|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,718
Hall of Famer
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,718 |
I think Congress talks about getting involved if it comes past mediation but they won't......you're on.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,901
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,901 |
Quote:
Amen and henceforth the gag order that has been imposed on both sides during mediation.
Hopefully mediation is being taken seriously by the owners and the players and the only leaks to the media will happen when the two sides are close to an agreement.
If the mediation becomes difficult or starts falling apart, look for the leaks to begin again.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,577 |
You kinda changed the bet. I said IF there is a lockout / strike.. then ipso facto.... Anyhoo.. you get my overall idea tho..
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Fl Dawg...you related to Florida fan?
Why do you ask? What's the relevance to this debate?
Quote:
There is nothing to prove the NFL's business model is not healthy and cannot be sustained.
What you posted "may" be fact, but it is meaningless if the owners will not back up their claims with specific facts.
The fact that the players income has doubled in this passed decade is proof enough in my book.
Further;
They have no right to ask the NFL to open their books.
Unless you're GB and IIRC they have, because they are a 'open' Public Market.
I doubt that there is a big variance with the other 31 teams in the League with their profit sharing.
Can someone please find me a precedence in where a 'closed' business has to open their books to their employees.
What makes them anymore the exception?
The IRS has a right to call for an in depth audit, but the findings aren't made public. I don't think there is a precedence for a privately owned company to open thier books to employees.. None that I am aware of anyway.
Obviously you gyys have never negotiated a CBA, I have and the NLRA says that a company must open their books when claiming financial hardship.
The legalese is much more complex than that,and there are a lot of high paid lawyers who will be filing suits and injuctions to block it but it may happen.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Just Clicking http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/02/tony_grossi_breaks_down_the_bi.htmlNot sure if this has been posted... Grossis primer on the whole thing Quote:
Tony Grossi breaks down the big questions on the NFL's labor confrontation
Published: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 8:07 PM Updated: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 8:08 PM
By Tony Grossi, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- On the NFL labor front, it's T minus 12 days, and counting.
The league's collective bargaining agreement expires at 11:59 p.m. on March 3. At the Super Bowl in Dallas earlier this month, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell sounded the alarm for both sides to intensify negotiations for a deal.
"I think that March 4 is a very critical date," Goodell said. "A lot of different strategies will take place if we're not successful in getting an agreement by that time."
Since then, the owners and players had one negotiating session that didn't go well. But growing pessimism was stanched somewhat this week when the sides agreed to continue talks under the auspices of Federal Mediation and Conciliatory Service Director George Cohen.
Unlike an arbitrator, a mediator can only make suggestions. Either side can take them to heart or walk out.
The good news is both sides have agreed -- for now -- to cut back the angry public rhetoric that has characterized the labor squabble so far.
Here's a Frequently Asked Questions primer on the state of the NFL's labor dispute.
1. What happens if a deal isn't reached by March 4?
The players believe the owners will impose a lockout. That means a total shutdown of all NFL business. The league stops paying players' health insurance. All bonus payments in existing contracts are suspended. Players cannot be signed or traded. Team management cannot have any contact with players, who are literally locked out of team facilities. Players have to make arrangements to continue injury rehabilitation on their own.
Goodell has fallen short of confirming a lockout will take place, but he characterized the prospect of no agreement by March 4 as "bad for our partners, bad for the players, bad for the clubs."
2. Other than a full labor agreement, how can a lockout on March 4 be averted?
The owners could declare an impasse in negotiations and implement their last best offer to the players. That strategy essentially would force the players union to decide whether to continue working under conditions unacceptable to them or withhold their services and strike. Also, the sides could continue to negotiate and conduct business as usual.
3. What are the key issues separating the two sides?
Money, money, and more money. The overriding issue is how to divide about $9 billion in yearly revenue. The last agreement in 2006 gave the players a favorable portion at roughly a 60-40 split. But that came after the owners subtracted $1 billion off the top for stadium debt service, which reduced the split to about 50-50. The players can live with that. The owners want to scratch another $1 billion off the top to redirect toward future stadium construction. That means less money for the players to split. They calculate it as an 18 percent pay cut.
