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Quote:
JACKSONVILLE: Gov. Rick Scott signed the teacher merit pay bill on Thursday in Jacksonville, his first signed legislation since becoming Governor.
"We must recruit and retain the best people to make sure every classroom in Florida has a highly effective teacher," Scott said.
The portion of the bill dealing with eliminating multi-year contracts for new teachers goes into effect July 1.
Schools are given three years to set up new evaluation systems for teachers tied to test scores. That portion goes into effect July 2014.
This is the second year the Legislature has attempted to pass a merit pay bill, with former Gov. Charlie Crist vetoing the bill last year after teacher protests.
This year, the response from teachers was muted and Scott indicated early on his support for tying teacher pay to test scores.
LINK
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Dawg Talker
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Not sure I like this...because then what happens is all that is accomplished is teachers not teaching the material but just prepping kids for the test in which nothing is retained.  Not sure what the answer is though....I just know that this really isn't it. Some may claim it is better than what we have....But I don't think so. A different wrong path is still a wrong path.....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Dawg Talker
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I'll be against this until someone shows me a truly objective way to evaluate teachers.
This isn't like an assembly line, where every part fits together. Each and every student and class is different. A teacher who "grades high" one year may drop the next year solely because the students he/she has are lower level lerners. Conversely, a "bad" teacher might look better if he/she has higher level lerners.
This will end up being more about students' abilities to memorize test materials than it will about student learning - and there is a huge difference.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Quote:
Not sure I like this...because then what happens is all that is accomplished is teachers not teaching the material but just prepping kids for the test in which nothing is retained
In schools that a significant amount of students who test poorly, this strategy has been common for years. Like I noted in a separate thread, at the school I do my observation at, the curriculum is formed around the standard tests. - Teachers are so hard up to get these kids to pass that in the final two weeks leading up to the test, they held Saturday morning study sessions which included a free breakfast that was cooked and served by the teachers. - I volunteered for one of them. I witnessed students eat, and sit with teachers for about an hour before leaving. One week later, when it came time to take the test, student attendance was so bad that teachers had to scramble and scour neighborhoods to pick students up and take them to school.
In my opinion, this "merit" law is going to discourage young adults from becoming teachers.
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Legend
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How do you judge teachers if not by how their students do?
Seriously.
In business, I am judged by the results I deliver, or don't deliver. Either I do the job, or I don't. I truly don't understand why we need so many excuses for our teachers. I don't understand why teachers should be tenured. School boards and parents should put together some sort of evaluation in conjunction with input from individual teachers .... and make teachers accountable for the job they do ..... just like everyone else on this planet is accountable for the job they do.
We cannot excuse ineffective teachers just because the job is hard. I have heard all kinds of people I know who were going to be teachers ..... "because I like kids". Well, that's all well and good, but if you cannot control kids in the classroom .... reach kids ..... and teach kids ... then you can like them all you want .... but you're still going to fail at the job you took on.
Kids who want to go into education as a college choice should have to spend 3 weeks in an inner city school before they waste their time and a whole lot of their, and the taxpayers dollars.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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I guess the issue I have is, who's to say a teacher meets a certain qualification? Who decides if the teacher has "merit"?
I will say one group of people who should NEVER make those decisions: school superintendents.
Yes, there are some who are very good.
But most of them that I have experience with are just terrible. They come into a district, make wholesale changes, put yes-men into positions of power, then, when a different or better job comes up in another district, bam, they're gone.
One that sticks out to me is Dianne Talarico in Canton City Schools. She came in and tried to revamp the entire district. She was a very "woman-empowerment" type person and put women in positions of authority. I do NOT have a problem with that. The problem was that she was putting women in those positions that were not capable. It was essentially like she was trying to overturn centuries of male-centric leadership within 2 years.
And, the men she put into positions of authority were mostly incompetent, too. Yes-men, and we all know how effective they are.
Anyway, she does all this, makes all these changes, and, after about 4 years, she gets a job offer to make more money in San Francisco, and boom, she's gone.
