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I've often wanted to track it - I think another thing that makes me "think" on-line is worse is that typically I see people play a lot worse hands on-line than I do live. More bad beats that way which in turn might make you think there are better hands on-line. Between a casino and on-line I'm not sure if you play more hands or not - they deal pretty fast. The shuffle is the only part that takes a little bit of time, but that only adds a few seconds.
I play more on-line (or I guess played) than at the casino but it would be interesting to have some data to compare.
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I had a 3rd party parse program for PartyPoker. It would track all the people you played, what hands they won with. What starting cards you've won and lost with sorted by table position. It helped me see where I was losing the most of my money so I could learn to stay away from them. It also help teach you about odds and how many outs you would have so on.
I defiantly see more good hands being won online than live. And I'm not talking about playing with family and friends where people are taking smoke/bathroom breaks. In a casino if you get up to go to the bathroom they still deal the cards. And people love to let the timer on online games get down to around 5 seconds before they bet/fold.
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Pokerstars blocked a lot of those programs - especially those that gave odds/outs. I keep notes on players (or did) as best I could. The same people play the same buy-in tourney's usually so knowing I've played them before and what happened is very helpful.
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Not for nothin, but I question why anyone would risk thier hard earned money with Online gambling?
I mean, it's way to easy to get ripped off. OK, so you win, now what? What if the place doesn't deposit your winnings. What are you gonna do? Hop in the car and go knock thier door down? Ha! I'm betting that if the plan is to rip you off, they are prepared for your visit.
Are you even 100% sure you know where thier door is?
#GMSTRONG
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I'm pretty sure PartyPoker blocked them later as well. I stopped playing for real money when PartyPoker first got served notice years ago (4-5 years ago??). They had a big notice when you logged in telling you that "All American Customers could no longer play for real $$". They obviously found a way around it but I didn't play for real money on line anymore after that. I had over $200 in my PartyPoker account that I never got but I wasn't too mad because I only started with $20 and gained that on $.50/$1 games with pot limit.
I've heard all of the ways around by transferring money from here to there but I knew eventually it would come to this so I didn't bother. I'll play free online on the PC/PS3 and live at casino's. Can't wait for the Cleveland Casino to open!!
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Absolutely. I just went through a dry spell - lost about $500 in the last week playing 27-60 dollar buy-in tourney's. Had a great week the week before. Some of these on-line guys, as was stated above, have lost 1M on a single hand. I still do not believe it is possible, even with software, for a single person to play 30+ tables at once - I think it is a team of people playing on one account.
It's absolutely possible for someone to play 30+ tables at once, although that is really starting to push the limit on what is practical. There also isn't a way that I can think of for multiple people to play that many tables on one account because the decisions come so quickly that they really have to be fired off in rapid succession.
There are 3 main ways to arrange the tables... tile, cascade, and stack. In my later days I was a fan of playing relatively few tables tiled so I could see all the action as it happens. Of course, 'relatively few' might mean 6 or so, but even in 6-max games that action came pretty slow when most of the decisions, by volume, is simply folding or raising preflop.
Cascade mostly got replaced by stack. Stack is exactly what it sounds like, a bunch of tables placed directly on top of each other. Poker site software evolved over the years in such a way that made this very practical, i.e. you would get a beep when a decision on another table came up, but the one on top remained so until you made that decision. For most of the basic preflop folding, raising, and 3-betting, this wouldn't be much of a problem. Of course bigger, tougher decisions on later streets would present a bigger problem, but suffice it to say you aren't going to be playing perfect poker all the time with that many tables. I didn't do this often fwiw.
But still, a lot of the midstakes grinders on pokerstars were playing in the 12-24 table range, I knew of some of these guys personally and they were all 100% legit. It's an acquired skill of sorts. These were also 6-max tables and you could probably play almost double at full ring and have a similar effect. I thought tables were capped at 24 (i.e. the software wouldn't allow you to play more) at pokerstars, but they could have raised that further recently. I honestly don't know.
Pretty much all the regs used software like pokertracker 3 to keep track of winners/losers, and to give a HUD of basic stats like VP$P, PFR, 3b%, etc. I could give a more detailed description of all that but it's sort of a moot point now. As well, some of the mega-tablers would use something called the bet pot auto-hotkey script where they were of course still making all the decisions, but it could be re-programmed through the mouse. For example, wheel button = fold, side mouse button = 3xBB raise, or something of the sorts. This would reduce mouse/click time considerably.
Cliffs notes: playing 30 tables, within the confines of the rules and ethics of poker would be very possible by 1 person
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Not for nothin, but I question why anyone would risk thier hard earned money with Online gambling?
