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Obama Administration Under Mounting Pressure for Botched Gun Trafficking Investigation By William La Jeunesse Published March 28, 2011 Congress and the Department of Justice appear to be headed for a showdown this week over documents detailing Operation Fast and Furious, the botched gunrunning sting set up by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives that funneled more than 1,700 smuggled weapons from Arizona to Mexico. The Justice Department has until Wednesday to deliver to congressional investigators a stack of records and emails naming the individuals responsible for the gun trafficking operation that may have killed dozens, if not hundreds of Mexicans, and is becoming a growing embarrassment for the Obama administration. Under Project Gunrunner and the Phoenix off-shoot, dubbed Fast and Furious, the ATF encouraged gun store owners to sell to straw buyers -- consumers who they suspected of working on behalf of Mexican drug cartels. Project Gunrunner purposely allowed the straw buyers to illegally buy and export guns only to see where they surfaced in Mexico. Using this investigative technique, the ATF hoped to take down the entire gun trafficking organization. Instead, records show it allowed more than 1,700 guns, including hundreds of AK-47s and high-powered, armor-piercing .50-caliber rifles to be trafficked to Mexico Buying guns for non-personal use is illegal. Yet gun store owners were assured by ATF agents the buyers were under investigation and the guns were being intercepted before crossing into Mexico. AFT's gunrunning investigations were supposed to stem the flow of guns, like these, bought by U.S. straw buyers and sold in Mexico. Instead, whistleblowers say the guns were allowed "to walk." President Obama, speaking for the first time about the growing scandal, conceded last week Fast and Furious may have been "a serious mistake," but he claimed, "I did not authorize it; Eric Holder, the attorney general, did not authorize it. He's been very clear that our policy is to catch gunrunners and put them into jail." But an investigation by Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, could show otherwise. The ATF operates under Justice Department, and two assistant U.S. attorneys in Phoenix authorized virtually every wiretap, affidavit and investigation conducted in Operation Fast and Furious. Some, like Issa, wonder how Holder could not have known about an investigation that size. "One of the questions we always ask is who is lying," Issa told Fox News. "We lose our credibility if we don't come clean and make the changes necessary to save lives on both sides of the border." If the Justice Department and ATF refuse to deliver the records Issa requested, as it already has done with similar requests by Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, Issa can subpoena the records. "We will subpoena if we have to, we'll hold hearings if we have to, we'll call in officials if we have to. But at the end of the day, the two Americans likely to have died as a result of this action pale in comparison to the countless numbers of Mexicans who have been killed," said Issa. He is referring to Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry and Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agent Jamie Zapata. The guns used to kill both men were bought in the U.S. and investigators will now see if they are linked to Project Gunrunner. Humberto Trevino, a senior Mexican lawmaker, says at least 150 people have been shot with ATF-monitored guns. Two of the gun stores involved were Carter's Country in Houston and J&G Gun Sales in Prescott, Ariz. "Let me tell you something about Carter's Country. They have been co-operating with ATF from the get-go," says Carter's County attorney Dick Deguerin. "They were told to go through with what they considered to be questionable sales. They were told to go through with sales of three or more assault rifles at the same time or five or more 9-mm guns at the same time or a young Hispanic male paying in cash. It's all profiling, but they went through with it." Both gun stores felt burned by the ATF -- first by leaked records to The Washington Post that showed the two stores responsible for dozens of guns found at Mexican crime scenes, and now by Operation Fast and Furious. "You assumed they had your back," added J&G President Brad Desaye. "Absolutely, we felt like partners with ATF in a lot of ways." Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich said in a Feb. 4 letter the operation's purpose was "to dismantle the entire trafficking organization, not merely to arrest straw purchasers." "The allegation -- that ATF 'sanctioned' or otherwise knowingly allowed the sale of assault weapons to a straw purchaser who then transported them into Mexico -- is false," he wrote. Holder also says his department policy is not to "let guns walk." web page So while the Mexican president was in congress blasting our gun laws..... and while the administration was shouting and blasting our gun laws.... and while liberals everywhere were using this as an example of the need for tighter gun laws... the administration was willingly shipping guns to drug lords in Mexico in an attempted sting operation and now we don't know where most of them went.... 
yebat' Putin
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Yeah ... no one authorized it ... but it still happened. It happened on this adminstration's watch ... and on the watch of this Attorney General. (If one can say that Holder is watching anything at all)
Eric Holder needs to go. He has been an absolute failure at Justice, and has no business being the chief law enforcement officer for the United States. His Justice Department had been a "Lack of Justice" Department, and he has to go.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Sounds to me like as if the ATF has messed up another operation.
