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I wonder how many voters understood the agenda of the GOP/Tea Party politicians they elected in Nov?
This is what you voted for...a national, organized GOP/Tea Party movement, attacking middle class families in northern states who happen to be union members.
This anti-union movement is a national GOP/Tea Party movement and goes beyond state governments as it is no accident that his is happening in Maine, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, at the same time.
Just as quickly as the GOP/Tea Party became popular...they can become unpopular when they attack middle class workers and their families...jmho
Public Employee Union Protests Spread From Wisconsin to Ohio
Feb 18, 2011
In what union leaders say is becoming a national fight, protests against legislation to restrict public employees’ collective-bargaining rights spread from Wisconsin to Ohio.
In Madison, Wisconsin, crowds that police estimated at 25,000 engulfed the Capitol and its lawns yesterday during a third-straight day of protests as Democratic senators boycotted the legislative session. In Columbus, Ohio, about 3,800 state workers, teachers and other public employees came to the statehouse for a committee hearing.
Firefighters Dave Hefflinger and Jerry Greer stood near hundreds of workers elbow-to-elbow in the Ohio statehouse atrium and listened to the Senate hearing through speakers. Chants of “Kill the bill” echoed.
“We’re here to support our brothers and sisters,” Hefflinger, a 27-year veteran, said in an interview. “They’re trying to take away what we fought for all of these years.”
Hefflinger, 49, and Greer, 39, members of the department in Findlay, Ohio, drove two hours south to protest the bill. The measure would eliminate collective bargaining for state workers, prevent local-government employees from negotiating for health insurance and replace salary schedules with merit pay.
With states facing deficits that may reach a combined $125 billion next year, Republican governors and legislatures in states including Wisconsin, Ohio and New Jersey are targeting changes in rules for collective bargaining and worker contributions for health-care coverage and pensions.
Wisconsin Walkouts
In Wisconsin, Republican Governor Scott Walker championed a bill that would make public workers bargain for wages alone and require them to pay 5.6 percent of their pension costs; they pay nothing now. They would have to foot 12 percent of their health- care premiums, up from 6 percent. Police and firefighters wouldn’t be covered by the measure, which Republican legislative leaders had hoped to pass by the weekend.
Yesterday, University of Wisconsin-Madison students walked out of classes at the urging of student government and campus newspapers and marched to the Capitol. There, they joined protesters who filled the rotunda to chant, bang drums and sing, and spilled outside.
The protesters ranged from retired autoworkers with Veterans of Foreign Wars caps to Madison high-school students whose classes were canceled for a second-straight day after nearly half of public-school teachers called in sick to protest.
“We’re here because Walker is doing the stupidest thing you could ever do,” said Clara Katz-Andrade, 15, who came to support her teachers.
‘Ideological Battle’
In a telephone interview Feb. 15, Walker said he spoke with Ohio’s Republican Governor John Kasich.
“Don’t blink,” Walker said when asked what advice he gave Kasich about demonstrations.
The bills are an attempt to weaken unions, said John Russo, a professor and co-director of the Center for Working-Class Studies at Youngstown State University in Ohio.
“It’s really an ideological battle that’s being fought across the country right now,” Russo said in an interview while waiting to testify before the Ohio Senate Insurance, Commerce and Labor Committee.
There were 50 witnesses scheduled, and Chairman Kevin Bacon said the committee would hear them without a break.
“This is a true test of democracy,” Bacon said.
Biggest Crowd
The Statehouse spokesman, Gregg Dodd, estimated the crowd at about 3,800 and said it was the largest gathering inside the statehouse since it was renovated in 1996.
The crowd thinned as the day wore on, but protesters continued to react vocally to comments from the committee room.
Mixing with them were members of Tea Party groups who staged their own rally in support of the legislation.
Mike Wilson, who founded the Cincinnati Tea Party, said the bill isn’t an effort to break unions but to restore balance between governments and their workers, who he said are overpaid.
“This bill is not on attack on public employees; it is not an attack on the middle class,” Wilson, 34, a technology consultant, said at the rally. “This bill is about math.”
