coaching staff.
Now we wait for the labor agreement to be ironed out...there will be a draft, but off season programs are on hold.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Cut anybody good, badmouth them after they leave,( this board, not the team, ) and plug in somebody , ANYBODY to take their place.
Please show me this long list of high quality players we have cut...
Winslow (would probably have left, off field head case)
Faine (marginal at best but still a quality player)
Dawson (I'm early with this one.. but I think he's as good as gone)
The thing is, Winslow and Faine were eventually replaced with guys as good as or better than them. (mack and watson)
If they do that with Dawson, I got no problem. but I'd still like to see him remain with the team.
Not really a very long list is it?
Winslow has had two top seasons in Tampa and we were left with Horrid stone hands at TE. and we got veikune in the deal I think.
"marginal" faine made the pro Bowl in new orleans, our brain trust gave him away to a couple spots in the second to draft DQ. Real Smart
WE suffered several seasons with marginal play at center and created a hole where there was none.
We had a Bum after Winslow left and did not get quality in the trade, Watson did work out. the first statement i agree with.
We let our starting safety leave to start for the jets and had to watch slow elam again.
Edwards was Far batter than anything we got for him and has played well in NY. and we have a marginal recieving corps.
the reason the list of former browns who mad it elsewhere is short: well this list gives you a clue: Clark to garcia to Opie to Kokinis to heckert. after a decade of Chimps in the front office, we have a real GM.
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Winslow has had two top seasons in Tampa and we were left with Horrid stone hands at TE. and we got veikune in the deal I think.
Actually it was MoMass we got in the trade. Also, used the 5th round pick we got to trade up and select Hardesty. Winslow wanted to be paid as the best TE in the league the season after he missed 6 games due to injury.
KWII was 6th in yards and 12th in TD last year. Does that deserve to be the top paid TE in the league?
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"marginal" faine made the pro Bowl in new orleans, our brain trust gave him away to a couple spots in the second to draft DQ. Real Smart
WE suffered several seasons with marginal play at center and created a hole where there was none.
Faine was traded because we had signed LeCharles Bentley. After Bentley got hurt we traded for Hank Fraley, Fraley started at center for the next three years, until the team drafted Mack.
I'm not sure where there was ever a hole, Fraley played well for three years. Then Mack was drafted, he made the All-Rookie team last year and the Pro-Bowl this year.
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We let our starting safety leave to start for the jets and had to watch slow elam again.
Pool had 1 int, 1 sack, 11 pass defensed, 1 forced fumbles, and 38 tackles last year.
Elam had 2 ints, 2 sacks, 10 pass defensed, 2 forced fumbles (1 returned for TD), and 63 tackles.
Pool missed 6 games from 2008-2009 due to concussions. Pool had 4 concussions in his 5 years here.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
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214,, thanks for responding to Akronjoe,, as usual, he leaves out facts that would prove his thinking to be flawed.. Thanks for correcting him on all counts... I wonder what's next for him to stray from the facts on.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Lol, no problem Da-man. I'm mostly a lurker on here, I only poke my head in every once in a while. Usually, it's when someone makes some obscene accusations that I question or I find something intriguing and look it up to prove it.
I helped mac out earlier in this thread, when everybody questioned what he said about GB's roster.
Anyway, I'll crawl back into the shadows now, lol.
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Winslow has had two top seasons in Tampa and we were left with Horrid stone hands at TE. and we got veikune in the deal I think.
Actually it was MoMass we got in the trade. Also, used the 5th round pick we got to trade up and select Hardesty. Winslow wanted to be paid as the best TE in the league the season after he missed 6 games due to injury.
KWII was 6th in yards and 12th in TD last year. Does that deserve to be the top paid TE in the league?
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"marginal" faine made the pro Bowl in new orleans, our brain trust gave him away to a couple spots in the second to draft DQ. Real Smart
WE suffered several seasons with marginal play at center and created a hole where there was none.
