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Quote:
A Congressional hearing on Thursday addressing homegrown Islamic terrorism offered divergent portraits of Muslims in America: one as law-abiding people who are unfairly made targets, the other as a community ignoring radicalization among its own and failing to confront what one witness called “this cancer that’s within.”
Attacked by critics as a revival of McCarthyism, and lauded by supporters as a courageous stand against political correctness, the hearing — four hours of sometimes emotional testimony — revealed a deep partisan split in lawmakers’ approach to terror investigations and their views on the role of mosques in America.
Republicans drilled down with questions about whether Muslims cooperate with law enforcement, and singled out a Washington-based advocacy group, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, casting it as an ally of terrorists. Representative Peter T. King, a Long Island Republican and the Homeland Security Committee chairman who convened the session, declared it a “discredited group,” an assertion the organization’s executive director, Nihad Awad, dismissed as “political theater.”
Democrats sought to put the spotlight on the lone law enforcement witness, Sheriff Leroy D. Baca of Los Angeles, who testified that Muslims do cooperate, and they cited a Duke University study that found that 40 percent of foiled domestic terror plots had been thwarted with the help of Muslims.
“A Muslim is on the panel! A Muslim has testified!” thundered Representative Sheila Jackson Lee, the Texas Democrat, referring to two of the witnesses — a line that brought a chorus of supportive guffaws from those watching on television in an overflow hearing room. She went on, “And so I question, where are the uncooperative Muslims?”
The hearing room was tiny and crowded, and the drama restrained: at the slightest hint of audience reaction, Mr. King warned that outbursts would not be tolerated. But the hallways bustled with a sideshow of roaming television cameramen and onlookers, from women dressed in hijabs to a couple of retirees holding a sign that said “Respect all Religion — Live With Love.”
Representative Keith Ellison, a Minnesota Democrat who is Muslim, wept as he recounted the story of Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old volunteer medical technician who rushed to help when the World Trade Center was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001 — and died in the building’s collapse. Mr. Ellison barely finished his testimony, breaking down as he described how, when Mr. Hamdani disappeared, his religion fueled suspicions that he was part of the plot — rumors put to rest by the discovery of his remains.
But two other witnesses — Melvin Bledsoe, a Memphis businessman, and Abdirizak Bihi of the Somali Education and Social Advocacy Center in Minneapolis — offered their own compelling narratives of how their relatives embraced Islamic extremism.
“Our children are in danger,” Mr. Bledsoe warned, as he told lawmakers of how his son Carlos had converted to Islam in college and traveled to Yemen, where he was “trained and programmed” to kill. After returning to the United States, he opened fire on a military recruiting center in Little Rock, Ark., killing one soldier and wounding another. Mr. Bihi’s nephew was recruited to Somalia, where he died.
“It seems to me that Americans are sitting around doing nothing about radical extremists,” Mr. Bledsoe said, adding, “This is a big elephant in the room.”
For Mr. King, who convened the hearings after months of planning — and amid intense criticism — the session offered a public forum, as well as a chance to defend himself against religious leaders, civil right advocates and others who have been pressing him to broaden the scope of the effort. He has repeatedly said he would not, and on Thursday, he was defiant.
“I’m more convinced than ever that they were appropriate,” he told reporters afterward, adding that he hoped the session would help do away with the “mindless hysteria” of the news media and his detractors.
Among those detractors was Representative Loretta Sanchez, a Democrat from California, who went after the Republicans’ star witness, Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, a Phoenix doctor who, as founder of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy, has been deeply critical of fellow Muslims.
It was Dr. Jasser who used the cancer analogy; in his testimony, he complained that too often, Muslim leaders counsel Muslims against speaking to law enforcement officials without a lawyer.
“The right to have an attorney present when speaking to law enforcement is a specific principle of American civil liberty,” Ms. Sanchez said sharply, adding, “So by what legal principle do you assert that any minority in America should waive that American principle?”
Dr. Jasser, who described himself as a devout Muslim, sought to draw a distinction between spiritual Islam and what he called “political Islam” — the notion that a government or country should be run according to principles of Islamic law. He said there was an inherent contradiction between that notion and the American tenet of separation of church and state.
But some of his declarations — like his assertion that American Muslim organizations are “circling the wagons” — rankled fellow Muslims, who were also irritated that his nascent organization got the spotlight when better established Muslim groups were passed over.
“We’ve been working on this issue even prior to 9/11,” said Haris Tarin, director of the Washington office for the Muslim Public Affairs Council. Mr. Tarin said his group’s leaders recently participated in a seminar for law enforcement agents on countering Islamic radicalization — a point Sheriff Baca brought up.
If Dr. Jasser was the Republicans’ star, the sheriff was the Democrats’. He said Muslims often cooperated as individuals, “without the cover” of organizations. “The truth is that Muslims are just as independent, just as feisty, just as concerned about safety,” he said. “They certainly don’t want their homes or their mosques blown up.”
Before the proceedings ended, a group of Christian, Jewish and Muslim religious leaders gathered in a room downstairs to denounce them as counterproductive for singling out Muslims. But at the same time, they said they were pleased with testimony that focused on how much Muslims do cooperate with law enforcement.
“We do believe there’s an element targeting our youth and our communities,” said Imam Mohamed Hagmagid Ali, president of the Islamic Society of North America. “But we are saying Muslims are really engaged in this fight.”
Mr. King intends to hold additional sessions over the next year and a half, he said, on issues including radicalization in American prisons and the flow of foreign money into mosques.
As Thursday’s session wound down, one attendee, Laurie Jagh, who works for a nonprofit group and lives in the Northern Virginia suburbs, home to a large Muslim population, said she was left with one overarching impression.