They say their profits are diminishing and they need to set aside capital for future stadium construction for needy franchises like Minnesota, Oakland, San Francisco, San Diego and a potential one in Los Angeles. The players don't really believe it and are asking for the owners to open their financial books to them. The owners refuse to do that and counter that the players know all of the relevant financial data to forge an agreement.
5. Any other major issues?
The next two are Goodell's desire to expand the regular-season schedule to 18 games and the creation of some kind of wage-scale for incoming rookies. Money, of course, is driving both issues.
6. How would the expansion to 18 games work?
Goodell wants to eliminate two preseason games and transfer them to the regular season. That keeps the total number at 20 -- same as it's been for 32 years. He then could sell two more meaningful weekends of games to his network partners and derive more revenue for all involved.
7. Sounds good. What's the problem with it?
Players point out that injuries are on the rise already and adding two more games increases injury risk. They also point out their health coverage is only good for five years after they stop playing. They want that extended. Further, their base salaries are divided by the number of regular-season games, plus one current bye week. They are unwilling to play two additional games without getting paid more for them.
8. Are there other problems with Goodell's 18-game plan?
Maybe not problems, but adjustments would have to be made. The whole off-season format and schedule would have to be revised. There would be fewer "organized team activity" sessions, which wouldn't be a bad thing. Training camps might be shorter. Team scrimmages would come back in vogue. Some coaches feel four exhibition games are necessary to fully evaluate a roster and prepare for the real games. But the coaches don't have a voice in this. An 18-game season likely would result in two bye weeks, which would stretch the regular season into mid-January and the Super Bowl into late February. Rosters would have to expand and injured reserve rules would be modified to allow players to come back from an injury list during the season. Coaches might have to cut back on the number of practices with full gear during the season. None of this is insurmountable, but quality of play could suffer.
9. Any other negatives?
Steelers chairman Dan Rooney pointed out years ago that adding two games to the regular season raises the probability of more bad games in the final month that would be difficult to sell. Deserted stadiums will play host to games between teams with 2-14 and 3-13 records.
10. Why don't they just cut two preseason games out? Or reduce the prices of the four preseason games?
That makes sense. But it doesn't make dollars. The NFL is the only pro sports league that has been able to charge full ticket prices for glorified team scrimmages. Owners don't want to give that up.
11. What about the rookie wage-scale?
Most everyone agrees it's ridiculous for unproven high draft picks to receive contracts now routinely calling for $25 million and up in guaranteed money. The owners say a rookie wage-scale would redirect more money to veteran players. Players aren't sure about that. The union contends nobody's held a gun to the heads of a team to give lavish guarantees. Player agents would suffer most from a wage-scale because they wouldn't get their lucrative cut of high-end rookie contracts.
12. What's your gut feeling on when this dispute is resolved?
I think the owners have been stewing for four years about the last extension they agreed to. Besides the economic windfall to the players, the fine print of that agreement handcuffed teams from recouping large sums of bonus money from players who violate their contract through extended holdouts or unlawful behavior off the field. Players and union leaders rubbed it in about how they finally "won" a contract negotiation with the owners after decades of losses. I think the owners are unified in digging in to reclaim control of "their league." If there is no deal by March 4, I don't see one coming until August, at the earliest.
© 2011 cleveland.com. All rights reserved.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Do we know for sure that Peyton Manning does know how to read a corporate revenue chart?
I mean he's a smart QB and he's very rich.. neither of which means he knows how to read a revenue chart.
Maybe not but he will have some very nicely paid finanacial gurus with him to read it and tell him what it says.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
The NLRB does not have the final say.
That would be decided by a Court of Appeals Judge.
The union would have to prove that the owners where not bargaining in 'good faith'.
Key! They are also required to do the same.
(Walking out of meetings is not in good faith imo)
'Reasonable proof' is all that is required on the owners behalf to show 'good faith' in the (a) CBA with the players union.
Accelerated cost
=(flow chart).