Faine was traded because we had signed LeCharles Bentley. After Bentley got hurt we traded for Hank Fraley, Fraley started at center for the next three years, until the team drafted Mack.
I'm not sure where there was ever a hole, Fraley played well for three years. Then Mack was drafted, he made the All-Rookie team last year and the Pro-Bowl this year.
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We let our starting safety leave to start for the jets and had to watch slow elam again.
Pool had 1 int, 1 sack, 11 pass defensed, 1 forced fumbles, and 38 tackles last year.
Elam had 2 ints, 2 sacks, 10 pass defensed, 2 forced fumbles (1 returned for TD), and 63 tackles.
Pool missed 6 games from 2008-2009 due to concussions. Pool had 4 concussions in his 5 years here.
Ok we traded a top TE and left our QBs the Bum from Buffalo who got cut: a fine move. Momass is an average at best wr with uneven hands until he proves better. he actually REGRESSED last year. we got beat down in that trade, but my hats off to you if in your reality we did well.
We dumped faine who made two probowls. No one would ever mistake the gritty fraley as a pro bowl talent. Nice try. Bently should have been sued by the Browns as profootball talk highly intimated the guy reported injured and went down on his first play in practice and never payed a down for the browns. Wow. that worked out well for the browns as it took 4 years for us to find another top center. nice try.
Zip code Elam is a journeyman while Poole starts for a very talented jets team. Elam will not get top free agent money and will be hard pressed to start. he was rarely in the same zip code in coverage, nice stats. My guess he Does NOT start for Ryan( Rex) in NY. We got nothing for poole.
Ditto with Edwards, whom we left our QBs with a cadre of mediocrity..sorry the worst set of wrs in the NFL. Hold em till we can get a better deal.
This team makes stupid impulsive trades and dumping Rogers when he would be a year out from his achilles as teams like KC, Washington, NO and others are lining up for his services, but you are right he's washed up. This team is stuck on stupid.
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Zip code Elam is a journeyman while Poole starts for a very talented jets team. Elam will not get top free agent money and will be hard pressed to start. he was rarely in the same zip code in coverage, nice stats. My guess he Does NOT start for Ryan( Rex) in NY. We got nothing for poole.
Ditto with Edwards, whom we left our QBs with a cadre of mediocrity..sorry the worst set of wrs in the NFL. Hold em till we can get a better deal.
This team makes stupid impulsive trades and dumping Rogers when he would be a year out from his achilles as teams like KC, Washington, NO and others are lining up for his services, but you are right he's washed up. This team is stuck on stupid.
I only left those highlighted because the current regime (Heckert et. all) becuase these are the ones that occured on Heckerts watch.
Technically, Elam is a holdover from the Mangini era or power (regardless of how short it actually was) ... and he might be gone. I would point out that he wouldn't start in Ryan's system because ryan has Revis, Cromartie, Wilson ... but once again, I think he would be gone for good if we didn't have other more urgent needs.
As far as Rogers..? yeah we could have kept him and I won't badmouth him nor his efforts (though some could have questioned if he did bring 100% all the time...). But even if he is of starting quality for us for another year or two tops (which is questionable that he will be) HE could be considered a stop-gap at this point if he isn't going to hit the field and actually play.
People laugh about brining in an "old bum" like Delhomme and having the franchise faulter when he isn't adding a ton of value and we might as well groom a young guy so that guy can be a force in 2 or 3 seasons. That being said, I don't expect everyone to agree on Rogers, but that's ok because that's the only real questionable player-personnel decision that Heckert has made at this point.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Quote:
That being said, I don't expect everyone to agree on Rogers, but that's ok because that's the only real questionable player-personnel decision that Heckert has made at this point.
And he made that decision with more knowledge of the situation then everyone on this board combined. 
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Quote:
Quote:
That being said, I don't expect everyone to agree on Rogers, but that's ok because that's the only real questionable player-personnel decision that Heckert has made at this point.