“I was struck,” she said, “by how divided we are as a country.”
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Surprised this hasn't been posted yet. These hearings are the 21st century version of McCarthyism. Demonizing 1.5 billion people based on the action of the few. Furthermore, in this entire hearing, they brought forth essentially no experts on terrorism, radicalization or Islam. If you want to have the conversation about terrorism, have it, but not like this. This is such a witchhunt that I don't see how any logicial can person can look at it and say it's not.
The cherry on top? The "radicalization" (i.e. witchhunt on Islam) hearings are being led by none other than Peter King, who claims that the MAJORITY of American mosques are radicalized, offers ZERO supporting evidence and is quite possibly the strongest voice of support for the IRA (which just happens to be an actual terrorist organization). When asked about the IRA, King said, “I understand why people who are misinformed might see a parallel. The fact is, the I.R.A. never attacked the United States. And my loyalty is to the United States.” The only person misinformed here is Peter King. I guess we should update the definition of terrorism to only include American victims.
I'm quite saddened that we have come to this, painting an entire religion on the actions of the few. We don't see calls for checking out Christian radicalization (Timothy McVeigh, Army of God, segments of both the Christian Identity and Christian Patriot movements, and the Hutaree Militia just to name a few). Why? Because it's illogical to hold a religion responsible for the actions of those who do not represent the overwhelming majority of those who practice the religion (be it Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, or any other). Like I said if you want to have the discussion about terrorism and radicalization in general, do so. But this is a witchhunt. A radicalization hearing led by a supporter of a terrorist organization (IRA). There's your tax dollars at work folks.
/rant
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Legend
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I know this is a very serious issue, but I was very confused why one of SI's sports writers was covering this.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Dawg Talker
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No, we don't see many calls criticizing the radicals of specific religions (Christian I should say), but we do see generalizations all across the board. And that includes many on this board.
Democrats are left wing nut jobs that fight for unions, pro-choice movements, higher taxes across the board, and are socialists.
Republicans are right wing nut jobs that fight for big business, pro-life movements, lower taxes across the board and are facists.
Green Party candidates are just hippies that want to smoke plants and rocks and do away with a society of rules and regulations.
Jocks are guys that gel their hair up and are dumb in school, Nerds don't have girlfriends and play video games all day.
Mexicans and Hispanics love tacos and margaritas, Blacks love fried chicken, Whites love mashed potatoes and roasts, Irish love beer, Russians and Other Eastern Europeans drink heavy liquor.
People from the south wave confederate flags, people from the mountains intermarry with their cousins, people from the cities are in gangs, and people from the suburbs drive "soccer mom" vans and raise their kids in the rules from the 1950's era.
I hope that I didn't offend anyone by stating / citing some all to common stereotypes. But the fact is we make a LOT of generalizations and assumptions in this country about who someone IS based upon where they come from, what their beliefs are, and what they look like.
If you don't believe me, why do you think 99% of all companies include the phrase somewhere (if not multiple places) on their job applications, manuals, websites, (etc.)....
"We do not discriminate based upon the basis of sex, religion, creed, color .... "
You didn't see that 10 or 20 years ago ... It's just that too many people make assumptions.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Dawg Talker
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I was PRO Muslim rights until I saw the documentary "The Third Jihad" by a Muslim doctor in Arizona.
By things expressly written in the Koran, they will always be anti-America until we beat our wives, kill (yes, kill) anyone who is not Muslim and does not view Allah as the one true God, and install a Sharia form of government.
Trust me, I feel like an idiot for saying that. But my opinion of the issue has been altered.
Also, with the Muslim birth rate, we might all become victims sooner rather than later
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Every holy book has extreme viewpoints in it. I don't need to bring up the controversial/radical passages of the Bible or any other holy book. Over the last 1400 - 2000 years, our interpration of the Holy Word has changed. The Bible was used to defend things such as Crusades and slavery, so no religion is without fault (I say this as a Christian). But to believe that the intent of Muslims is to have all Americans "beat our wives, kill (yes, kill) anyone who is not Muslim and does not view Allah as the one true God, and install a Sharia form of government." is asinine. While extremists (who are by definition extreme, out of the norm) might want that, most Muslims, just like most Christians, Hindus, or whatever, are moderate people whojust want to raise a family and have a good life and live in peace. They are human beings, not brainwashed psychopaths. When the Quran was written, America as a nation did not exist, so any justification for killing Americans is twisted.
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Dawg Talker
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until a couple months ago, i would totally agree with you man
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Legend
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We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
These hearings are the 21st century version of McCarthyism. Demonizing 1.5 billion people based on the action of the few. Furthermore, in this entire hearing, they brought forth essentially no experts on terrorism, radicalization or Islam. If you want to have the conversation about terrorism, have it, but not like this. This is such a witchhunt that I don't see how any logicial can person can look at it and say it's not.
I couldn't agree anymore.