I'm just saying there are ways for the owners present their case without having to open their books.
The whole point of the Collective Bargaining
under Binding Arbitration is for the (two) sides to workout their indifference and come to an Agreement without reverting to litigation.
Mediation is often times the conduit that is used in an attempt to not let it get to the point of litigation.
My thoughts today are...how trivial their case is when compared to what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be followed by other States, Ohio at the top of the list.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
My thoughts today are...how trivial their case is when compared to what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be followed by other States, Ohio at the top of the list.
That, and one of the reasons I enjoy NASCAR,....no union.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
OooRah, I hate to think about not having NASCAR back in the day, when Mole'del moved the Browns. I was living in Rock Hill SC (near NC) at the time. Built (concrete) some of their engine shops near Lake Norman. They didn't care if I was union either. #6 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
On (another) one-and-done choice, I would have to take football over NASCAR,...but my thought was, we don't see Jeff Gordon going on strike, the little guys don't seem to be complaining about their pittance wages -- done on a strict scale, by the way & based on performance, and in a sport way more dangerous than football, safety is a real priority, not just given lip service like the NFL does. All done without a CBA and/or a union involved.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,119
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,119 |
Long session earlier this past week. Hope it helps. I agree fan backlash might be heavy. Who will win what is arguable at best. Get on with it! 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
On (another) one-and-done choice, I would have to take football over NASCAR,...but my thought was, we don't see Jeff Gordon going on strike, the little guys don't seem to be complaining about their pittance wages -- done on a strict scale, by the way & based on performance, and in a sport way more dangerous than football, safety is a real priority, not just given lip service like the NFL does. All done without a CBA and/or a union involved.
Golfers fall into this same category as well, no striking or locking out golfers. So maybe like Nascar and Golf the players should be allowed to supplement their incomes and sell advertising on their uni's. Imagine no team logos on the side of helmets any longer, just Goodyear, Met Life or Buick logo's! Pay scales could be reduced since the players would have anther avenue to address income and of course the better players would be able to demand a higher rate.
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
I understand the advertising price just to get a little fender sticker on a stock car is upwards of crazy,....
Advertising on football uniforms,....yuk,....not a bad "money" idea though.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,150
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,150 |
Have you ever seen those European professional hockey uniforms? They're labeled up just like the race cars. It's awful.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
The NLRB does not have the final say.
That would be decided by a Court of Appeals Judge.
The union would have to prove that the owners where not bargaining in 'good faith'.
Key! They are also required to do the same.
(Walking out of meetings is not in good faith imo)
'Reasonable proof' is all that is required on the owners behalf to show 'good faith' in the (a) CBA with the players union.
Accelerated cost
=(flow chart).
I'm just saying there are ways for the owners present their case without having to open their books.
The whole point of the Collective Bargaining
under Binding Arbitration is for the (two) sides to workout their indifference and come to an Agreement without reverting to litigation.
Mediation is often times the conduit that is used in an attempt to not let it get to the point of litigation.
My thoughts today are...how trivial their case is when compared to what's happening in Wisconsin and soon to be followed by other States, Ohio at the top of the list.
You explained it much better than me,thank you,that was the legalese I was referring too.
Many have stated there is no way that the NFLPA could have a right to see the books,and that is just not true. I have been in a contract negotiation where the company had to provide us with a copy of their financial numbers for the previous. Fiscal year. They are allowed to black out any confidential proprietary info but were required to give us the numbers.
They weren't happy about it because it turned out they had been screwing us on profit sharing and had to pay that back pay,plus interrest.
King
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
How is a 50/50 split a windfall for the players?
I'll say it again. I just can't believe these dopes can't figure out a way to split $9,000,000,000.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,830
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,830 |
Quote:
How is a 50/50 split a windfall for the players?
I'll say it again. I just can't believe these dopes can't figure out a way to split $9,000,000,000.
Well, they can't, so how many times are you going to say it???
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
How is a 50/50 split a windfall for the players?
I'll say it again. I just can't believe these dopes can't figure out a way to split $9,000,000,000.
