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They must be awfully confident that there will be a free agency period this year. Not sure how else they plan on replacing those guys.
If there is no free agency, there is also likely no season and thus no need for any of them anyway.
If there is no CBA and there is still a season, we'd be hiring scabs... again, no need for them.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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No free agency doesn't mean no season. It just means an agreement hasn't been made.
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j/c
Best of luck to those guys. Not surprising, IMO.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I'm okay with all of that.
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WE are stuck on stupid. profootballtalk.com reported when the browns had a gag on the nature of Rogers injury that it was an achilles. for a 350+lb human I knew that would take more than one season. he was playing injured for much of the 2010 season, so now that he is a year out from the injury, NOW we cut him?
Stuck on Stupid.
the other mangini men were marginal types but nice motivators, we lose locker room presence.
I'm wondering if maybe, just maybe "Stuck on Stupid" will go down in flames like "ham Sandwich" 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm wondering if maybe, just maybe "Stuck on Stupid" will go down in flames like "ham Sandwich"
Lol! That exact thought crossed my mind.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I'm wondering if maybe, just maybe "Stuck on Stupid" will go down in flames like "ham Sandwich"
Stuck on stupid is what I think on at least 75% of his posts! 
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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I am ecstatic that Rogers is no longer a part of this team. Guy could have been dominant had he given a damn - but he didn't. Don't let the door hit ya Shaun.
I wish Bowens the best wherever he ends up - whether it be with another team or on the sidelines somewhere as a coach.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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No free agency doesn't mean no season. It just means an agreement hasn't been made.
If we don't see any tenders to our RFA who must be tendered by April 15th and our URFA must be tendered 110% of the past years contract by June 1st.
No CBA = no FA = no season.
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I wish Bowens the best wherever he ends up - whether it be with another team or on the sidelines somewhere as a coach.
Ditto. I'm sad to see him go. I wish they would have hung on to him for another season.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm wondering if maybe, just maybe "Stuck on Stupid" will go down in flames like "ham Sandwich"
Stuck on stupid is what I think on at least 75% of his posts!
I gotta give Akronjoe just a little credit,, after it was clear that hillis was indeed the real deal and Quinn was the Real Ham Sandwich, he did admit his error in judgement on that move.
the thing that cracks me up is that after that debacle, he continues to make bold statements that are pretty outlandish.
I mean,, I don't think there is one of us on this board that thinks this team was anywhere near ready to compete.. And the key reason was a lack of talent.
So, what does Holmgren and company do? They rid themselves of a coach that didn't fit thier idea of what they wanted (not that I agreed with the move)and then today, they begin the purge of players that are over the hill, over the budget or just didn't fit where they intend to take the team
And Joe comes in and says they are "stuck on stupid"
Point is, this purge was needed given the abrupt direction shift we expect to see.
Not all decisions will work out for us. rarely does that happen for any team. But as long as the majority of them do, then I'm good with it.
I find it odd that anyone wouldn't be unless they just like to complain.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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j/c We all on this board knew this needed to happen. And if I remember correctly, these excact players were brought up often.. Barton old, and slow
St.(doorway) Clair, just plain sucked. Not proper english but true.
Royal, hurt us more than helped.
Colman, I liked but injuries and age. MEH
Rogers, love the guy, but injuries hurt him as much as us.
We needed to get younger, and in one day we saved coin and got way younger.
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Out with the old, slow and expensive.
In with the young, quick and cheap.
Just like life.
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Young, quick and cheap become,
young, quick and expensive and then
old, quick and expensive and then
old, slow and expensive and it all starts over again.
#gmstrong
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All Pro
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Robert Royal is gone!!! 
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There are 6 more roster spots open on the team.
I am not really surprised by any of the releases, with maybe the exception of Rogers, more from a financial perspective, than from anything else.
This is why trading draft choices in the first 4 rounds is such a bad idea. Short term benefit, for a loss
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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1st String
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The Browns had back to back lousy seasons with these guys in key roles. Thanks for the memories. I expect this to be the first of several waves of player turnover the Browns will make in the coming weeks. Be prepared for some big surprises. This is the way it goes with losing teams who bring in a new coach.
[color:"red"]"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
---Leonardo daVinci
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Legend
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Just a general reply here .......
I honestly don't know why so many people are so surprised that Rogers is gone.
The guy has been on the serious decline and injured for 2 years now. He has a total of 53 tackles and 4 sacks over the past 2 years combined. That's hardly greatness on display.