So, who's going to say that a teacher deserves a raise? Think personality conflicts or teaching style conflicts won't enter into those decisions?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Legend
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I've seen this in practice in San Diego schools as well. As soon as the state changed to a test-based evaluation system, the city stripped out all non-test essential curricula (science, music, art, etc) and taught strictly the basics. You can't base it strictly on peer evaluations either, as you'll get a high measure of favortism and some political sway. I've seen that happen in school districts as well, just in the hiring process ... as people who were "buddy-buddy" with one of the higher level admins were hired over people who were way more qualified for the position. Unlike the private sector ... there's no real punishment for hiring/promoting worse people. A combination of several things (test scores, peer-evaluation, school placement in the academic decathalon  ), might be a better solution but still no-where near perfect. I think one possible solution is to make schools a publically funded "private" buisness. If schools have to compete against each other to draw in more students, there will finally be incentive to reward "good" teachers over "bad" ones. More students would equal more income, and more benefits to employees. If you set a flat-level minimum of funding, it should also prevent "bad" schools from going under ... They may draw less income due to fewer students, but will also have fewer students per teacher. That should give them a chance to regroup and build up a stronger program. Let the parents "decide" where those extra pay bonuses should go.
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Quote:
How do you judge teachers if not by how their students do?
Seriously.
In business, I am judged by the results I deliver, or don't deliver. Either I do the job, or I don't. I truly don't understand why we need so many excuses for our teachers. I don't understand why teachers should be tenured. School boards and parents should put together some sort of evaluation in conjunction with input from individual teachers .... and make teachers accountable for the job they do ..... just like everyone else on this planet is accountable for the job they do.
We cannot excuse ineffective teachers just because the job is hard. I have heard all kinds of people I know who were going to be teachers ..... "because I like kids". Well, that's all well and good, but if you cannot control kids in the classroom .... reach kids ..... and teach kids ... then you can like them all you want .... but you're still going to fail at the job you took on.
Kids who want to go into education as a college choice should have to spend 3 weeks in an inner city school before they waste their time and a whole lot of their, and the taxpayers dollars.
If teachers could get rid of the kids who didn't care then I would be all for the merit pay aspect. I'm not saying don't try to teach these kids, but if they've gone through school for 10 years and still don't care, odds are they are never going to - and that is likely a problem at home. Kids, IMO, are also part of the business if you want to look at it that way. There is no way a business would keep people who didn't care, didn't show up, showed up late, didn't do their work...the list goes on and on.
#gmstrong
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You can judge the teacher's performance based on how well the individual students perform as a group. If a group of students decline in performance with the same teacher, then you can see a pattern of a bad teacher. You don't evaluate students by comparing them to different groups, but rather by comparing them to how they performed prior and afterwards. Say you have a student and they receive performance grades like the following. C B B C B D B C C Now lets also say their student peers all fall down at the same "D" spot. You then should be able to recognize a problem. A better explanattion
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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Legend
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That wouldn't work ... teachers would just give everyone an A then.
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Legend
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Quote:
That wouldn't work ... teachers would just give everyone an A then.
i thought that's what they were doing these days anyway 
#gmstrong
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Standards can be graded slightly up/down given socio-economic standards in the community and such .... but it comes down to the fact that teachers have to teach. If they don;t teach ... no matter what the reasons are ..... then why have them at all?
As far as another poster worrying about schools tearing out everything except the basics .... I really don't have a problem with that. Schools can partner with community colleges and state institututions to offer more advanced classes to their gifted students.
The simple fact is that too many of our schools do a really poor job of teaching our kids ..... and yes there are a lot of different reasons ..... but the ones that can be controlled by the teachers need to be their responsibility.
Now if it were me .... I would make a law where you must have a high school diploma at the very least in order to receive government assistance. I would also require that any felon doing 5 or more years much get their diploma as condition of release.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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jc..
I may be wrong, but IMO the best way of evaluating would be a basic test at the beginning of the year for each class (which I recall we did anyway, just so the teacher could get an idea of where each student was at), then retest at the end of the semester/year. and Compare the 2, per student.
If 75% of the students improved in that class, the teacher must have done something right, and vice versa.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
jc..
