Quote: Pensions are a good deal, a great deal in many cases, There are examples where employees can retire at or near their ending salary by the time that they are 55. Add heath care, and a person is pretty much set.
Pensions are a good deal if you are the person that gets to work for 30 years and get paid for 60 years... if you are the state or the paying entity then they suck really bad.
Quote: It is no secret that pension and healthcare benefits are two items that state workers have retained through giving up on salary increases.
Unless they are making about half of what a private sector person is making, it's a bad deal for the state.
BINGO
As I have said, public sector jobs should always pay less money.
Benefits was always the selling factor.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: Unfortunately, a lot of them did but can't find work in their field.
Some people are making it sound as if teachers are the only ones with student loans. That's simply not true. Teachers have loans at the same rate as anyone that went to college.
To use the argument "teachers have student loans" as justification for anything is, well, not an argument.
Arch, I do get what you're saying. I wasn't saying that teachers need certain salaries just because they have loans. I was saying that a lot of people begrudge teachers for making a certain salary. My point was that anyone who has invested thousands in college has indeed made an investment, and I feel if that leads them to a higher salary than someone who didn't, so be it. Before anyone jumps on me for that, I don't think I HAVE to make more than anyone who did NOT go to college. If someone makes more than me, more power to them. It's just that I shouldn't feel bad if I make more than someone who didn't. If I don't like it, I can change professions or just deal with it. We all had a choice to do what we wanted to do (well I wanted to be a pro baseball player, but that's a different story!)
That being said, as teacher, I don't expect to be paid like a doctor. I just feel that I should be paid similarly to other teachers in similar economic areas to mine. I get that a doctor makes more than me, and I don't think he or she should make less just to come down to what I make so I can feel better.
When I was a kid, coal miners in my area were the big money makers, while teachers made a pittance. I don't recall any of those coal miners going to the union head and saying, "We don't need any more money or more benefits." Those same people didn't complain about what teachers made, either, because the teachers didn't make anything compared to them. Now it's the other way around, and the old coal miners expect teachers to just give and give when they never did.
I guess I'm on a tanget and felt I needed to defend teachers. The whole damn county is a mess these days. I'm off to get a drink!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do. -Derek Jeter
$144k still only puts then #12 on the list and that is only if all the other states stayed the same.
You are trying to keep the discussion of the real problem. benefits that they receive. and when you are talking about political positions vs public sector jobs. there are much more of them.
here is your line of debate.
1. walker needs to cut his pay. 2. that gets debated down then it's walker is highest paid. 3. all political offices are getting too much.
but the issue is public union benefits.
and when I get home I'll find more wage info for you.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Why do you even bother arguing and debating with mac?
In that black hole mac calls a brain, where knowledge goes to die a painful, yet silent death, argument and debate make no difference.
Plus, look at how mac changes the names of posters and even people in the news in a pathetic attempt to try and marginalize them. I often wonder if he really thnks that it really persuades people that his point is valid when he changes a person's name from Scott to "Scottie", for example? It is a childish device, and one that he uses to a point that looks amazingly like a cross between a 3 year old's temper tantrum and a high school bully. How anyone could be a bully on a message board is beyond me ..... but it seems like that is what mac tries to do. He tries to tear other people down so that his "side" will look stronger by comparison.
He also ignores any bad things done by Democrats/Liberals, yet talks down to other posters who acknowledge bad behavior on their side. He refuses to accept evidence presented by others, no matter what the source, yet expects that the most biased and slanted articles he can find should be accepted as gospel by everyone else. It is absolulely incredible, and a fascinating case study. The only reason that I haven't blocked mac is because i wonder just what he is going to come up with next.
He never fails to amaze and to make me laugh. (or shake my head in bewilderment that anyone could really believe everything he does.
mac was never a consrvative. Anyone who believes that is believing an ad campaign and not the evidence of mac's ramblings. The last Republican mac supported was Lincoln ... and that's only because he can find some writings on a liberal rag website telling him to do so.
You will never win a debate with mac, because he has sealed and vacuum packed that thing he calls a brain so that nothing gets in ... and, as is obvious from his posts .... nothing .. and I mean absolutely nothing ..... gets out.
Just make your points, and sit back and laugh at the stuff mac posts in reply. That's what I do ...... and it is often funnier, yet more tragic than anything TV has to offer.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: "]Roo...Walker would never work the number of hours this bus driver did...BTW, Walker gets paid the same regardless if he is spending half day golfing, jetting around the country (or ice fishing).
Kinda like the dem's that ran and hid?
Quote:
Side note...you do realize Walker has never worked a real job in his entire life? He is a career politician...