To criticize this operation after the fact is like saying,, hey, don't try anything lest it blow up in your face..
I Applaud the effort, but not exactly excited by the execution of the plan.
At least someone tried to do something..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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To criticize this operation after the fact is like saying,, hey, don't try anything lest it blow up in your face..
My criticism comes from the administration allowing the President of Mexico to stand in the United States Capital building, before Congress, and bad mouth the American people, the State of Arizona, the second amendment, law abiding gun manufacturers and distributors, and everybody else he could think of, then get a BIG OVATION from the weak kneed, spineless, gutless, democrats in congress... when, in fact, it was THE GOVERNMENT that was encouraging and allowing many of those guns to cross the border and end up in the hands of criminals.. and it is the people of Arizona that are trying to enforce our laws.. that was a day as low as any other for democrats..
Here is what the commander in chief said in 2009...
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MEXICO CITY | Meeting face-to-face with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, President Obama on Thursday said the U.S. is to blame for much of Mexico’s drug violence, and he set up a major congressional gun-control battle by calling on the Senate to ratify a treaty designed to track and cut the flow of guns to other countries.
Mr. Obama said he wants to renew a ban on some semiautomatic weapons but that it is not likely to pass Congress. Instead, he called for the Senate to ratify a decade-old hemispherewide treaty that would require nations to mark all weapons produced in the country and track them to make sure no weapons were exported to countries where they were banned.
“I will not pretend that this is Mexico’s responsibility alone. The demand for these drugs in the United States is what’s helping keep these cartels in business,” Mr. Obama said at a joint news conference with Mr. Calderon. “This war is being waged with guns purchased not here, but in the United States. More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States, many from gun shops that line our shared border.”
But the treaty is likely to run into opposition from gun rights backers, and the Senate’s top Democrat was noncommittal Thursday about the measure.
Those gun shops were trying to obey the law as his administration told them not to... this is about gun control, this was an end run by the administration to set up a condition by which he could further his gun control agenda and it is blowing up in his face. If you believe this is all a big shock to him and the joker running the justice department, which I do not believe for a second, then you would think, as he and Holder were saying these things that somebody, SOMEBODY down the line that knew what was going on might have sent a classified e-mail up the chain to tell them just exactly where all these guns were coming from as Obama was playing his favorite game, blame America first, the people, the constitution, the law abiding gun shops...
Now, go to cnn.com and msnbc.com and see if you can find anything about this story on the front page... good luck. 
yebat' Putin
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What does the president of mexico have to do with it... Are you combining two stories again in an effort to confuse me Seriously, any effort to try and stop the violence on the border, any effort to stop the illegals from entering our country and any effort to stop the sale of weapons to drug lords, is all good to me. Of course, it's better if it actually works, but I do applaud the effort just the same.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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What does the president of mexico have to do with it... Are you combining two stories again in an effort to confuse me
Seriously, any effort to try and stop the violence on the border, any effort to stop the illegals from entering our country and any effort to stop the sale of weapons to drug lords, is all good to me.
Let me try this again...
The President of Mexico got a standing ovation from the democrats in congress for blasting the American people, the folks in Arizona, etc. and blaming the American people for their drug related crime...
the President of the United States, who is ultimately responsible for the Department of Justice, and ATF, blamed the gun shops on the border, the American people, and American gun manufacturers for much of the gun violence in Mexico.
Eric Holder, who runs the Department of Justice was in lock step with the President blaming every American he could think of while touting his gun control plans...
While all of this was happening, it was the ATF and the DoJ that were INTENTIONALLY SENDING GUNS TO MEXICO.
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Of course, it's better if it actually works, but I do applaud the effort just the same.