I may be wrong, but IMO the best way of evaluating would be a basic test at the beginning of the year for each class (which I recall we did anyway, just so the teacher could get an idea of where each student was at), then retest at the end of the semester/year. and Compare the 2, per student.
If 75% of the students improved in that class, the teacher must have done something right, and vice versa.
That's pretty much what the value-added system(what I was talking about) would do, but teacher unions still have a beef with that. They don't like being evaluated.
Last edited by ~TuX~; 03/24/11 04:34 PM.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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If a school is doing a poor job at teaching basic fundamentals, then all the music and art "extras" NEED to be stripped out.
What is the problem with "teaching to the test" if the test covers those items that the student is supposed to know?
Should the schools turn out kids that can't do enough math to make correct change at McDonalds but know how to weave a really great basket? This actually might be a more beneficial option for some of them, however our tax dollars go to schools in part so that we WILL get correct change at McDonalds and I don't need a basket. Most likely it would be a half-assed basket, anyway.
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Legend
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In a way, I agree. If the kids can't do their 3 R's, then the other stuff should be put on hold until they get basics to intellectually survive in this world.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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J/C For those of you who think that the standardized tests are nothing other than the "basics", here is a link to a few sample questions. Mind you, this is the test that students must pass in order to get a diploma, and the success rate of a teacher is measured by how students perform on these tests. Students take these tests starting in tenth grade. Mind you, teachers are asked to get students to pass these tests. - Students who miss weeks worth of class throughout the year, students who show up whenever they want to, students who don't study, student's who are disruptive in class. - On top of that, we have to get devoted students with learning disabilities who get distracted by disruptive students to pass these tests. Go over some of the sample questions, then come back here and tell me what you think of the situation. Be honest.... Check out the Social Studies section. http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates/...p;Content=86742
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Legend
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In business,
Here is your first mistake. Education isn't a business and cannot be treated as such.
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I truly don't understand why we need so many excuses for our teachers. I don't understand why teachers should be tenured
I do not see the need for teachers to be tenured either. I have no idea what you consider to be excuses so I can't agree or disagree.
Quote:
School boards and parents should put together some sort of evaluation in conjunction with input from individual teachers .... and make teachers accountable for the job they do ..... just like everyone else on this planet is accountable for the job they do.
Seriously? I can't see how parents should be involved in anything. That is just plain dumb.
As far as being accountable..Teachers should be able to be let go for being ineffective. Their bosses (principals) already do teacher observations, as well as knowing kids test scores, discipline problems and other issues that may have an effect on the kids, I think judging and holding them accountable by principals is a much better method than test scores.
#gmstrong
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Good, this stems from the other thread... I'm just going to end up replying to all of you. Quote:
Schools are given three years to set up new evaluation systems for teachers tied to test scores. That portion goes into effect July 2014.
Yay, now students get to be taught methods on how to take and pass the test so teachers can retain their jobs! 
Quote:
This isn't like an assembly line, where every part fits together.
Exactly. I don't feel that students should be used to fit some sort of mold. I think Roger Waters said it best with "We don't need no education..."
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In business, I am judged by the results I deliver, or don't deliver.
I know it's stated earlier but education is not a business. Nor should education be treated like a business. There are many more factors in education instead of using employees as means to an end.
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Kids who want to go into education as a college choice should have to spend 3 weeks in an inner city school before they waste their time and a whole lot of their, and the taxpayers dollars.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. It does wonders for ones mindset as to what really goes on in the education system, In order for any reform to work, young educators need to see what happens at the bottom. I think the education system could be vastly overhauled if young and tenured educators could work to reform the system from the bottom (urban districts).
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I think one possible solution is to make schools a publically funded "private" buisness.
Then who decides who gets to go to these schools? Will minority groups be allowed in too? A free and equal education should be the right of every American.
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Standards can be graded slightly up/down given socio-economic standards in the community and such
That's another huge problem. Teachers shouldn't have to teach up or down. Many educators fail to challenge students who they have given up on. These teachers have failed their profession. I don't see how the current idea or merit pay is going to eliminate these teachers.
Quote:
I may be wrong, but IMO the best way of evaluating would be a basic test at the beginning of the year for each class (which I recall we did anyway, just so the teacher could get an idea of where each student was at), then retest at the end of the semester/year. and Compare the 2, per student.