I mean, it's way to easy to get ripped off. OK, so you win, now what? What if the place doesn't deposit your winnings. What are you gonna do? Hop in the car and go knock thier door down? Ha! I'm betting that if the plan is to rip you off, they are prepared for your visit.
Are you even 100% sure you know where thier door is?
Well most sites are pretty big (UFC, NFL WSoP Sponsors), they take a rake from the Pot and that is where they make their money. Why would they risk their business by not paying people and word of mouth travels around that the site doesn't pay out. Then no comes to the site anymore and there is no pots for them to take a rake from.
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General reply to the 'rigged' comments:
Simply, 10s of billions of hands have been datamined and suffice to say, everything is legit. Any disturbing trends would have showed up years ago.
As well, right now even after U.S. players have been banned, there are currently 240,000 players across 34,000 tables on pokerstars. Every single table is raked (cash games) or there's an entry fee (tournaments, sit n goes). Think about that... 34,000 tables constantly collecting rake. Why in the world would the site have to then 'jack' up the hands? It's a perfect business model as is. Besides, rake is capped anyway. They make more money by increasing the volume of hands generally, which is why over the years they've introduced fast tables, streamlined the software, etc. More hands = more $
The reality is that a lot of live winners just can't compete online. I know this will be an inflammatory statement but it has absolutely been my observation. Players in bars, home games, and in most casinos are just so bad and have such little grasp on the game that when they go online into the much more sharky, tight/aggressive games, they really don't have much of a chance, and that's related entirely to player skill.
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Legend
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Not for nothin, but I question why anyone would risk thier hard earned money with Online gambling?
I mean, it's way to easy to get ripped off. OK, so you win, now what? What if the place doesn't deposit your winnings. What are you gonna do? Hop in the car and go knock thier door down? Ha! I'm betting that if the plan is to rip you off, they are prepared for your visit.
Are you even 100% sure you know where thier door is?
Well most sites are pretty big (UFC, NFL WSoP Sponsors), they take a rake from the Pot and that is where they make their money. Why would they risk their business by not paying people and word of mouth travels around that the site doesn't pay out. Then no comes to the site anymore and there is no pots for them to take a rake from.
Be that as it may, I work too hard for my money.. so if I'm going to lose it gambling, I wanna see the face of the person that beat me 
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Players in bars, home games, and in most casinos are just so bad and have such little grasp on the game that when they go online into the much more sharky, tight/aggressive games, they really don't have much of a chance, and that's related entirely to player skill.
Amen ! Amen ! and Amen ! Alot of people make the mistake that they are far better than what they are . I kinda compare it to golf . There are alot of very good golfers out there and as long as they are playing with the same level of competition then they remain good . Step up in competition and they get spanked. I love the guys who claim that Hold 'em is all luck .
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I've often wanted to track it - I think another thing that makes me "think" on-line is worse is that typically I see people play a lot worse hands on-line than I do live. More bad beats that way which in turn might make you think there are better hands on-line. Between a casino and on-line I'm not sure if you play more hands or not - they deal pretty fast. The shuffle is the only part that takes a little bit of time, but that only adds a few seconds.
I play more on-line (or I guess played) than at the casino but it would be interesting to have some data to compare.
30 hands or so per hour is about the average in a casino.
Many online tables (6max especially) can be north of 100 hands/hour, factor in multitabling and you can get a truly impressive amount of hands per hour in.
Add in selective memory and the typical macho attitude of everybody thinking they are an exceptional player, and it seems everybody thinks they are running bad and a lot of people claiming it's rigged 
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Players in bars, home games, and in most casinos are just so bad and have such little grasp on the game that when they go online into the much more sharky, tight/aggressive games, they really don't have much of a chance, and that's related entirely to player skill.
Amen ! Amen ! and Amen ! Alot of people make the mistake that they are far better than what they are . I kinda compare it to golf . There are alot of very good golfers out there and as long as they are playing with the same level of competition then they remain good . Step up in competition and they get spanked. I love the guys who claim that Hold 'em is all luck .