Well, if I read it correctly, they are saying it was a 60/40 split but after you deduct 1 billion, it works out closer to 50/50.
Now the owners want to take another 1 billion out of the pool for stadiums.
So, to me, it's 7 billion that gets split. I think that leaves about 109 Million per team. what was the cap the last year we had one?
would that not be the money difference without consideration for number of games...
And if the owners get what they want (rookie salary cap) wouldn't the bulk of that go towards the veterans?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
- done on a strict scale, by the way & based on performance, and in a sport way more dangerous than football, safety is a real priority, not just given lip service like the NFL does. All done without a CBA and/or a union involved.
Completely and totally false, the drivers do not get paid based on a strict scale based on performance. The drivers get paid based on a contract that they sign with the car owners. The drivers don't get paid directly from race winnings, the car owners do and the drivers get paid what their contract calls for. Their contracts are negotiated by agents and lawyers and are based on the amount of revenue that driver brings in from race winnings,sponsorships, and merchandising licenses and sales.
Some, more popular drivers, make way more money than other drivers who win more races and finish higher in points. Hell Jeff Gordon is still one of the highest paid drivers and he hasn't won crap for years, huh Shep?
There has been talk of a drivers union, but NASCAR has been pretty stand up about giving the teams what the union would be fighting for anyways so really the union thing never gained any traction.
King
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,718
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,718 |
Quote:
Completely and totally false, the drivers do not get paid based on a strict scale based on performance.
I wouldn't refer to it as completely and totally false. The scale comes in on order of finish, which is performance based. (except on plate tracks where its luck)
And.....back to the important stuff:
League, union reps hold longest meeting of mediation process
By Albert Breer NFL Network
NFL Network Reporter
WASHINGTON -- The NFL and the NFL Players Association met before federal mediator George S. Cohen for the third straight day on Sunday, in an effort to close the sizable gap in their labor negotiations in advance of the expiration of the current collective bargaining agreement on March 3.
Sunday's meetings lasted over eight hours, with officials from both sides trickling into the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service building before 9 a.m. ET on Sunday, and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith arriving just before 10 a.m. Officials from both sides left after 6 p.m., making Sunday's session the longest day of negotiations since the NFL and NFLPA arrived in Washington on Friday.
The two sides have now met for a total of over 20 hours and there are four days left of scheduled meetings before Cohen.
Cohen directed both sides to stay quiet through the process, and everyone approached after each day has adhered to the request and refused to discuss the tenor, tone or content of these talks.
"You know we're not going to give you any information," said NFL outside counsel Bob Batterman, when approached for comment. "I can't say anything other than the fact that we are meeting."
Batterman did offer thereafter that Cohen is a "first-class negotiator." Retired player Pete Kendall said with a smile that "the code of silence around these meetings is a like a circle of trust."
New York Jets fullback Tony Richardson added that the "conversation is good," as he hopped in a car to leave the meeting with Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Charlie Batch.
Also present was NFL general counsel Jeffrey Pash, NFLPA general counsel Richard Berthelsen, NFLPA outside counsel Jeffrey Kessler, Browns linebacker Scott Fujita, and ex-player Sean Morey. Fujita, Morey, Batch and Richardson serve on the union's executive committee, while Kendall has been appointed a "permanent player representative."
The plan is for the sides to meet again on Monday, and go right through Thursday, with the clock ticking to the expiration of the CBA. The union chiefs will meet with player agents at a mandatory summit at the scouting combine on Friday, and the league has meetings scheduled on March 2 and 3 in Northern Virginia near D.C.
Prior to Sunday's meeting, Pash said, "We are working hard and following the director's playbook. We'll see what we come up with."
The players believe that team owners are preparing to lock them out as soon as March 4, which could threaten the 2011 season.
News of the start of mediation could be a positive sign after several months of infrequent negotiations -- and frequent rhetoric, including charges from each side that the other was hoping for a work stoppage.
The league and union went more than two months without any formal bargaining until Feb. 5, the day before the Super Bowl. The sides met again last week but called off a second meeting that had been scheduled for the following day.
