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Legend
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From wikipedia: Daily Kos (pronounced /;ko;s/) is a American political blog that publishes news and opinions from a progressive point of view. It functions as a discussion forum and group blog for a variety of netroots activists, whose efforts are primarily directed toward influencing and strengthening the Democratic Party.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Legend
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Quote:
The thing is that imo the media portrays teachers as all making big money,
I don't think I've ever seen anything in the media portraying teachers as making "big money"... I have seem some pieces that make the point, when you break it down considering their breaks, their vacation, their holidays, their benefits, etc that on a relative basis, they do fairly well compared to other jobs... but I've never once seen a piece that said "Hey, if you want to get rich go be a teacher." 
I have mixed feelings on it because I do see how important the job is... but I have mixed feelings on that too because while their job is important, it wouldn't be AS important if more parents did THEIR job.. I also see what they have to put up with.. meddling school boards and government agencies setting bizarre and often stupid standards that they have to teach to while tying their hands behind their backs and dictating the ways in which they have to teach it.... disciplinary rules that they must enforce which remove the ability for them to use any of the common sense God gave them... and then there are the parents.. the parents running the spectrum from those that are there everyday complaining about why little Jimmy had to do this and why did little Jimmy get a C on this and why can't little Jimmy sit beside his friend and little Johnny said something mean to Jimmy and you need to do something about it... all the way down the parents that drop their kids off on day 1 and you never hear from them again even though their kids are struggling and aren't doing well at all...
Yes, I feel for teachers because it is not an easy job and it has to be one you love... but at the same time, they do ok financially all things considered...
So.... there you go.
yebat' Putin
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All Pro
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Quote:
That's starting pay.
Biochemist: ~$35,000
Biologist: $37000
Geologist: $36,000
Elementary School Teacher: $32,500
Licensed Practical Nurse: $32,000
As a biochemist, I feel comfortable in saying that the last two a. have immensely more pressure than my job; and b. are much more important to the country as a whole.
We are arguing on this forum about how "cushy" being a teacher is. I have two elementary teachers in the family, and even though they get the summer off, I would be interested in seeing the hourly pay breakdown. Teachers may be at school from 7 - 4, but I know they have to lesson plan, grade papers, and help with extracurriculars on nights and weekends. They also have to field phone calls from parents, have meetings with parents, provide extra help to kids outside of school hours, etc. Not everyone is capable of handling all of this.
And top that off with the fact that education is one of the most important things for our economy long term. Education is the sole means to upward mobility, (other than inheriting a very large sum or winning the lottery). At some point we're going to have to shift to a more high tech economy, and we are going to need a highly skilled workforce to do so. If you want good teachers, you have to provide competitive salaries and/or benefits. This part is no different than the private sector. If you want a good CEO or good engineers, you are going to have to shell out for it.
Some of the benefits are a little too much given current budget situations. In Wisconsin, the unions agreed to concessions. It should be that simple. The governor is continuing to press the issue however.
The side of collective bargaining that people are missing here is that when a union goes to a health insurance company with 100,000 customers at once, they get a "bulk" discount on premiums. Just like how Wal Mart buys in bulk, and can thus charge lower prices. Same goes for pension plans. Eliminate the collective, and you are not only hurting people's ability to have some leverage in wage negotiations, you are going to raise their premiums.
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Nicely put. My mom taught for 30 years (Toledo Public Schools) and it isn't this cushy job that a lot of people think. Her retirement benefits are very, very nice (85% pay) but they did just reduce that which is why she retired before that went into affect.
Another point about pay I'd like to add is that Ohio requires an Masters degree for teachers now (must get within 5 years after starting I believe). Getting a Masters in just about anything else will certainly be more worth while financially than being a teacher - you might start in the private sector at what a teacher caps out at in a lifetime.
#gmstrong
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Dawg Talker
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Very good points TJS7. You definitely made me think about some more stuff and I completely forgot things like chaperones, school dances, pep rallies, etc. that teachers always seem to be a part of.
However, to be fair, don't forget that many schools still have study halls, teachers may pop in a movie once every couple weeks, they may hand out a test that they have been using for years.
Obviously I'm not saying that all teachers do this, but there are some in the teaching field that are lazy (it happens in every field). I had many teachers back in the day where if I needed help with my homework, I would just borrow my older sister's who was years ahead of me. Same packets of paper - word for word.
If you add that to maybe 5-10 minutes between classes at either 4 to 8 periods a day (whether or not your school has "block" scheduling) then that's another 45 minutes to maybe an hour that they spend just waiting for classes to start.
I'm sorry if it looks like I'm nickel and diming their day apart because the same could be said about many professions. But, for all the extra hours they do put in, I also know that many have found ways of cutting down the work that they actually do during the class.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Quote:
We are arguing on this forum about how "cushy" being a teacher is. I have two elementary teachers in the family, and even though they get the summer off, I would be interested in seeing the hourly pay breakdown. Teachers may be at school from 7 - 4, but I know they have to lesson plan, grade papers, and help with extracurriculars on nights and weekends. They also have to field phone calls from parents, have meetings with parents, provide extra help to kids outside of school hours, etc. Not everyone is capable of handling all of this.