Joe Rugola, the former president of the Ohio AFL-CIO who also is executive director of the Ohio Association of Public School Employees, said he represents bus drivers and janitors who earn about $24,000 a year.
“I’m still looking for this privileged class of workers,” Rugola said in an interview while waiting to testify. “This is just part of a national attack on working people.”
To contact the reporter on this story: Mark Niquette in Columbus, Ohio at mniquette@bloomberg.net
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The ridiculously inflated wage and benefit contracts of the government employees are a major contributor to the budget deficits of those states. The politicians themselves are to blame for approving those contracts to begin with, but it's time to bring these folks back to the reality that non-government workers deal with.
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I'm middle class, non union working in a STRONG union company (transportation). Trust me, if these guys are made to pay their way like I'm made to pay my way, I wouldnt be a bit upset. They're upset that they may have to join the rest of the workers and pay partial benefits. Deal with it, I do. Stir that crap pot Mac. 
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Not to be outdone, Tea Party darling, GOP Rep Tom Price from "Georgia", introduced anti union legislation in the House of Reps on Wednesday, to defund the National Labor Relations Board.
Obviously the GOP/Tea Party are pushing the limits of their power as they push their anti-union agenda..from Wash DC to norhern states. But a funny thing is happening...the sleeping giant, middle class American workers are waking up and speaking out.
It did not take long for the message from the middle class American workers to get to Washington DC...read on..
NLRB Amendment Beaten By GOP, Dem Coalition
02/17/11
WASHINGTON - Sixty House Republicans joined with every Democrat to beat back an anti-union amendment on Thursday that would have defunded the National Labor Relations Board, a New Deal-era independent agency that arbitrates labor disputes. The sixty defections come as the Midwest GOP governors in Wisconsin and Ohio are launching direct assaults on public employee unions.
Nine high-ranking Republican members of the Education and the Workforce Committee broke with their party to support the agency, including the chairman, Rep. John Kline (R-Minn.). GOP hostility toward organized labor is not a new phenomenon, but the hostility has intensified since Republicans took control of the House; the party went so far as to rename what had been called the Education and Labor Committee, replacing "labor" with "the workforce."
The amendment had been introduced by Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.) and was beaten back by a 250 to 176 tally.
House Republicans are piling up losses in a chamber where the majority party typically rules with an iron fist. A bipartisan coalition thwarted an effort to pass an extension of the Patriot Act and eliminated money for a weapons project that House Speaker John Boehner strongly backed.
The losses would have been avoidable had Boehner chosen to lock the House floor down and ram through the spending package without allowing amendments. But Boehner, say people close to him, is committed to keeping the floor open and allowing for a free-flowing debate, even if it costs him here and there.
In the end, he might get an open floor and win the legislative victories he wants: the House eventually passed an extension of the Patriot Act and the Senate (or Congressional dysfunction) could save the duplicate fighter-jet engine he backs. And the NLRB certainly hasn't heard the last of the GOP.
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Quote:
Wisconsin Walkouts
In Wisconsin, Republican Governor Scott Walker championed a bill that would make public workers bargain for wages alone and require them to pay 5.6 percent of their pension costs; they pay nothing now. They would have to foot 12 percent of their health- care premiums, up from 6 percent. Police and firefighters wouldn’t be covered by the measure, which Republican legislative leaders had hoped to pass by the weekend.
Oh pity...They would have to use their inflated wages to help pay for their own benefits like all the rest of the non-union workers. Hardly any sympathy there.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I wonder how many voters understood the agenda of the GOP/Tea Party politicians they elected in Nov?
This is what you voted for...a national, organized GOP/Tea Party movement, attacking middle class families in northern states who happen to be union members.
I understood it perfectly mac... the thing YOU don't understand is that this country and most of the states are so deep in red ink that they are about to go under.. serious cuts have to be made...
maybe the northern states can just keep jacking up taxes as a means of supporting their heavy entitlement program spending.... after all, that is working really well when it comes to attracting businesses and people to live in these states right?