Yes, I'm sure you do.. but then none of your kids were shot by one of these guns. I suppose if these folks, in their wisdom, decided that the best way to track down criminals in your hometown was to release a couple hundred automatic weapons into the hands of the worst criminals in town and then go round them up...... then after countless deaths in your town and everybody else living in fear, it was discovered that the guns were placed there by the government who now had lost track of them and nobody was being held accountable, I'm sure you would stand and applaud and say, "Oh well, GOOD TRY GUYS!!!!" 
But not to worry, these are just largely innocent Mexican people being shot and terrorized due to this policy... so let's all hear a nice loud "GO TEAM!!" for our governments incompetence....
yebat' Putin
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Has anyone actually watched any of the gunbattles between the cartels and the Mexican Army? It looks to me like the cartels have automatic AK47's and rocket propelled grenades. They aren't getting them from the US. Why would they need to or even bother? This "scandal" is accomplishing exactly what the administration is trying to establish, a link between US guns and violence in Mexico. If a few people at the DOJ and ATF have to be sacrificed, I'm sure they think it's a small price.
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What does the president of mexico have to do with it... Are you combining two stories again in an effort to confuse me
Seriously, any effort to try and stop the violence on the border, any effort to stop the illegals from entering our country and any effort to stop the sale of weapons to drug lords, is all good to me.
Let me try this again...
You are taking two different stories and mixing them,, I know of what you speak and on this, we agree.. But what's that got to do with the ATF Trying something to stop illegal activitiy
The President of Mexico got a standing ovation from the democrats in congress for blasting the American people, the folks in Arizona, etc. and blaming the American people for their drug related crime...
the President of the United States, who is ultimately responsible for the Department of Justice, and ATF, blamed the gun shops on the border, the American people, and American gun manufacturers for much of the gun violence in Mexico.
Eric Holder, who runs the Department of Justice was in lock step with the President blaming every American he could think of while touting his gun control plans...
While all of this was happening, it was the ATF and the DoJ that were INTENTIONALLY SENDING GUNS TO MEXICO.
Well gees, you make it sound as if they were doing it with bad intentions. The way I read it, it seemed like they were trying to set up a sting operation. and it didn't work.. Like I said, I applaud the effort, now they need to get it to work
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Of course, it's better if it actually works, but I do applaud the effort just the same.
Yes, I'm sure you do.. but then none of your kids were shot by one of these guns.
that was an uncalled for comment. I suppose if these folks, in their wisdom, decided that the best way to track down criminals in your hometown was to release a couple hundred automatic weapons into the hands of the worst criminals in town and then go round them up...... then after countless deaths in your town and everybody else living in fear, it was discovered that the guns were placed there by the government who now had lost track of them and nobody was being held accountable, I'm sure you would stand and applaud and say, "Oh well, GOOD TRY GUYS!!!!"
But not to worry, these are just largely innocent Mexican people being shot and terrorized due to this policy... so let's all hear a nice loud "GO TEAM!!" for our governments incompetence....
Bottom line, if the ATF or other american law enfocement officials try different things to catch the bad guys, then I guess it's ok with you if it works, but if it doesn't, you think they shouldn't have done it.
If they just give up and try nothing, then are you going to say to them.,,., HEY THERE,, Good job?. I bet not.
The ATF in this instance didn't do anything that hasn't be tried by other enforcement officers for any number of items.
Stolen cars,, let a bad guy steal a few, then follow him back to the chop shop and get the whole dame ring.
Drug: same thing, don't 'take down the little guy, follow him and get him to lead you to the next rung up the ladder.. and follow that one until he leads you to the next rung and the next and the next till you get to the top.
In theory it's great and in practice, it works a lot of the time. It didn't work this time.
And because it didn't, are you suggesting they just stop?
I say, use whatever means are available to you to get the bad guys. And that sometimes comes with risk.. I hate it when it fails, but when it works, it's sweet.
By the way, it doesn't have anything to do with who is in office.. it's been done like this for years and years....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Stolen cars,, let a bad guy steal a few, then follow him back to the chop shop and get the whole dame ring.
Stolen cars aren't weapons though. By your logic, should we covertly sell nuclear weapons to terrorist groups and see where they lead back to? If we accidently lose track of some and they end up blowing up New York City ... is your response going to be, "Oh well, at least we tried"?
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I guess it's ok with you if it works, but if it doesn't, you think they shouldn't have done it.
