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Especially since the rationale for going into Libya is as weak or weaker than the other two wars we're in. Just where are all of these "passionate" protesters and politicians and their outrage? They've been strangely silent on this issue, unlike their constant rants about it before Obama was elected. Is it suddenly acceptable now that we have a democrat in office? foxbusiness/stossel The anti-war movement was all over the news before President Obama was elected. But apparently they weren’t really anti-war ... they were just anti-President Bush. Two college professors just released a study of national protests between 2007 and 2009. What did they find? … After January 2007, the attendance at antiwar rallies [measured in] roughly the tens of thousands, or thousands, through the end of 2008. … After the election of Barack Obama as president, the order of magnitude of antiwar protests dropped [...] Organizers were hard pressed to stage a rally with participation in the thousands, or even in the hundreds. For example, we counted exactly 107 participants at a Chicago rally on October 7, 2009. Amazing. Especially because the war in Afghanistan ramped up after Obama was elected. American fatalities shot up in 2009 and 2010. The protesters have remained silent over Libya. And I’m struck by the hypocrisy of the supposedly “anti-war” politicians who voted against Iraq, like Nancy Pelosi. Since Obama was elected, she has voted to continue the war in Afghanistan … and supported the attack on Libya. Only a handful of Congressmen have remained principled on foreign intervention. One of them is Ron Paul. On my FBN show this week, I’ll talk with him about why he opposes our “aggressive foreign policy.” Thursday at 10pm EST.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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Just goes to show it's all political,...
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Being from the center, I have to agree with you... fairweather protestors.
I don't care if it's Bush or Obama, I'd like to see all the troops home. The only way we win any wars in the middle east is via Facebook or nukes anyway.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 04/25/11 05:58 PM.
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I (mostly) stopped posting in political threads months ago.
I am 100% against this Libya crap. They launched 100+ tomahawks into Libya IIRC the first night. That is so much freaking money to set on fire.
I'll now resume my self-granted leave from political threads.
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I want to know where all the news media outlets (and message board posters as well) went that would list names and faces of every single solder that died ... you know, "in honor of our fallen heros", and not for any sort of hidden political agenda. 
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well, the austin station that carries NPR (KUT) reports on them whenever a soldier from Texas is killed. they always give the total number of casualties and the number who are from Texas (about 10-15%).
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Didn't you just say you were leaving?  
There are no sacred cows.
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I dont necessarily think it's a political thing and that Democrats are now ok with war because Obama is in the white house. I think people are just becoming complacent. Especially after Obama was elected and nothing changed. It's as if there is nothing people can do because things don't change.
Sometimes I feel my generation is going to be able to change the cycle (though I'm sure plenty of other people have felt the same). It just seems like we have seen a lot more in this political game and have seen one relatively universally hated president for most of our 'matured' life and are seeing everything he did wrong continued, maybe worse.
Who knows though, we'll probably end up sittin' back and just try to get paid.
Wise words spoken by sages
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I think it's more than just being anti-(*insert the candidate you don't support here*). I think many Americans eventually realize their voice means didly squat to those who "represent" their 'best interests'.
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The timing is too suspect and the sudden cessation of protests indicate that it was more than a gradual change of heart, imho.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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There have been a few protests .... but it's been very few.
There are a (very) few groups who are still protesting ... but it is a very small percentage of those who did so before the election.
People like Sheehan shup up as soon as Obama was elected. She "retired" or some such BS ... and damn near the entire movement retired with her.
Of course it was political.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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It goes both ways --
The Obama crowd and their ilk are for the most part biting their tongues on this one, if they're even smart enough to recognize their hypocrisy.
On the flip side, you can tune into Hannity and Rush and hear them recycle the many arguments against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, though suddenly now they're presenting them, rather than dismissing them.
It's all a political game.
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I've never listened to Hannity in my life.
I catch Rush for 5 to 20 minutes at a time - usually with at least an hour "break" in between, meaning I catch perhaps 15 minutes a day, perhaps an hour tops. From what little I've heard of Rush, I don't think he's attacking the war - he's attacking the guy (O) that said he was going to end the war. And hasn't.
Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you listen to Rush much more than I do.
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I was referring to Libya.
Both guys have trotted out the 2003 arguments against the Iraq War - at time almost verbatim. I'm sure they're more than aware of the irony, but they know where the bread is buttered.