And top that off with the fact that education is one of the most important things for our economy long term. Education is the sole means to upward mobility, (other than inheriting a very large sum or winning the lottery). At some point we're going to have to shift to a more high tech economy, and we are going to need a highly skilled workforce to do so. If you want good teachers, you have to provide competitive salaries and/or benefits. This part is no different than the private sector. If you want a good CEO or good engineers, you are going to have to shell out for it.
Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The average salary for teachers is very deceiving. The scale is base on education and years experience. All the way over and all the way up is the the highest you can go. They are also required to take courses from time to time through out their careers. I think you really need to look at starting salaries instead. I started out at Northrop Grumman without my B.S. and made 10k more 10 years ago then what they do now.
Benefits for teachers are great.... no argument there. My father was a teacher and he coached. He also took a part-time job most summers to help make ends meet with a wife and two kids. Most teachers need secondary incomes. I think it would be fair to say that raise starting salaries but lower the % increases over the years to compensate... would be a good place to start.
We shouldn't be looking at our educational system as a place to make cutbacks. We need to improve it not hinder it.
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Legend
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Quote:
We are arguing on this forum about how "cushy" being a teacher is. I have two elementary teachers in the family, and even though they get the summer off, I would be interested in seeing the hourly pay breakdown. Teachers may be at school from 7 - 4, but I know they have to lesson plan, grade papers, and help with extracurriculars on nights and weekends. They also have to field phone calls from parents, have meetings with parents, provide extra help to kids outside of school hours, etc. Not everyone is capable of handling all of this.
Some may be... I recognize the challenges that teachers face... I counted the Wake County Public School calendar, counting days where students are in and days designated as teacher workdays... teachers are required to be at work 193 days in the 2010-11 school year.. I'm not sure exactly how many sick days and personal days they get but lets assume for the sake of argument that they take 10 days off during the course of the year.. that's 183 days at work... compared to the traditional work year, which is 260 calendar days per year, minus 6 or 7 holidays, we'll say 14 vacation days and 5 sick days... the average person in the work world probably works 235 days +/- during the calendar year.... that's a full 52 days more at work for the average working professional than teachers work.
Now I know that teachers are at school 8-9 hours and then have these other commitments... so does everybody else. I will be in Charlotte for a couple days next week, then Charleston, SC the week after, then Fairfax, VA the week after that. I will miss my daughters soccer game, I will be away from my family. I work Saturdays and Sundays sometimes, I take work home with me, I work in my hotel in the evening when I'm on the road, my timesheet usually has between 48-55 hours per week on it but there is almost always more than that that I could put on it if I wanted to.
One big thing that I live with... during the last few years, people in my industry have been laying people off right and left.. my industry has the highest unemployement rate of all industries.. I have been blessed because I went to work for a stable company with a solid business plan that has actually grown during this economy.. I won't say I've been lucky because I sought this company out and I make a little less here than I could some other place but this company takes care of its people.. but many in my industry are either out of work or greatly underemployed right now...
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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The problem is teachers hold a professional position yet want to be treated as hourly workers.
8-9 hours at the school....maybe more checking papers???
So friggen what??
I am sure many around here put in 50-60 hours or more a week....I know I did.
Teachers don't have bad salaries, have loads of off time, and a pretty nice retirement.
If they want better paying teaching positions, find a job in a private school. They make considerably more in most cases.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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1st String
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i am just confused why this discussion is about how much teachers make.
I despise unions and would not want to join one. However I understand that they do have a right to exist and a place in this world. They have become a corrupt cottage industry, jsut liek the corpirations and governments they fight.
I think the union needs to make consensions. I believe that they need to be at the bargening table. Not by writing a law with questionable constitutionality disallowing their right to exist.
It is the cowardly easy way of going about getting the cuts you need. And the democrats running away need to stand up do their jobs and Let the Courts decide if this law is constitutional.
The Proposed cuts need to be made, but nullifying peoples rights to make it easier is not right.
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-JC-
At my job we have been on a wage freeze for 3 years. The company disbanded the 401k match. We got rid/laid off some workers and we have all had more responsibilities added and had to work more hours. I get paid a salary so I get paid the same whether I work 10 hours or 8 hours.
On top of that I just saw the largest increase in Medical and Dental. They eliminated a huge portion of what I use to be able to claim on Flexible Medical Spending Accounts so in general I am:
-Paying more in medical/dental
-Taking home a lot less
-Less money is being put in my retirement
-Work Harder and longer.
Some may say "See if you had a union you could have bargained to not have all those cuts." Perhaps, but we made those cuts because the economy was bad. Our Sales were down. We had to take more orders at lower profit margins to be competitive and in the end we drove 3 competitors out of business (two of them were union shops) and we increased our market share. They are talking about reinstating the raises this year. Our company is better off now than we were 3 years ago because of the choices our upper management made.
It is time for Governments to take a hard look and some are. I understand that Teachers, Firemen, Police all do important jobs but their salaries are generated with Tax Dollars. Our State and Federal governments are in extreme debt. I personal am sick of the partisanship, the Dems have projects and programs that they don't want cut, the Repubs have projects and programs that they don't want cut and in the end if both sides get their way there is nothing left to be cut and we just repeat the perpetual cycle of increased debt that some day is going to be the end of this nation.