You think its an accident that the 5 fastest growing cities are Raleigh, NC, Austin, TX, Salt Lake City, UT, San Antonio, TX, and Oklahoma City, OK? Who knows how far down the list you would have to go to find a city in Ohio or PA or Wisconsin... and if you go back to the 90s the fastest growing cities were all in California, Texas, and Florida.... You think it's an accident that the northeast and the upper midwest are totally NOT represented? You think it's all because of weather? No, because you don't think.
You are, quite simply, advocating a continuation of the policies that are destroying the area of the country that you love. The area you are talking about has been on a steady decline for 20-30 years and your best idea to save it is to continue those policies... to continue to allow unions to negotiate deals that are not sustainable by a dwindling tax base because you can't keep raising taxes fast enough to keep up...
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Take a drive through the Dayton area and see what unions did for their "members".
Watch the union contractors tear down the abandoned GM facilities...notice how green the "Truck & Bus" plant is while sitting idle employing no one.
Remember that it is the middle class that is PAYING FOR the wages and benefits of those union workers.
Nearly everyone is taking a hit...maybe the union can reduce their dues?
Times are tough...blaming a movement to get spending under control is simply a distraction from the fact that spending is - and has been for some time now - out of control.
There simply isn't enough money to support the huge load of government spending...and Obamacare has only just begun.
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Green Bay Packers Sound Off Against Gov. Scott 'Hosni' Walker
Thu Feb 17th 2011, 02:52 PM
It's more than likely that Walker didn't expect the Green Bay Packers to take a stand against his draconian attacks on workers rights, but after winning the Super Bowl it looks like the team is ready for another fight, this time against a Governor who is acting more like a dictator. Packers players issued a statement in support of the workers:
Present, former Packers say they back AFL-CIO
The statements reads: "We know that it is teamwork on and off the field that makes the Packers and Wisconsin great. As a publicly owned team we wouldn't have been able to win the Super Bowl without the support of our fans.
"It is the same dedication of our public workers every day that makes Wisconsin run. They are the teachers, nurses and child care workers who take care of us and our families. But now in an unprecedented political attack Governor Walker is trying to take away their right to have a voice and bargain at work.
"The right to negotiate wages and benefits is a fundamental underpinning of our middle class. When workers join together it serves as a check on corporate power and helps ALL workers by raising community standards. Wisconsin's long standing tradition of allowing public sector workers to have a voice on the job has worked for the state since the 1930s. It has created greater consistency in the relationship between labor and management and a shared approach to public work.
"These public workers are Wisconsin's champions every single day and we urge the Governor and the State Legislature to not take away their rights."
'Hosni' Walker was all over the Packers after they won the Super Bowl but I wonder how he feels about them now?
The Players Union also issued their own statement:
Green Bay Packers Sound Off Against Gov. Scott 'Hosni' Walker
“The NFL Players Association will always support efforts protecting a worker’s right to join a union and collectively bargain. Today, the NFLPA stands in solidarity with its organized labor brothers and sisters in Wisconsin.”
The support of the Packers players hasn’t been lost on those marching in the streets. Aisha Robertson, a public school teacher from Madison, told me, “It’s great to see Packers join the fight against Walker. Their statement of support shows they stand with us. It gives us inspiration and courage to go and fight peacefully for our most basic rights.”
Walker no doubt envisioned conflict when he rolled out his plan to roll over the workers of Wisconsin. But I don’t think he foresaw having to go toe-to-toe with the Green Bay Packers. As we learned in Egypt, envisioning unforeseen consequences is never an autocrat’s strong suit. As we’re learning in Wisconsin, fighting austerity is not an Egyptian issue or a Middle Eastern issue—it’s a political reality of the twenty-first-century world. And as Scott Walker is learning, messing with cheeseheads can be hazardous to your political health.
I think I just became a Packer's Fan!!
And Walker is not making any friends among the National Guard either:
Wisconsin Governor Threatens To Replace Workers With National Guard
Badger is a veteran of the armed forces. He is astounded that the governor has suggested the Guard might be called in.