There are acceptable levels of risk. This plan sounds extremely far fetched and seems to have a ton of downside, like ending up with thousands of automatic weapons in the hands of criminals. Just admit it Daman, there is a huge double standard here, if it was an American city where this attempt had played out and American families and kids were being terrorized by these guns that the US Government intentionally allowed into the hands of criminals, this would be a HUGE DEAL.. but it's just Mexican kids and families so.. .Oh well, we tried.
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The ATF in this instance didn't do anything that hasn't be tried by other enforcement officers for any number of items.
Do you know that to be fact for something like automatic weapons? I know that quite frequently they are used in stings to catch bad guys, I'm not so sure that automatic weapons are routinely and intentionally sold to criminals in hopes that we can track them...
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And because it didn't, are you suggesting they just stop?
I'm suggesting somebody within the government take accountability for it. I'm suggesting that Obama and Holder go back on television and apologize to the law abiding American citizens who only sold these guns to Mexican criminals because ATF told them to. And I'm sort of suggesting that it would be nice if MSNBC and CNN at least acknowledge that there is this story out there and maybe just write 500 words about it or something..
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By the way, it doesn't have anything to do with who is in office..
Daman, for all I know this scheme could have been concocted during the Bush administration and is just now being played out.. I don't know, I don't care, SOMEBODY in the government needs to stand up and say "It was my idea and it didn't work."
yebat' Putin
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Stolen cars,, let a bad guy steal a few, then follow him back to the chop shop and get the whole dame ring.
Stolen cars aren't weapons though. By your logic, should we covertly sell nuclear weapons to terrorist groups and see where they lead back to? If we accidently lose track of some and they end up blowing up New York City ... is your response going to be, "Oh well, at least we tried"?
No, stolen cars aren't weapons,., you are correct. But when doing this with weapons, a higher degree of skill and planning and execution have to go into it. and clearly, in this case, the ATF failed..
THe nuclear comment is something I never said.. and that's not logical to think that way. I just love how guys on here twist things like that.
let me be clear
I'D NEVER ATTEMPT THIS WITH NUKES
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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THe nuclear comment is something I never said.. and that's not logical to think that way. I just love how guys on here twist things like that.
let me be clear
I'D NEVER ATTEMPT THIS WITH NUKES
Ok.. now we are getting somewhere we are just disagreeing with where the line is that makes this stupid.
Ok, so releasing drugs into the system so you can track them back is ok...
Allowing car thiefs to steal cars so you can track them back is ok...
Releasing a couple thousand automatic weapons into the hands of known drug lords in a country where we have minimal jurisdiction to go get them.... (This one we are currently disagreeing on)
Releasing nukes into the hands of terrorists is a bad idea..
So we are now not arguing whether this whole idea is stupid, we are arguing degree and at what POINT it becomes stupid.. let's continue. Somewhere between releasing a couple thousand automatic weapons into the hands of drug lords (which Daman applauds)... and releasing nukes into the hands of terrorists (which Daman thinks is stupid), Daman agrees that this becomes a bad idea... I wonder where that line is. 
yebat' Putin
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There are acceptable levels of risk.
Yes there are. Just like there are acceptable levels of planning and execution. Clearly this plan failed..
This plan isn't far fetched at all. It's the planning and execution and failsafes that failed. Think about if it had worked..
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Do you know that to be fact for something like automatic weapons?
Of course not. You never hear about covert operations that succeed. and when you do hear something, it's always watered down. They aren't going to broadcast how they succeeded.. that would be crazy.
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I'm suggesting somebody within the government take accountability for it.
No, what you are suggesting is that Obama and Holder take blame for it. That's quite a bit different than being accountable.
Seriously, this doesn't seem like a high level plan that should or would involve the president of the US. I seriously doubt he was aware of it. but if he was, I"m sure he relied on his people in charge of such activities to make a plan, follow it, execute it and succeed.
I'm sure he didn't plan for the guns to be lost.
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Daman, for all I know this scheme could have been concocted during the Bush administration and is just now being played out.. I don't know, I don't care, SOMEBODY in the government needs to stand up and say "It was my idea and it didn't work."
I don't know if it was a Bush Admin plan or an Obama. and it doesn't matter. The plan has merit, the execution had none.
What are you saying, you want a sacrificial lamb? You want some Fodder to chew up for this screw up?