Does that make him more like the dems that ran and hid, or more like Obama?
Quote:
That bus driver is going to spend 12 to 16 hours a day driving that bus. Also, why doesn't the state hire another bus driver so they don't have to pay so much overtime?
As a person that that says he sticks up for the workers of this country, I would think you'd be happy a guy is getting - according to you - 4 t0 8 hours of overtime per day. Not?
You have no idea how dumb you sound, do you? You have no clue how two faced you are, do you?
Stupid is as stupid does, and you lead the way. The rest of us laugh at you.
Richard Strumka - haven't heard you say anything about him. Care to now?
Well here's an updated list. Wisconsin's Governor lies on the cusp of the upper tier of Governor Salaries. The big reason is a lot of governor's salaries between where Wisconsin was and is now were stagnant. Wisconsin's governor still has a lot of room before I'd call him one of the highest. #1-6 have salaries of $170k+
1. PA. $177,888 ~+$13k 2. Illinois $177,412(2010) ~+$22k 3. New Jersey $175,000 -- 4. Virginia $175,000 -- 5. California $173,987 ~-$39K 6. New York $170,050 ~-$9k 7. Washington $166,891 ~+$16k 8. Michigan $159,000 ~-$18k 9. Maryland $150,000($155k-3rd year $160k-4th year) -- 10. Connecticut $150,000 -- 11. OKla. $147K ~+$7k 12. Kentucky $145,885 ~+$8k 13. wisconsin $144,423 ~+$7k 14. Ohio $144,269(2010) -- 15. Vermont $142,542(2010) ~-$1k 16. Nevada $141,000 -- 17. Mass $140K --
But then again, this has nothing to do with what the problem is, but rather just an attempt to shift focus elsewhere other than on the problem.
If you want to correlate it to the problem here you go, and I'll use your arguments on why teachers should be paid more.
A lot of governor can make more in the private sector than as governor, we should pay them more, not less. President Obama can make millions more than the $400k than he receives as President, we should pay him more.
Do you know what they underlying reasons why all these people hold these public offices? Because, they wanted to hold them, regardless if they took a paycut.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
Quote: Well here's an updated list. Wisconsin's Governor lies on the cusp of the upper tier of Governor Salaries. The big reason is a lot of governor's salaries between where Wisconsin was and is now were stagnant. Wisconsin's governor still has a lot of room before I'd call him one of the highest. #1-6 have salaries of $170k+
1. PA. $177,888 ~+$13k 2. Illinois $177,412(2010) ~+$22k 3. New Jersey $175,000 -- 4. Virginia $175,000 -- 5. California $173,987 ~-$39K 6. New York $170,050 ~-$9k 7. Washington $166,891 ~+$16k 8. Michigan $159,000 ~-$18k 9. Maryland $150,000($155k-3rd year $160k-4th year) -- 10. Connecticut $150,000 -- 11. OKla. $147K ~+$7k 12. Kentucky $145,885 ~+$8k 13. wisconsin $144,423 ~+$7k 14. Ohio $144,269(2010) -- 15. Vermont $142,542(2010) ~-$1k 16. Nevada $141,000 -- 17. Mass $140K --
1. walker needs to cut his pay. 2. that gets debated down then it's walker is highest paid. 3. all political offices are getting too much.
Tux..#1...Yes, Walker needs to cut his pay and benefits..but I said several times, every state worker, union and non union, highest paid (Scottie Walker) down to the lowest paid, need to have their wages and benefits cut the same percentage necessary to fix Wisconsin's budget crisis.
I call this method of balancing state budgets...the SHARED SACRIFICE METHOD...why is this so hard for the TP RWers to understand?
#2...tux, SHARED SACRIFICE has "not" been debated down. RWers just seem to want to ignore such simple solution..wonder why?
#3..Again, I have and continue to say, ALL STATE WORKERS...need to have their wages and benefits cut until the budget is balanced.
On the issue of lil Scottie Walker's pay compared to other governors...I said Scottie is one of the higher paid governors in the USA...his wage is higher than the average wage for Governors...his updated wage now ranks him at 13th highest wage of 50 state Governors. His $144,423 annual salary does not include all the expensive benefits/privileges he does not have to pay for either.
Quote: What sacrifices has Obama made to help balance the federal budget?
He's only put us an extra $4 or $5 trillion further in debt instead of an additional $10 trillion or more?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Yes, Walker needs to cut his pay and benefits..but I said several times, every state worker, union and non union, highest paid (Scottie Walker) down to the lowest paid, need to have their wages and benefits cut the same percentage necessary to fix Wisconsin's budget crisis.