"I volunteered to defend the rights of citizens in this country," Badger said. It's really offensive -- not the National Guard soldiers -- just that the governor could find the time and resources to put the National Guard on alert but not to sit down with any of the unions."
In a press release put out by VoteVets.org, an outreach group devoted to veterans issues, a veteran and former National Guard member shared his unhappiness with the Governor's proposed solution to a union strike.
"Maybe the new governor doesn't understand yet - but the National Guard is not his own personal intimidation force to be mobilized to quash political dissent," said Robin Eckstein, a former Wisconsin National Guard member, Iraq War Veteran from Appleton, WI, and member of VoteVets.org. "The Guard is to be used in case of true emergencies and disasters, to help the people of Wisconsin, not to bully political opponents."
Looks like 'Hosni' Walker may have bitten off more than he could chew! As one protest sign said yesterday: 'Who Died and Made Him God'?
Go Packers!
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Quote:
Wisconsin Walkouts
In Wisconsin, Republican Governor Scott Walker championed a bill that would make public workers bargain for wages alone and require them to pay 5.6 percent of their pension costs; they pay nothing now. They would have to foot 12 percent of their health- care premiums, up from 6 percent. Police and firefighters wouldn’t be covered by the measure, which Republican legislative leaders had hoped to pass by the weekend.
Oh pity...They would have to use their inflated wages to help pay for their own benefits like all the rest of the non-union workers. Hardly any sympathy there.
Not to mention the fact that the Cowardly Democrat member sof the Wisconsin State Senate used a tried and true Democrat method and ran away, literally, to another state, rather than work on a solution to their problems.
I hear that they are going to replace the Lion with a Cowardly Democrat in the next remake of "The Wizard of Oz".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Oh? You mean they walked off the job they were elected to do?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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....and getting paid by the taxpayers to do?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Oh pity...They would have to use their inflated wages to help pay for their own benefits like all the rest of the non-union workers. Hardly any sympathy there.
I believe this is the only country in the world that has managed to manipulate their working population to despise and villainize middle class workers who earn a decent wage and pit those who make less against those who make more.
Who is behind this ploy?...the wealthiest Americans and the political party that represents them..the Tea Party/GOP...read on..
The Republican Strategy
February 18, 2011
The Republican strategy is to split the vast middle and working class – pitting unionized workers against non-unionized, public-sector workers against non-public, older workers within sight of Medicare and Social Security against younger workers who don’t believe these programs will be there for them, and the poor against the working middle class.
By splitting working America along these lines, Republicans hope to deflect attention from the big story. That’s the increasing share of total income and wealth going to the richest 1 percent while the jobs and wages of everyone else languish.
Republicans would rather no one notice their campaign to generate further tax cuts for the rich – making the Bush tax cuts permanent, further reducing the estate tax, and allowing the wealthy to shift ever more of their income into capital gains taxed at 15 percent.
The strategy has three parts.
The battle over the federal budget.
The first is being played out in the budget battle in Washington. As they raise the alarm over deficit spending and simultaneously squeeze popular middle-class programs, Republicans want the majority of the American public to view it all as a giant zero-sum game among average Americans that some will have to lose.
The President has already fallen into the trap by calling for budget cuts in programs the poor and working class depend on – assistance with home heating, community services, college loans, and the like.
In the coming showdown over Medicare and Social Security, House budget chair Paul Ryan will push a voucher system for Medicare and a partly-privatized plan for Social Security – both designed to attract younger middle-class voters.
The assault on public employees
The second part of the Republican strategy is being played out on the state level where public employees are being blamed for state budget crises brought on by plummeting revenues. Republicans view this as an opportunity to gut public employee unions, starting with teachers.
Wisconsin’s Republican governor Scott Walker and his GOP legislature are seeking to end almost all union rights for teachers. Ohio’s Republican governor John Kasich is pushing a similar plan in Ohio through a Republican-dominated legislature. New Jersey’s Republican governor Chris Christie is attempting the same, telling a conservative conference Wednesday, “I’m attacking the leadership of the union because they’re greedy, and they’re selfish and they’re self-interested.”