Why does it have to be a basic standardized test? Why not a rigorous assignment assigned at the beginning of the year and then track a students progress over all assignments through the year?
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If a school is doing a poor job at teaching basic fundamentals, then all the music and art "extras" NEED to be stripped out.
Why not sports, too? Also, this is unfair to the students who are meeting the (minimal) standards as required by the state. The students who are doing a whiz bang job in school shouldn't have to be punished and have their music, art, and sports ripped away from them because grown adults are bickering like petulant children.
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What is the problem with "teaching to the test" if the test covers those items that the student is supposed to know?
The Wall by Pink Floyd covers this subject. These standardized tests cover the bare minimum. What chain students to learning just the bare minimum? I guarantee that the quality of education will drop off ever further if merit pay becomes based off of these standardized tests.
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For those of you who think that the standardized tests are nothing other than the "basics", here is a link to a few sample questions.
The OGT (the highschool graduation test in Ohio) tests students on knowledge that should have been learned by 8th grade. Why handcuff these kids to learn the same material for another four years in high school?
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As far as being accountable..Teachers should be able to be let go for being ineffective. Their bosses (principals) already do teacher observations, as well as knowing kids test scores, discipline problems and other issues that may have an effect on the kids, I think judging and holding them accountable by principals is a much better method than test scores.
I agree. Standardized tests can be a good thing but teacher evaluations shouldn't be based off of just a state mandated test.
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Here is your first mistake. Education isn't a business and cannot be treated as such.
You're right ... and wrong. Every area of life has areas that bleed over from one to another. Nothing in life is strictly encapsulated within its own zone that no other area can reach.
What is the point of education? Is it to have highly educated children who grow up to sit around and do nothing all day long except "learn"? No. The whole point of educatin is for children to learn the skills and basic knowledge necessary to both function in the world, and to continue expanding the learning process. Education helps kids learn ..... and as they grow they learn how to apply that knowledge. This learning of new knowledge/skills and the application thereof is what business does far better than the traditional education system often does. People in businesses learn new skills and equipment rapidly and efficiently. Why is that? It's because business looks at what knowledge and skills are necessary in order for a person to do their job, and they teach that information very well.
Business teaches us methods for taking highly effective techniques and tactics and encorporating them into a process. The same thing can, and should, take place in education.
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I have no idea what you consider to be excuses so I can't agree or disagree.
Teachers often face challenges, and I understand that. However, there are many who excuse each and every failure on the part of the education system on everything except the teachers. There are good teachers and bad teachers, effective teachers and ineffective teachers, and we need a system that can differentiate between the 2. This is the only way to find the ineffective teachers and either retrain them and help them become more effective, or, unfortunately, remove those teachers who just cannot do the job. Teaching is not merely knowing the information. It is a special skill. It can be improved, and we should have a process that help accomplish this on a continuing basis.
On to tests ..... kids will be tested every day for the rest of their working lives once they leave school. They will be tested and judged on their ability to incorporate new knowledge and skills. If kids cannot handle tests as kids, then how will they handle them as adults in the working world? I believe that kids should be tested more often, and not less often. They should be taught, drilled, and tested for new information. This again is something that we do in business. We have what is called a 4 corner process, where we tell the new employee how to do a particular task, we have them explain the process back to us, we show them, and then we observe them doing the new task. Half of our time is spent on instruction, and half is spent testing the new knowledge/skill. There process is ongoing, of course, and the trainee is retested as the process continues. The same basic process can, I believe, work in education.
If I were in charge of the education system in the US I would streamline the process greatly. I would eliminate stuff like foreign languages and would spend far more time drilling and teaching the basic education requirements. Today we have kids graduating whot can say hello in Spanish, but cannot differentiate between the proper usage of "there, their, they're". We need to get back to the basics. We can work in classes at state and community colleges for gifted students, but our public education system must teach kids the basics they need to build on.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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2nd String
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I can't believe I voted for Rick Scott. I regret that vote big time! Florida has the nation's 2nd worst education system I believe and this new tactic will only make it worse imo. 
