It looks as though we are beginning to devour our own... we are chewing off our arm for a food supply.
We all know what teachers get and do when they sign up for the job, yes there are extra days of vacation, but there is take home work and preparation involved that generally is outside of class time.
Just because it is not a 8 to 5 job does not mean that hours are not worked. Just ask a band teacher or coach of some sort if the compensation for the time that they spend with the kids makes financial sense. It does not.
And not many of us have the challenge of dealing with irate parents, or administrative rules that make no sense. I have personally seen teacher fund supplies for their classroom because there was no help from the school.
I think of teachers in a lot of different ways, but the concept of teachers being overpaid is new to me. In fact, the thought of a teacher being anything other than someone who is dedicated to a underpaying career has never occurred to me.
It does not make financial sense to get a college degree to become a teacher. Many of them have loans to repay that will take them much longer because they are a teacher. Plus the fact that having a Bachelors degree is not sufficient, most schools expect a Masters degree within a few years of graduation.
We are heading down a road of destruction from within that is bad, we can see the target listing, who is next .... trash workers, police and fire-fighters?.
While I have no love for unions, this is just mean spirited "American Bashing" at its worse.
This sort of rationale will result in the end of the "middle-class" American.
Quote: We all know what teachers get and do when they sign up for the job, yes there are extra days of vacation, but there is take home work and preparation involved that generally is outside of class time.
That comes with the territory of a salaried position.... and the regular world ISN'T getting weeks upon weeks of extra vacation time where they can work a summer job.
Do you think Joe Worker is getting extra pay for all the extra hours he puts in preparing for his Sales meetings? Does Sally get paid extra for the long days she has to put in doing On-Site work with a client? Does the IT guy get paid extra for coming in on Sunday to work on the mail server because that is the only day that the rest of the company can live without it?
Everybody has their sob story. Theirs is no different, nor any more special.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Incomes are down...property values are down...many people are taking cuts...how do we keep paying the expenses?
The focus is on the teachers who might take a financial hit...it sucks...however...the people who pay the taxes to employ the teachers have already taken a financial hit.
The money is not there...and likely won't be for quite some time.
The states must reduce their spending just like many others...it's not rocket science and it's NOT about busting the chops of our teachers/cops/firemen/office workers etc.
The same impact that unions had on the auto industry has made its way to the public employee system.
I just found this "note" on Facebook. Thought it was pretty interesting and something I never thought about.
Quote: Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit!
We can get that for less than minimum wage.
That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).
Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.
However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.
LET'S SEE....
That's $585 X 180= $105,300
per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).
What about those special
education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an
hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.
Wait a minute -- there's
something wrong here! There sure is!
The average teacher's salary
(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days
= $277.77/per day/30
students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!
Make a teacher smile; repost this to show appreciation for all educators.
I'm not suggesting that the debate is whether teachers are valuable or not. I think everyone thinks that teachers are quite valuable...I just think that many vastly, vastly undervalue the importance of a good educator. If the average school day is 7 hours, and the average school year is 180 days, then your child spends 15,120 hours with a teacher from k to 12th grade.
The median salary for a teacher is about $43,000. This graph shows where household income falls for individuals and households.
Basically my point is people try to demonize teachers and say they're overpaid constantly and I don't think that's right. They are the ones responsible for shaping a large part of our population. Instead of trying to cut away their collective bargaining power, we need to be making being a public educator more attractive. It is one of the most important jobs a person can have. While I do agree that reforms to the education system need to be made, cutting away collective bargaining is going to make being a public educator more undesirable. In a job where there is little to no room for vertical movement, collective bargaining ensures that a person's wages keep up with the times, and rewards those who give their life to shaping our children get rewarded for their hard for.
I think eliminating or reducing "automatic raises" WHILE keeping collective bargaining would be a good step towards figuring this whole thing out and ensuring that the U.S. education rankings climb upwards. There is no reason the most developed and wealthy country in the world should be anything other than 1st in education.
Quote: and it's NOT about busting the chops of our teachers/cops/firemen/office workers etc.
Who else then is getting their chops busted then ?
Many many people.. everybody who has had no raises and benefit cuts and job losses... everybody who is seeing the price of food and clothing go up to make up for the trillions of dollars we printed... Even those who haven't experienced it are fearful that they will... basically everybody without the security of government job...
I put in somewhere in the range of an extra 5-10 hours of my own time .... doing scheduling .... planning meetings ..... working on priorities and budgets ... and so on.