The most recent CBA was signed in 2006, but owners exercised an opt-out clause in 2008.
The biggest issue separating the sides is how to divide about $9 billion in annual revenues. Among the other significant points in negotiations: the owners' push to expand the regular season from 16 games to 18 while reducing the preseason by two games, a rookie wage scale and benefits for retired players.
Cohen was involved in Major League Soccer's negotiations with its players' union last year, when a possible work stoppage was avoided.
He was the baseball players' association's lead lawyer in federal court in 1995, when the National Labor Relations Board obtained an injunction against owners from then-District Judge -- and now Supreme Court Justice -- Sonia Sotomayor that led players to end their strike, which lasted more than seven months.
The FMCS was involved in negotiations during the 2004-05 NHL lockout and in a 2005 dispute between the U.S. Soccer Federation and national team players.
The Associated Press contributed to this report.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Quote:
- done on a strict scale, by the way & based on performance, and in a sport way more dangerous than football, safety is a real priority, not just given lip service like the NFL does. All done without a CBA and/or a union involved.
Completely and totally false, the drivers do not get paid based on a strict scale based on performance. The drivers get paid based on a contract that they sign with the car owners. The drivers don't get paid directly from race winnings, the car owners do and the drivers get paid what their contract calls for. Their contracts are negotiated by agents and lawyers and are based on the amount of revenue that driver brings in from race winnings,sponsorships, and merchandising licenses and sales.
Some, more popular drivers, make way more money than other drivers who win more races and finish higher in points. Hell Jeff Gordon is still one of the highest paid drivers and he hasn't won crap for years, huh Shep?
There has been talk of a drivers union, but NASCAR has been pretty stand up about giving the teams what the union would be fighting for anyways so really the union thing never gained any traction.
King
Does that mean it's based on where I finish, or do I just have to show up like I can in the NFL ?
Everyone knows how popularity gets paid,...total package ?? I agree. But I'm talking about performance/competition pay. Finish last here and you get the pie's smallest slice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
How is a 50/50 split a windfall for the players?
I'll say it again. I just can't believe these dopes can't figure out a way to split $9,000,000,000.
because out of the players 50 percent they only pay for their personal lifestyles.
The owners 50% pays for the coaches, trainer, janitors, office personnel, scouts, travel expenses, stadium and training facility upkeep and utilities, uniforms, advertising, brochures, promotions, etc, etc, etc.
The key is how much all that adds up to.
And the $1 billion off the top of the 9 billion does not go to the owners, it goes the the NFL organization for it's costs.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Does that mean it's based on where I finish, or do I just have to show up like I can in the NFL ?
Everyone knows how popularity gets paid,...total package ?? I agree. But I'm talking about performance/competition pay. Finish last here and you get the pie's smallest slice.
No, the owner gets race winnings based on where his car finished, not the driver. The driver gets paid based on his contract. Jimmie Johnson wrecked out early yesterday, he still gets a huge paycheck because his contract says so. Now same as in NFL, if you do this for long then you get fired from that contract.
King
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
Good points, Florida.
One thing I just plain don't know is how much that "overhead" costs. Does the 1 billion cover it? Like I said, I just have no idea.
I'd like to see how much all that "overhead" does cost, including how much the NFL needs for its "costs". After subtracting that, I think it would be easier to see what kind of number we're dealing with.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,901
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,901 |
Quote:
There has been talk of a drivers union, but NASCAR has been pretty stand up about giving the teams what the union would be fighting for anyways so really the union thing never gained any traction.
King
If business owners/management treat their workers with respect and in a fair manner...decent wage/benefits, decent hours and maintains a safe working environment...chances are those workers might not need a union.
But not every business owner/management, treat their workers with respect and in a fair manner. One of the ways to counter the power disrespectfully owners had, was for workers to unify and act as one, withholding their labor until the issues were addressed.
Unions have a long history in America and date back to the first settlers.
From the History of Unions...