And he made that decision with more knowledge of the situation then everyone on this board combined.
While I am sure that is true yet to cut Rogers who played on a recovering Achilles injury and bad mouth him maybe because you are embarrassed about 10 teams are lining up to make your move look less onerous is low rent.
Either the move stands on its own legs or not.
Ditto the trade of harrison for the Bum Bell, he added NOTHING and left a spent Hillis to get punished the last quarter of the season.
Then Blame mangini on the DE....Reminds me of Opie and how he slammed the browns past ineptitude and they were going in a new direction...no it was the same one yet his rocket fuel was to mock the previous regime. I have not heard Mangini say one bad thing about his saty with the browns and think it Mickey Mouse to blame him and mock Rogers.
While heckert may know more about football, I don't care what your business, throw mud on your past connections and see how that makes you look. Not so well I think most would agree.
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So aside from Rogers you are upset about the trade of Harrison for Bell and the trade for Jayme Mitchell?
Well some are still arguing the trade for Bell currently, but you can't blame it on Heckert because it was Mangini that wasn't playing him. Maybe we could have gotten something more for him, but we still would have needed a running back and that would have cost us picks. Why not grab a vet who has superbowl experience?
Mitchell is a questionable trade. He may still be a legitimate player here. He might never see the field in a Browns uniform. Sounds like you could say that about a lot of 7th round picks. It seems like we took a chance on him (what you do with 7th round flyers) and I would rather have an experienced guy when Rogers was banged up and Robaire was on the IR then bringing in no experience. Overall not bad for a 7th.
Heckert is plus on (so far) Haden, Ward, McCoy, and I would argue Asante (he played and started for tampa bay this year...), Hillis for Quinn, Fujita, Gocong, Sheldon Brown
Yet to decide on Hardesty, Lauvao, and Mitchell as well as a few others
Looks to have missed on Pashos, Delhomme, and *Maybe Harrison and Rogers (still being debated and only time will tell) ...
Let me know if I am missing anything, but it looks promising.
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@pstu24
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Heckert had a brilliant draft considering the brain power this organization has employed at GM. We need him to hit another one out of the park. I think Holmgren saw how mangini treated players and how he made some pariahs and would not play them, injury to the starter or not. I do not doubt that put a foot on the banana peel for mangini. The Trade for bell was horrendous, yet look at mangini Kokinis trades!!!Idiotic. three beans for a cow trades where the jets get a franchise QB, get braylon Edwards for almost diddly( three beans). And kokinis covered his butt by saying he first heard of Edwards trade on the radio..and the dumping of Winslow for squat: you will get no argument that heckert is not a HUGE improvement over dwight Clark, Pete Garcia, Phil Savage, Kokinis/Mangini. Yet I find him blaming mangini for past trades and trashing Rogers as real Bush league stuff.
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People laugh about brining in an "old bum" like Delhomme and having the franchise faulter when he isn't adding a ton of value and we might as well groom a young guy so that guy can be a force in 2 or 3 seasons. That being said, I don't expect everyone to agree on Rogers, but that's ok because that's the only real questionable player-personnel decision that Heckert has made at this point.
No, there were several questionable moves.1) signing Jake
2) declaring we needed no wrs last year
3) signing injury prone Tony Pashos, who hmmm, got injured.
4) trading several pcks to get Hardesty Deemed one of the riskiest picks by Profootball Weekly
5) trading Harrison for punch drunk Bell and dumping Davis, leaving the team to run a hobbled peyton Hillis into the ground.
6) cutting Rogers, a player who is another year removed from the Achilles he suffered in 09 and who was chased by several teams and signed by the saints from a position we are razor thin in talent.
7) dumping Rob Ryan( well not asking him to stay and letting him interview(signed in a day or two by Dallas) going 4-3 when we do not have the talent to run it and going with "by the Book" Jauron instead. I just have shivers thinking of how the front office spins another year of Pain.
They had their hits as well. I just don't shake my pom poms for every move
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