Now I think there should be some compromise but the government paid workers are going to need to take some cuts like many of us in the Private Sector do when the economy/market goes down.
I personally don't care for Unions but if someone else prefers them then I'm not about to tell someone else how to live their life.
![[Linked Image from mypsn.eu.playstation.com]](http://mypsn.eu.playstation.com/psn/profile/Letherface.png)
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Legend
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When discussing the wages the media around here mentions the top end of the pay scale.
Rank County Average - Rank County Average
1 Cuyahoga $62,575 - 45 Muskingum $48,545
2 Franklin $61,569 - 46 Brown $48,397
3 Hamilton $60,523 - 47 Carroll $48,387
4 Lake $58,976 - 48 Morrow $48,347
...5 Summit $56,302 - 49 Fulton $48,336
6 Greene $56,289 - 50 Ashland $48,315
7 Geauga $55,986 - 51 Marion $48,303
8 Medina $55,402 - 52 Knox $48,162
9 Montgomery $55,308 - 53 Guernsey $48,028
10 Ottawa $54,805 - 54 Holmes $47,923
11 Warren $54,219 - 55 Hancock $47,905
12 Clermont $53,952 - 56 Clinton $47,794
13 Lorain $53,833 - 57 Allen $47,552
14 Fairfield $53,666 - 58 Coshocton $47,544
15 Portage $53,642 - 59 Paulding $47,519
16 Lucas $53,597 - 60 Columbiana $47,298
17 Butler $53,552 - 61 Seneca $47,276
18 Erie $53,534 - 62 Madison $47,184
19 Union $53,500 - 63 Washington $47,139
20 Wood $53,472 - 64 Champaign $47,125
21 Clark $53,113 - 65 Huron $46,751
22 Delaware $52,926 - 66 Richland $46,615
23 Miami $52,161 - 67 Adams $46,560
24 Pickaway $51,968 - 68 Fayette $46,510
25 Stark $51,830 - 69 Scioto $46,489
26 Wayne $51,708 - 70 Athens $46,482
27 Auglaize $51,403 - 71 Putnam $46,177
28 Mahoning $51,090 - 72 Preble $46,022
29 Sandusky $51,089 - 73 Crawford $46,011
30 Licking $51,008 - 74 Wyandot $45,824
31 Ashtabula $50,986 - 75 Lawrence $45,774
32 Mercer $50,802 - 76 Tuscarawas $45,575
33 Trumbull $50,563 - 77 Perry $44,818
34 Darke $49,732 - 78 Hardin $44,557
34 Van Wert $49,732 - 79 Highland $44,492
36 Gallia $49,657 - 80 Morgan $44,395
37 Shelby $49,617 - 81 Belmont $44,198
38 Pike $49,589 - 82 Vinton $44,186
39 Logan $49,545 - 83 Noble $42,991
40 Defiance $49,536 - 84 Jackson $42,804
41 Henry $49,243 - 85 Harrison $41,481
42 Hocking $49,064 - 86 Jefferson $41,293
43 Williams $49,026 - 87 Monroe $41,032
44 Ross $48,853 - 88 Meigs $39,337
Source: Ohio Department of Education, 2007-08 data
The 5 top counties averages are much higher. They also have many more teachers. What is not taken into account is the years experience and education of the teachers. I had checked into salaries in my county once. It had average years of experience between each districts teachers along with average salaries.
The reasons the averages are higher (they are) is because the most senior teaches really skew the averages. With the changes coming in 2014 to the teachers pensions you will find a mass exodus of teachers that are above the retirement ages or retirement years. When that happens the average pay will drop like a rock. If a district is very top heavy with experience they will see the most dramatic drop. It is not uncommon to find teachers in my county making over $60,000. It is also not uncommon for teachers to have 30 plus years experience in the same district.
People who complain about what teachers make leave out this info. When 2014 comes around what will they say when the average salaries drop significantly?
These figures were based on the 08-09 school year.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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I think the focus is more on teachers because that is what people think of 1st. In Ohio you can check wages of each state worker but it is much easier to find teacher breakdowns than anything else.
#gmstrong
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When Wisconsin's Governor Walker formulated his plan to go after public unions, he excluded the Firefighter's union, the Policeman's union and the Highway Patrolman's union.
Coincidently, there were only 3 public unions in Wisconsin that supported Walker's winning campaign last Nov...the Firefighter's union, the Policeman's union and the Highway Patrolman's union...hmmm...something smells like_____......
What is the common denominator? Oh yeah, all three are jobs that the members put their asses on the line every day. Do you really think these unions are going to give him a pass next election? if so you have a very low opinion of them. I guess you think they can be easily bought.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
You're questioning the veracity of a source that mac uses? How dare you! 
I did no such thing! mac has trouble identifying his sources for us, and I'm just helping him out.
Sorry. You didn't sense the sarcasm in my post? 
I take nothing that mac has to say on political or social issues with any seriousness. I agree with nothing in that realm with him.
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First I'll say I'm a correction officer here in Ohio, have been for close to 16 years. I've had a wage freeze for the last 6 years. Seen my medical % go up over 15%, roll call pay reduced to straight time, for the last 2 years I have given the state $68 out of each check for something called cost savings days. 401K, there is no company match, never has been. It took me 10 years before I could even get the weekends off, and it is on 2nd shift, great for a family.