My scheduled week is a 5 day/48 hour week. That has never happened once. I almost always work a 6th and sometimes a 7th day. I almost always go in early and leave late. Somehow I always wind up working a 6th day. My usual week is between 55-70 hours in the restaurant, plus the time I put in at home. No big deal, that's part of the job.
I think that most salaried people do work on their own time. Teachers do it .... so do most of us on a salary.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Its not only the norm in my industry, all of my friends have pretty similar job benefits as well in a broad spectrum of jobs. Though we are all in our mid to late 20s with at least one degree, so maybe that's just the norm when you get a good education and you have something valuable to offer. I have only ever worked in 2 fields, military and science so I only have in depth knowledge of the 2.
Instead of getting pissy with me because I have these benefits and you don't, why not go back to school and get a (another? didn't you say you had a college degree before?) start on a new career where you can have these same benefits instead of trying to tear down the people who do?
You don't need to work 60+ hours with no days off to get ahead in this country. If that's what you currently have to do, change it if you don't like it. The opportunity is still there for those that want to seize it.
Anyone looking for a job in my industry now there is one at BASF The Chemical Company in Beachwood for a Lab Technician II, they are looking for someone with a BS in chemistry or related field, 2-3 years experience, or an Associates Degree with more real world experience. The job is Monday-Friday 8-4pm and starts at 16 bucks an hour, and offers a benefits package nearly identical to what I outlined above. How do I know this? I just turned it down recently. Its still open as far as I know. You want an opportunity for a "cushy" job? There it is, go get it.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
If you guys saw my posts last summer I was graduated and couldn't find a job for close to 8 months. (Still not in an ideal situation .. but who is) I only have a slight amount of experience but have a graduate degree, a bachelors of science in finance, and a double minor. I went without a steady job and that's ok because I am young ... what didn't bother me was being told I didn't have any real world experience for countless entry level jobs like being a bank teller or for enterprise rent a car or even being an assistant at the local lowes / walgreens / etc ... (the list goes on ...)
What started to get my eyes to open up is when I went into a few positions (one of them a government interview) where the person interviewing me said that I was more qualified then them. The country is not hopeless ... but when 1 out of 10 people who wants to work can't ... it's not the time for anyone to be greedy. YES that includes the multi millionaires .. but it also includes those in unions who by putting more pressure on a company end up forcing the company to another country.
My dad was a plant manager and about 8 years ago had to send almost 4,200 jobs to south america because they were willing to do the job at what it cost that plant to bring in the raw materials ... Unions are great until they eat away at themselves.
You see the iphones and people talking to each other with pictures ... you see the computers with webcams ... how far away are we from actually being more affordable to have private lessons for your kids online in a webcam classroom with a teacher in another country that can be USA certified (it could be canada, england, even India or China). I bet those people who are living in poverty would work for less money and no benefits if it meant they could work ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
Ok, if you want to prove a point, you first need facts, not positions. You could demonstrate that teachers are disproprtionately wealthy, or that they are not providing the value that they are being paid for. Or that somehow the collective bargaining arrangment is somehow detrimental to the education process, or any number of items that would point to the reason behind the excessive compensation.
I came across the following, I don't know how accurate it is, so it may not be factual.
Only five states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows: South Carolina - 50th, North Carolina - 49th, Georgia - 48th, Texas - 47th, Virginia - 44th. If you're wondering, Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, is ranked ... second in the country.
I don't have any love for unions, but I disagree with the premise of the arguement when it has not been substantiated in fact. The fact that this legislation is specifically directed at teachers, versus the pension system as a whole is a problem to me. If the discussion was related to a pension versus defined benefit discussion, it would have more merit, maybe that is where it will go without a collective bargaining system, but that is not how it is being presented.
When the autoworkers were the subject of the discussion, there were facts associated with the position. We are missing the facts, other than the fact that Wisconsin has historically paid the full amount into the pension and health care fund.
Quote: Ah, so now it's the "norm in your industry". On the last page you were saying it was the norm for the private sector.
I also said in my post to YTown that I was comparing apples to apples by not including jobs like construction worker, best buy clerk, etc. A gas station attendant is part of the private sector, but they most of the time do not even have a benefits package at all. Is it fair to compare the 2? No. I'm talking jobs with at minimum a bachelor's degree requirement and in a lot of cases a master's degree requirement as that is what is required to be a teacher today.