As I’ve noted, this demonizing of public employees is premised on false data. Public employees don’t earn more than private-sector workers when you take account of their education. To the contrary, over the last fifteen years the pay of public-sector workers, including teachers, has dropped relative to private-sector employees with the same level of education – even if you include health and retirement benefits. Moreover, most public employees don’t have generous pensions. After a career with annual pay averaging less than $45,000, the typical newly-retired public employee receives a pension of $19,000 a year.
Bargaining rights for public employees haven’t caused state deficits to explode. Some states that deny their employees bargaining rights, such as Nevada, North Carolina, and Arizona, are running big deficits of over 30 percent of spending. Many states that give employees bargaining rights — Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Montana — have small deficits of less than 10 percent.
Republicans would rather go after teachers and other public employees than have us look at the pay of Wall Street traders, private-equity managers, and heads of hedge funds – many of whom wouldn’t have their jobs today were it not for the giant taxpayer-supported bailout.
Last year, America’s top thirteen hedge-fund managers earned an average of $1 billion each. One of them took home $5 billion. Much of their income is taxed as capital gains – at 15 percent – due to a tax loophole that Republican members of Congress have steadfastly guarded.
If the earnings of those thirteen hedge-fund managers were taxed as ordinary income, the revenues generated would pay the salaries and benefits of over 5 million teachers. Who is more valuable to our society – thirteen hedge-fund managers or 5 million teachers? Let’s make the question even simpler. Who is more valuable: One hedge fund manager or one teacher?
The Distortion of the Constitution
The third part of the Republican strategy is being played out in the Supreme Court. It has politicized the Court more than at any time in recent memory.
Last year a majority of the justices determined that corporations have a right under the First Amendment to provide unlimited amounts of money to political candidates. Citizens United vs. the Federal Election Commission is among the most patently political and legally grotesque decisions of our highest court – ranking right up there with Bush vs. Gore and Dred Scott.
Among those who voted in the affirmative were Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia. Both have become active strategists in the Republican party.
A month ago, for example, Antonin Scalia met in a closed-door session with Michele Bachman’s Tea Party caucus – something no justice concerned about maintaining the appearance of impartiality would ever have done.
Both Thomas and Scalia have participated in political retreats organized and hosted by multi-billionaire financier Charles Koch, a major contributor to the Tea Party and other conservative organizations, and a crusader for ending all limits on money in politics. (Not incidentally, Thomas’s wife is the founder of Liberty Central, a Tea Party organization that has been receiving unlimited corporate contributions due to the Citizens United decision. On his obligatory financial disclosure filings, Thomas has repeatedly failed to list her sources of income over the last twenty years, nor even to include his own four-day retreats courtesy of Charles Koch.)
Some time this year or next, the Supreme Court will be asked to consider whether the nation’s new healthcare law is constitutional. Watch your wallets.
The strategy as a whole
These three aspects of the Republican strategy – a federal budget battle to shrink government, focused on programs the vast middle class depends on; state efforts to undermine public employees, whom the middle class depends on; and a Supreme Court dedicated to bending the Constitution to enlarge and entrench the political power of the wealthy – fit perfectly together.
They pit average working Americans against one another, distract attention from the almost unprecedented concentration of wealth and power at the top, and make government the enemy.
What is the Democratic strategy to counter this and reclaim America for the rest of us?
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In Wisconsin, Republican Governor Scott Walker championed a bill that would make public workers bargain for wages alone and require them to pay 5.6 percent of their pension costs; they pay nothing now. They would have to foot 12 percent of their health- care premiums, up from 6 percent.
Join the rest of the world ... bout time.
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W00H00! Kill those leechy unions!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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So far, in true mac fashion, you've posted 3 articles... from huffpo, the democratic underground and robert reich. Now, if you remain true to form, you'll accuse me of attacking the sources while ducking the issue, which would be a lie...as I and others have addressed those issues in our posts in this thread.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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So what is your answer mac? I would rather the state try to get its budget under control now than wait until it's in the position California is in, wouldn't you?