In case some of you don't know corrections officers or prison guards supervise the killers, rapists, drug dealers, arsonists, robbers, kidnappers, basically all criminals the general public don't want on the street working with them, living by them. And do you know how much money I made last year, $42,000. Yeah thats right after 16 years. I put my life on the line every day even more so than police, firefighter, and the state police. How often do they have to deal with human waste being thrown on them? Do you know what a policeman says when they enter an institution, "you guys aren't armed in here"? Most of them say there is no way they would do this.
I feel correction officers don't make enough money. Not many people want to do what I do.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
I despise unions and would not want to join one. However I understand that they do have a right to exist and a place in this world. They have become a corrupt cottage industry, jsut liek the corpirations and governments they fight.
I think the union needs to make consensions. I believe that they need to be at the bargening table. Not by writing a law with questionable constitutionality disallowing their right to exist.
And how do you think it got to this point where people want to get rid of their right to exist? Because they always beg and get more money and benefits and yet when bad times roll around, it's hard to get them to back down and reduce some of what they got during good times.
But then again, I may be a little biased considering how much the unions were able to grab from California. and it's hard to layoff any of them as well because they basically run the state. Which is why there have been no layoffs of state workers since this economic downturn, even though it's needed. The solution to the problem seems to only be, lets raise taxes.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
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You're questioning the veracity of a source that mac uses? How dare you!
I did no such thing! mac has trouble identifying his sources for us, and I'm just helping him out.
Sorry. You didn't sense the sarcasm in my post?
I take nothing that mac has to say on political or social issues with any seriousness. I agree with nothing in that realm with him.
Yes, I saw that.....I thought no smiley would work better in my post. I don't see you as a macfan at all.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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We are arguing on this forum about how "cushy" being a teacher is. I have two elementary teachers in the family, and even though they get the summer off, I would be interested in seeing the hourly pay breakdown. Teachers may be at school from 7 - 4, but I know they have to lesson plan, grade papers, and help with extracurriculars on nights and weekends. They also have to field phone calls from parents, have meetings with parents, provide extra help to kids outside of school hours, etc. Not everyone is capable of handling all of this.
Some may be... I recognize the challenges that teachers face... I counted the Wake County Public School calendar, counting days where students are in and days designated as teacher workdays... teachers are required to be at work 193 days in the 2010-11 school year.. I'm not sure exactly how many sick days and personal days they get but lets assume for the sake of argument that they take 10 days off during the course of the year.. that's 183 days at work... compared to the traditional work year, which is 260 calendar days per year, minus 6 or 7 holidays, we'll say 14 vacation days and 5 sick days... the average person in the work world probably works 235 days +/- during the calendar year.... that's a full 52 days more at work for the average working professional than teachers work.
Now I know that teachers are at school 8-9 hours and then have these other commitments... so does everybody else. I will be in Charlotte for a couple days next week, then Charleston, SC the week after, then Fairfax, VA the week after that. I will miss my daughters soccer game, I will be away from my family. I work Saturdays and Sundays sometimes, I take work home with me, I work in my hotel in the evening when I'm on the road, my timesheet usually has between 48-55 hours per week on it but there is almost always more than that that I could put on it if I wanted to.
One big thing that I live with... during the last few years, people in my industry have been laying people off right and left.. my industry has the highest unemployement rate of all industries.. I have been blessed because I went to work for a stable company with a solid business plan that has actually grown during this economy.. I won't say I've been lucky because I sought this company out and I make a little less here than I could some other place but this company takes care of its people.. but many in my industry are either out of work or greatly underemployed right now...
My only two cents in this argument is that my partner is a teacher and she spends 5 am until about 8 pm doing school work, monday thru friday, and then makes lesson plans all day on sundays. she cant reuse lesson plans from the year before because in a year, so much changes. i have to sometimes help grade or else her saturdays would be consumed after friday tests. sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers. she has zero free time and her summers are spent getting continuing education credit. thats my only two cents. she works a lot harder than my measly 40 hours and leave work at work job and i make more than 30,000 a year.
i know you mentioned sick days and personal time off. she gets 2 sick days and 1 personal day. she has yet to use them in the 5 years she's been working there. taking a day off and coming back = more work. the days of having a sub just sit in a class and keep everyone in line is over. to take a day off, you need to plan an activity and make sure its grade-able so the kids feel responsibility to do it for a sub.
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This was posted on Facebook earlier today. It's an interesting take on the teacher subject. (Not necessarily my take, mind you...)
_________________________________
Are you sick of highly paid teachers?
by Meredith Menden on Friday, February 18, 2011 at 6:32pm
Are you sick of highly paid teachers?
Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit!
We can get that for less than minimum wage.
That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).
Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.
However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.
LET'S SEE....
That's $585 X 180= $105,300
per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).
What about those special
education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an
hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.
Wait a minute -- there's
something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary
(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days
= $277.77/per day/30
students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
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We are arguing on this forum about how "cushy" being a teacher is. I have two elementary teachers in the family, and even though they get the summer off, I would be interested in seeing the hourly pay breakdown. Teachers may be at school from 7 - 4, but I know they have to lesson plan, grade papers, and help with extracurriculars on nights and weekends. They also have to field phone calls from parents, have meetings with parents, provide extra help to kids outside of school hours, etc. Not everyone is capable of handling all of this.