Hey, I'm all for this. I think your friends that are the middle class would hate this. Increasing the money they have to pay for benefits and taking wage cuts of 10% (I think that is a figure you used) would hit them even harder on them than what the Governor proposed.
Quote: Well here's an updated list. Wisconsin's Governor lies on the cusp of the upper tier of Governor Salaries. The big reason is a lot of governor's salaries between where Wisconsin was and is now were stagnant. Wisconsin's governor still has a lot of room before I'd call him one of the highest. #1-6 have salaries of $170k+
1. PA. $177,888 ~+$13k 2. Illinois $177,412(2010) ~+$22k 3. New Jersey $175,000 -- 4. Virginia $175,000 -- 5. California $173,987 ~-$39K 6. New York $170,050 ~-$9k 7. Washington $166,891 ~+$16k 8. Michigan $159,000 ~-$18k 9. Maryland $150,000($155k-3rd year $160k-4th year) -- 10. Connecticut $150,000 -- 11. OKla. $147K ~+$7k 12. Kentucky $145,885 ~+$8k 13. wisconsin $144,423 ~+$7k 14. Ohio $144,269(2010) -- 15. Vermont $142,542(2010) ~-$1k 16. Nevada $141,000 -- 17. Mass $140K --
tux...got a link to this info?
All this info was gathered via "{state name} governor salary 2011" on google. There is no decent site that lists them all.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
1. walker needs to cut his pay. 2. that gets debated down then it's walker is highest paid. 3. all political offices are getting too much.
Tux..#1...Yes, Walker needs to cut his pay and benefits..but I said several times, every state worker, union and non union, highest paid (Scottie Walker) down to the lowest paid, need to have their wages and benefits cut the same percentage necessary to fix Wisconsin's budget crisis.
I call this method of balancing state budgets...the SHARED SACRIFICE METHOD...why is this so hard for the TP RWers to understand?
#2...tux, SHARED SACRIFICE has "not" been debated down. RWers just seem to want to ignore such simple solution..wonder why?
#3..Again, I have and continue to say, ALL STATE WORKERS...need to have their wages and benefits cut until the budget is balanced.
On the issue of lil Scottie Walker's pay compared to other governors...I said Scottie is one of the higher paid governors in the USA...his wage is higher than the average wage for Governors...his updated wage now ranks him at 13th highest wage of 50 state Governors. His $144,423 annual salary does not include all the expensive benefits/privileges he does not have to pay for either.
You keep on acting as if other states do not give their governors perks as well. Some get even better privileges. And just because he's paid more than average does not equate him to being one of the highest paid either. The lowest paid is $70,000. You are just trying to paint Walker in a certain light to discredit him. That is ALL you are doing.. You are using the argument of BUT BUT BUT see he isn't doing anything to solve the problem because he's unwilling to do anything about his pay. The problem is that what he makes or what he doesn't make isn't the issue. $144k or even $170K, which is the amount the highest paid governors receive, will do nothing but be an empty gesture towards balancing the budget. In fact even if he said that he'll take no salary, you'd only discredit him further by saying that he's only doing it to look better or that he still shouldn't be trying to go through with what he is doing. IT WILL DO NOTHING. Perhaps you should put blame on those who have raised his salary. He didn't dictate his own salary. It was in place before he got into office.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
tux...for a state that is in such dire financial trouble as Wisconsin, it is obvious that one of the first moves needed is a SHARED SACRIFICE approach rather than Walkers approach of just targeting middle class workers.
Why discriminate against middle class "state workers" and balance the state's budget on the backs of those who make a fraction of Walkers pay, benefits and perks?
Times are a changing and it is time for SHARED SACRIFICE in every state that has a budget issue.
SHARED SACRIFICE - reducing the pay and benefits (and perks) of every state worker from the highest paid state worker down to the lowest paid.
....pay, benefits and perks should be reduced by a percentage necessary to bring the states budget back in balance, for as long as needed.
Why should rich Governor's like Walker be allowed to balance Wisconsin's budget on the backs of middle and working class state workers only.
If Walker won't do it, the citizens of Wisconsin should see that the issue is on the ballot ASAP, so all the citizens of the state can vote for or against SHARED SACRIFICE.
If he is changing the pension and health care plans for all state employees (with fire fighter and police exempted) doesn't that mean all higher earning state workers are sacrificing as well?
Obama has put us into sure horrific and dire financial straits that it makes Wisconsin look like a 3 year old kid lost a penny on the way to the store b comparison.