Very good point.. and I'll add that variance really obscures this in the short-term poker-wise. E.g. play against a group of PGA tour guys, and unless you're REALLY good, you're going to get crushed every time. But even the worst droolers can run up a stack even on the best tables.. yet when you <a href="www.pokertableratings.com" target="_blank">PTR</a> them their graph might steadily go down (with the occasional spike/heater showing up)
edit: PTR = www.pokertableratings.com
And no I'm not going to give out my screenname 
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Add in selective memory and the typical macho attitude of everybody thinking they are an exceptional player
Thanks for your insight; enjoyed reading it. I guess I know it's possible to play that many tables I just must be too stupid to do it. I play for fun, these folks are more doing it as a job I guess. If it was my job I suppose I'd figure it out 
I have found that I do much better at the casinos than on-line. I would agree that the players there are typically a lot worse. Most are VERY impatient. I was playing with my GF in Charleston on a 1/2 cash table and a guy sat down that you could just tell thought he was Gods gift to poker. My girl is a pretty good player and can be very aggressive. We'd been at the table for a while and the guy next to me knew the guy that just sat down and leaned over to me and said "watch, your girl is going to take all of his money". Sure enough, within about an hour she cleaned him out.
The first hand he sat down she bluffed the crap out of him and showed - I'm not a big fan of showing my cards ever, but I might have to this guy as he seemed very easily tilted. He didn't think women could play is what it boils down to. About 10 minutes later my GF gets pocket kings on BB. This guy is on the button and pre-flop raises into her $15 likely trying to steal the $3 blinds. She goes all in (with about $450 in her stack at this point) thinking he just might bite due to the last beat. He hems and haws, tells her "sweetheart you can't bluff me twice" to which she answers "sure I can, you don't have the guts to call me". The guy is furious now, calls her with a freaking Q 10 off suit. He didn't have $450 to call but she still got 200 out of it. Then, to really tick him off, she got up and cashed out. And all the people at the table that knew him were ragging on him big time as they knew how much he hated losing to women.
I play pretty tight and watching my GF play is totally out of the realm of how I play so it is pretty difficult. That is what is so cool about poker - there are so many different styles but all can win. I guess her aggressiveness comes from my normally paying for the buy-in
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Funny story . I have also seen many times "poker Gods " call with what they KNEW to be a bad hand and catch runner runner for a straight,flush etc.. now that is infuriating to me. The logic they use is always the same .
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Thanks for your insight; enjoyed reading it. I guess I know it's possible to play that many tables I just must be too stupid to do it. I play for fun, these folks are more doing it as a job I guess. If it was my job I suppose I'd figure it out
No problem.. I'm glad you enjoyed it. The macho comment wasn't at all directed at you, just in general as I've never met any guy who has played more than once who was a bad player
I don't agree with the 'too stupid' comment... the skills involved with poker are far more specific than most people realize. A generally smart person can't just come in and start beating decent players without knowing specifically what to do and how to play. It's one of those easy to learn, much harder to master type things. A lot of people don't get much past the 'learn the game' part though.
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I have found that I do much better at the casinos than on-line. I would agree that the players there are typically a lot worse. Most are VERY impatient. I was playing with my GF in Charleston on a 1/2 cash table and a guy sat down that you could just tell thought he was Gods gift to poker. My girl is a pretty good player and can be very aggressive. We'd been at the table for a while and the guy next to me knew the guy that just sat down and leaned over to me and said "watch, your girl is going to take all of his money". Sure enough, within about an hour she cleaned him out.
The first hand he sat down she bluffed the crap out of him and showed - I'm not a big fan of showing my cards ever, but I might have to this guy as he seemed very easily tilted. He didn't think women could play is what it boils down to. About 10 minutes later my GF gets pocket kings on BB. This guy is on the button and pre-flop raises into her $15 likely trying to steal the $3 blinds. She goes all in (with about $450 in her stack at this point) thinking he just might bite due to the last beat. He hems and haws, tells her "sweetheart you can't bluff me twice" to which she answers "sure I can, you don't have the guts to call me". The guy is furious now, calls her with a freaking Q 10 off suit. He didn't have $450 to call but she still got 200 out of it. Then, to really tick him off, she got up and cashed out. And all the people at the table that knew him were ragging on him big time as they knew how much he hated losing to women.
That's pretty funny. I can totally see it going down too. The especially bad part is that QTo is a pretty horrible all-in hand and even if your GF was "bluffing", she very well might have still had the best hand. As it was.. she was an 86% favorite
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I play pretty tight and watching my GF play is totally out of the realm of how I play so it is pretty difficult. That is what is so cool about poker - there are so many different styles but all can win. I guess her aggressiveness comes from my normally paying for the buy-in
Yeah, there are definitely different styles of players out there. The most consistently successful in deepish stacked no limit ring games tends to revolve around tight/aggressive play... that is, playing relatively few hands, but tending to play them aggressively (raising when first to enter the pot, 3-betting pre, playing back post-flop), or folding early in the hand when the pot is small.
There's also a very big positional component there. For example, I play fairly tightly in early position but relentlessly on my button, and to a lesser extent, the cutoff, but that's pretty typical from solid players. I just like to crank it up a notch 
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I play fairly tightly in early position but relentlessly on my button, and to a lesser extent, the cutoff,
Don't you find that doing that against weaker players usually means that after a while they broaden their range to infinity ?