Imo if you have a master's degree and you don't get any time off, you either really love your job and don't want to take time off or you picked the wrong career (unfortunately social worker comes to mind, master's minimum for awful compensation, relatively speaking).
The point being, when you have the education and training at the level that a teacher does, you can reasonably expect to be compensated well. That could be in money, benefits, or a combination of both.
The next time you or one of your family members gets sick and you give a blood sample, be glad its me running the tests and not some guy they found somewhere willing to work for 10 bucks an hour with no time off. Same thing with who is teaching your kids. I'd much rather have my worst teacher teaching mine than the dude selling phone cards at best buy.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
None of the schools in the Youngstown area were "maximum" level schools either.
This was from 2008, but informative. It is especially informative when taking into account housing costs and other local expenses vs those of other areas in the state with higher salary ranges.
I do have to wonder just how highly educated a grade school teacher needs to be. They really just need to be able to understand and teach to a grade school level. Someone brought up Masters degrees earlier in the thread .... but do we really need grade school educators with masters or doctorate degrees?
No Mahoning Valley schools are among the top 25 in terms of starting or maximum salaries.
YOUNGSTOWN — Only a handful of the 48 public schools in the tri-county area offered starting teacher salaries above the state average in 2007-08.
A few more exceeded the average maximum salary level paid to teachers at the top of their pay scales across Ohio, according to a report prepared by the Ohio Education Association, the union representing 130,000 educators in the state.
Canfield, Howland, Mahoning County Career & Technical Center, Poland, and Trumbull Career & Technical Center offered a starting salary above the state average of $30,965 for a new teacher with a bachelor’s degree.
Austintown, Boardman, Girard, Joseph Badger, Lordstown, MCCTC, Poland, Struthers and TCTC all offered top salaries to their most experienced and most highly educated teachers that were higher than the state top salary average of $65,651.
None of the local schools were among the top 25 in the state in either the starting or maximum salary categories, which saw a top starting salary of nearly $42,000 in Beachwood City and a maximum reaching just over $97,000 in Aurora City schools.
Several local schools — Bloomfield-Mespo, Southern and Wellsville — were in the bottom 25 in the starting salary category with the very lowest starting salary in the state at $21,016 in a Southern Local School District in Racine, Ohio, in Meigs County.
Richard Scarsella, president of the MCCTC board, said the school is aware that it offers some of the highest salaries in the tri-county area.
He believes the technical school is such a hybrid and requires the highest level of expertise that higher salaries are warranted to attract top people.
The teachers there are very highly trained personnel in areas where high schools don’t normally teach, Scarsella said, pointing out that it can be difficult to find licensed, certified professionals for the programs MCCTC offers.
The theory has been to treat the educators as well as possible to help with the retention rate, he said.
Higher salaries are a “socioeconomic demographic,” said Dr. Robert Zorn, Poland superintendent, noting that Poland has been in the top three in the tri-county area in teacher salaries, “for as long as I remember.”
“It’s all part of the total package,” Zorn said, explaining that Poland’s excellent academic record helps attract top teaching applicants.
More affluent districts pay more, historically, he added.
Dante Zambrini, Canfield superintendent, said suburban schools in the tri-county area may be at the top of the local salary scale, but they’re well below suburban schools near Ohio’s large urban areas of Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati.
“I have lost candidates to those suburbs,” he said, explaining that people have chosen to go where more money is being offered.
The money may be better, but the costs of living also are higher. Housing, for example, is significantly higher in Cleveland, Cincinnati and Columbus.
The average selling price of homes in the Youngstown area was just over $93,000 in June, as compared with $151,000 in the greater Cleveland area, $169,000 in the Cincinnati area and $180,000 in the Columbus area, according to Realtor associations in those regions.
Canfield does need a competitive teacher rate, but must also be frugal with its finances, Zambrini said.
The district’s academic success has been a favorable factor in attracting teaching candidates, he said, pointing out that it is the people who have invested time and money in securing additional education over the years who reach the highest levels of the salary scale.
There was a time — 30 to 35 years ago — when the local urban areas such as Youngstown, Campbell and Sebring were at the top of the local teacher salary scale, Zambrini said. That’s when steel mills and other large manufacturing operations were flourishing and the districts weren’t suffering financially.
The closing of those big manufacturers hurt the urban schools economically, and local suburban districts gradually moved past urban schools on the scale, he said.
Youngstown remains the largest school district in the tri-county area, but its teacher salary scale is down the list. Twenty-three of the 48 local schools offer a higher starting salary and 12 offer higher maximum salaries.