Times have changed. The bill in Ohio is about having public employees pay about 2% more into the retirement account, pay a bit more of their health insurance, and work about 2 years longer before they can get full retirement.
Sounds like about every private sector job, doesn't it?
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I believe this is the only country in the world that has managed to manipulate their working population to despise and villainize middle class workers who earn a decent wage and pit those who make less against those who make more.
When that working wage comes from the taxpayers, they have a right to complain about inflated wages and benefits. Especially when the state is running in the red.
I guess they could just shut down all the social programs instead, so that the state unionized workers won't have to survive under the same conditions the rest of the state does. I bet that would go ever real well.
Let's face it. No one likes cuts. Especially when it hits you in your wallet. But at this point everyone has to take a hit to straighten this thing out, and typically you start were things are most expendable.
I took a 20% pay cut 2 years ago when business dropped. Sure it hurt, but I modified a lot of my expenses and re-configured my budget, changed my services (cable, phone, etc) to more cost effective plans. And there are plenty of hard working people that have all done the same, some willingly, some not so.
Why should government employees be any different?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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IMO, this bill has nothing to do with cost savings. This bill has everything to do with attacking unions. I know most of you support that idea, and, hey, that's your opinion, which is fine. I'll say that I have a tough time believing that the state employees are what's driving this state down. Does anyone here know exactly how much state employees make? How much are their "guaranteed" wage increases? How "golden" are their retirement plans? Can anyone give me a number? And, I'll say this, too. I think when most people think of unions, they think of the UAW, which, even being a union supporter, I think the UAW is a perfect example of what happens when any organization (be it union, business, whatever) gets too complacent and thinks "well, things have always been this way, so we can't change. But, I have a great bit of dealing with labor unions that are nothing like the UAW. Think about the construction trades. These are employers whose employees belong to unions. They bid on jobs just like non-union people. Sometimes they win the bids, sometimes they lose the bids. But I am 100% sure these union employees don't get ridiculous wages. I'm 100% sure they don't get ridiculous pensions. Heck, most of these unions have defined contribution plans, just like non-union companies do. So, when people say that all unions are bad, I think that's kind of shortsighted. Not all unions are like the UAW. And, heck, what percentage of business IS unionized? 11.9%. So you're telling me that 11.9% of the workforce is what's dragging this country down? As for the public employees, I just can't imagine that they're the problem with this state. Should they take on more of their health insurance? Maybe. But have they done that already? Honestly, I don't know. I know a lot of plans are going more to high deductible/high co-pay type plans. In the end, none of you guys are going to change your position, I realize that. Unions are the devil, and if we get rid of all of them, all people will lead wonderful lives and all business will thrive. And, none of you are going to change my position that unions, while maybe needing some tweaking, don't do nearly as much harm as you claim. But, that's fine. We can each have our opinions. Oh, BTW, here is a link to some public employee collective bargaining agreements. link
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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And the democratic strategy is to pit the poor against the rich, with the rich being defined as anybody who has more money than you do... then to pit black against white and hispanic against white and everybody else against white (then define white not as Harry Reid white but as Rush Limbaugh white)... then define "Republican" as money hoarding elitest when it suits you but then to also define them as backwoods Bible thumping rednecks when it suits you to define them that way.
the democrats have no plan mac, they have no plan that is going to help anybody.... Oh wait, it will help them stay in office as they have set themselves up as the benevolent provider of benefits that the people need...
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Hey mac, Justin Bieber recently spoke out about how awful our healthcare is and why Canada is the panacea of healthcare... little ... can go back there and make his fortune for all I care.. you should post that too because the importance I give it ranks up there with what I think about the Packers opinion on unionization.. since they are in a union pizzing contest themselves...
yebat' Putin
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I'm against these bills. I think they should just layoff whatever percentage of workers they need to the get the costs to the same level. I bet those union members would much rather that happen.
#gmstrong
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Or, why not just re-open the bargaining agreement negotiations?