.............The roots of our country's trade unions extend deep into the early history of America. Several of the Pilgrims arriving at Plymouth Rock in 1620 were working craftsmen. Captain John Smith, who led the ill-fated settlement in 1607 on Virginia's James River, pleaded with his sponsors in London to send him more craftsmen and working people.
Primitive unions, or guilds, of carpenters and cordwainers, cabinet makers and cobblers made their appearance, often temporary, in various cities along the Atlantic seaboard of colonial America.
Workers played a significant role in the struggle for independence; carpenters disguised as Mohawk Indians were the "host" group at the Boston Tea Party in 1773.
The Continental Congress met in Carpenters Hall in Philadelphia, and there the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776. In "pursuit of happiness" through shorter hours and higher pay, printers were the first to go on strike, in New York in 1794; cabinet makers struck in 1796; carpenters in Philadelphia in 1797; cordwainers in 1799. In the early years of the 19th century, recorded efforts by unions to improve the workers' conditions, through either negotiation or strike action, became more frequent.
By the 1820s, various unions involved in the effort to reduce the working day from 12 to 10 hours began to show interest in the idea of federation-of joining together in pursuit of common objectives for working people.
web page
....................................................................................
Back to NASCAR...management includes the drivers and listens to their concerns and both address the issues that arise in their sport...they seems to be a mutual respect and a decent give and take.
But NASCAR drivers have talked about forming a union and just the talk of a union has brought management to sit down and treat those drivers concerns with due respect.
I found this to illustrate the point...
Few people realize that little more than a decade ago, Earnhardt rounded up a mix of NASCAR stars including Dale Jarrett, Jeff Gordon and Terry Labonte for a meeting with NASCAR's then-CEO, the late Bill France Jr., and other NASCAR executives to talk about a drivers organization that would speak as a unified voice about drivers' concerns.
"Earnhardt was the voice and it was pretty much his idea and Mr. France listened and was very attentive,'' said Jarrett, the 1999 Cup champion, now a NASCAR race analyst with ESPN.
"Of course Mr. France did say, 'Y'all are flying in bigger airplanes than us, maybe we need the help.'
"But he was honest and he helped us understand that some things were more complex than realized. And even though we didn't create an organization then, we always felt we had a voice.''
web page
.............................................................................................
Also, the Indy Racing League drivers, Formula One drivers and National Hot Rod Association drivers have organized while NASCAR appears to be at the doorstep.
Again, as long as NASCAR acts as a partner with the drivers, rather than a dictator over the drivers, the drivers may not need to organize. Simply talking about organizing seems to be working well for NASCAR drivers as of now.
jmho..mac
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Mac thanks for the history lesson/illustrate the point....
I don't think the Union debate is about what good has come of them to some and in general to all in the past.
The debate is about the here and now.
Just saying.
Back to the point of the CBA discussion...since when did we start limiting what a business owner was allowed to make in this country? And where does this mentality come from?
Envy?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Because some people would rather take a piece of your pie than risk making their own pie.
That's why aside from a few specific issues relating to healthcare and such of the retired players (from decades ago) ... I really am starting to side with the owners. Especially when I am starting to believe that every dollar the owners lose out on, I can almost ASSUME that will be one more dollar charged to me (or anyone else reading this) in the form of nachos, beer, parking, tickets, jerseys, etc.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
I can almost ASSUME that will be one more dollar charged to me (or anyone else reading this) in the form of nachos, beer, parking, tickets, jerseys, etc
Your mistake is in thinking that the price won't go up anyway.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Mac thanks for the history lesson/illustrate the point....
I don't think the Union debate is about what good has come of them to some and in general to all in the past.
The debate is about the here and now.
Just saying.
Back to the point of the CBA discussion...since when did we start limiting what a business owner was allowed to make in this country? And where does this mentality come from?
Envy?
but when they pay that the workers make is
Directly based on a percentage of what the owners make then the workers need to know what is being made.
That being said, unions want owners/businesses to thrive and do well, they just want to share in the success that their hard work contributes to. The argument comes into play when they can't decide who gets more, its basic greed on both sides.