The Youngstown schools have been in state-declared fiscal emergency since November 2006, and the teachers were in the second year of a four-year base-salary wage freeze last year.
Youngstown hasn’t been near the top of the local salary scale for a long time, said Will Bagnola, president of the Youngstown Education Association, the union representing the district’s teachers.
Bagnola said Youngstown teachers have been willing to forgo some of the higher raises that others in the area got, largely because the city schools have had a good benefits package.
That has eroded somewhat, however, in the last round of negotiations, which saw teachers agreeing to pick up an average of 5 percent of their health-care costs, he said.
The teachers are certainly aware of the district’s financial condition and the fact that voters have three times turned down a 9.5-mill tax levy the school board says is needed to overcome a budget deficit, Bagnola said, adding that they are dedicated to their profession and don’t complain much about their status on the local salary scale.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Okay. You are pointing to the overall issue of the thread and not certain individuals. I think I said it before that the teachers are the easiest target to focus on because their salaries and benefits are much easier to find, as well as people having some knowledge of what they do. I don't think an attack on teachers is going on here or in the statehouses. The teachers are in the forefront in Wisconsin and Ohio o the media is focusing on them.
Ok, I took a closer look at the proposed bill, and agree, the only public employees excluded are public safety (e.g. police and firemen) workers.
I have not found a reasonable explanation as to why public saftey workers are excluded, although there is a lot of speculation it is because they were the only union groups that supported the governor in his election run. This may or may not be accurate, one thing for sure, we probaly won't know the real reason as that would be a political football.
I agree that teachers are the easiest to identify, it is one of the few professions that is highly unionized and requires a college degree.
Either way, there is a lack of facts to support that position that the compensation is unreasonable. We don't know the history, as collective bargining arrangements have leaned towards mainatining health care and pension plans.
Quote: Only five states do not have collective bargaining for educators and have deemed it illegal. Those states and their ranking on ACT/SAT scores are as follows: South Carolina - 50th, North Carolina - 49th, Georgia - 48th, Texas - 47th, Virginia - 44th. If you're wondering, Wisconsin, with its collective bargaining for teachers, is ranked ... second in the country.
Yes But in Wisconsin there's few distractions to go with the education during a lot of the school year with all the cold and snow.
How do you explain California's extremely poor ratings? and other strong public union state?
SAT Scores: California ranks 35 New York ranks 46th despite having the highest per pupil cost.
And if you want to see the real truth about those scores...
Wisconsin participation rate on SATs: 4% California: 50% Texas: 53%
Actually the highest state with a participation rate over 50% is Washington, ranked 25 with 54% participation
It's easier to get higher scores when only a few, I'm guessing those who actually are prepared and want to take the test and score well, are taking it.
If you look at the ACT scores, you may have a point, but if you look at SAT scores, it's a little lacking.
But then those scores can be skewed by more factors than the teachers who are teaching them, because after all standardized tests are evil and bad and should never be used to evaluate teachers. Just ask any teacher's union that and see how they like being evaluated by standardized testing.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Do you happen to have a link to SAT/ACT combined? When I was in high school, I only took the ACT since most schools I was applying to only required that. I know certain out of state schools require the SAT though.
Quote: Do you happen to have a link to SAT/ACT combined? When I was in high school, I only took the ACT since most schools I was applying to only required that. I know certain out of state schools require the SAT though.
The ACT test scores are here. It does seem like there is better overall participation with the ACT test.
But Wisconsin is not #2 on either list as a previous poster was suggesting. Wisc was #3 on the SAT, but only with a 4% participation rate.
Ok I found where people are getting the combined score from (FROM 1999)
Wisconsin's ACT score rank has gone down since then.. Their combined score now is 16 (SAT:3 + ACT:13) Though I think their SAT rank is inflated due to the low participation rate.
Iowa has a 12. Minnesota has a 12. Missouri has a 27, even though they are #4 on SATs. They rank 23 on ACT. Mass. has a 28 even though they are #1 on the ACTs. NH as well as a 28 even though they are #2 on the ACTs.
The combined score is not an accurate measure by any means. They use state rank of SAT plus the State rank of the ACTs.