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I have something of a unique perspective on this. From July of 2005 til this past New Years I was the resident manager and head of maintenance of 7 apartment buildings located directly next door to the Masjid Omar Ibn El Khattab Mosque. In addition to my work experience here, I have been a resident 2 buildings away from this mosque since 2001. My experience has been roughly 85% negative. We (my residents) have a very difficult time every Friday from noon on til 330pm or so. The reason for this is the mosque holds prayers during that period of time. All of the members of the congregation come from miles around the north end of Columbus and the OSU campus area to worship. This is all fine and well until these people start taking over all the parking spots in the apartment complexes without asking permission. They are rude and arrogant about it. These complexes have numbered and labeled parking spots 1 per unit. This is not just limited to my buildings. This is true for the entire street of apartment buildings. The people that live here pay for their parkings spots and they would like to be able to park their cars and walk inside their place. These muslims take over these spots, walk into the mosque and pay no attention to just how rude they are being. If you ask them to move their cars and park on the street, they say "No, I'm going to pray. I'm late. I'll move it when I'm done." It's basically "screw you, I'll do what I want" A couple of years ago, one of my maintenance guys was telling a muslim going to services to move his car (was a somalian driving a taxi) and the guy got mad and drove his car into my guy, knocking him down and causing injuries. The driver then fled. Our company and the cops asked the mosque for their assistance in indentifying this guy. The Imam and the mosque refused to help. Everytime I have to go make a service / maintenance call at on of the apartments, I have to cool my heels waiting outside the door till all the women are covered from head to toe. If a male is not there, I have to reschedule and come back another time (and usually not at a convenient time for me as I manage 185 units and other people want work done too) When I do get in, it's astonishing how filthy these people keep their apartments. Grease all over the stoves / ovens and counter tops. Let me tell you, it's a bear keeping the roaches down to a dull roar. When the health / sanitation inspectors come they have to lecture these people on doing simple and basic clean up. The worst of the lot are the somalians and the bangladeshis. I cringe when I get a service call from them. I spray my boots and my pants when I go in (which is why I keep my shoes ON when I go in.. and I do NOT care about their customs of no shoes in the house. I'm performing renovation, repairs and I'll abide by OSHA health and safety standars when I work thank you very much) for roaches and bedbugs. I am NOT in the mood to bring their bugs home to my place because they cannot be bothered with basic sanitation. Next up, there is the issue of terrorism. This is a relatively small mosque that I live next to. They have already had 3 of their congregation arrested by the FBI in connection with terror plots. here's the evidence to that: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Blotter/story?id=7758485&page=1Nuradin Abdi was convicted in 2007 of planning to blow up an Ohio shopping mall. Danny Johnston/AP Photo The FBI is investigating reports of links to an Ohio mosque by Muslim-convert Abdulhakim Muhammed, who allegedly shot and killed one soldier Monday and critically wounded another in a drive-by attack on a Little Rock, Ark., recruiting station.Iyman Faris was convicted in 2003 of planning to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge. Christopher Paul was convicted in 2008 of conspiring to use explosives against targets in the U.S. and Europe. All three terrorists worshiped and socialized at a small mosque in Columbus, Ohio, and, according to David B. Smith, an attorney for Faris, were part of a larger group of jihadists and extremists who frequented the mosque. The FBI now is investigating reports of links to that same mosque by Muslim-convert Abdulhakim Muhammad who allegedly shot and killed one soldier Monday and critically wounded another in a drive-by attack on a Little Rock, Ark., recruiting station, ABC News has learned. According to law enforcement sources, they have received reports that Muhammad appears to have attended the mosque during a period from 2006 to 2007 when evidence indicates he resided in Columbus. It is unclear what, if any, links he had to the individuals already convicted. However, his possible links to the mosque are one promising avenue under investigation as the government attempts to reconstruct Muhammad's path to radicalization and to establish firmly whether he acted alone in the recruiting station shooting. The mosque, according to well informed sources, is a small house of worship that has regularly been frequented by foreigners with radical sympathies who, after their stops in Ohio, continued onward. The Imam of the mosque was not immediately available for comment. Columbus has been identified as the jumping off point for Somalis residing in the United States, including Somali Americans, to become radicalized and then head overseas to wage jihad. Muhammad most recently had come to the attention of law enforcement authorities following his arrest in Yemen last year while carrying a forged Somali passport. Muhammad, 24, was the subject of a preliminary investigation by the FBI's Joint Terrorist Task Force and may have also been the subject of a prior investigation by authorities in Columbus, Ohio. ** This story goes on for awhile.. you can check the rest of it. This isn't an isolated link either.. I got more.. The next link FBI: Alleged killer may have eyed Atlanta Published: June 4, 2009 at 5:36 PM Recruiting center scene of fatal shooting ATLANTA, June 4 (UPI) -- The FBI said it was looking at whether a Muslim convert accused of killing a soldier outside an Arkansas recruiting center also targeted an Atlanta Jewish site. The Atlanta site was potentially one of several U.S. Jewish sites Abdulhakim Muhammad targeted, said an anti-terrorism group specializing in protecting against anti-Jewish attacks. Muhammad, 24 -- who pleaded not guilty to killing Pvt. William Long, 23, and wounding Pvt. Quinton Ezeagwula, 18, outside a Little Rock, Ark., recruiting office -- also had plans for an Atlanta "Jewish entity," an FBI spokesman told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Stephen Emmett would not tell the newspaper which Atlanta site Muhammad may have targeted. The non-profit Secure Community Network, which monitors threats to parts of the U.S. Jewish community, said Muhammad also may have targeted "military sites (and) government facilities" beyond the Little Rock recruiting station as well as "Jewish institutions in several cities throughout the United States." It did not identify which sites Muhammad may have targeted. ABC News reported Thursday Muhammad appears in 2006 and 2007 to have attended the Omar Ibn el-Khattab mosque in Columbus, Ohio, also frequented by three men later convicted of anti-U.S. terrorism. The other men are Nuradin Abdi, convicted in 2007 of planning to blow up an Ohio shopping