DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavaliers/NBA cont.

Agreed, they've been my favorite team to watch all season.

I'd like to point at that last night's game helped get us out of the cellar in efficiency stats.

#29 in Def Eff
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff

#30 in Off Eff still, but only 0.1 away from Mil and 0.3 away from Wash
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/order/true

And, of course, #3 in attendance
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

Okay, so really #12 if you go by %-full
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/homePct

But, still #30 in road attendance (noone else wants to see the Cavs)
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance/_/sort/awayAvg

Tonight was a perfect game ....... play close against a playoff contender ... lose at the buzzer ..... keep in position for those all important ping pong balls.

I think the problem is that people are looking for the "next Lebron James" ..... and there probably isnt going to be one any more than there has been a "next Michael Jordan".

Teams have won championships without either guy every year since Jordan retired ..... and if we get the right couple of guys, and a break here or there .... and we could be right back into contention.

not looking for the next LeBron, though if he falls in our lap, then I'm not going to complain

we're just trying to level-set here. to get into "contention" it's going to take years. Durant is an ELITE player and the OKC are just starting to get into contention now (they still haven't won a playoff series). Rose is an ELITE player and the Bulls are in contention for the first time this year.

The Hawks, Trailblazers and Rockets are 'teams' first, stars second. While extremely competitive, they haven't been contenders. One of the reasons I'm pulling for Portland this year in the playoffs (especially since they picked up one of my favorite non-Cavs in Gerald Wallace).

I think it's more realistic to think that if we draft well, we could be like one of those 3 teams in 2012/13 not 2011/12 (next year I would hope to be more on the level of the Bobcats of a team that fights hard and has some talent but not quite enough to pose a real threat in the playoffs. we need to draft well for that to happen). Unless you get a transcendant star like a LeBron, it's a process in basketball just like any other sport when rebuilding.

I want "the next Kobe" or "the next Tim Duncan"... "the next LeBron" will be someone just better than Vince Carter.

Listening to Rizzo yesterday, Hammer finally posed a good question - what if we've already seen the best of LeBron James? Dude's 8 years in with no rings... it's clear he never played with an All Star cast, but it's also clear he never played with a complete garbage fire roster either - you'd think he would stumble into a ring by accident by now.

Perhaps he's a great player - but overrated?

I think Duncan may be the most underrated player of my lifetime, I want the next him.

you are possibly correct, but good coaches tend to be on good teams in the NBA (Byron Scott not withstanding ). Doc Rivers was largely considered a bad coach until McHale gifted the Celtics Garnett.

to see if we were overrated / underrated I always try to see how many times we beat a team unexpectedly and how many times we lost to a team unexpectedly.

'06 beat Wizards (even), lost to Pistons (underdog)
'07 beat Wizards (favorite), beat Nets (favorite), beat Pistons (underdog), lost to Spurs (underdog)
'08 beat Wizards (favorite), lost to Celtics (either even or favorite)
'09 beat Pistons (favorite), beat Hawks (favorite), lost to Magic (favorite)
'10 beat Bulls (favorite), lost to Celtics (favorite)

So, you definitely have a point that we lost as a favorite more than we should have. Really, each of the last 3 playoff seasons we were favored and came up short (the '08 Celtics many thought that they hadn't been together long enough and it was right on the back of the '07 season where LeBron carried the Cavs to the Finals).

true, but honestly through my own eyes, the only time this team ever underachieved was last year in the boston series, and really that was just one game.

other than that, they were always prepared to play.

when they lost to the pistons, they were inexperienced but actually grew unbelievably in that series.

the next year they lost in the finals to the spurs. i don't think anything more needs to be said. they were like a fish out of water in that series. they had no chance.

after that they lost to the celtics, who were highly motivated (B3's first year together) the cavs had made that huge trade and kinda stumbled into the playoffs. but i don't see that loss as underachieving. boston ended up winning the whole thing.

with the magic. i believe was the beginning of the end. that series did something to lebron and was the spark that eventually led to the decision. the cavs had nobody on their roster to deal with dwight howard, and were chasing the shooters of the magic all series. on the other hand, you can look at that giant lead they had in game 1, and they definitely underachieved in blowing that lead at home in the first game of a conference final.