Some may be... I recognize the challenges that teachers face... I counted the Wake County Public School calendar, counting days where students are in and days designated as teacher workdays... teachers are required to be at work 193 days in the 2010-11 school year.. I'm not sure exactly how many sick days and personal days they get but lets assume for the sake of argument that they take 10 days off during the course of the year.. that's 183 days at work... compared to the traditional work year, which is 260 calendar days per year, minus 6 or 7 holidays, we'll say 14 vacation days and 5 sick days... the average person in the work world probably works 235 days +/- during the calendar year.... that's a full 52 days more at work for the average working professional than teachers work.
Now I know that teachers are at school 8-9 hours and then have these other commitments... so does everybody else. I will be in Charlotte for a couple days next week, then Charleston, SC the week after, then Fairfax, VA the week after that. I will miss my daughters soccer game, I will be away from my family. I work Saturdays and Sundays sometimes, I take work home with me, I work in my hotel in the evening when I'm on the road, my timesheet usually has between 48-55 hours per week on it but there is almost always more than that that I could put on it if I wanted to.
One big thing that I live with... during the last few years, people in my industry have been laying people off right and left.. my industry has the highest unemployement rate of all industries.. I have been blessed because I went to work for a stable company with a solid business plan that has actually grown during this economy.. I won't say I've been lucky because I sought this company out and I make a little less here than I could some other place but this company takes care of its people.. but many in my industry are either out of work or greatly underemployed right now...
My only two cents in this argument is that my partner is a teacher and she spends 5 am until about 8 pm doing school work, monday thru friday, and then makes lesson plans all day on sundays. she cant reuse lesson plans from the year before because in a year, so much changes. i have to sometimes help grade or else her saturdays would be consumed after friday tests. sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers. she has zero free time and her summers are spent getting continuing education credit. thats my only two cents. she works a lot harder than my measly 40 hours and leave work at work job and i make more than 30,000 a year.
i know you mentioned sick days and personal time off. she gets 2 sick days and 1 personal day. she has yet to use them in the 5 years she's been working there. taking a day off and coming back = more work. the days of having a sub just sit in a class and keep everyone in line is over. to take a day off, you need to plan an activity and make sure its grade-able so the kids feel responsibility to do it for a sub.
I'm throwing the BS flag on this one,. No way she works from 5am to 8pm doing school work. I know many teachers and none of them rewrite every lesson plan every year. Now teachers do work more than the 8 hours they are in the building but exaggerating like you are do a disservice.
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7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers
I figure based on this line, that this particular teacher is one of those slave drivers. I think I had 5+ size reports to right like 2-3 times in my school career.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers
I figure based on this line, that this particular teacher is one of those slave drivers. I think I had 5+ size reports to right like 2-3 times in my school career.
I didn't catch that. my son is in all honors classes and does not even come close to this kind of work.
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My only two cents in this argument is that my partner is a teacher and she spends 5 am until about 8 pm doing school work, monday thru friday, and then makes lesson plans all day on sundays. she cant reuse lesson plans from the year before because in a year, so much changes. i have to sometimes help grade or else her saturdays would be consumed after friday tests. sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers. she has zero free time and her summers are spent getting continuing education credit. thats my only two cents. she works a lot harder than my measly 40 hours and leave work at work job and i make more than 30,000 a year.
I'm with pdawg... the BS flag is out.. 5am - 8pm is 15 hours a day plus all day on Sunday...... and Saturday if you don't help her... that's over 80 hours a week.... there isn't a public school teacher alive that works 80 hours a week every week......
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sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers.
When I was in high school, there were 7 periods in a school day and there was NEVER a teacher that had a class all 7 periods.. NEVER.. most had 4 or 5 legitimate classes to teach... My sons high school teachers now average 4 to 5 classes per day... I will also say that none of them have 30 kids in each class either.. how about 5 classes times 25 kids.. for 125 assignments.. and if she gives every class a 5 page paper due at the same time so she has to grade them all at the same time, well that's just poor planning on her part.  My son is taking high school English (if thats what she teaches) and he will have 3 papers due over the course of a semester.. not a 5 page paper due every week.
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It's a pretty good take, but then again some of the numbers are a little off. It has been a while but when I was back in high school, classes started at 7:50 or 7:55 AM and we were out by either 2:30 or 2:35 (not a ton of time difference). Also, that accounted for a 25 or 30 minute lunch and also out of 8 periods a day a teacher only had 6 classes. They also had 2 study hall periods, one of which was an actual study hall, and the other was open to meet with student's during the student's study hall in an effort to allow the teachers to give extra 1 on 1 time. That was actually a pretty cool idea in my opinion, but most teachers just used it as a planning period.
I will agree that your point is actually a pretty good point of view and I can't / won't take away from that. But let me also argue this ...
I have to question your assumption on the 3.00 per hour rule. There really could be some teachers out there (in a 10% unemployed company I almost guarantee it) that would be willing to work for maybe 1.00 per student per hour and STILL net close to $25.00 to $30.00 per actual hour worked ...
by basic principles of supply and demand the market would probably pull the wages of being a teacher down closer to the low 30k and maybe even into the mid 20k range within a year or two if a union didn't exist.