mall; Iyman Faris, convicted in 2008 of planning to blow up New York's Brooklyn Bridge, and Christopher Paul, convicted in 2008 of conspiring to use explosives against targets in the United States and Europe.The mosque's imam was not immediately available for comment. web page While living in Columbus, Ohio, in 2006 and 2007, Muhammad reportedly attended Omar Ibn el-Khattab mosque, which was also frequented by three other men – Iyman Faris, Nuradin Abdi, and Christopher Paul – who were all convicted of terrorism charges in 2003, 2007 and 2008 respectively. http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=31442CAIR's Mum on Al-Qaeda Guilty Plea By: Patrick Poole FrontPageMagazine.com | Friday, June 27, 2008 Earlier this month Christopher Paul stood before a federal judge in Columbus, Ohio and pled guilty to receiving training in Al-Qaeda terror camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan, fighting with Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Bosnia, and passing that training on to other Muslims in the US and Europe with the intent to kill Americans at home and abroad as part of a plea deal with federal prosecutors to avoid conviction on even more charges. Since then, however, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has been curiously silent on Paul’s guilty plea, with no press releases, media interviews or angry editorials on the matter for nearly three weeks. And any mention of Christopher Paul and his Columbus Al-Qaeda co-conpirators has been tellingly scrubbed from CAIR’s website. This is especially curious considering the media full-court press that some CAIR officials engaged in when he was arrested in April 2007. At that time CAIR had no reservations about speaking publicly on the matter, as evidenced by the public protestations of Paul’s innocence by CAIR national vice-chairman, go-to friend of terrorists, and sometime pugilist Ahmad Al-Akhras, who defended his Al-Qaeda associate to the Associated Press: Ahmad Al-Akhras, vice chair of the Columbus chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, knows Paul and said the charges are out of character. “From the things I know, he is a loving husband and he has a wife and parents in town,” Al-Akhras said Thursday. “They are a good family together.” Al-Akhras said he and others in the Muslim community are guarding against a public backlash. “People start wondering and questioning, what is happening and why now?” he said. “When something like this pops up, it creates some anxiety among the members of the Muslim community. ... We hope nothing bad will happen and everything will be clear.” Two of Christopher Paul’s Ohio Al-Qaeda associates, Iyman Faris and Nuradin Abdi, are already serving prison sentences for their role in the Columbus Al-Qaeda cell (from court documents at least 10 others are known to have been involved, but have not yet been charged). As noted by Andrew Cochran at Counterterrorism Blog, Paul’s admission to his extensive collaboration with international terrorist plots going back to the early 1990s and the statement of facts in the case indicates that he is the earliest known American Al-Qaeda operative. In each of these cases of the Columbus Al-Qaeda cell, CAIR has initially rushed to publicly defend these men from the charges and to flog their own grievance-mongering agenda. But as the full scope of their involvement in the terrorist network became clear they attempted to distance themselves and their organizations from the terrorist network, while still attempting to promote their agenda and give their terrorist associates as much cover as possible. For instance, after Iyman Faris had pled guilty to felony terrorism charges, Al-Akhras business partner Mohammad Tarazi (whose wife serves as the corporate secretary for CAIR-OH), was dispatched to speak to a local TV station to float the story that Faris was mentally ill and possessed by demons: An Islamic religious leader said an Ohio trucker who pleaded guilty to felony terrorism charges had once claimed he was possessed by demons and attempted suicide. Mouhamed Nabih Tarazi volunteers as an imam to lead prayer services at various sites around Columbus. He performed the marriage ceremony for Iyman Faris, but said Faris did not attend services regularly because he was often on the road. Tarazi said he never heard Faris talk about politics, but thinks he might have been mentally ill. “He did have some mental problems. We did not know about these problems when he was married,” Tarazi said. Here Tarazi is attempting to deal with the guilty plea aftermath by simultaneously distance the mosque (Masjid Omar Ibn El Khattab, which was the hub of the Columbus Al-Qaeda cell) from Faris while explaining away his behavior with bizarre claims of mental illness and demon possession to still give cover for his friend – a claim that magically appeared only after the guilty plea. Nuradin Abdi’s arrest was more difficult for CAIR-OH to address as Abdi was known to have been an active in Masjid Omar and was one of the leaders of the local Al-Maghrib Institute (aka “Jihad U”) chapter. So it’s not surprising that Ahmad Al-Akhras rushed to defend Abdi to the local media: "What we know about him is unlike how he is portrayed," said Ahmad Al-Akhras, president of the Ohio office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. The group's leaders questioned the evidence and the timing of the announcement of charges against Abdi, noting that the FBI has dropped charges accusing others of terrorism. "This may be one of the cases also that may not have enough evidence or there's no evidence at all," Al-Akhras said. CAIR-OH actively aided Abdi’s defense team by parroting their bogus narrative that Abdi had been tortured in prison by US officials and was exhibiting signs of mental illness because of this alleged abuse. This time it was CAIR-OH president Asma Mobin-Uddin who was dispatched to do the group’s dirty work. She penned an op-ed for the Columbus Dispatch invoking her credentials as a physician to attest to Abdi’s mental state: As a physician, I am extremely concerned that his behaviors might indicate mental and possibly physical abuse during his detention, and that his mental injuries may be permanent. Area Marxist moonbat Harvey Wasserman and Columbus State professor and fellow moonbat Bob Fitrakis also parroted this theme of Abdi’s alleged torture: In court, Abdi looked nothing like a terrorist -- or his former self. His family and the larger Somali community here were horrified to see Abdi enter the courtroom smiling vacantly and failing to recognize his own brother. Apparently unconscious of his surroundings, Abdi banged his head repeatedly on a table and grinned at nothing. Many who know Abdi in the central Ohio community say the vague, sensational charges against him are absurdly out of character. No photos have emerged of abuse in prison. But Abdi's new attorney, his family and the community who knew him find little else to conclude. Some say he has apparently lost his mind under the conditions of his incarceration. The problem with Mobin-Uddin’s narrative of Abdi’s torture and mental collapse, however, is that she is a pediatrician, not a psychiatrist, and had a definite conflict of interest in her bogus diagnosis. And unfortunately for CAIR-OH, when actual mental health officials examined Abdi, they found that he was faking