If Chief Executives are going to "give back", then Obama should give back his entire salary, and all of his assets as well. His Presidency has been a disaster, and ... God help us ...... his term is only half over with. Who knows what other financially ruinous policies he'll propose by then.
We already saw his commitment to financial responsibility with the absolute joke of a budget that he submitted .... and that made even other Democrats damn near vomit.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: mac, when can we expect democrats to make a sacrifice?
When rich Republicans like Walker make the same sacrifice..
Are you going to answer my question? In case you missed it I want to know since the changes in benefits and pensions affect all state workers (minus fighter fighters and police) doesn't that include the ricck guys like Scottie?
I do not agree with taking away collective bargaining rights is the middle of a contract. I can sympathize with the vast majority of the protesters...Unfortunately for the rest of the protesters this is going to taint the protesters as a whole.
As of now we have no idea where these protesters are from. My guess is that they are typical SEIU thugs that are bused in. The thing is that the majority of protesters are reported to be teachers so I think that most people assume these people are teachers.
If you lived in Wisconsin would you want these people teaching your kids?
Wisconsin Protests Draw More Than 70,000 In Largest Rally Yet
02/28/11
MADISON, Wis. — Chanting pro-union slogans and carrying signs declaring "We are all Wisconsin," protesters turned out in cities nationwide to support thousands of public workers who've set up camp at the Wisconsin Capitol to fight Republican-backed legislation aimed at weakening unions.
Union supporters organized rallies from New York to Los Angeles in a show of solidarity Saturday as the demonstration in Madison entered its 12th straight day and attracted its largest crowd yet: more than 70,000 people. Hundreds banged on drums and screamed into bullhorns inside the Capitol as others braved frigid weather and snow during the massive rally that flooded into nearby streets.
"I want to thank you for coming out here today to exercise those pesky First Amendment rights," actor Bradley Whitford, who starred in television's "The West Wing," said as he rallied his hometown crowd. "This governor has to understand Wisconsin is a stubborn constituency. We fish through ice!"
Republican Gov. Scott Walker has introduced a bill that includes stripping almost all public workers of their right to collectively bargain on benefits and work conditions. Walker has said the bill would help close a projected $3.6 billion deficit in the 2011-13 budget, and argues that freeing local governments from collective bargaining would give them flexibility amid deep budget cuts.
The bill has sent Democrats and unions into an outrage. They see it as trampling on workers' rights and as an attempt to destroy Democrats' strongest campaign allies.
Some protestors have even been sleeping in the Wisconsin Capitol. Police planned to let protesters stay overnight Saturday into Sunday but are expected to finally close the building Sunday afternoon for cleaning.
"Wisconsin is opening up people's eyes a little bit," said Jay Van Loenen, a teacher who attended a rally in Denver that attracted about 1,000 people. "So I think that the move is to try to get people more involved in their unions and create a stronger front so that if something happens here, we are prepared."
Quote: Yes I would. Very much. I don't know where the Fox reporter is from either. POintless question.
Why is it pointless? These are Wisconsin workers (many of who are teachers) protesting in their home state? If I was a teacher in the state I surely wouldn't want them to be mistaken for me. In my opinion most of the state residents see this stuff and think it is their teachers.
I have no idea what that video clip is supposed to do for your argument or what it has to do with Fox lying.. or what the moron is talking about with Bill O'Reilly.... it just looks like a guy in the field giving a report...
mac as far back as our founding fathers, wise people understood that once the government set up a means by which they could use public funds to support a segment of the population that we were done.. not immediately, but evenutally.. because the politicians would use that vehicle to essentially buy the votes of those they supported.. we have seen this grow significantly over the last 70 years..
The other thing, that even FDR understood was that you cannot give collective bargaining rights to government workers because they are bargaining with the peoples money but the people are not represented.. the unions are bargaining with the politicians... so as a politician, if you want to ensure the vote of everybody involved with the unions, then you give them a sweetheart deal.. the unions get a sweet deal, the politicians that sign it guarantee the voting support of a bunch of people as well as the campaign contributions of the unions, and the people, who are unrepresented in the process, get the bill... sounds like a perfect system for everybody.... except the people..
The other thing, that even FDR understood was that you cannot give collective bargaining rights to government workers because they are bargaining with the peoples money but the people are not represented.. the unions are bargaining with the politicians... so as a politician, if you want to ensure the vote of everybody involved with the unions, then you give them a sweetheart deal.. the unions get a sweet deal, the politicians that sign it guarantee the voting support of a bunch of people as well as the campaign contributions of the unions, and the people, who are unrepresented in the process, get the bill... sounds like a perfect system for everybody.... except the people..