But it is an interesting point I will agree to that.
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My only two cents in this argument is that my partner is a teacher and she spends 5 am until about 8 pm doing school work, monday thru friday, and then makes lesson plans all day on sundays. she cant reuse lesson plans from the year before because in a year, so much changes. i have to sometimes help grade or else her saturdays would be consumed after friday tests. sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers. she has zero free time and her summers are spent getting continuing education credit. thats my only two cents. she works a lot harder than my measly 40 hours and leave work at work job and i make more than 30,000 a year.
I'm with pdawg... the BS flag is out.. 5am - 8pm is 15 hours a day plus all day on Sunday...... and Saturday if you don't help her... that's over 80 hours a week.... there isn't a public school teacher alive that works 80 hours a week every week......
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sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers.
When I was in high school, there were 7 periods in a school day and there was NEVER a teacher that had a class all 7 periods.. NEVER.. most had 4 or 5 legitimate classes to teach... My sons high school teachers now average 4 to 5 classes per day... I will also say that none of them have 30 kids in each class either.. how about 5 classes times 25 kids.. for 125 assignments.. and if she gives every class a 5 page paper due at the same time so she has to grade them all at the same time, well that's just poor planning on her part. My son is taking high school English (if thats what she teaches) and he will have 3 papers due over the course of a semester.. not a 5 page paper due every week.
I wasn't going to comment on this, but I will.
5 a.m. til 8 p.m. 5 days a week, plus most of Sat. and Sunday?
No way.
Conveniently left out is the 2 weeks or so at Christmas - the 2 to 5 day spring break - the 2 1/2 months of summer.
Look, my mom is a retired teacher - she never put in those hours.
I have many friends that are teachers - not a single one of them works from 5 a.m. to 8 p.m. In fact, no teacher does.
I drop my daughter off at school at 8 am. I routinely watch teachers walking in at that time.
I help in my daughters class every other week. Instead of dropping her off at 8 and driving around until 8:20, I go in. And most of the time the teachers aren't near their classroom.
Add in the lunch period and the 2 free periods teachers have (when the kids go to music, gym, art, etc)
There isn't a competent teacher around that works 13 hours a day - not even close to 13 hours a day.
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Aych, i'm assuming he is talking about high school. most of the teachers I know only get one planning period (which they work during) and a lunch.
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My only two cents in this argument is that my partner is a teacher and she spends 5 am until about 8 pm doing school work, monday thru friday, and then makes lesson plans all day on sundays. she cant reuse lesson plans from the year before because in a year, so much changes. i have to sometimes help grade or else her saturdays would be consumed after friday tests. sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers. she has zero free time and her summers are spent getting continuing education credit. thats my only two cents. she works a lot harder than my measly 40 hours and leave work at work job and i make more than 30,000 a year.
I'm with pdawg... the BS flag is out.. 5am - 8pm is 15 hours a day plus all day on Sunday...... and Saturday if you don't help her... that's over 80 hours a week.... there isn't a public school teacher alive that works 80 hours a week every week......
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sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers.
When I was in high school, there were 7 periods in a school day and there was NEVER a teacher that had a class all 7 periods.. NEVER.. most had 4 or 5 legitimate classes to teach... My sons high school teachers now average 4 to 5 classes per day... I will also say that none of them have 30 kids in each class either.. how about 5 classes times 25 kids.. for 125 assignments.. and if she gives every class a 5 page paper due at the same time so she has to grade them all at the same time, well that's just poor planning on her part. My son is taking high school English (if thats what she teaches) and he will have 3 papers due over the course of a semester.. not a 5 page paper due every week.
Since the days of slate tablets and one room schools (when you were in school) things have changed somewhat. My son has 9 periods a day. He is in honors classes but some of his teachers do teach other classes as well. They all get one planning period and a lunch. The rest of the day they do have kids. Our teachers and kids are in the high school and middle school for 8 hours. They do not teach for the full 8 but they are at work. Just bringing this up because some say 6 1/2 hours.
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Our teachers and kids are in the high school and middle school for 8 hours. They do not teach for the full 8 but they are at work. Just bringing this up because some say 6 1/2 hours.
I don't think I was one that said 6 1/2.. I just said I'm pretty sure none of them work 15 hours a day every day...
And in my sons high school, if you want to go there, they actually have 5 period but each period is longer and one of those periods is lunch, so teachers have 4 classes per day...
I will now take my stone tablet and break it over your head and the stick I was going to use to make fire and shove it up your... have a nice evening.
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Disgraced Former Tea Party Leader Calls On Right-Wing Activists To Pose As Service Employees International Union Organizers
National tea party groups like Americans for Prosperity have been bussing conservative activists to Madison, WI to confront protesters there standing up to Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) union busting. But Tea Party Nation and Mark Williams, the disgraced former chairman of Tea Party Express, who was forced to resign after making offensive racial comments, are calling for a more radical approach. In an email alert to supporters sent last night, Tea Party Nation promotes Williams’ “great idea” to impersonate SEIU organizers at upcoming labor rallies in an attempt to embarrass and discredit the union.