Last edited by ~TuX~; 02/22/1103:18 AM.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Ok I think I might be siding a little more with the workers here. It does not sound like Walker is up to any compromise unless it includes eradication of Collective Bargaining. He won't even agree to only suspend it for two years(~6 minutes into the embedded video). Though he does make a lot of sense with a lot of things, but those things can be fixed without getting rid of collective bargaining. More and more, it is just sounding like he's trying to just get rid of the unions rather than trying to do anything with the budget.
Last edited by ~TuX~; 02/22/1104:29 AM.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Quote: I do have to wonder just how highly educated a grade school teacher needs to be. They really just need to be able to understand and teach to a grade school level. Someone brought up Masters degrees earlier in the thread .... but do we really need grade school educators with masters or doctorate degrees?
They don't need the degree because they are teaching quantum mechanics to first graders. Most of us have a grasp of the material an elementary school kid needs to know. Most of the masters stuff is about doing and reading research on what are the best methods to reach kids; evidence-based education.
Its about being a better, more effective teacher.
Quote: Boardman averages over $60k in salary. Remember that this is for 9 months, with all federal holidays off.
I'm not sure what the point is here. Is Boardman a good school system? I know where I grew up, our school had a hard time hanging on to good, young teachers b/c the pay was way below other school districts, and we couldn't pass a levy ever.
Any time a good teacher came along, by and large, they were there about 5 years, then they moved on to Aurora or Beachwood or wherever else paid more. This is my point, if you artificially lower salaries of teachers by removing collective bargaining, two things will happen; the good ones move to other states where there is a better labor environment, and good people thinking about going into teaching will think again.
Quote: Your vacation schedule isn't anywhere near the norm.
I accrued 4 hrs per pay period the first 3 years; 6 hrs/pay period to 15 years; and 8 hrs per pay period after 15.
Its the norm in my industry, my package also includes 401k, medical/dental/vision/life/disability insurance, 50% tuition assistance for certain company related degrees, and various incentive programs (perfect attendance, smoking cessation, weight loss, etc). My pay is a little lower than the industry norm because I work for a small company, but I like the work and the people so I am willing to do it for less money.
Working conditions seem to vary by line of work. So I say if you don't like yours, change careers. School is available for anyone who wants an education.
That's great.
As for me, I was educated, made a nice living, and retired before 60 because I get a nice pension, had a nice 401K saved up, and did very well with some investments. One of these days I will even start drawing on Social Security.
The point is the 4 months vacation you talk about isn't the norm, so quit talking like it is then simply telling people to get educated and find another job....it makes you sound like a goof....but that's just my opinion. *shrug*
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Teachers are important ..... but are they more important than firemen? Policemen? Other public servants, or people holding "important" private sector jobs?
According to what I can find, a cop in Ohio isn't pulling down an average of 60K. Many fire departments in Ohio are volunteer. When you take into account that teachers automatically get a 1/3 wage advantage due to having 3 months off each and every summer, or the opportunity to earn more by working during that time, either in a summer schooing related position, or in a different position, and the disparity grows.
Teachers are definitely very important. Most are committed professionals who truly care about the job they have chosen as their career. This sentence applies to many other fields of work as well, just as many of which are vital to our current well-being, as well as the future of our communities.
Teachers deserve respect, but they do not deserve to be out upon a pedastal above all other professions. Tenure is one of the most idiotic things to ever come down the pike. Teachers should be retained/promoted/get raises based on proficiency and results. They should not automatically receive pay increases and damn near absolute job protection by virtue of not having gone away. Teachers, policemen, firemen, restaurant employees, trash collectors, retail store managers, and so on should all be evaluated on the same basic criteria .... how well do they do their job. Until and unless we can weed out the ineffective we can never improve our public services. I think that we can all agree that we want the best public services we can have, including education, delivered in the most cost efficiet manner possible. The current model, to me, does not look like the best way to accomplish this.
This is the problem with what unions have wrought. I don't have a problem with unions, and protecting workers against truly egregious behavior and violations of the law by employers. However, this is not where unions stop. It's become a game. Contract's up ..how much more can we get so that we can justify our dues? This becomes the main focus ..... not "what is best for the employees and the city/state/municipality ... but rather how the union can justify its existence.
I go back to what I was told by a Youngstown Councilman:
When I moved into this house, he stopped by to introduce himself. He asked me to let him know if there was anything he could ever do for me.
I said "Cut my taxes".
He laughed and saud that he had no control over property taxes.
I said "I don't mean property taxes. Currently (4 years ago. I don;t know if this has changed since) Youngstown is 2nd highest in the state of Ohio as far as base income tax rate. This is a killer as far as bringing business to the city. It's also just too damn high. If other cities can make do with less, then Youngstown should be able to as well.