Rubin, by way of contrast, had 82 tackles in the past year alone. That's making an impact.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
WE are stuck on stupid. profootballtalk.com reported when the browns had a gag on the nature of Rogers injury that it was an achilles. for a 350+lb human I knew that would take more than one season. he was playing injured for much of the 2010 season, so now that he is a year out from the injury, NOW we cut him?
Stuck on Stupid.
the other mangini men were marginal types but nice motivators, we lose locker room presence.
If these players came into training camp, or pre-season, (if they exist this year) and lost out to some young talent, who Beat them by being better , then that's one thing.
But right now, they don't have anyone better. I'm talking about Rogers, and Colman as the 3rd and 4th d-lineman.
Barton and Bowens don't hurt as much because of that Linebacker that drafted 3 years ago, but Mangini cut him. ( same year picked as Rucker)
Rucker doesn't matter because you have Royal, then you cut Royal so it doesn't matter because you have Rucker who you cut 2 years ago, so they have developed ( thin Air ) into the 3rd tight end,
apparently bringing back Greg Estandia, well it seems your left with
Estandia who didn't make the roster last year, or Rucker who was a draft pick, (presumably because Estandia needed an upgrade) who didn't get time to develop ... so a draft pick cut with no time to develop, replaced with a player who didn't make the team who couldn't have developed, who is a throwback to before that draft pick investment.
We can try to remain positive, but , this kind of stuff happens every year.
(So you need transportation to work, you hire a neighbor to give you a ride, then you sign up for a month's bus pass, you pay the neighbor but don't ride with him, you buy a car, but refuse to pay for any gasoline, ... when the bus pass arrives, free for a month, you decide to pay day by day for a train ticket.)
If Roth is assumed gone, and Robaire is assumed retired, who do you have?
not real happy about this " process", this process is hard to watch. It's the same thing since 2005.
You can't win a division on the 9th of February, but you can assure that you won't win it.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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You know that we have 3 TE still on the roster, right?
Watson, Moore, and Alex Smith.
Now whether or not we keep Smith is still up in the air ..... but Royal is in no way,shape, or form, a WCO TE. He has unreliable hands. That eliminates him right off the bat.
Right now, at this time, before the draft and free agency, I think we'll miss Coleman more than we'll miss Rogers. However, there's a long, long way to go to get to the start of the 2011 season.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I agree. Blocking is the last thing a NCO coach is looking for.
He better be able to go out and catch the ball. If you want blocking to replace Royal, stick another OT or guard in there....and I'll be whoever we put in there could catch as well as Royals.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Somebody just like Raji the Nimble. VERY glad the two-legged crosswalk at RT is gone. I wish the LB's well if they can get afew more somewhere. Rogers was not unexpected. Youth movement will involve the line and ergo, we trust, a stable future. LIne is the bleeding first edge of competition. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I hated to see Rogers go but I understand.
Barton had a few good plays. I would have been happy to keep him.
Bowens and his 2 pick 6's against the Saints is all I can see! I liked the guy. He left it all on the field unlike so many of his team mates. Sorry to see him go but I fully understand the idea behind it.
Royal, good bye! Bad bad bad hands! Braylon's cuz? He was a decent blocker but as mentioned before me, a WCO TE needs to do much more....like catch the ball! I know, novel idea Robert.
St. Clair...I would end up banned if I could voice my true opinion about him. His paddy cake blocking, slow feet and his "whoops, I missed my block" attitude was enough to push me over the edge this year! Thank god he wasn't playing on the left side or we would have had more QB injuries than we did.
Coleman, I don't like this move at all. We had a solid DE that had a nose for the ball. I understand he was 31 but his veteran experience could have been useful.
I can't believe ol number 21 made it through the first round of cuts. I'm sure his age was his saving grace because it certainly wasn't his outstanding play this year.
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Quote:
Out with the old, slow and expensive.
In with the young, quick and cheap.
Just like life.
Exactly. Even if we stayed with a 3-4 we'd have to start replacing those old guys soon anyway.
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Out with the old, slow and expensive.
In with the young, quick and cheap.
Just like life.
We still talking football or women? 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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This is why trading draft choices in the first 4 rounds is such a bad idea. Short term benefit, for a loss
That depends,, if you are close to a Play off caliber team and you need one more important piece,,, then I don't see anything really wrong with it. The way we did it... as it turns out, was a big mistake.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Rogers, a 32 year old 10 year vet who's coming off an injury-riddled seasonhad some value,I think.. Still, Rogers makes plays and is a true freak. Chalk this up to the Holmgren defensive youth movement. But I agree that it seems early for such a move with Rogers.