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Everything you say there is great, but what do you do with the kids that flat out don't want to be taught? The kids that don't care because their parents don't care?
I would be willing to bet that if you took a group of teachers that were graded as great in a wealthy suburb and swapped them with a group of teachers that were considered poor at an large inner-city school that a lot (not all) of the great teachers would suddenly become poor and a lot of the poor teachers (again, not all) would suddenly become great.
The problem is that we have had several generations where a large number of children, especially inner-city, were raised in a manner that does not teach respect, discipline, integrity, and the importance of an education. Instead they are taught entitlement, no respect for fellow human beings, stealing beats working, pumping out more kids equals another paycheck, and that education is useless. Until that is fixed, the education system will not be fixed unless we can rid it of the kids that just don't care.
#gmstrong
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That's why I say that there has to be an incentive for, and consequences for not finishing your education.
It all has to be tied together in a single combined strategy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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1st String
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Quote:
People in businesses learn new skills and equipment rapidly and efficiently. Why is that?
Because they're adults with educations being paid to learn a specific skillset, not children and teenagers trying to achieve a well-rounded base of knowledge.
It's a much easier task to teach a 30 year-old with a Bachelor's in Computer Science how to become a systems operator than it is to give a teenager the foundational knowledge he/she needs in order to succeed in the profession of his/her choosing. Business has the luxury of concentrating on teaching knowledge and skills relevant only to the position at hand. Unless we institute a career lottery at the end of the 8th grade, education doesn't have the same advantage.
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Dawg Talker
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The problem with most of the responses in this thread is simple. Everyone thinks teaching is easy and anyone can do it.
It's like a business. It can be easily controlled. Yeah, rate those teachers. Get rid of the bad ones. It's easy, My business does it. Why can't they?
Simply put, that's all a load of crap.
Teaching is not like running an auto plant. Teachers have control of those students for 6-7 hours a day. 5 days a week. Roughly 30 hours a week. Outside influences get them the other 138 hours each week. Who do you think shapes most of the kid's learning abilities....teachers or their parents and genetics?
Businesses can have bad employees and no one thinks a thing about it. But let a teacher just look in the wrong direction and it's a catastrophe.
Hell, Kasich was part of the Wall Street gang that cluster****** our economy and he got elected Governor. Let a teacher have a class full of morons (and it happens a lot more than you think, believe me) and you guys want to boot them out the door and ruin their career. Because of a test score.
You know how to get rid of a bad teacher? The school principal figures it out pretty quickly and gets rid of them. That happens a lot more than you think, too.
Is the present system perfect? I doubt it. But basing a person's career/livelihood on the test results of tests taken by other people will insure a couple of things in short order:
Teachers will teach to the test and find ways to "cheat" the system. (Wouldn't you if it meant the difference between eating and being unemployed?)
The good college students that would make excellent teachers won't give the profession a second thought. You'll end up with what you didn't want all along - dumber, less well rounded kids and crappy teachers.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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YTown, I had the same legal requirements in a different thread. I am a retired teacher, and I hear the frustration in your posts as clearly as I did during my time. But I take exception to some of your statements and opinions. I am not apologizing for bad teachers. But this is a bad notion. You are satisfied with what you deliver and seem to have control of that situation. Kids are not widgets. You try to spread the time and do right by them. It is almost impossible. Quite a number of items, all different, that are important; they all get set aside for the test. No test is perfect; suppose it changes yearly (it does). Governor has an easy side of things. But the mindset has been that whatever is required is OK. I favor testing as one part of teacher feedback; it is something most do and all should. Individual grad tests do NOT line up with curriculums, sometimes radically so, and efforts begin to align the courses with the testing. The tests change, no clarity as to what must be taught by level is ever final, and little requirement is placed on kids, and less on parents to send a kid ready to learn. The biggest knock on the No Child Left Behind's high stake testing is it is not so much diagnostic as punitive. A good test confirms what is in place, shows where improvement is needed, and then help should be on the way. I did the intervention work these tests require, for my own and to help kids graduate. That program which was very helpful to counter our social promotion policy by the board and superintendent got cancelled; they all got raises. I want kids to succeed. The majority of teachers contend with the seemingly impossible on a daily basis, and often care for and about kids when others do not. It is fair to say there are problems, but not to characterize all of them as deficient. It will get much worse in Ohio; I believe you can sign bills and set bars legislatively. But reality replaces a false ideal high road fairly soon. We want the finest, but we will not help. I favor getting our funding together constitutionally (Ohio is not), and inviting politicians to offer targets and stay in or stay out. Dropping by during elections is not good for the kids. Many teachers are leaving with two to three years. What is in place needs help; it does not need flogging and ridicule. Help teachers help kids; given THEIR track records, politicians seem like some of those least capable to shape success. But since we all went to school, we are all experts. I really see a lot of hypocrisy in how politicians handle their business and raises and pensions. But it is a double-standard as far as teacher treatment and requirements. I am saddened by what these choices may reap down the road.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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That's why I say that there has to be an incentive for, and consequences for not finishing your education.