He then went into the fact that ALL city union employees contracts automatically go to binding arbitration, and raises are handled in this manner. He explained how "this eliminates strikes", and how "we wouldn't want city empoyees going on strike, would we?".
I replied .... YES. If it gets costs under control ... then let them strike. Replace them if you have to. If the city needs one of the highest tax rates in the state just to barely get by, then something in the formula isn't working. A child cann see that.
He mumbled something about that I don't understand and walked away.
Well Mr Councilman .... the problem is that I DO understand. I have done budgets for million dollar businesses. I have done P&L statements ... pouring over each line, and how it impacts the the ability of the business to be successful. I understand that you cannot have costs go up while income remains the same .. or drops. Without businesses moving into Youngstown, the tax base will never increase. With a prohibative income tax rate, businesses will never move into the city. Someone looking to move into the area will see that Youngstown has lower property taxes than say Boardman or Austintown ....... but those higher property tax rates are offset with a very high income tax rate compared to ZERO for the other municipalities. Until and unless city srvice costs are brought down so that the income tax rate can be decreased, then no serious employer will look to buy land and build a business in the city of Youngstown.
I went a little off track at the end here ..... but it really is the track. Constantly increasing public services costs requires increasing taxes eventually. Increasing taxes puts your city at a competitive disadvantage as far as new business goes. So you start on this downward spiral eventually .......... really just as soon as an economic downturn hits ........ costs become unsustainable, and then you wind up in the spot we're talking about with the teachers, unions, contracts, and so on.
By the way ... did anyone hear Rachael Maddows say that the state of Wisconsin actually has a surplus and that noen of this is necessary. I have to insult anyone .... but this is pretty typical Dreamland BS coming from the left. Wisconsin, Ohio, and all of these other states haven't "invented" deficits ...creating them out of thin air. Not enough money to pay the bill creates deficits. Maybe someone should clue her in on the way this works before she opens her mouth and makes herself look stupid again.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Some are complaining that I'm not posting my thoughts..that I'm just posting articles...so here is a small dose of my thoughts concerning Wisconsin, GOP, Teabaggers etc...
You ever hear RWers complain about being "taxed" too much?
A tax "takes money" from the individuals, and gives it to the government doing the taxing.
What the GOP is doing in many states, with Wisconsin being their test run...these GOP Governors are LEVYING A TAX ON THE MIDDLE CLASS WORKERS.
The GOP is "taking money" from middle class workers while giving millions away to business and the wealthy.
The GOP campaigns and wins elections based on the theme of cutting your taxes and taxes are too high...they no problem what so ever giving tax cuts away to rich corporations and the wealthiest Americans, who overwhelmingly vote GOP.
The GOP Governor in Wisconsin burnt through the $121.4 million dollars surplus the outgoing Democratic Governor left behind on Jan 3, 2011, like it was butter...giving tax cuts to business and the wealthiest
This tactic sound familiar?...
But rather than raising taxes on everyone (shared sacrifice), Walker is levying a "targeted tax hike" at those who traditionally vote, support and give donations to Democrats.
This pure radical RW/Teabagger politics at its worst.
What could be worse?...Teabagger Walker's proposal not only targets democrat Middle class workers economically, but he wants to damage their ability to bargain as a union, forever...the Teabaggers want to destroy Unions..
What he is doing is very dangerous for this country...FOR ALL WORKING AMERICANS, whether you are union or not, Republican or Democrat...
No longer is the this a country with a government of the people, by the people, for the people..
...that government of the people, by the people, for the people...is perishing from the face of the earth and in it's place is a government of the rich, by the rich and for the rich.
The rich will find a way to make the middle class pay for their tax cuts and spending sprees and to make sure they won't be forced to pay their fair share...
...the Wisconsin Gov Walker is merely the tool the rich are using to get the job done via..POLICTICS..with the help of THE GOP and THE TEABAGGERS...who work for the rich...
If you believe the GOP/Teabaggers give a damn about middle class and working class Americans...YOU ARE A FOOL.
Problem is, we have way too many fools in the middle/working class who don't have the intelligence to understand what is happening. Those middle and working class Americans cheering on the Teabaggers and GOP don't realize it now, but it's just a matter of time before they will begin to pay too.
I wonder how many who read this are saying...this won't affect me...lol..
Like I said, too many fools in the middle/working class.