What good is that going to do? What value, outside of political postering does that even have?
I don't want to thwart invention because of convention. In other words, I don't want to stifle creative thinking by having to have everyone looking over thier shoulder to see where the axe is coming from if a plan goes south.
These guys have tough jobs to do, I don't have a problem with some creative solutions.
And I won't hang a man out to dry for trying to stem the tide either.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But when doing this with weapons, a higher degree of skill and planning and execution have to go into it. and clearly, in this case, the ATF failed.
Clearly.
The question is "why"?
Was the reason the guns were allowed to be sold illegally to truly see where the guns turn up? If so, then what? Why not let the gun stores follow the existing laws?
But if that wasn't the reason - which is questionable - what was the reason? So that the gov't. could say "look how many guns sold here end up in Mexico - we need to tighten the clamps on the law abiding citizens even more......"
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Usually when they bait drugs and car and stuff, they have trackers. These guns were just allowed to go, with the idea they would run serial numbers when they were picked up in raids or whatever. Basically, whenever the damage is done.
Bad idea from the start.
Want to supply guns, fine. But have someone or someway of knowing where they are at every moment.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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No, what you are suggesting is that Obama and Holder take blame for it. That's quite a bit different than being accountable.
You post this then immediately after it you post that I acknowledge that this plan could have started under Bush and I don't care... which way would you like to parse what I said?
All I said I want Obama and Holder to do is publicly acknowledge that when they blamed the gun shops and the manufacturers and the American people for all of the guns in Mexico, that THEY WERE WRONG... that many of them were there because of the federal government.. that's it.
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What are you saying, you want a sacrificial lamb? You want some Fodder to chew up for this screw up?
Nope. I want accountability.... I want the person that authorized it to stand up. I would think that when an operation goes wrong and the result is hundreds of dead civilians that somebody might want to do an investigation to make sure due diligence was done to make sure the planning was appropriate, to make sure protocols were followed.. I'm talking about people at the top who know law enforcement better than me. Since it appears this whole thing was concocted and put into place at the middle management level, I'd like upper management to make sure those who did it, acted appropriately, even if it failed.
But lets go back..
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This plan isn't far fetched at all. It's the planning and execution and failsafes that failed.
How do you know it isn't far fetched? I have a question.. actually several... As far as we know, we never even told the Mexican authorities about this, don't you think we might have done that so they could help us track the guns? What authority does the ATF have to track the guns once they cross into Mexico?
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Think about if it had worked..
It didn't, the one Mexican lawmaker says he believes at least 150 people have been killed with these guns and 1700 of these guns are still on the streets... it didn't work, not even close, and I'm sorry when that is the cost of failure, a simple OH well, we tried, just doesn't cut it.
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I don't want to thwart invention because of convention. In other words, I don't want to stifle creative thinking by having to have everyone looking over thier shoulder to see where the axe is coming from if a plan goes south.
Daman, when the cost of failure is potentially hundreds of innocent lives.. there damn sure better be somebody looking over somebodys shoulder and somebody better damn sure be concerned about an axe falling if it doesn't work.
You are being awful cavalier about this loss of life and potential loss of a whole lot more.
yebat' Putin
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All I said I want Obama and Holder to do is publicly acknowledge that when they blamed the gun shops and the manufacturers and the American people for all of the guns in Mexico, that THEY WERE WRONG... that many of them were there because of the federal government.. that's it.
Wait, Obama made statements about a situation that were later determined to be false? ... great ... now we might have people posting in khaki colors for YEARS reminding us that Obama lied and people died.
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You post this then immediately after it you post that I acknowledge that this plan could have started under Bush and I don't care... which way would you like to parse what I said?
I could have replaced Obama with Bush and the same thing holds true.. or at least it should.... You wanted Obama and Holder to take the blame, thus the reason I used Obama.
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Nope. I want accountability.... I want the person that authorized it to stand up
Again, why? what value, outside of the obvious political value, does it really have.
Last edited by Damanshot; 03/29/11 03:57 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You wanted Obama and Holder to take the blame, thus the reason I used Obama.
No, accountability is not blame. I want them to take accountability for what has happened within their government and apologize for blaming innocent people and then demand that a full investigation will be held.
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Nope. I want accountability.... I want the person that authorized it to stand up
Again, why? what value, outside of the obvious political value, does it really have.