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I play fairly tightly in early position but relentlessly on my button, and to a lesser extent, the cutoff,
Don't you find that doing that against weaker players usually means that after a while they broaden their range to infinity ?
Can you be a little more specific? I'm assuming that you mean when it's folded to my button, I raise, and the "weaker" player is in one of the blinds?
I put "weaker" in quotations because depending on the exact situation, it can be that the generally weaker player might respond better, if only by accident, but I'm curious as to what exactly you are asking.
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Also, just to be a nit, you can't expand your range past 100% anyway but I do like the word... poker is far more about ranges than it is specific hands.
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I'm assuming that you mean when it's folded to my button, I raise, and the "weaker" player is in one of the blinds?
Yes exactly . I run into the " I don't like my blinds stolen so I called you with 3 5 off for 7 times the big blind" type player. Using position in the game I play every week isn't as useful as IMO it should be . Maybe I just play with people who have that calling instinct .
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General reply to the 'rigged' comments:
Simply, 10s of billions of hands have been datamined and suffice to say, everything is legit. Any disturbing trends would have showed up years ago.
As well, right now even after U.S. players have been banned, there are currently 240,000 players across 34,000 tables on pokerstars. Every single table is raked (cash games) or there's an entry fee (tournaments, sit n goes). Think about that... 34,000 tables constantly collecting rake. Why in the world would the site have to then 'jack' up the hands? It's a perfect business model as is. Besides, rake is capped anyway. They make more money by increasing the volume of hands generally, which is why over the years they've introduced fast tables, streamlined the software, etc. More hands = more $
The reality is that a lot of live winners just can't compete online. I know this will be an inflammatory statement but it has absolutely been my observation. Players in bars, home games, and in most casinos are just so bad and have such little grasp on the game that when they go online into the much more sharky, tight/aggressive games, they really don't have much of a chance, and that's related entirely to player skill.
That's a bunch of nonsense in my opinion. Playing online is a different game. Doesn't mean most of the players online are better than live. To me poker is meant to be played live at a casino. It's all about getting the tells, and feeling your opponent out. I'm not pro by any stretch, but I've got enough experience to hold my own against most. To be good, you have to stay away from tendencies for the most part, and be able to get a feel for your opponent. Some patience, and basic math helps as well. You play in a casino long enough you see all styles. Go down to biloxi at the hard rock where they serve free drinks. Some of the wildest poker you will ever see. Or go to tunica in mississippi. Some real sharks out there.
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The closest casino to Columbus is Wheeling, WV. You can get there in about 1.5 hours. The Hollywood casino is the second closest, about 2 hours.
My work takes me through Charleston, WV so I end up playing at the Mardi Gras casino there most of the time. I'll probably be stopping by there Thursday night this week.
Yea I went to Wheeling Island about 4 times back in 09. I would take turns going to the hollywood one night, and down to wheeling island a days later. People at work thought I was crazy. The players were too tight down in wheeling. I'm a grinder, and having a bunch of tight players doesn't help with my style. I won all 4 times, but only managed to win about 400 bucks.
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I'm assuming that you mean when it's folded to my button, I raise, and the "weaker" player is in one of the blinds?
Yes exactly . I run into the " I don't like my blinds stolen so I called you with 3 5 off for 7 times the big blind" type player. Using position in the game I play every week isn't as useful as IMO it should be . Maybe I just play with people who have that calling instinct .
You have to adapt your button opening ranges depending on many factors (game type, stack sizes, etc) and this of course includes who is in the big blind, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the small blind as well.
Calling a button open from the blinds with 35o is never going to be a good play and should basically always be -EV, even if the button is min-raising 100% of hands. 53o is only 36% vs a random hand and pot odds do not make up for the positional disadvantage in this case.
vs a looser player or loose players to your left, one could easily adapt by tightening up their button range and making larger raises, although we may have some disagreement as to what consititutes what. For example in TAggy online games I might qualify that as something like opening 50% of buttons to 3xBB or so, whereas with a couple nits that are poor playing out of position without the initiative you might be able to raise 90% of hands for 2-2.5x and simply run them over.
As well, in a game where there are EXTREMELY loose players to your left (as in, approaching any 2), you could easily tighten this up a bit further, keeping in mind that you are playing in position against 2 random hands against poor players so your value range is actually quite wide. If you want to take it 5x and they are still calling out of position with any 2, even better.