symptoms of mental illness in an attempt to avoid the 80 years in prison that he possibly faced. A federal appeals court also rebuffed his lawyers’ attempt to suppress incriminating statements he made at the time of his arrest. Notwithstanding Abdi’s eventual guilty plea, Asma Mobin-Uddin still features her Columbus Dispatch editorial in defense of Abdi on her personal website. And when a local Muslim columnist, Mahmoud El-Yousseph, conceded Abdi’s guilt and proper punishment and chastised CAIR-OH for refusing to withdraw their support for the terrorist, he was publicly rebuked by Ahmad Al-Akhras and others for deviating from the CAIR line of maintaining Abdi’s innocence at all costs. The most recent guilty plea by Columbus Al-Qaeda member Christopher Paul, however, provided a particularly difficult conundrum. Not only was Paul an active and well-known member of Masjid Omar, for years he had been the martial arts instructor for the mosque, presumably providing members there with jihadist training. This no doubt prompted Al-Akhras’ full court media press at the time of Paul’s arrest. And now that Paul has admitted his guilt and acknowledged that he had conspired to use weapons of mass destruction against US citizens at home and abroad, CAIR’s continued silence is as condemning as the respective guilty pleas by Iyman Faris, Nuradin Abdi and Christopher Paul. Considering that our local terrorist cell is the largest known Al-Qaeda operation in the US since 9/11, and that these convicted terrorists were close associates to CAIR officials (by their own admission), the campaign of silence by CAIR has becoming deafening. Enough of that. I think you get the point that the mosque next to me is a gathering point for terror plots and militant islamists. I can't wait to move. My complex was bought out by 3 different new landlords and they have their own maintenance staffs. I'm looking around and I'll prolly move when spring gets here. I'm tired of living next to Baghdad and Somalia.
SaintDawg™
Football, baseball, basketball, wine, women, walleye
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Dawg Talker
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It very much is a witchhung led by a Republican. Yea, there are violent quotes in the Quran. There are also violent quotes in the Bible and Torah as well. When is the US going to have a committee on Christian Radicals? Oh yea, that would be a bad move equating all Christians as Abortion-clinic bombers and terrorists (McVeigh). Then, why is it ok to do it to Muslims?
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Dawg Talker
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Possibly the same reason that you generalize in your opening statement by blaming all of the problems on republicans....? 
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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I'm in complete agreement over the parking space issue. However, Quote:
I think you get the point that the mosque next to me is a gathering point for terror plots and militant islamists.
The mosque next to you may have a radical inside it which is drawing these young men to join a radical cause. However, that still doesn't account for the "over abundance" (As Peter King calls it) of mosques harboring terrorists. There will always be rogue factions in a religion. You can look at the myriad of radical Christians, ultra-zionists, etc.
For what Charlie says about
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Then, why is it ok to do it to Muslims?
It's hard for all of us to question what we're comfortable with. Islam is still a relatively new mainstream religion. It's human nature to be afraid of the unknown. I'm not saying society is justified with demonizing Muslims, the LGBT community, etc. but there are mechanisms as to why we do it.
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Rookie
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I know this is a very serious issue, but I was very confused why one of SI's sports writers was covering this.
Well thats what im wondering as well maybe hes lookin for a new job because there wont be no football to cover .. 
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
These hearings are the 21st century version of McCarthyism. Demonizing 1.5 billion people based on the action of the few. Furthermore, in this entire hearing, they brought forth essentially no experts on terrorism, radicalization or Islam. If you want to have the conversation about terrorism, have it, but not like this. This is such a witchhunt that I don't see how any logicial can person can look at it and say it's not.
I couldn't agree anymore.
Will someone please show me where 1.5 billion people are being demonized?
I get so tired of this bs, and the use of McCarthyism is over the top. Why don't we have hearings about Christian extremists? More bs. There simply isn't such a large movement of Christians trying to commit terrorist acts on Americans by bastardizing Christianity.
What about McVey? More bs. He wasn't part of a large movement of Christianity trying to turn all of those who disagree with his faith to ash.
The closest comparison I can think of is the white supremacist, Christian militia types. You don't generally see them worshiping in mainstream churches will normal folk. I don't know when the last time we had hearings on these guys but I do know that our government keeps close tabs on all of them.
It has gotten so silly that you can't even mention the fact that the religious fanatical movement uses the word Muslim or Islamic. I hate to be the one to have to tell you that the vast majority of us know that there is a difference between a religion and some of the people who follow it.
Also, all this crap that was said before the hearings by people who are against them was more political grandstanding than the hearings themselves.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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It very much is a witchhung led by a Republican. Yea, there are violent quotes in the Quran. There are also violent quotes in the Bible and Torah as well. When is the US going to have a committee on Christian Radicals? Oh yea, that would be a bad move equating all Christians as Abortion-clinic bombers and terrorists (McVeigh). Then, why is it ok to do it to Muslims?
You are right about one thing. That's to say that there are violent quotes in all these books. The difference between people like you and me is I won't cherry pick a phrase from one religion when it suits me. I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge that you were misleading when discussing the use of the word rape in the bible.
#gmstrong
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Will someone please show me where 1.5 billion people are being demonized?
You don't have to look very hard. Tennessee and Missouri trying to ban jihad law and Peter King comes to mind. If you need more proof, you can kill plenty of time here:
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/
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I get so tired of this bs, and the use of McCarthyism is over the top. Why don't we have hearings about Christian extremists? More bs. There simply isn't such a large movement of Christians trying to commit terrorist acts on Americans by bastardizing Christianity.