You are talking to someone who probably thinks Corporates influencing politics is pure evil while when Public Unions do it, it's acceptable and recommended. Problem is that they are both bad and more influence should be given to the public.
Public Union + Politics = taxpayers lose
Corporations + Politics = taxpayers lose.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
This is an interesting video that lays out what is behind this movement to destroy unions. At the 2:23 mark and the 3:37 mark, see if you recognize anything...
Sarah Palin tweets is a great source of information.
But once again Mac, you, and the media, seem to think this is about pay cuts. Yet no one has been asked to take a pay cut, they are being asked to partially pay for their benefits, JUST LIKE ALL THE TAX PAYERS THAT ARE PAYING THEIR SALARIES.
See, while the state union workers in Wisconsin are moaning and groaning, they are ignoring the plight of their fellow state citizens who for years have seen their taxes rise to pay for these union benefit. Now times are tough and those same citizens are struggling to pay for all this, and the union workers are being selfish and only thinking about themselves. None of whom have probably lost a job, taken a cut in pay, lost benefits or anything. It's been life as usual for them for the last 2-3 years.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
Koch Industries Front Group Americans for Prosperity Launches Ad to Support Walker's Union Busting
As ThinkProgress has reported, the global conglomerate Koch Industries not only helped elect Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI), but is the leading force orchestrating his union-busting campaign. Koch gave Walker over $43,000 in direct donations and its allies aired millions of dollars worth of attack ads against his Democratic opponent. Then, Koch political operatives pressured Walker to crush labor unions as one of his first priorities.
Tim Phillips, a former lobbying partner to Jack Abramoff and current president of Americans for Prosperity, a front financed by David Koch, told the New York Times that Koch operatives “had worked behind the scenes to try to encourage a union showdown.” A Koch-financed front group, the American Legislative Exchange Council, has prepped Wisconsin GOP lawmakers with anti-labor legislative ideas.
Today, the Koch group Americans for Prosperity announced that it will air an ad smearing the protesters in Madison and calling on the state to support Walker’s power grab. As we noted on Friday, Koch has demanded that collective bargaining rights be curtailed for both private and public sector unions, a step beyond Walker’s already extreme move.
The ad disparages the pro-labor protesters for allegedly bringing in “out of state political protesters.” In fact, the small pro-Walker demonstration orchestrated by Koch operatives last Saturday included a number of out of state conservative activists, including Herman Cain (from Georgia), Jim Hoft (from Missouri), and Phillips (from Virginia).
AFP NARRATOR: Democratic legislators don’t even have the guts to show up for their jobs, hiding out in other states. President Obama backs the union bosses and floods the state with out of state political protesters. Governor Walker has the courage to do what’s right for Wisconsin. Stand with Walker.
Last year, at a Koch-organized fundraising meeting in Colorado attended by fellow right-wing billionaires like Steve Schwarzman and Phil Anschutz, attendees discussed strategies for taking down the labor movement. As MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow has explained, the right’s national anti-union campaign has little to do with budget deficits. Instead, it is about defunding the progressive movement and weakening Democrats in the longterm.
Moreover, Koch’s political activism on behalf of Walker is also a strategy for increasing its profit margin. Koch Industries has a large set of businesses within Wisconsin, including a network of oil pipelines, paper plants, and coal companies. The Walker administration is signaling a very Koch-friendly approach in targeting environmental regulations and going on record with fierce opposition to clean energy policies.
To take full advantage of such a friendly local government, Koch Industries quietly expanded its lobbying operation in the state. Koch has a new government affairs office in Madison, and according to reporter Judith Davidoff, recently registered seven full time lobbyists to work with the Republican-led government in Wisconsin.
UPDATE It appears the AFP ad has been taken down. The YouTube video now displays only a black screen with words, "This video has been removed by the user," and the ad is seemingly vanished from AFP's website. It's missing from the ad's announcement as well.
web page ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The ad buy comes from the Koch Bros, to front groups like Americans for Prosperity to websites such "DawgTalkers"...hmmm, interesting...
Lol. Here we go again...using radical left propoganda to make his point. This is why mac never identifies his sources in his links. This time we have an article from "Truth-out.org" (a non-profit progressive news organization) that uses these qualifiers for their posted info:
As ThinkProgress has reported...,
As MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow has explained,...
according to reporter Judith Davidoff....(Judith is a reporter for "The Cap Times....Your Progressive Voice").
If someone were to post a story from "Right Wing News" that referenced Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Michael Savage, they'd be laughed off the forum.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png)
I guess Fox News isn't always against Democrats and the common man.