"We're so in the red, we need concessions 1, 2, and 3 from the union. We need more money toward healthcare and a wage freeze for x number of years."
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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The four groups most against this bill: firefighters, policemen, nurses and teachers.
I know many on here hate unions, and that's fine but if anyone actually reads the bill, they'll be able to find that this bill isn't about reducing the budget or cutting spending, it's about strictly attacking unions.
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Legend
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Quote:
Or, why not just re-open the bargaining agreement negotiations?
"We're so in the red, we need concessions 1, 2, and 3 from the union. We need more money toward healthcare and a wage freeze for x number of years."
I wonder if that hasn't already happened. I know that in the past some unions were not open to the idea of give backs. Give backs go against what they have worked for. I can't say how many senior union members would be for or against give backs if losing their jobs isn't an issue.
As to your question...That is what should have been done first.
#gmstrong
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Well seeing where Unions have gotten us......I am not all that sure that attacking them is a bad thing.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I believe firefighters and police are exempted in Wisconsin. What is your take on what Strickland passed in regards to cutting teachers benefits that will go into effect in 2014?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
The four groups most against this bill: firefighters, policemen, nurses and teachers.
I know many on here hate unions, and that's fine but if anyone actually reads the bill, they'll be able to find that this bill isn't about reducing the budget or cutting spending, it's about strictly attacking unions.
those are the 4 most vocal groups against this bill because those are the groups that get the most public support by default.
getting cuts is never fun. my dad works for a city (previous union president) and will definitely be hurt by this measure (hard to plan your personal budget and then have cuts happen later).
however, something does need to be done. whether it be jobs cut, benefits reduced, or something similar. most places have already instituted some plans. for instance there are cities where you have to take a certain number of 'unpaid' days a year right now. that effectively cuts your salary down by those days.
it's unfortunate, it's painful, but, sadly, right now it is necessary.
#gmstrong
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This is my big problem with unions... Quote:
[khaki] and replace salary schedules with merit pay.[/khaki]
You should be paid what you are worth based on your results. I get that measuring results in a public school is tough.. is passing kids a good measure? No, not if they can't meet the requirements.. I get it. Good administrators recognize good teachers when they see them but we can't have an subjective scale other wise everybody will cry about being discriminated against... (Remember the teacher that posted on her blog about students that whine? Wonder where they learned it?)... In the real world you don't get a raise every year just because you were here, you get a raise if you earned it... I don't know why unions have such a problem with that.
I've read enough stories of teachers mistreating kids and getting caught red handed and then they get suspended with pay for 2 years while it gets worked out because they aren't allowed to be fired... then they just get a job in a different school and a really harsh "this better not happen again"... bull crap.
yebat' Putin
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You should be paid what you are worth based on your results.
But this is waaaaaaay tougher than it sounds. Different job roles, different ways of contributing... if someone is 10x more valuable to the company in their job role do they get 10x the pay? No. Does that scenario happen all the time? Yeah, definitely.
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Quote:
Quote:
You should be paid what you are worth based on your results.
But this is waaaaaaay tougher than it sounds. Different job roles, different ways of contributing... if someone is 10x more valuable to the company in their job role do they get 10x the pay? No. Does that scenario happen all the time? Yeah, definitely.
Does it always work out perfectly fair? No, it does not. Is it fair that Joe makes 10% more than Bob just because he has been on the job 2 years longer with no regard to how well each actually does the job? No. At least in the private sector the more hardworking folks tend to rise to the top in pay and position... it is not 100% fair but in general it is far more fair and creates a far more productive atmosphere than does the union method of longevity pay, scaled bonuses, etc where time, and not effort and results, is more the determining factor of your pay level..
yebat' Putin
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I wish I could say that was the case at my private-sector job, but it's not. 
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I wish I could say that was the case at my private-sector job, but it's not.
Then change jobs. You may have to wait until the economy gets going again, you may have to relocate, you may have to take a step backwards, but you are free to change jobs. I said, and I believe, that in the long run, those who are more talented and hardworking WILL rise to the top in the private sector... that doesn't mean it will be a perfect trip.
yebat' Putin
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1st String
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Groza76
Go Browns, WIN or lose, forever!