That has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever heard in my entire life ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I don't claim to know Wisconsin economic status but if it was anything like Ohio's then the Republicans Cutting taxes for business is to spur job growth.
States like Texas and Florida not only have good climate they also have low taxes. So for states like Ohio and Wisconsin to compete they will need to start cutting taxes and look to make up the cuts else where.
Yet you claim it is because they want to fight with Unions. Do you have any proof of that? Did they send out a memo or something?
Quote: The GOP Governor in Wisconsin burnt through the $121.4 million dollars surplus the outgoing Democratic Governor left behind on Jan 3, 2011, like it was butter...giving tax cuts to business and the wealthiest
This tactic sound familiar?...
The only tactic that sounds familiar here mac is yours.. just like when Clinton left that huge imaginary surplus...
WI Fiscal Bureau Chief: Walker Tax Cuts Did Not Cause This Year's Budget Shortfall 7:15 PM, Feb 18, 2011 By JOHN MCCORMACK
One talking point from opponents of Scott Walker's budget and unions bill is that the $137 million budget shortfall for Wisconsin's current fiscal year is the result of spending on health savings accounts and business tax cuts Walker pushed through during a special legislative session last month. "Walker gins up 'crisis' to reward cronies," reads the headline of an editorial for Madison's Capitol Times, a self-described progressive news outlet. The editorial reports:
In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.
To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.
The liberal news website Talking Points Memo repeats the claim made in the Cap Times editorial that former Democratic governor Jim Doyle left the state with a surplus. But the claim isn't true. According to Robert Lang, the director of the Wisconsin Fiscal Bureau (the Legislature's nonpartisan budget office), the purported $121 million surplus does not account for $258 million in other other shortfalls, including money owed to the state of Minnesota. Lang writes in an email to TWS:
January 31, 2011. The condition statement is shown on page 2. It reflects a projected gross balance on June 30, 2011, of $121.4 million. This document was prepared prior to the introduction of the state's budget adjustment bill. In addition to the condition statement, the document identifies a pending payment under the Minnesota/Wisconsin Income Tax Reciprocity Program (page 3) and 2010-11 appropriation shortfalls (pages 3 and 4). The Minnesota/Wisconsin payment and the identified shortfalls total $258.1 million. These amounts are not reflected in the January 31 condition statement because legislative and executive action would be required between February 1, 2011, and June 30, 2011, to address them. If the entire $258.1 million was to be addressed before June 30, 2011, the gross general fund balance would be -$136.7 million. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
In a phone call this evening, Lang confirmed that "the fiscal effect" of Walker's health savings accounts and business bills "is not reflected until the 2011-2013 budget." The projected deficit for the 2011-2013 budget is $3.6 billion.So the state will eventually have to find a way to pay for Walker's and the legislature's recent measures, but the claim that he "ginned up" the current controversy by rewarding "cronies" with those bills is false.
___________________________________
Just more facts mac, please feel free to step around them in making in your point....
Quote: Until and unless we can weed out the ineffective we can never improve our public services. I think that we can all agree that we want the best public services we can have, including education, delivered in the most cost efficiet manner possible. The current model, to me, does not look like the best way to accomplish this.
This.
I know I had some great teachers who really kept my attention and willingness to listen and learn, and I some who couldn't keep me awake.
My step- son (now grown and out of school), struggled in math all through school, mainly because he didn't have his times tables memorized.
In 7th grade the wife and I went to an open house at the school and made a point of visiting his math teacher. There we sat with about 15 other parents, and the teacher went into an explanation of his daily class routine.
1) He puts the answers the the previous nights homework on the board. 2) Students exchange papers and compare their fellow student's homework to the answers on the board, return homework to student. 3) He then writes the subject and textbook pages on the board. 4) The students are to read the text and do the practice exercises.
I raised my hand and asked "and when do you explain to them the subject matter and show examples, and answer questions", he replied he didn't teach that way, that he felt the students would get more if they taught themselves.
"These are 7th graders learning algebra and geometry, and you expect they will become proficient at it without any instruction?" I replied. At that time another parent spoke up and said something like "No wonder my kid is confused and frustrated, she's not actually being taught anything."
The teacher then said "Well as parents it is your job to assist them in learning.", so I replied "And as a tax payer paying your salary, I expect you to at least instill the basic knowledge so that when I assist him, I'm not starting from scratch."
From there it just got ugly as it appeared most parents disapproved of this method for 7th grade math.