It all has to be tied together in a single combined strategy.
What consequences would possibly make people want to learn? I think you mentioned taking away welfare, food stamps, etc as an option if you don't finish school. If that happens, all that I can say is that I am glad I am well armed because a hungry, homeless, angry mob will be coming after the people that have food and shelter for survival.
Until people want to change on their own, I don't believe that they will. The welfare stat is so ingrained in some people that they know no other way nor do they want to.
Otto - well said in that post.  Are you a teacher?
#gmstrong
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Legend
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People in businesses learn new skills and equipment rapidly and efficiently. Why is that?
Because they're adults with educations being paid to learn a specific skillset, not children and teenagers trying to achieve a well-rounded base of knowledge.
It's a much easier task to teach a 30 year-old with a Bachelor's in Computer Science how to become a systems operator than it is to give a teenager the foundational knowledge he/she needs in order to succeed in the profession of his/her choosing. Business has the luxury of concentrating on teaching knowledge and skills relevant only to the position at hand. Unless we institute a career lottery at the end of the 8th grade, education doesn't have the same advantage.
I have taught new skills to inner city high school kids, along with teaching inner city young adults the proper way(s) to do things. I retrained teen agers and young adults as part of turning businesses around.
There are tons of excuses why things cannot be done ....... but most excuses can be overcome if the commitment is strong enough. We need to work towards changing the mindset regarding education ... on all sides ..... including the student, the public, the teachers, and the administration of education.
"It can't be done" never gets anything done. Most of the greatest successes in this country are the result of people doing things that "cannot be done".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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How do you judge teachers if not by how their students do?
Here's the problem, passing tests proves nothing. Before you can judge teachers on how their students perform, you need an accurate method to judging a students performance. I've lost count of how many people I've know that have passed some sort of IT certification exam and still don't have a clue what they are doing. Judging teachers based on how well their students do on test will not get the results we are looking for.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Legend
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That's why we need to determine what the minimum acceptable standards are for each grade level, build the curriculum around those standards, get rid of the stuff like foreign languages ..... (which, if you want to talk about a memorization type class that does not build long term retention .... this is it) and build a strong basic curriculum. Instead of one English class, have a reading and a writing class for each grade level. split it up, and double the attention paid to learning everyday and professional use of the English language. That will help kids a lot more than "go learn rudimentary Spanish" will.
Build a strong core curriculum, and partner with community and state colleges to offer advanced classes for advanced children.
I also do agree that knowledge alone is not enough to guarantee success .... but a lack of knowledge is more likely to create a lack of success than the other way around. Building a strong core of basic knowledge is the best way to create successful people ... especially in a society that no longer has lots of high paying physical labor type jobs that someone without an education can easily walk into.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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I agree, Otto. I didn't fail the test alone anymore than coaches miss tackles. And I refuse to buy into the advocacy for everybody gets fired who fails. No business workers left. I have been a shop rat, union and non-union. I personally resent and reject that some how private sector folks are somehow superior and have opinions beyond question because they are Not teachers. You say fix the schools; I tried for a whole career. I say fix the economy. We are taxpayers; we seemingly care about kids. We have certainly larded mountains of cash on lawmakers, Wall Street, and Kasich and Co. cannot give it away to the top few per cent fast enough. If the test is about "success'' I think I should label all of this and our leaders failures and offer advice. Especially for politicians and Lehmanizers. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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They seem fairly decent, I checked out a few. Haven't looked at a high school test in a long, long time.