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Mac, and all you left leaning posters . . .
I have worked in a union (steelworkers) for over 12 years. I am currently employed as a supervisor at another facility that is unionized as well (steelworkers) for the last 5 years.
All in all, my experience has been that the union protects the lazy man. The unions of today are not the same as the unions that my father began his career in back in the sixties. And truthfully as well, this is not my daddy's economy either.
In Ohio, as in other northern states, unions have watched their numbers dwindle (think union dues and political power as a result) as companies closed down or packed up and headed for Mexico. So every job and union member left in the private sector is highly coveted. Unions that traditionally protected factory workers are expanding to protect nurses aides. It's a fight over the economics of the employee.
I am not so naive to think that companies always operate with the best interests of their employees in mind, in fact, as a supervisor, I am treated worse in many cases than the union folks. (I can't tell you how bad it irritates me when on weekends I am supervising people making more than me . . . but it is what it is.)
I preface my comment with the above so you understand that I absolutely support the governors because I think unions have lost their focus. It is a good thing that workers have some leverage that a union provides, but governments are not like private companies whereby they can go bankrupt and restructure. Governments are not like private companies that can automatically raise prices whether people like it or not. A government can't raise it's price without consent of the governed and the governed don't want to pay more taxes.
Unions have to change their thinking to coincide with the change in the economy of today. Here is a good example: I have a worker that is an outstanding performer, does his job well, makes every effort to act in the best interests of the company to make it profitable but because he has only been there 2 years he makes 10 bucks. Someone, in the same job, performing the same function but not nearly as well makes 15 because he has been there longer. IS that fair?
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Quote:
The four groups most against this bill: firefighters, policemen, nurses and teachers.
I know many on here hate unions, and that's fine but if anyone actually reads the bill, they'll be able to find that this bill isn't about reducing the budget or cutting spending, it's about strictly attacking unions.
Do you have a link to the actual bill? Thanks - apparently my "search" skill suck, cause I can't find it.
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It is nearly impossible to pay teachers based on performance of the kids. Not all kids are equal as well as classrooms. Our kids are both in honors classes. How can you rate their teachers compared to remedial classes?
Even if you could come up with some criteria to even it out when it comes to something like test score you still have a big problem. When you look at the kids at the bottom end of students you have kids who aren't willing to try and parents who don't seem to care. You also have kids that are extreme discipline problems who underacheive because of not being in the classroom.
There is nothing I hate more than to see teachers strike. You see some bad things picket lines. I do not want some unruly picketer teaching my kid.
I would prefer they have to go through some sort of binding arbitration.
#gmstrong
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I know many on here hate unions, and that's fine but if anyone actually reads the bill, they'll be able to find that this bill isn't about reducing the budget or cutting spending, it's about strictly attacking unions.
You say it like it's a bad thing.
At any rate, they can't even think about reducing the budget or cutting spending until they get the unions in a position where they can actually start to make cuts or reduce benefits.
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I haven't read the bill and I'm not stating an opinion on the subject, but I think this is the bill in question.
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I haven't read the bill and I'm not stating an opinion on the subject, but I think this is the bill in question.
Thanks - I read page 1 and agree with it. No automatic wages more than the CPI. (doesn't mean there can't be - it just means they aren't automatic regardless of the economic situation)
However, that was Wisconsin's bill. Anyone have a link to Ohio SB 5, or HB 5?
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I wonder how many voters understood the agenda of the GOP/Tea Party politicians they elected in Nov?
I bet all of them did. It's time to get these 50 ships in shape bud. It's time for the fed. gov't. to realize that what it's doing is killing this country.
I wonder how many that DIDN'T vote for them understand that we are a nation of 50 states that are all sinking, and we are hoping our sunk federal gov't. will "print" money to bail us out?
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum GOP/Tea Party Controlled Ohio and
Wisc govs attack Unions
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