Williams lays out a highly dishonest and fairly involved scheme to have “plants” sign up on the SEIU website to be organizers for an upcoming rally, dress up in SEIU shirts, and to then make outrageous comments to reporters covering the events in order to “make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is”:
That link will take you to an SEIU page where you can sign up as an “organizer” for one of their upcoming major rallies to support the union goons in Wisconsin. Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in” (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures… signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!” and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us. [...]
Our goal is to make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is, ding their credibility with the media and exploit the lazy reporters who just want dramatic shots and outrageous quotes for headlines. Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth.
Williams is even hoping to make a few bucks off the idea, asking readers to “Please contribute!!!” as “I need to travel beyond Sacramento to the other SEIU rally cities and then Madison, and in short order!”
And Williams has no qualms about employing this treachery, telling his “plants”: “Chances are that because I am publishing this they’ll catch wind, but it is worth the chance if you take it upon yourself to act.” In an update, Williams say activists in Iowa, Colorado, Massachusetts, “and several other states” were already on board, and he said “Tea Party Patriot groups and individuals are flooding me with emails vowing to participate and come up with their own creative ruses!”
Williams’ plan appears to have been taken down from both Tea Party Nation and Williams’ own site, suggesting they perhaps realize this plan is entirely in the wrong, but view a cached version here, and screen grabs here and here.
Update In a statement to ThinkProgress, SEIU spokeswoman Michelle Ringuette condemned Williams' plot, saying: "At a time when Americans are standing up and courageously speaking out, these guys are playing the same old dirty tricks. Last week we learned about the Chamber trying to create phony research to debunk and hack into our computers, this week the Tea Party dons purple. It's like the emperor has no clothes: they have to rely on subterfuge because they do not really represent the majority of people."
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The irony of that article, though, is that it is itself an example of the author doing just what he is chastising them for doing: Falsely pretending to be one of the supporters and signing up to receive access to then use that access to attempt to discredit.
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prp...the teabaggers doing this are rotten dogs...and that is putting it as nicely as I can.
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prp...the teabaggers doing this are rotten dogs...and that is putting it as nicely as I can.
Mac, you really need to start coming up with your own words and thoughts rather than just cutting and pasting articles to prove what you think. Take a page from all the other posters here, including TheJoker who has similar beliefs to you, and actually write out something using YOUR own words.
You should start doing that before you start criticizing other posters here.
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tux...I agree with the words in this article as if they were my own...how is that?
Those high-falutin state workers
By O. Ricardo Pimentel of the Journal Sentinel
Feb. 21, 2011 3:52 p.m
E.J. Dionne Jr. of the Washington Post writes the tale of two conflicting graphics. In one, in the Wall Street Journal, state workers are shown earning more than private sector workers. The other, in the New York Times, had more info and a more nuanced conclusion:
“Wisconsin state workers have a median wage of $45,691, 22 percent more than the median wage earned by workers in the private sector. But these figures, which do not include benefits, can be deceptive because the state workforce is much better educated than the private-sector workforce. In Wisconsin, more than 60 percent of state workers have at least a bachelor's degree, compared with just over 20 percent in the private sector, according to census data. College-educated workers on the state payroll in fact earn a median wage that is 9 percent less than that of their peers in the private sector.”
In other words, if it’s a given that those with college degrees earn more money than those without and a particular workforce has more college-educated workers, it follows that wages for that workforce will be higher.
So, obviously, the answer for Wisconsin is to hire fewer educated workers, even if they are getting paid less than their equally educated private sector peers. Heck, who wants a highly educated workforce doing the public’s work, anyway?
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Isn't a college degree worth something?
Just one detail those doing the estimating for DawgTalk fail to take into consideration.
But remember, the unions said they would sit down with the the Governor and work on the economic issues...but that is not good enough for the Teabagging GOP Governor from Wisconsin, Walker.
Walker wants to take away the union's right to bargain, busting the unions...then lies about it, in true GOP/Teabag fashion. Walkers actually said he is not busting the unions...
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We are arguing on this forum about how "cushy" being a teacher is. I have two elementary teachers in the family, and even though they get the summer off, I would be interested in seeing the hourly pay breakdown. Teachers may be at school from 7 - 4, but I know they have to lesson plan, grade papers, and help with extracurriculars on nights and weekends. They also have to field phone calls from parents, have meetings with parents, provide extra help to kids outside of school hours, etc. Not everyone is capable of handling all of this.
Some may be... I recognize the challenges that teachers face... I counted the Wake County Public School calendar, counting days where students are in and days designated as teacher workdays... teachers are required to be at work 193 days in the 2010-11 school year.. I'm not sure exactly how many sick days and personal days they get but lets assume for the sake of argument that they take 10 days off during the course of the year.. that's 183 days at work... compared to the traditional work year, which is 260 calendar days per year, minus 6 or 7 holidays, we'll say 14 vacation days and 5 sick days... the average person in the work world probably works 235 days +/- during the calendar year.... that's a full 52 days more at work for the average working professional than teachers work.
Now I know that teachers are at school 8-9 hours and then have these other commitments... so does everybody else. I will be in Charlotte for a couple days next week, then Charleston, SC the week after, then Fairfax, VA the week after that. I will miss my daughters soccer game, I will be away from my family. I work Saturdays and Sundays sometimes, I take work home with me, I work in my hotel in the evening when I'm on the road, my timesheet usually has between 48-55 hours per week on it but there is almost always more than that that I could put on it if I wanted to.