If this is the test students have to pass to graduate, then by definition it covers the material students need to know. As long as the questions are changed often and kept secret, just like any other similar test, this would seem to eliminate the issue of cheating the test or teaching exclusively to it.
It also shows that a defined standard is what we judge our students by. No reason not to judge their teachers the same way. I have read of cases where a working teacher could not pass the same test given to the students.
One side benefit to this process could be that once teachers realize that disruptive and/or unwilling students could cost them their job, they may demand to be allowed to remove such students from their class.
School rule for no headphones. Headphones in class equals suspension. Suspended students on school grounds are trespassing. Get them off, Get out, or Get arrested. Choose NOW, and next time you won't get any choice.
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Legend
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I'll be against this until someone shows me a truly objective way to evaluate teachers.
Most professions already have evaluation methods, why can't education come up with sme?.. and why does it have to be completely objective? Is there anything wrong with allowing some subjectivity into it? Can't the principal and administration use their discretion to say that a teacher did a great job even if the results are not immediately identifiable?
Every other form of business seems to come up with ways to evaluate employees... some objective, some subjective.. why can't teachers?
And as far as those who say teachers are just going to teach to the tests.... what did you care about in school? I only cared about passing tests, that was it. I retained stuff but not because I saw the long term benefits of remembering Shakespeare, I learned it to pass a test and I remembered some of it totally by accident. 
yebat' Putin
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I did my best to scrub all that Shakespeare I retained in HS with beer in college.
#gmstrong
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There's no way a union will permit subjective evaluation. They are all about defined mediocre performance standards with no reward for above average performance. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Just a couple of thoughts from me, and I'm guessing many think I'm anti teacher simply because of other threads, i.e. I agree with limiting the collective bargaining (for reasons I've stated in other threads), I feel teachers are paid well (no, they aren't "rich", but they make good money - at least here in n.w. Ohio), they get huge amounts of time off, and probably 2% work the 10 hour days that many claim they do.
However, here's something many people don't think about.
I was giving the spelling test today in my daughters class. I have 3 kids at a time. Teacher came out and said "Mr. Arch, we might be a little delayed today. Student X has lost one of his books. Earlier this week, it was taken from his desk, and we found it out by the lockers, the next day, it was missing from his desk and we found it in the bathroom, and now today it's gone again. This isn't a case of a kid losing his book - someone is taking it. And we're going to find it today and put an end to it."
Anyway, I give the teacher credit for sticking up for this kid. Taking 20 minutes to find the book that had been hocked, 3 times this week alone.
Teachers have to deal with a lot. My daughter is in 4th grade - but there are a million examples of kids wanting something, needing something, having a problem, etc that come into play on a daily basis.
A "good" teacher - knowing his/her kids - will recognize things and hopefully act on them - be it an extra 2 minutes in the morning listening to a kid tell them about the night before - a kid that it is obvious gets no attention at home - maybe taking 2 minutes to encourage a kid here and there.
As I stood there - the teacher made every kid check their desk for the book, then made them go check their lockers.......saying "we ARE going to find this book before anything else gets done."
The book was found. By the teacher. In a book bag. She knew what was going on, and I have a feeling the kid that took it got a little bit of a talking to later in the day.
That's just one small example of what teachers do - other than teach - every day. There was no big hassle, no scene.
I still think teachers make a very good living - here in n.w. Ohio anyway - can't speak for other areas of the country. Starting off at roughly $31,000 a year, and steadily moving up to over $50,000 in a relatively short time (10 to 12 years) ain't shabby around here.
Factor in being able to retire with full benefits at age 52 or 53 - it ain't all bad. I have no doubt teachers, as a collective, do a good job. I also have no problem saying teachers are paid well.
I also have no problem saying teachers do a tough job.
My point is - how DO you judge teachers? On the state tests only??? That's not fair in my opinion. I don't know how you judge them. Why? Just today, of the 23 kids I gave the spelling test to, 4 of them flat out said, before the test "I'm not gonna get them right, I didn't practice at all."