McCarthyism by definition: McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence.
You don't feel that this is going on in this instance?
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What about McVey? More bs. He wasn't part of a large movement of Christianity trying to turn all of those who disagree with his faith to ash.
He most certainly was a part of the Christian Identity Movement.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15532
You can also see it here under the US section (yeah it's Wikipedia but it serves to prove a larger point)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution...ates_of_America
If you listen or watch his final interview, he talks about how things such as the Turner Diary was one of the MOST driving forces in his motivation.
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The closest comparison I can think of is the white supremacist, Christian militia types.
Of which both the Hutaree Militia and McVeigh were members of.
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It has gotten so silly that you can't even mention the fact that the religious fanatical movement uses the word Muslim or Islamic. I hate to be the one to have to tell you that the vast majority of us know that there is a difference between a religion and some of the people who follow it.
As I said in my first post, if you want to have a discussion on radicalization or terrorism, why not actually have experts testify instead of Joe Everyman as King is doing?
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Dawg Talker
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Possibly the same reason that you generalize in your opening statement by blaming all of the problems on republicans....?
So, you disagree that Peter King is a Republican from New York?
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Will someone please show me where 1.5 billion people are being demonized?
You don't have to look very hard. Tennessee and Missouri trying to ban jihad law and Peter King comes to mind. If you need more proof, you can kill plenty of time here:
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/
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I get so tired of this bs, and the use of McCarthyism is over the top. Why don't we have hearings about Christian extremists? More bs. There simply isn't such a large movement of Christians trying to commit terrorist acts on Americans by bastardizing Christianity.
McCarthyism by definition: McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence.
You don't feel that this is going on in this instance?
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What about McVey? More bs. He wasn't part of a large movement of Christianity trying to turn all of those who disagree with his faith to ash.
He most certainly was a part of the Christian Identity Movement.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15532
You can also see it here under the US section (yeah it's Wikipedia but it serves to prove a larger point)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution...ates_of_America
If you listen or watch his final interview, he talks about how things such as the Turner Diary was one of the MOST driving forces in his motivation.
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The closest comparison I can think of is the white supremacist, Christian militia types.
Of which both the Hutaree Militia and McVeigh were members of.
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It has gotten so silly that you can't even mention the fact that the religious fanatical movement uses the word Muslim or Islamic. I hate to be the one to have to tell you that the vast majority of us know that there is a difference between a religion and some of the people who follow it.
As I said in my first post, if you want to have a discussion on radicalization or terrorism, why not actually have experts testify instead of Joe Everyman as King is doing?
I am talking about the King hearings. I did look up the Tennessee law.
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Tennessee: faith and civil liberties groups call for withdrawal of anti-sharia bill
DateTuesday, March 1, 2011
Local Muslim, Jewish and Christian leaders and representatives from the national Council on American-Islamic Relations gathered near the Tennessee Capitol this afternoon to ask an anti-Shariah bill be withdrawn. They fear that the law would make it illegal to be Muslim in Tennessee.
"All of a sudden, I pray using the Koran or the Sunnas of the Prophet, and it's a crime," said Imam Yusuf Abdullah of Masjid Al-Islam in Nashville. "What kind of bill is that?"
The bill is sponsored in the Senate by Sen. Bill Ketron, R-Murfreesboro, and in the House by Rep. Judd Matheny, R-Tullahoma. Supporters say it only applies to terrorists, and one section says, "This part neither targets, nor incidentally prohibits or inhibits, the peaceful practice of any religion, and in particular, the practice of Islam by its adherents."
However, the bill also claims that Shariah law demands the overthrow of the U.S. Constitution: "The knowing adherence to sharia and to foreign sharia authorities is prima facie evidence of an act in support of the overthrow of the United States government...."
It gives the state attorney general the right to say who is practicing any kind of Shariah law – which includes prayers, marriage and dietary restrictions – and who is in support of it. Those convicted would be guilty of a Class B felony punishable by a fine, not less than 15 years in prison or both.
The Tennessean, 1 March 2011
I am not about to go surfing for other articles but i do seem to remember this was a few members involved. it wasn't the whole State House and Senate. I also have heard other states bringing uo Sharia law as well. The have a misunderstanding of what is Sharia Law but I have yet to seem them blame all Muslims as well. When most people hear about things like Honor Killings they immediately think Of Sharia Law. Now I don't know anyone who thinks the vast majority of Muslims believe in Honor Killings.
As to McVey. maybe I misstated what I tried to get across. Like I said later on in the post there are the white supremacist, militia types. They might call themselves Christians but they are not groups of people you will run into at your neighborhood church. They tend to be more cult than religion. Very easy to distinguish from others. They also have been followed very closely. Like I said before I can't remember the last time I heard about hearings for them on the hill but I'm pretty sure we had them.
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As I said in my first post, if you want to have a discussion on radicalization or terrorism, why not actually have experts testify instead of Joe Everyman as King is doing?
Come on, I know you can say it. Radical Islamic terrorism. That is what we are talking about. If you don't like it I can understand. However that is exactly what is being looked at. That doesn't mean there isn't other forms of terrorism or other religions where people are using their names to incite violence and terror. They just aren't the ones we are having the most trouble with right now.
I do not know where King plans on taking these hearings. I did hear the comments made by those for and opposed to the hearings on the opening day. I did hear how a couple of Muslim men turned in their own family members because of their fear they were going to/did commit terrorist acts against other Americans.
I have heard some people mention radical elements that are inside their local Mosques. )i can't say that came from the 1st day of the hearings.) To be honest I forgot about the hearings going on since I didn't hear anything in the news. If I get some time I will see if I can find out if anything was said that makes me believe that all Muslims are being put in a bad light. I will also see if that info gets refuted.