To a man, every other one of those players was grossly overvalued by Mangini. This definitely can be viewed as a statement that Jauron will be installing a 4-3 and wants speed and youth.
Eric Barton: The first drive by Carolina in that game defined this guy... go re-watch it. 12 year vet.
David Bowens: Boring system 3-4 LB but a fish out of water in a 4-3. 11 year vet.
Kenyon Coleman: Strong dude, but a 9 year vet. At best a rotational DT in a 4-3. 9 year vet.
Robert Royal: Dropped 2 TD throws by McCoy in the final PIT game. 10 year vet.
John St. Clair: Continually beaten by speed rushers. It only helps a little that he's not on the blind side. 11 year vet.If he wasn't cut I would be furious.
They could have waited, but this might have been inevitable. Seriously Rogers is the only one who has value and I agree with you guys regarding Rogers, but you have to admit his days are numbered.
Losing all those particular other EM additions is like a weight off my shoulders... . This is almost an exact list of the guys I'd have dumped, except maybe Rodgers..woulda tried a trade.
I wonder if Jauron had any input into the Rogers move.
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j/c to add this...
Browns release Rogers, five other veterans, save $18 million in salaries
09:26 p.m. EST, Feb 09, 2011
Browns General Manager Tom Heckert wasn't bluffing when he said there would be turnover on the team's roster in an effort to spark a youth movement.
The Browns announced Wednesday that they have terminated the contracts of six veteran players: linebackers Eric Barton, 33, and David Bowens, 33; defensive linemen Kenyon Coleman, 31, and Shaun Rogers, 31; tight end Robert Royal, 31; and offensive right tackle John St. Clair, 33.
Barton, Coleman and St. Clair were regular starters during the 2010 season. Rogers, a three-time Pro Bowl selection, is the most high-profile player in the group, but ankle and hip injuries coupled with the emergence of nose tackle Ahtyba Rubin caused his production to plummet.
''We have some age on the team, and obviously we have to get younger,'' Heckert said Jan. 14 during Browns coach Pat Shurmur's introductory news conference. ''Pat and I will sit down, and once we get everything in place, we will decide which way we are going to go in a lot of positions. There's going to be some change. There's no question about it.''
The cuts will save the Browns about $18 million in base salaries, according to NFL Players Association records. An additional $1.5 million will be saved in roster bonuses, Fox Sports' Adam Caplan reported.
Rogers was signed through 2012 and due to make a base salary of $5.5 million next season, plus a roster bonus reportedly worth $500,000. He played in 15 games this season and started only once. He had a career-low 17 tackles, two sacks and a blocked field goal.
Coleman was in the final year of his contract, which included a base salary of $2.5 million for 2011 and a roster bonus reportedly worth $1 million. He started 14 of the 16 games in which he played, compiling 68 tackles, 21/2 sacks and three forced fumbles.
St. Clair was in the final year of his contract and set to make a base salary of $3.225 million next season. He missed time with a high-ankle sprain but started 10 of the 11 games in which he played.
Barton had two years left on his contract, which included a base salary of $3.05 million for 2011. He started 12 of the 16 games in which he appeared, had 66 tackles and won the Ed Block Courage Award after rebounding from a neck injury he suffered in 2009.
Royal was signed for two more years and was set to make a base salary of $2.045 next season. He started four of the 15 games in which he played, catching five passes for 56 yards and a touchdown.
Bowens was signed through 2012 with a base salary of $1.65 million in 2011. He started four of the 15 games in which he appeared, posting 40 tackles and returning two interceptions for touchdowns.
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Cleveland Browns release six players, including Shaun Rogers, David Bowens, Eric Barton and Kenyon Coleman
Mary Kay Cabot - February 09, 2011, 11:14 PM
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns' housecleaning under new coach Pat Shurmur began Wednesday when the team cut six players, including three-time Pro Bowl nose tackle Shaun Rogers and three of Eric Mangini's former Jets.
In addition to Rogers, the contracts of linebackers Eric Barton and David Bowens, defensive end Kenyon Coleman, right tackle John St. Clair and tight end Robert Royal were terminated. All six were over 30 and Barton, Bowens, and Coleman all played for Mangini in New York.
Rogers' departure comes as no big surprise, considering he started only one game in 2010 and never fully embraced the Mangini way. Rogers, who played under new Browns defensive coordinator Dick Jauron in Detroit, was set to make $5.5 million in 2011 and receive another $500,000 in bonuses.