When I asked them why, they each said "I don't know, I never looked at them at home." We want to judge the teacher because there's no emphasis at home on learning? That's not right. A teacher can't sit down with every student, on every subject, and force the learning. A teacher CAN say "here's what we're doing, here's how to do it."
On a side note here - spelling test wise - my daughter is one of only 5 kids out of about 90 that is a "Stellar Speller", meaning she hasn't missed any words this year. (probably jinxed her right there). A very good friend of hers, and ours (wife and I) - and we're good friends with her parents, missed her first word today. I was grading it and said "Lex - you got this one wrong."
Sooga is one of 4 now that haven't misspelled any words.
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Legend
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Every other form of business seems to come up with ways to evaluate employees... some objective, some subjective.. why can't teachers?
As has been said many times already, education isn't a business, nor should it be treated like one.
As to evaluation ... there are so many variables that simply don't fit the analogy. One of them being the end object.
In employment, the job descriptions are kind of cut and dried. We need X for this position, X for this position. The end goals aren't very flexible, whereas in teaching you're looking at all sorts of different goals on a spectrum.
In the end, you're going to have different goals - teach a kid to read, help a kid develop basic social skills ... you're looking at situations that in business, would simply be cut loose.
As far as evaluating teachers ... I will recommend a component that is brought up in so many aspects, but not so much this one - be a parent.
I don't know how things work these days, but when I was in school, if a parent wanted to spend a day sitting through the child's class, they were more than welcome to, and on occasion some did. Get to know the people who are responsible for educating your children. Sit in on a few classes, talk with them in-depth during conferences. That won't give you a perfect picture of how your kid's education is going, but it's a start.
Now, of course, that's a pipe dream for a lot of communities where the parents themselves don't care ... but it's not hard to pay attention to the hours and effort being put in ... a lot of times teaching comes down to making a connection ...
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they get huge amounts of time off, and probably 2% work the 10 hour days that many claim they do.
Sure, they get a ton of time off but the teachers who really do endorse their calling use that time off to develop new lessons, constantly evaluate old lessons, and some even use their summers to work a part time/seasonal job.
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Legend
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they get huge amounts of time off, and probably 2% work the 10 hour days that many claim they do.
Sure, they get a ton of time off but the teachers who really do endorse their calling use that time off to develop new lessons, constantly evaluate old lessons, and some even use their summers to work a part time/seasonal job.
Right.
And what was your point again?
Apparently you didn't read my whole post? I know it was long, but come on.
On a different note - we were in Tennessee last week. Talking to a friend. A teacher from there in the Bristol area. 35 years old - she quit teaching last year. Why? Because, according to her, last year they had 10 days of school canceled due to winter weather. But when they had to make the days up at the end of the year, she said "This is crazy. According to my contract, I should be done. What they want me to do is work for free."
Yup - the days off during the year - where she got paid for doing nothing - didn't matter - but the days the school had to make up at the end of the year - well, she thought she was working for free. Made her mad enough she quit.
Although she's a friend, I say the school district got the bargain by getting rid of an idiot teacher.
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Legend
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As has been said many times already, education isn't a business, nor should it be treated like one.
Not completely but parts of it could be treated MORE like a business than they are... currently they are treated like a.. like a... like a government cluster...
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As to evaluation ... there are so many variables that simply don't fit the analogy. One of them being the end object.
In employment, the job descriptions are kind of cut and dried. We need X for this position, X for this position. The end goals aren't very flexible, whereas in teaching you're looking at all sorts of different goals on a spectrum.
Bull. I work for a construction management company. We live and die by billable hours. Our technical people need to be billable.. but they also need to do business development, they need to do personal improvement... We have some guys that stay very billable... but they don't do business development so in the end, they are not graded as highly... Only in factories and other such places of repetitive work are job descriptions that cut and dried.. in a lot of places they are more open... My boss sees me every day, some months I might not have that much billable work to do but if I'm busting my butt doing other stuff, then it's all good...
So you want parents to evaluate the teachers?
yebat' Putin
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