Personally I would like to see Frank Gaffney testify and all of his claims debunked in public. I think taking away any possible credibility people like him have does far more good.
btw..using an anti-defamation link for your arguments generally won't get you very far. I'm not saying everything on the site is a lie. I just don't trust that I'm getting the full story. This goes for any type of site, not just Muslim ones.
#gmstrong
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I will set aside everything but this question for the purpose of this debate: In a hearing about Radical Islam Terrorism why are there no experts on Radical Islam Terrorism being called forth?
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Legend
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Well Joker, you are a sharp kid, but sorry to say, still a kid.
Give it 25 years and you will figure it out.
Sorry man....it is what it is no matter what we hope or feel.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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Btw...Joker. I just want to say that I do respect your opinion. When looking at big picture stuff I doubt we agree on much. I however think it is important that we have a difference of opinion of ideas in this country. I have a niece about your age who is very deep into politics. She is so wrong that even I broken clock is right more than her. People in my family do not see how I can support someone like her (and yourself) when her politics will single handedly (sp) bring on the destruction of America and everything holy.
It is real simple. I think if young people like you are this passionate over these serious issues now we will be in much better shape when you come to your senses.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
I will set aside everything but this question for the purpose of this debate: In a hearing about Radical Islam Terrorism why are there no experts on Radical Islam Terrorism being called forth?
Now that wasn't so tough was it. 
Like I said i will have to do my research on why he is having these hearings and for what purpose.
#gmstrong
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Somehow I think the good ole US of A can survive my left leaning self. 
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The daily show and colbert report have been making fun of this guy for the last week. Supposedly he's an IRA supporter. They have blurbs of him saying things like, "The IRA aren't terrorists because they didn't attack the United states" and such.
There are no sacred cows.
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Legend
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The only politics that are destroying America are those of Dems and Reps, neither of which have to do with the liberal and conservative ideals our people discuss.
As for the topic, religion is archaic and ridiculous. We need a hearing for this? Irony is, I bet this King guy calls himself Christian.
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Legend
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Your opinions on religion are well known to me. These guys are far above what most of their religion believe.
As to King,,,I do not know enough about him to say whether he is or acts like a Christian. i do know that one of the reasons I stopped going to church is because I couldn't stand being around so many fake people in church. U am not the best of people but I do not try to act like something I am not for 45 minutes on Sunday.
For any of you Christians that are thinking about chiming in...I know I'm the one with the problem, not the people I don't want to be around.
#gmstrong
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A little joke that is kind of an example of how I feel...
There was a black man crying in front of a Southern Baptist Church. Jesus walked up to him to see what was wrong. The man said "They will not let me in." Jesus responded " Don't feel bad, I'm not allowed in either."
#gmstrong
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All Pro
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Two step easy fix for the parking.
1) Prominent signs saying unauthorized vehicles will be towed at owners expense.
2) Contract with towing company giving them the right to tow these guys.
The towing company will monitor the parking lot. As soon as they see someone park in your lot and walk into the mosque, they get the hook. It will cost $100, at least, to get the car back. After a week or two, they'll get the message. A local towing company will love to have this contract.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Quote:
Two step easy fix for the parking.
1) Prominent signs saying unauthorized vehicles will be towed at owners expense.
2) Contract with towing company giving them the right to tow these guys.
The towing company will monitor the parking lot. As soon as they see someone park in your lot and walk into the mosque, they get the hook. It will cost $100, at least, to get the car back. After a week or two, they'll get the message. A local towing company will love to have this contract.
The only downside I see to this idea is that once you start towing cars, its only a matter of time before the worshippers get angry and fly planes into the tow-truck HQ and Saintdawgs building he works at.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Dawg Talker
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or claim discrimination and get a thread on the browns message board!
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Legend
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Quote:
The only downside I see to this idea is that once you start towing cars, its only a matter of time before the worshippers get angry and fly planes into the tow-truck HQ and Saintdawgs building he works at.
And now your stereotyping!!! 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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Where to start.... My first general statement is.. what is the big deal? Muslim extremists pose the biggest known threat to this country right now of any group... if we can't say that in public, then where are we? (The biggest threat outside of congress bankrupting us and turning us into a 3rd world financial disaster)... Quote:
Demonizing 1.5 billion people based on the action of the few.
They didn't do that. I've read the whole thing. Nobody ever once said or even inplyed that 1.5 billion people are terrorists or are supportive of terrorists.. not even close. What was said is that there is an element trying to recruit the youth of this country, Muslim youth and non-Muslim youth alike, and plan attacks in this country and abroad..... is the Muslim community doing enough to help stop them or they are turning a blind eye.. a legitimate question. Bring up Christians all you want but if I saw somebody doing what appeared to be clandestine things in a church like collecting potential bomb making materials, or anything suspicious, I would alert the authorities immediately... would most Muslims do that to other Muslims? or are we not allowed to ask?
As far as the part you bolded, you could have just as easily bolded another counterpoint... the Sheriff said he feels he gets good cooperation from Muslims, other folks within the culture said they don't think Muslims cooperate enough and share stories of kids being corrupted.. that is what is called a debate or a hearing, in which you attempt to gather information so you can make more informed decisions. I know that is not allowed in this country any more though...
Were people brought in and tried for being Muslim? Are people being arrested? If no, then this isn't McArthyism...
And for those who love to disparage Christianity every chance they get.. if you want to have hearings on the potential dangers of homegrown Christian cult terrorist organizations.. HAVE AT IT!!!
yebat' Putin
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1st String
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Quote:
Where to start....