"Appreciate all the kind words and support," Rogers said on Twitter Wednesday night, "but I guess the odyssey that I call my career pushes on to its next adventure...Thx cleveland for accepting the big fella for better or worse."
Rogers, 31, underwent ankle surgery after the 2009 season and was never fully healthy in 2010. He began training camp on the physically unable to perform list and practiced sparingly all season. He was plagued by hip and ankle injuries and played in fewer than 40 percent of the snaps.
Former defensive coordinator Rob Ryan always spoke highly of Rogers, praising him for playing injured. But his 17 tackles were a career low, as were his two sacks. He did block a field goal in Miami, the 14th of his career.
Rogers, an 11th-year pro, was acquired by former GM Phil Savage in a trade with the Lions in 2008 for cornerback Leigh Bodden and the Browns' third-round pick that year. Savage immediately signed Rogers to a six-year, $42 million deal, with $20 million guaranteed. Rogers made $23 million in his three seasons here.
Rogers had a stellar year in 2008, making 81 tackles and 4 1/2 sacks to earn his third trip to the Pro Bowl. But his rejuvenation was derailed when Mangini took over for Romeo Crennel after the season.
Rogers felt that Mangini snubbed him on two occasions, in the weight room and at the Greater Cleveland Sports Awards ceremony, and told his agent that he wanted out of Cleveland. The Browns refused to let him go, paying him his $6 million roster bonus instead. But Rogers, who was constantly double-teamed, never fully bought into the Mangini program and seemed to be biding his time. In 2009, he made 36 tackles, two sacks and defended one pass. He also blocked a field goal and two extra points.
Perhaps his biggest contribution the past two seasons was helping to develop his successor, Ahtyba Rubin. Some, including Rogers, felt Rubin deserved to make the Pro Bowl this season.
Rogers spent two seasons under Jauron in Detroit, where Jauron was coordinator in 2004-05 and interim head coach the final five games of 2005. Under Jauron, Rogers earned his first two Pro Bowl selections.
Coleman, 31, was acquired by the Mangini in the 2009 draft-day trade that enabled the Jets to select quarterback Mark Sanchez. The Browns also acquired safety Abe Elam and quarterback Brett Ratliff in the deal.
Coleman, a 10th year pro, started 27 games at left end over two seasons, producing 68 tackles, 2.5 sacks and three forced fumbles in 2010. Jauron is switching from a 3-4 front to a 4-3.
Bowens and Barton, both 33 and 13-year pros, were signed by Mangini as unrestricted free agents in 2009 to help implement his scheme and his methods. Bowens' biggest contribution came at the end of the 2009 season, when he moved inside because of injuries. Over the last eight games, he made 38 tackles, five sacks a forced fumble and an interception. But he was on the bubble during the final cuts of 2010 camp and was inactive for the opener, breaking a string of 100 straight games played.
Barton, who underwent neck surgery in the off-season, started 12 games in 2010, making 66 tackles with one forced fumble and one pass defensed.
Royal, 31, was signed in March of 2009. He started four games in 2010, catching five passes for 56 yards and a TD. One of the team's funniest players, he kept things light in the locker room and on the field.
St. Clair, 33, was also signed in March 2009 as a free agent. He was plagued by a high ankle sprain, but started 10 games at right tackle in place of Tony Pashos, who went on injured reserve with an ankle injury of his own.
The cuts signal a move to a younger roster. The Browns finished the season with 15 players 30 or older and were the third-oldest team in the NFL.
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God, I hope so. But cutting a guy who WAS a major contributor before a significant leg injury, I see no reason to rush cutting him now and not wait and see how much more recovered he can get. With our depleted and thin Dline, cutting a man who may return to 09 form seems stupid. We will see how rogers does on his next tour of duty. I can only HOPE I am as wrong as I was about Hillis. That worked out great as he played lights out.
I will take a drink on that. I still think cutting Rogers now is S T U P I D. and just about $$$$$. we have cute almost every major contract. DA, Rogers, Edwards, Winslow...I suspect only JT is drawing a major salary other than Holmgren. I just see this as short sighted. Seems like the ravens board is lit up about Rogers.
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I hated to see Rogers go, but figured it was coming. I'm sure they put out feelers about a trade. Didn't we hear rumors of that last year? Nobody in their right mind would take him with the contract he was under. Too much money for what you'd likely be getting.
St. Clair? I'm happy. It shows me that maybe this Front Office gets it.
The rest? They were OK, but getting some miles on them and were too expensive for what they produced.