Ok Daman, forget about the facts of this particular case here for a second and let me lay out a scenario for you...
Over the course of this past year, 79 people were violently gunned down on the streets of Aurora, Ohio and the surrounding areas of Bainbridge, Twinsbrook and Streetsboro with automatic weapons and 50 caliber guns.. some of them are gang bangers, quite a few of them are innocent civilians and children who were either just in the wrong place at the wrong time or they were made examples of, and some of them are Aurora police officers who were targeted and assassinated while trying to do their job.....
Then in a breaking story, the Akron Beacon Journal reports that the heavy firepower being used in many of these violent killings was allowed to be sold and put onto the streets into the hands of the most violent area residents by the government....
So somebody asks how this happened and Mayor McGill says, "I have no idea how this happened," and police chief Seth Riewalt says, "I don't know how this happened either"... and everybody up to the governor denies any knowledge of how this happened. They all agree that the government put the guns there and that many people are dead because of it... but nobody wants to say how it happened.
and there is Daman, in his home, cowering in fear, not asking who is responsible because that wouldn't solve anything.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
How did Mexico get all of those american guns?
The United States has been the largest arms exporter in the world the last 20 or more years by more than a large margin.
They can say that it was a "sting" operation gone wrong or whatever excuse they want to make but the fact of the matter is that arms are by far our biggest export and the U.S is always trying to make a buck on it in as many ways as possible, this time they just didn't cover thier asses enough.
Hell, after a war the guns used by american soldiers aren't even shipped back to the states because they claim it would cost too much to ship them back over. So instead they pretend to turn the other cheek while the guns are sold to black market dealers who put them in the hands of the higest bidder.
There is a movie called Lord of War I am sure alot of people have seen that pretty much shows how black market gun running is operated and the United States heavy involvement in it. Pretty good movie too.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 Likes: 1 |
These drugs cartels have millions and millions of dollars---probably billions---with that kind of cash they are going to get someone to sell them arms-----no matter what we do.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 Likes: 516
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 Likes: 516 |
Quote:
These drugs cartels have millions and millions of dollars---probably billions---with that kind of cash they are going to get someone to sell them arms-----no matter what we do.
Correct.
However, blaming it on the u.s. is just one more step towards even MORE legislation dealing with guns. That's all well and good, until you stop and realize that more legislation hurts who???? The law abiding citizen.
The criminals? The drug cartels, the "any bad guy" people? They'll still have guns.
It is illegal to use a gun to murder someone (murder - not self defense, okay). Yet it happens every day.
It is a mandatory 7 years if a gun is even SHOWN during a robbery. But it happens every day.
It is illegal to sell a gun to a felon - but felons get guns every day.
On and on and on.
We have enough gun laws. 1 more or 100 more won't stop the problem.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,133 Likes: 1050
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,133 Likes: 1050 |
This is just another in a long list of ATF screwups. All they do is come up with dangerously crazy plans where people get murdered, trying for the big media story that will justify their existance. That organization is not needed and should be shut down. The FBI and the CIA already have the authority to do what the ATF does.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 250
2nd String
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2nd String
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 250 |
The Mexican Drug Lords get most of their U.S. weapons from Mexican soldiers (who sell them or are paid to change sides) or buying them from arms dealers. They buy most of their RPG's, AK's and explosives from arms dealers too.
Why buy bolt action or semi auto rifles one at a time. It is too easy for these Drug dealers to buy their fully automatic weapons in the total numbers needed all at once.
No Emoticans were harmed in the writing of this response.
Ted Nugent said,"that Davy Crockett shooting at Santa Anna's Army was the right thing to do, he just wouldn't get the Hispanic vote today".
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,853 Likes: 159
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,853 Likes: 159 |
Quote:
This is just another in a long list of ATF screwups. All they do is come up with dangerously crazy plans where people get murdered, trying for the big media story that will justify their existance. That organization is not needed and should be shut down. The FBI and the CIA already have the authority to do what the ATF does.
I can't argue that. I'm not exactly sure why we need redundent agencies. Seems like a big waste of money.
Still, it wouldn't be so bad if they were effective. But they screw up so often that it just makes you wonder.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum How did the drug lords in Mexico
get all of those American guns?
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