My first general statement is.. what is the big deal? Muslim extremists pose the biggest known threat to this country right now of any group... if we can't say that in public, then where are we?
Do they though? Honest question, I'm not sure of the answer myself. I haven't looked at any numbers, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mexican drug cartels have killed more American civilians in the ten years since the 9/11 attacks than Muslim extremists. Clearly 9/11 was a tragedy of monumental proportions and can't be allowed to repeat, but the threat of terrorism to the average U.S. citizen (separate from the threat of extremists to service personnel overseas, which doesn't seem to be the issue in these hearings) is often vastly overblown.
Don't mean to hijack the thread, just a thought I had.
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Legend
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I haven't looked at any numbers, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mexican drug cartels have killed more American civilians in the ten years since the 9/11 attacks than Muslim extremists.
You could be right, but I don't look at that as terrorism. They are not plotting to blow us up by the thousands, they are not plotting to take down our computer infrastructure, collapse our financial markets or poison our water or anything else on a grand scale.
The drug cartels will just kill you if you get in the way of them running drugs.. thugs and low life scum absolutely but terrorists? I would not use that word to describe them.
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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Don't mean to hijack the thread, just a thought I had.
--------------------
Funny you should use the word "hijack", I seem to remembar , say forty years ago or so, Muslim extremist started hijacking airplanes. I never remembered any Christian extremists doing it.
For those who think it is unfair to consider Muslims a threat, you need a brain enema. They are not all a threat, and yes it is unfair to lump them all together. But facts are facts, over the past 30 years or so, terrorism has been done almost exclusively by followers of Islam.
For those trying to equate the Koran and the bible. I want one person to show me where in the bible does it say to kill all those who don't believe. Where in the bible does it suggest that if you don't become Christain, you should be killed?
These things are in the Koran. They are taught widespread across the world. Taking the word "Islamic" from in front of "terrorist" does not change the fact that they are still Islamic.
Muslims speak openly and proudly in the media all across the world about their desire to rid the world of anybody who isn't a Muslim, yet jack-a-holes in this country on the left try to deny this.
Their religion is much different than any other. It is religion, politics, and a set of rules to live by. Their religious goal is, and always has been, to take over the world. Until everybody believes what they believe, and live under their "religion" they are taught to do anything, including killing, to achieve the result.
Read the Koran, it is all right there.
As for guys like Joker, following Ed Schultz, and getting your news from Comedy Central, shows the intelligence level of the youth in this country.
These heaings are about the RADICALIZATION of Islam. Nowhere is it a judgement of Muslims in general. Some people just don't get it.
#gmstrong
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The difference is that people who murder in the name of Christianity are immediately denounced and looked at as deranged criminals in the minds of all Christians. They are not taught murder and hatred in schools by the leaders of the faith. They are not looked at as heroes in the eyes of millions of Christians who want to see certain cultures wiped off the face of the earth. Only the completely ignorant refuse to see this difference and think the comparison is logical.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Read the Koran, it is all right there.
You've read the Koran?!?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I want one person to show me where in the bible does it say to kill all those who don't believe. Where in the bible does it suggest that if you don't become Christain, you should be killed?
Well here you go:
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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
And again:
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They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
And yet another one.
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Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
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“If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
On a similar note
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A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Shocking, it's almost like all of these things advocate killing people, yet we as Christians do not. It's almost like over the last 2000 years things have changed.
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As for guys like Joker, following Ed Schultz, and getting your news from Comedy Central, shows the intelligence level of the youth in this country.
Actually, I study Political Science and get my news from places such as The Economist, Wall Street Journal and other reputable news sources. I can guarantee you that I have forgotten more about Islam than you have learned in your lifetime. Half of my family is Muslim so I don't need to "Go read the Kuran" to learn about Islam. Additionally, I was born and raised in a country where half the people were Muslim, and once again, SHOCKINGLY, not all of them were extremists. You want to question my intelligence? Go for it, buddy. Just remember, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, and in this case your house is made of the finest glass. 
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And additionally, you want to cherry pick passages from Islam? Go for it. But it's a book that also says things such as: Quote:
“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors."(Qur’an, 2:190)
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Help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty.”(Qur’an, 5:2)
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God does not forbid you to be kind to those who do not take arms against you. God loves those who are just” (60:8)
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“Forgive and show indulgence to them…Whosoever surrendereth his purpose to God while doing good, his reward is with his Lord; and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve” (2:109-112).
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Do not allow your hatred of a folk who [once] stopped your going to the Inviolable Place of Worship [2] seduce you to transgress; but help ye one another unto righteousness and pious duty. Help not one another unto sin and transgression, but keep your duty to God” (5:2).
Similarily, the Bible says
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Micah 4:3-5 "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hat spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever." (KJV)
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Mark 9:38-40 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." (KJV)
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Luke 9:49-50 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."
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Luke 9:52-56: "...they did not receive him...And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village."
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John 4:7-27: "There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink...Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water...Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father...And upon this came his disciples, and marveled that he talked with the woman..."
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"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
So both books have both violence and tolerance in them. It's up to those who practice either religion to choose their path and the overwhelming majority of both Muslims and Christians just want to live a life of peace. To cherry pick passages from the Quran when essentially the same things are said in the Bible (as the Quran draws largely from the Bible) is idiotic and beyond hypocritical.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,788 Likes: 308
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,788 Likes: 308 |
Quote:
So both books have both violence and tolerance in them. It's up to those who practice either religion to choose their path and the overwhelming majority of both Muslims and Christians just want to live a life of peace. To cherry pick passages from the Quran when essentially the same things are said in the Bible (as the Quran draws largely from the Bible) is idiotic and beyond hypocritical.
#gmstrong
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