When dealing with such wide opening ranges you really have to give a great deal of thought to post-flop play. You don't want to be the guy that blindly throws out a continuation bet when checked to on every flop, because thinking players can exploit this easily by manipulating their own check/call, check/raise, and check/folding ranges (you can add leading out to this as well). Instead you can do something like, and this is grossly oversimplified, betting your best 30% of hands, your worst x% of hands, and checking back somewhat stable hands that have showdown value but cannot withstand a ton of pressure. So say you raise Q3s to 2.5xBB and get called by the SB, BB folds, and the flop comes out KQ5, he checks to you, this is probalby a good spot to check back. The idea here would be to play a smallish pot, let him fire a barrel or 2, etc. You don't want to be agressively putting money in the pot vs a king, better queen, get check-raised off your hand by someone playing a gutshot agressively, etc.
Position gives you a big advantage in that you have more information to work with, and you can easily manipulate the pot size and/or take a free card when checked to. My manipulating this you can play big pots with big hands and put massive pressure on with the occasional bluff, while getting to showdown relatively easily with weakish/mid-strength hands. You really have to use all of this to your advantage because the button is always the most profitable position in hold'em.
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That's a bunch of nonsense in my opinion. Playing online is a different game. Doesn't mean most of the players online are better than live. To me poker is meant to be played live at a casino. It's all about getting the tells, and feeling your opponent out. I'm not pro by any stretch, but I've got enough experience to hold my own against most. To be good, you have to stay away from tendencies for the most part, and be able to get a feel for your opponent. Some patience, and basic math helps as well. You play in a casino long enough you see all styles. Go down to biloxi at the hard rock where they serve free drinks. Some of the wildest poker you will ever see. Or go to tunica in mississippi. Some real sharks out there.
There are some differences between live and online play, no doubt.
I stand by my assertion that as a whole, online players have a better grasp of poker fundamentals than live play. We'll say that I have a good deal of experience with both. 1/2 NL is typically the lowest game spread at a casino, and if you play in a 1/2 live game, it's pretty common to see something like this: a few fish that limp in and play anything reasonable (or any hand, really) and call with any piece of the flop, a couple old nits that fold for hours then make massive bets with the near nuts, and a couple decent players that might actually have a clue as to what htey are doing.
Sit at a 1/2 NL game on stars or FTP, and it might look something like this: 5 tight/aggressive multi-tabling regulars that have been playing for years, pre-flop strategies sort of merge together and none are making big mistakes preflop, still exploitable to an extent but factoring in rake, generally not very profitable to play against. Perhaps 1 fish on a good table, and even the fish have learned and adapted to an extent over the 7+ years that online poker has existed.
I attribute this to 2 major things.. 1 is that there are so many resources online to improve your game, like forums, instructional video sites, etc. And to the drooler playing 75% of his hands, simply folding half of those will take him from a massive donator to a 'just' a fish.
Now, live has its own skill set as it relates to tells and what not, I just tend to think *MOST* people overrate them in a big way (again, I've played both...). There are legit tells to look for and Caro's book of tells was one of the earlier resources in that department. Cliffs notes: acting weak = strong, acting strong = weak. There are some others (e.g. uncontrollably heavy breathing after a bet...)
So if you prefer the live game, that's great, if you say they are different to an extent, I agree, but I still stand by my assertion that the average online player is way better than your average live player assuming we are keeping stakes somewhat consistent.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,405 |
Bump
j/c
I was able to log into my poker stars account last night and was able to withdraw my money (had $188) that was unreachable after the DOJ shut them down to US players. If you are a US player and have money in your account, log in using the game software, go to cashier summary and it will tell you exactly how to get your money. You can get a check / e-check or wire transfer for a fee. I want to commend Poker Stars for doing this.
They have always been 1st class. When I had an issue in the past when I reported a collusion incident they investigated fully. They determined I was correct in noticing the betting irregularities between 2 players and ran back through their history. Those layers where suspended and table mates were refunded tournament fees.
So anyway to those who have money in P-Stars...login and go get your money!!!
"My signature line goes here."
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647 |
Quote:
A friend of mine does rather well for himself playing online poker. Wins thousands here and there, generally only loses a few hundred before he calls it quits. Always comes out ahead. Any time we play in person I usually take all his money, but I can't even win enough on a regular basis on a free site to be willing to risk playing for money online. They are definitely two different animals.
theoretically, you should do even better than him because you beat him IRL. you'd think. that should only help your game--you're able to beat a dude who does well online...that's pretty epic.
that being said, you're probably smart in not trusting online sites. I had my iTunes account hacked by a Chinese guy who wanted my funds to play a Chinese version of online poker. Luckily it was just a gift card and my cc info was not on there.
Go Browns!
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