I catch about a half hour or so of Limbaugh on average -- the guy is one of the best there's ever been in talk radio.
Hannity's kind of an idiot. Both provide laughs, though Rush is certainly worth paying attention to -- he's quite adept at his craft.
But anyway, yeah, they've done quite a bit of screaming about Obama's Libya follies ... the same follies that they dismissed in '03 with angled rhetoric.
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I've always believed in the media keeping their mouths shut while we have troops on the ground. You're only helping the enemy. Abhu Graib, the kill teams, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.......these things should be dealt with but not publicized until after the war, not during it.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Sure, but we are talking about large numbers of protestors, not 2 or 3 radio talking heads.
Politically motivated, yes it is, but not just among a couple media types. Back to the original point, these people were not protesting the war, but the president.
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Quote:
I've always believed in the media keeping their mouths shut while we have troops on the ground. You're only helping the enemy. Abhu Graib, the kill teams, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.......these things should be dealt with but not publicized until after the war, not during it.
So you're in favor of stifling free speech in order to sweep murder and torture under the rug?
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Back to the original point, these people were not protesting the war, but the president.
Exactly.
These Tea Party people moaning about wanting their country back don't care about government spending. They didn't care when their guy jacked it. They worship Reagan for jacking it.They just don't like the stuffy black guy with the funny name.
And the other side didn't like the idiot blue-blood Texan. If Clinton invaded Iraq, he'd be revered in the way the other side thinks of Bush.
No one really cares about the issues. They just care about their side winning.
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Sorry .... but I want spending cut back.
I wanted it cut back when Bush was spending like crazy ... and I want it cut back now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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I've always believed in the media keeping their mouths shut while we have troops on the ground. You're only helping the enemy. Abhu Graib, the kill teams, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.......these things should be dealt with but not publicized until after the war, not during it.
So you're in favor of stifling free speech in order to sweep murder and torture under the rug?
I have no problem publicizing anything at such a time that it won't aid our enemy or prolong a war. The consequences of delaying release of this information until after the war is miniscule compared to releasing it before the outcome is decided.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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I think it's more than just being anti-(*insert the candidate you don't support here*). I think many Americans eventually realize their voice means didly squat to those who "represent" their 'best interests'.
This ^. I've grown apathetic, I no longer care enough to be outraged. My 18th birthday was September 15th, 2001 and I promptly signed my name to serve because of 9/11 that had literally just happened. Had that 18 year old kid been replaced by my current self, I would laugh at the thought and go about my day. I've come to realize that it doesn't matter if I care or not, but it causes me a lot more grief if I do.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Quickly approaching 10 years of constant war (October 2011) will make most people complacent.
When you think about a 5th grader, all he has known his entire life has been America at war.
If you figure that until at least 2nd grade your not really aware of those things(unless you have a family member serving), so any senior in high school, all they remember about the world is we have been in wars.
A decade of war. The terrorists are getting what they wanted, America in economic and patriotic despair.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 04/26/11 07:57 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
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I've always believed in the media keeping their mouths shut while we have troops on the ground. You're only helping the enemy. Abhu Graib, the kill teams, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.......these things should be dealt with but not publicized until after the war, not during it.
So you're in favor of stifling free speech in order to sweep murder and torture under the rug?
Did he say he wants to sweep it under the rug?
yebat' Putin
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My favorite is now we are in Libya and the circumstances in Syria are similar but we can't do the same thing in Syria because "it's different"... people are protesting, government is shooting its own people.. how is Syria different? Other than they would get a lot more support from other Muslim nations... 
yebat' Putin
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My favorite is now we are in Libya and the circumstances in Syria are similar but we can't do the same thing in Syria because "it's different"... people are protesting, government is shooting its own people.. how is Syria different? Other than they would get a lot more support from other Muslim nations...
Libya begins with a "L" and Syria begins with a "S", duh.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
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Yeah ... we did "A"fganistan first and "I"raq second ... we're going alphabetically. 
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I personally feel as though it's all a sad, sick joke.
Nothing we say matters to anyone in power, nothing we do matters to anyone in power - Afghanistan is a garbage fire and if we left tomorrow it wouldn't be soon enough, 50,000 troops in Iraq is 50,000 too many, Libya/Any other Middle East country means nothing to me and we don't belong there. People all over the region still hate us, Afghanistan get's worse by the day, their is no benefit to be had by their oil - what has the last decade meant?