last year in boston was obvious to anyone who watched. we'll never know what really happened but mike brown's guys never played that bad, lebron never played that bad, the whole thing will always be one of those conversations where everyone has their own hardcore take.

while i agree that good coaching can be a product of good players i also think it can be the other way around. just look at the bulls. either thibideau is the greatest coach ever, or vinny d was just that bad. i mean they are gonna go from being an 8seed to being a 1seed through one summer where the east pretty much stayed the same with cleveland going down and miami going up. (magic a little worse, knicks a little better, etc) and the only change the bulls went through was getting boozer who has missed time and also has been sat in big moments because he's horrible on defense. and kyle korver, who's kyle korver.

well, see what Vinny D is doing with a talented roster in LA and you may have that answer

(the Bulls getting a deeper bench, a scoring big man and the youngsters all taking a step forward helps too) --- only the last one can be credited to the coach

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as for underachieve. I think the Cavs definitely underachieved their capability in the '09 Magic series too. Yes, they were prepared to play and played hard, but that's not the same. They had so many guys who just didn't make the crucial play or didn't do the right thing when it was needed the most (Ben Wallace guarding Rashard at the end of a game and Delonte getting his hands on what would have been a game-ending rebound but letting it slip away are the 2 that come to mind right away).

the '08 against the Celtics, we were considered mild favorites by most, but the fact it came down to a LeBron vs. Pierce battle in game7 and we barely lost out (because of PJ Brown of all people) means I don't really consider that one underachieving.

the effort was there in '08, that team was balls tough on defense. that stopped the next year. we never really saw that defensive effort again in the playoffs. it was always offense. part of that was bringing in mo williams who was more offense, but the other thing was lebron refusing to play in the post (just like he refuses to now!) and shrugging off what mike brown wanted them to do.

i do think that lebron will actually help us down the line because the next great player the cavs get won't get the same treatment lbj got, and he certainly won't be shrugging off byron scott, not with gilbert firmly in his corner. good luck with that.

yeah, Ferry started going all offense in his moves. sort of like what Boston has been doing lately. never understood that. you can cover up one and maybe two defensive liabilities but when you have 3 or 4 on the court you are asking for trouble.

i think his thinking was that mike brown could make a good offensive player play good defense. probably a lot easier than taking a defensive player and getting him to score points and make the right passes, etc.

i can't fault ferry for anything during his time there. i thought he pressed all the right buttons. he did a really nice job with that roster, and always had his hands tied with previous contracts and the fact that cleveland can't really sign big time guys.

seems like it has rubbed off on chris grant. i really like this guy. i feel good about the cavs having all these valuable picks coming up with him in control. i feel like he's gonna make the right moves. the baron davis thing was genius.

I'm not totally down on Ferry, I just think we went a little too far with the offensive players. we needed some more defense and it seemed like we never targeted those guys (you might be right in that he just trusted Mike Brown's defensive schemes, maybe too much in that respect)

I agree that the philosophy is sound overall, specifically the drafting philosophy. Ferry was always about drafting the exact opposite type of player that he was when he played. In the first round, he always targeted the super-athletic guy who has shown a propensity for being able to play on both ends of the court (S.Brown, Hickson, Eyenga).

And yeah, the Baron trade was great. Who knew that he would play so hard and be a mentor for a losing team? I thought he was going to be dead-weight for sure. Hopefully, we choose wisely with the pick.

i still think there is room and time for baron to do that, but his attitude is great right now. i think being away from a town like LA can help too. not so many distractions. plus it seems like all the athletes in this town are tight knit. you see browns players supporting the cavs. they talk on twitter all the time. seems like everyone pulls for everyone (couldn't say that for lbj)

Maybe Baron seems to do well in cities where the fans get behind him? Golden State is known to have a great fan atmosphere, and their playoff run a few years ago was one of the more electric displays in basketball. The Clippers and New Orleans aren't as enthusiastic.

Adande brought up something I never realized

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Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki have never faced each other in a playoff series.