King
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
And your's is that if the owners know that fans can expect to pay more ... why not account for what they lost and push it up just a "little" higher?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
I can almost ASSUME that will be one more dollar charged to me (or anyone else reading this) in the form of nachos, beer, parking, tickets, jerseys, etc
Your mistake is in thinking that the price won't go up anyway.
The question there would be, at what price point does the increased price not overcome loss of sales. Because at some point people will choose not to purchase a couple beers or the nachos. I for one can goto an event and not buy 1 drink or snack, in fact I refuse to buy more than one $7 beer at an event.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Absolutely, and both you and Otto are right. But I was just saying if I am an owner (or anyone) and want to increase costs/prices it will always be met with some resistance. However ... if you are expecting an increase and I KNOW you are expecting that increase, it either
A. makes the increase acceptable with little to no resistance (if I raised the prices a nickel a beer on an already $7.00 beer, who cares or even notices) ... or
B. it allows me to be more risky and increase the prices more than I have to so that I can make up for what I suffered from the CBA. Example: you are expecting a slight raise, so I am bold and increase the prices from $7.00 to $7.75 per beer (but maybe I give them to you in a plastic commemorative cup/mug that only cost me 20 cents a cup... still netting close to 55 cents extra) per.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
but when they pay that the workers make is
Directly based on a percentage of what the owners make then the workers need to know what is being made.
You have made a good point.
But why do we think the division should be equal? Or not favor the business owner?
Envy/Greed/ Jealousy/... 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,349 |
Quote:
Quote:
but when they pay that the workers make is
Directly based on a percentage of what the owners make then the workers need to know what is being made.
You have made a good point.
But why do we think the division should be equal? Or not favor the business owner?
Envy/Greed/ Jealousy/...
Labor costs are a part of doing business, it seems to me the owners were fine with their labor costs being 58 % before,but now have a problem with that. Ok then,fine. Show it,show why that is no longer feasible.
Lets keep in mind that these owners are part of ownership groups,they are part of a corporation. Technically Randy Lerner does not "own" the Cleveland Browns, he is however is the largest shareholder of The Cleveland Browns INC.These guys all get cuts pre profit, the profit is what is left over AFTER they have all gotten their share of revenue.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I can almost ASSUME that will be one more dollar charged to me (or anyone else reading this) in the form of nachos, beer, parking, tickets, jerseys, etc
Your mistake is in thinking that the price won't go up anyway.
The question there would be, at what price point does the increased price not overcome loss of sales. Because at some point people will choose not to purchase a couple beers or the nachos. I for one can goto an event and not buy 1 drink or snack, in fact I refuse to buy more than one $7 beer at an event.
There are plenty who have reached that price point,....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I can almost ASSUME that will be one more dollar charged to me (or anyone else reading this) in the form of nachos, beer, parking, tickets, jerseys, etc
Your mistake is in thinking that the price won't go up anyway.
The question there would be, at what price point does the increased price not overcome loss of sales. Because at some point people will choose not to purchase a couple beers or the nachos. I for one can goto an event and not buy 1 drink or snack, in fact I refuse to buy more than one $7 beer at an event.
There are plenty who have reached that price point,....
Ha, I've been there for a number of years already so it won't mean anything to me if they double all prices..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
because out of the players 50 percent they only pay for their personal lifestyles.
The owners 50% pays for the coaches, trainer, janitors, office personnel, scouts, travel expenses, stadium and training facility upkeep and utilities, uniforms, advertising, brochures, promotions, etc, etc, etc.
Not arguing fair or unfair here but out of the player's 50% it goes to pay out all the players. What are there like nearly 2000 or so.
Out of the owner's 50% it gets split up between 32 of them. While it doesn't merely pay for their personal lifestyles only, as you've shown it does go to pay for the upkeep of their personal business, which each of them own and there's a pretty penny left over for a fine personal lifestyle as well.
I only mention this obvious difference because it does get repeated here as though fellow "A" gets 50% for himself while fellow "B" has expenses to pay.