One big thing that I live with... during the last few years, people in my industry have been laying people off right and left.. my industry has the highest unemployement rate of all industries.. I have been blessed because I went to work for a stable company with a solid business plan that has actually grown during this economy.. I won't say I've been lucky because I sought this company out and I make a little less here than I could some other place but this company takes care of its people.. but many in my industry are either out of work or greatly underemployed right now...
My only two cents in this argument is that my partner is a teacher and she spends 5 am until about 8 pm doing school work, monday thru friday, and then makes lesson plans all day on sundays. she cant reuse lesson plans from the year before because in a year, so much changes. i have to sometimes help grade or else her saturdays would be consumed after friday tests. sit down with about 7 classes times 30 kids a class (210) and grade their 5 page papers. she has zero free time and her summers are spent getting continuing education credit. thats my only two cents. she works a lot harder than my measly 40 hours and leave work at work job and i make more than 30,000 a year.
i know you mentioned sick days and personal time off. she gets 2 sick days and 1 personal day. she has yet to use them in the 5 years she's been working there. taking a day off and coming back = more work. the days of having a sub just sit in a class and keep everyone in line is over. to take a day off, you need to plan an activity and make sure its grade-able so the kids feel responsibility to do it for a sub.
I'm throwing the BS flag on this one,. No way she works from 5am to 8pm doing school work. I know many teachers and none of them rewrite every lesson plan every year. Now teachers do work more than the 8 hours they are in the building but exaggerating like you are do a disservice.
it's not BS. call her up. PM me if you need the number. i was just pointing out what one teacher i know (personally) does. that's all. i neither said i was for or against all of this 
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tux...I agree with the words in this article as if they were my own...how is that?
nice try, but those are not your own words on the subject. it's just a cheap and easy way to avoid having others analyzing and criticizing "your" words and thoughts. use articles as your source, not as your words and thoughts. maybe then you can start getting respect in these threads. I have disagreed with a lot of things others like TheJoker have said, but I do respect them for actually using their own words and thoughts as opposed to using articles to articulate what they believe in.
as far as how much should a college degree should be worth?
just because you have a college degree means squat. it's what the person, who has the degree, has between their ears and work ethic in them.
the other issue is oversaturation of degrees. if everyone has one, are they worth much? soon you'd need a masters if everyone has a bachelors.
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Your vacation schedule isn't anywhere near the norm.
I accrued 4 hrs per pay period the first 3 years; 6 hrs/pay period to 15 years; and 8 hrs per pay period after 15.
Its the norm in my industry, my package also includes 401k, medical/dental/vision/life/disability insurance, 50% tuition assistance for certain company related degrees, and various incentive programs (perfect attendance, smoking cessation, weight loss, etc). My pay is a little lower than the industry norm because I work for a small company, but I like the work and the people so I am willing to do it for less money.
Working conditions seem to vary by line of work. So I say if you don't like yours, change careers. School is available for anyone who wants an education.
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I've never heard of ThinkProgress..
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Its the norm in my industry, my package also includes 401k, medical/dental/vision/life/disability insurance, 50% tuition assistance for certain company related degrees, and various incentive programs (perfect attendance, smoking cessation, weight loss, etc). My pay is a little lower than the industry norm because I work for a small company, but I like the work and the people so I am willing to do it for less money.
Working conditions seem to vary by line of work. So I say if you don't like yours, change careers. School is available for anyone who wants an education.
Ah, so now it's the "norm in your industry". On the last page you were saying it was the norm for the private sector.
While it may be the norm for your career - it is NOT the norm for most private sector jobs.
The most paid vacation I ever got was 2 weeks. No sick days. No nothing else - very seldom got even 3 day weekends on holiday weeks. Even worked til 6 o'clock pm on Christmas eve one year.
No problem - it was my job - in the private sector.
My wife has been at her job for over 20 years. 3 weeks of paid vacation - 6 or 7 paid holidays. 3 days of sick leave with a doctors note and the company matches up to 3% for a 401K.
My bet is that is far closer to the norm for most - 90% - of private sector jobs. Not 3 months off, with 5 or 6 holidays, etc.
Wanna talk cool? My brother gets 8 weeks of vacation a year. He works for a gov't. agency though.
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CNN has frequently hosted Tea Party Express spokesman Mark Williams despite his history of incendiary and racially charged rhetoric, which most recently resulted in his expulsion from the National Tea Party Federation. CNN has hosted Williams as a guest 10 times since August 2009
Funny I read your radical left wing site which linked to all of these other ultra lefty sites and the above is my favorite line... Despite his history of saying radical things... yea, it's DESPITE those things that CNN has him on associated with the tea party all the time... It's certainly not to try to discredit the tea party, no, they couldn't go get any of the many people who could talk intelligently about the tea party.. no, they go get the equivalent of T.O., ask him leading questions, then pretend to be astounded when he says something stupid... .. what a bunch of morons...
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prp...the teabaggers doing this are rotten dogs...and that is putting it as nicely as I can.
I never said that they weren't... I was just pointing out the comedy of that article as the author is doing the same thing.
Browns is the Browns
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