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Sure, probably alot to do with the Mavs choking in the playoffs and losing way earlier than their seed predicates (only team to have lost as BOTH the #1 seed and #2 seed in the playoffs....to the Warriors and Spurs respectively)

However, it's still amazing as both teams have been playoff staples the past 10 years and with varying seeds. This is now a matchup that I want to see happen.

Thunder v. Lakers would also be a great series. Also, the 76ers v. Heat would be fun to watch.

as long as nobody is playing the Heat in the finals.

Right now, the series I am rooting to get to watch.

1st round
Atlanta v. Magic
Thunder v. Nuggets
Blazers v. Mavs

2nd round
Heat v. Celtics
Spurs v. Thunder
Lakers v. Blazers (or Mavs but Portland is the team I am cheering for the most this postseason)

3rd round
Magic v. Celtics

Finals
Magic v. Spurs/Thunder

Ok, somewhat realistic but really a dream scenario time

we complete the rumored Rip trade before the draft for the Piston's 1st rounder (#7). they get nothing but the TPE and out from his contract.

we land a combination of PG Irving(#1/2), C Kanter(#7), SF Veseley(#8) with those 3 lottery picks and with #31 get either SG/SF Honeycutt (less likely) or C Lucas Nogueira (more likely) and stash #54 overseas with a European player.

then, the 2011/12 season is locked out. and we get another top4 pick from that draft.

we can then auction off Jamison and Gibson's expiring deals (and have Graham to even out values if needed). Baron would be a year away from the same.

Long term guys we'd then have:

PG: Irving, Sessions (only as energy-backup)
SG: Eyenga, Honeycutt?
SF: Veseley
PF: Hickson
C: Kanter, AV

Our 2012 #1 pick then would best be at SG or SF unless there's an elite guy we feel obligated to pick.

Now, that's an exciting, fun athletic team that would provide hope for the future

Why don't we just trade Boobie and Davis for Kevin Durant if we want to go all-in on the unrealistic dream scenerios.

i want 2-way players. i'm tired of having guys who are good at one thing and horrible at the rest (see ben wallace, see wally z, sasha, mo williams, eric snow. etc..) some of those guys were key parts to deep playoff runs but the nba is about having those 2 way guys.you will never be able to start 4 or 5, probably not even 3, but if you can have 2 guys who can lock down and also get theirs, you can cover up other areas where you aren't as strong, and you can allow for some of those 1 or 2 trick ponies.

and i like kemba walker, but he's too small. i don't care if he's AI 2.0. i want big strong physical players. great college player, 6th man in the nba.

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i don't care if he's AI 2.0.

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Huh?

If a player was AI 2.0 you should want him on your team no matter what.

I don't think Walker is that, but if he was, you want him.

I agree. And that largely means drafting very athletic scorers who are willing to listen to a coach.

It's why Alec Burc's is on my radar as a possible PG/SG at the Clippers spot. Also Kawhi Leonard (though he obviously disappointed in the tourney)

Veseley is a strange breed where according to all reports (haven't gotten to see him play), he has all the athleticism to defend and does a good job on the stronger guys, but the Euro teams put super-quick guys on him and he just can't handle them.

My mind is officially blown.

leading the league in steals is nice, but like you said, the guy got taken advantage of with his size.

i want big strong physical guards. remember, we're in a division with derek rose.

your mind can be blown or you can just disagree with me, your call.

AI did get that team to the finals but what else did he ever do? they never sniffed them again. they were really never relevant again. at least with the cavs, after their finals run they were in the mix a few times. also, i think larry brown got everything he could out of that team.

like i said, if i am building a champion, i'm not looking for an AI type of guard, an undersized 1 who takes too many shots.

sorry. i just don't. i want rings, not scoring titles for my best player.

During most of Iverson's tenure with the 76ers the GM was Billy King. King is one of the worst GM's in the history of the NBA.

Look at the team the Iverson played with in the finals. Who is the second best player? Eric Snow? Mutumbo? Aaron McKie? Theo Ratliff? They were awful and Iverson carried them.

Not only that, but he ran into the Laker juggernaut in the peak of their powers.

With the guys around him Iverson could have won a title. But he didn't have the right guys. So people just think of him as a great scorer.

Sounds like a familiar tale...