The sky didn't fall this morning. Life goes on. And here we go into another "rebuilding" season...
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Bottom line we will need to sign many of our own FA's and bring in some outside FA help. We freed up 20 mil with these moves and who knows we may try to resign Rogers.
He would have made almost 6 mil next year and on the FA market i doubt he gets more than a 2 mil a year offer from anyone, unless there are major incentives tied into it.
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Hey I calls em as i sees em, when something totally surprises like Hillis, I LOVE BEING WRONG because that means something Good happened, and good is different in this long Groundhog day of ineptness that has lasted since modell blew town.
I think surgery would have been more welcome than the autopsy. I wanted Ryan and Seely to stay. If mangini was to be gone( I did not cry over that) I wanted a veteran head coach and not yet ANOTHER rookie with a thin resume. This first explosion says the team is to be dismantled once more and double digit blowouts may very well happen. had we kept Ryan, with another free agency period, and draft he could have made his competitive defense...dare I hope ..dangerous?
yet now we have yet another back to the drawing board. THAT is not progress to me.
Rogers sustained a major leg injury in 09( the browns said an ankle) Profootballtalk.com said Achilles, and due to his low motor lingering leg issues this season my money is profootball talk had it right. So NOW we cut him , a year removed when he could return to form.
I stand by what I say: stuck on stupid.
Peyton Hillis was the first true surprise that that worked out for my team. heck I
want to be wrong about Rogers too, yet i see more of the lack of due diligence when i see proclamations from berea as if they were the "ministry of truth".
Rogers had a major injury, why not wait for several months to see his recovery first. He will make a nice DT for some team, like we have a lot of bodies at that position.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,111
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,111 |
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They must be awfully confident that there will be a free agency period this year. Not sure how else they plan on replacing those guys.
If there is no free agency, there is also likely no season and thus no need for any of them anyway.
If there is no CBA and there is still a season, we'd be hiring scabs... again, no need for them.
Not necessarily true. Peter King has laid out how we could have a season w/o a FA period a couple of times. Here's one:
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This could be a bit of a moot point anyway. Now, don't all you free-agents-to-be panic out there. But one of the things the NFL is discussing in the event of a work stoppage that lasts 'til late in the preseason (or into the season) is the possibility of no free agency this season, and giving each free agent a premium to return to his team this year and delaying their entry into the free market 'til 2012.
Link
The chances of a deal being worked out in, say, very late august, is a real possibility. Do you really think they will delay the start of the season to have mini camps and what not. No way in hell. They all will want to be paid, that won't happen till the season starts.
Best case in the above scenario would be that you get 1 week of FA, tops.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
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God, I hope so. But cutting a guy who WAS a major contributor before a significant leg injury, I see no reason to rush cutting him now and not wait and see how much more recovered he can get.
If you don't see the reason, then frankly, you are blind.. he's due a bonus of 500k and a big salary.
The other thing is that you don't know (neither do any of us) if they tried to trade him. Maybe they got no takers. And maybe that means he returns at a lower number.
You calling them stupid is a knee jerk reaction similar to the ' ham sandwich' comment of last spring.
Let it play out. you may find that you like the results and if you let it play out, you won't have to admit a mistake.
Let's also face one other fact here,,, Rogers hasn't been himself for 2 years.. you wanna give him more time? for what?
I don't think getting rid of any of the players they cut yesterday is anything more than what it appeas to be on the surface.. it's a youth movement.. One that has the added benefit of reducing payroll.
18 million was shed yesterday.. That's a lot of good money to get FA's right there. Guys that can have an impact for years to come and that fit the plans going forward.
Stupid? I think not.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
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Out with the old, slow and expensive.
In with the young, quick and cheap.
Just like life.
ding, ding, ding
the team needs to get "younger' as well as cutting the bloated salaries.
Jake Delhomme next?
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,833 |
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Robert Royal is gone!!!
 no more Robert " Crown" Royal jokes.....
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551 |
Salary slashing could bring a few more casualties. Steiny and Jake are probably the most overpaid players that are left.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
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Salary slashing could bring a few more casualties. Steiny and Jake are probably the most overpaid players that are left.
That may be true, but Stieny is pulling his weight for the most part.. Jake really can't do that anymore.
Stieny being cut would leave a huge hole on the left side and with the huge holes we have on the right side, it may be more than we could over come in one off season.
So I'd bet you that stieny is safe this year.. but I wouldn't put a dime on Jake being here for the season.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Rogers, St.Clair, Barton, Royal,
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