They've all got expenses to pay. Fellow "A" has 2000 kids while fellow "B" has 32... and then of course there's the upkeep on the nice little NFL team they each own.
I don't want the league to suffer and I don't want the players to be taken advantage of so the league can simply stuff their pockets. But not only is the NFL a business it's a BIG business. It has to be properly fed to thrive and I want it to thrive. I also want the players to prosper and the old timers to be taken care of in their old age. Hell, it was those old timers who made the NFL so dang exciting early on.
I'm sure there's a middle ground whereas everyone can share in the wealth and the league can continue to grow and prosper. And I'm sure they can settle the issue if only they all want to do so.
"War Is Over If You Want It". John Lennon's song phrase might seem a bit too simplistic but really, all they have to do is to want it, all of them to want it, and they can come to a solution.
All it takes is one side, either side, to be greedy and it drags on and on.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Labor costs are a part of doing business, it seems to me the owners were fine with their labor costs being 58 % before,but now have a problem with that. Ok then,fine. Show it,show why that is no longer feasible.
They where not happy and that's why they opted out in 08.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
j/c NFL, union log 25-plus hours in 4 days of talks By HOWARD FENDRICH, AP Pro Football Writer WASHINGTON (AP)—At least one person participating in the federally mediated NFL labor negotiations was willing to say something—anything—about how he felt after more than 25 hours of meetings over four days. “Things are going well right now,” said Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Charlie Batch(notes), a member of the NFL Players Association executive committee. “We’ll see how things progress over the next couple days.” Batch didn’t discuss any details on his way out of Monday’s session. NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith left at 6 p.m., about seven hours after Monday’s session began. NFL executives departed minutes after Smith. None would take questions about the negotiations; the sides agreed not to comment publicly during mediation. After months of infrequent—and sometimes contentious—bargaining, the league and union have been communicating face-to-face since Friday. The sessions are taking place at the office of George Cohen, director of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, a U.S. government agency. The league and union agreed to try mediation in a bid to find common ground before the current labor deal expires at the end of the day March 3. The union has said it believes team owners want to lock out the players as soon as the next day, which could threaten the 2011 season. The sides met for about six hours on both Friday and Saturday, and another eight hours Sunday. Cohen announced Thursday the groups agreed to the mediation, which is not binding but is meant as a way to spur progress. The plan calls for several days of negotiations with Cohen present. “Any time that you talk,” Batch said, “you have to feel better.” He and two other current players—Cleveland Browns linebacker Scott Fujita(notes) and New York Jets fullback Tony Richardson(notes)—left Monday at 5 p.m., getting into cars that were heading to the airport. It wasn’t clear whether other players would take their spots with the union’s negotiating team in Washington. The NFL’s group began arriving at 8 a.m. Monday, and Commissioner Roger Goodell walked in alone shortly after 9 a.m. The NFL’s group included general counsel and lead labor negotiator Jeff Pash and outside lawyer Bob Batterman. Smith got to Cohen’s office at about 11 a.m., entering with Fujita. Former players Pete Kendall(notes) and Sean Morey(notes) also were part of the union contingent Monday, along with lawyers Richard Berthelsen and Jeffrey Kessler. The league and union went more than two months without any formal bargaining until Feb. 5, the day before the Super Bowl. The sides met again once the next week, then called off a second meeting that had been scheduled for the following day. The most recent CBA was signed in 2006, but owners exercised an opt-out clause in 2008. The biggest issue separating the sides is how to divide about $9 billion in annual revenues. Among the other significant points in negotiations: the owners’ push to expand the regular season from 16 games to 18 while reducing the preseason by two games; a rookie wage scale; and benefits for retired players. link
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,150
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,150 |
25 hours over 4 days? I know teachers that work more than that.  Seriously though, how much of that time is actually spent negotiating? They have a lot of work to do. 18 game season, rookie salaries, healthcare coverage for the retirees, opening the books, percentage of revenue, etc. are all sticking points. 4 March is fast approaching.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum NFL Collective Bargaining
Agreement Part Deux
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif){kind=logo}