From what I know he still teaches math there.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Quote: I don't claim to know Wisconsin economic status but if it was anything like Ohio's then the Republicans Cutting taxes for business is to spur job growth.
States like Texas and Florida not only have good climate they also have low taxes. So for states like Ohio and Wisconsin to compete they will need to start cutting taxes and look to make up the cuts else where.
Yet you claim it is because they want to fight with Unions. Do you have any proof of that? Did they send out a memo or something?
free...Or..it could be part of the plan...kind of hard to ask the unions for concessions if the state of Wisc. had a surplus of 121+million dollars.
Free...it sure as hell didn't take this "conservative teabagger" long to burn through that surplus, did it?
Also, if the state is such dire financial condition, what Governor in their right mind would blow a surplus of 121 million?...that is pure nuts..crazy.
The Governor and his GOP/teabag buddies (legislature) got rid of the surplus so they could say, hey, the state of Wisconsin is broke.
BTW, didn't Obama give business tax breaks as part of the deal worked out in Dec?
You see, this guy has pulled this crap before...listen and learn..
Quote: free...Or..it could be part of the plan...kind of hard to ask the unions for concessions if the state of Wisc. had a surplus of 121+million dollars.
Free...it sure as hell didn't take this "conservative teabagger" long to burn through that surplus, did it?
Also, if the state is such dire financial condition, what Governor in their right mind would blow a surplus of 121 million?...that is pure nuts..crazy.
The Governor and his GOP/teabag buddies (legislature) got rid of the surplus so they could say, hey, the state of Wisconsin is broke.
mac I'm sure it was an honest mistake but you seem to have missed the post I made earlier where this was stated...
According to Robert Lang, the director of the Wisconsin Fiscal Bureau (the Legislature's nonpartisan budget office), the purported $121 million surplus does not account for $258 million in other other shortfalls, including money owed to the state of Minnesota. Lang writes in an email to TWS:
January 31, 2011. The condition statement is shown on page 2. It reflects a projected gross balance on June 30, 2011, of $121.4 million. This document was prepared prior to the introduction of the state's budget adjustment bill. In addition to the condition statement, the document identifies a pending payment under the Minnesota/Wisconsin Income Tax Reciprocity Program (page 3) and 2010-11 appropriation shortfalls (pages 3 and 4). The Minnesota/Wisconsin payment and the identified shortfalls total $258.1 million. These amounts are not reflected in the January 31 condition statement because legislative and executive action would be required between February 1, 2011, and June 30, 2011, to address them. If the entire $258.1 million was to be addressed before June 30, 2011, the gross general fund balance would be -$136.7 million. http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
I sure would like you to address this budget surplus that you keep going on about.. the one that the non-partisan budget office says didn't really exist... I shall await your response.. hopefully with something other than a piece by Madcow.
DC...in reality...that point, even "if it is true" is moot.
The public workers have agreed to concessions, but that is not good enough for Teabagger Walker and his Teabagger buddies.
Also, if Walker was going to have a shortfall...why spend the surplus?...that is pure crazy...it smells of politics and power.
Any way you cut it, this is a "tax" on public workers in Wisconsin...by the tax and spend GOP.
The GOP is taking the money from middle class workers while they hand it out to their rich GOP buddies. Wisconsin is balancing their budget on the backs of the working/middle class Americans.
Quote: DC...in reality...that point, even "if it is true" is moot.
The public workers have agreed to concessions, but that is not good enough for Teabagger Walker and his Teabagger buddies.
Also, if Walker was going to have a shortfall...why spend the surplus?...that is pure crazy...it smells of politics and power.
Any way you cut it, this is a "tax" on public workers in Wisconsin...by the tax and spend GOP.
The GOP is taking the money from middle class workers while they hand it out to their rich GOP buddies. Wisconsin is balancing their budget on the backs of the working/middle class Americans.
Some things never change in America..
It's so ironic......you calling out the state for "taking money from the middle class".............do you see the irony?
Let me help you: You continually rail about raising taxes. Then, you equate asking public employees to pay a bit more for their benefits as "raising taxes on the middle class".
When you want me to pay more in taxes, it's fine and good. But when it comes to these people paying more, you're against it???????????
And further - while you may think the term "teabagger" is neat and a subtle slam at people, when you use that term it only shows your lack of intelligence and tact, and really, sense. As if that were possible, I know.
But honestly, do you get a joy out of it, or what?
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