Bush, Obama - makes no difference. It's a joke. Bush clearly wasn't as bad as I thought him to be; Obama clearly wasn't and won't be as good as I hoped he'd be.... but what good does protesting do? No one listens.
Pull everyone out of everywhere, bring them home, let the natives fight away or let someone else put their sons and daughters in harms way and let our military defend this country.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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Free speech in time of war gets our soldiers killed. Do you remember reporters asking questions like "Can you tell us exactly where this unit is right now? Can you tell us exactly what time the attack will take place?". Morons.
There was a Congressman in WW2 that told an audience "Don't worry about your sons and husbands on American submarines. The japanese are setting their depth charges too shallow, they are safe." US submarine losses went up drastically about two weeks after this speech, and stayed up till the end of the war. Considering the ammo and supplies delivered by transport ships that were not sunk by submarines that had been destroyed, this idiot is personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of US servicemen.
I would have put him up against a wall and had him shot.
This particular unit does not have enough body armor. That unit does not have enough mine detectors. Explosive detectors cannot detect this explosive, or through that material. The sentries over here are not as alert as they should be because of this or that social issue.
Were the Anthrax spores effectively weaponized or not? What steps are necessary to make them more lethal? Where and how can more spores be obtained?
A local radio station a while back got a bomb threat to a school. They went on about how the idiot was identified through caller ID, and said something about using a pay phone.. I was furious. "Why are you telling these people how NOT to get caught? Are they doing a BAD thing, or a GOOD thing? Do you want MORE, or LESS of this activity? S T F U!"
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Free speech in time of war gets our soldiers killed.
So we are fighting to protect freedom of speech that we can't use while we are fighting?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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It's called using it responsibly.
We have the right to bare arms too, but that doesn't mean we can shoot them around recklessly and put other people's lives in danger. Why shouldn't that apply to free speech as well?
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You do NOT have the right to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Doing so puts others at risk. There are limits.
Some of the stuff that is suppressed will be questionable. Asking questions afterwards is generally considered preferable to burying your family and being forced to learn a foreign language. Or being dead.
CIVILIANS (us) need to be careful about what they speak freely so as not to endanger SOLDIERS fighting and dying to protect those freedoms. Has anybody tried to shoot you or blow you up today?
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Has anybody tried to shoot you or blow you up today?
Not yet, but my day has just started so.......
On a side note, I am not totally sure that these wars we are currently fighting have anything to do with our freedom here in America.
And the longer they go on, the worse off we will be. At this point, there is no resolution in our favor, and as we move forward, resolution grows even less and less favorable.
Al-Qaida began this as a war of attrition against us, and while we are spending billions, they are living in caves, in tribal lands, and living fairly meager lives. They are basically letting us destroy ourselves.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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You did see those tall buildings come down, right?
The Russians used to think many of the same things. You know what? Most people just want more and better stuff. Americans have more and better stuff. You can either try to take it by force, or try to become more like us.
The Cold War was won as much, if not more so, by Nintendos and VCR's than by Star Wars and Stealth technology. The average Soviet citizen became tired of having such crappy stuff. Afghanistan showed that their army was not all-powerful.
You could say the same thing is happening to US forces, but we do not depend on the military to keep our citizens happy. We depend on making it possible for everyone to pursue more and better stuff, and even let them choose what particular stuff that might be.
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Quote:
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I've always believed in the media keeping their mouths shut while we have troops on the ground. You're only helping the enemy. Abhu Graib, the kill teams, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.......these things should be dealt with but not publicized until after the war, not during it.
So you're in favor of stifling free speech in order to sweep murder and torture under the rug?
Did he say he wants to sweep it under the rug?
How else would one describe advocating the media 'keep it's mouth shut' about 'Abu Ghraib, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.'?
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How else would one describe advocating the media 'keep it's mouth shut' about 'Abu Ghraib, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.'?
The way he intended it.. to deal with it internally.
yebat' Putin
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Comment?
Are you saying that new ipad's and nintendo ngp's are going to win the war on terror?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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How else would one describe advocating the media 'keep it's mouth shut' about 'Abu Ghraib, the goings on at Gitmo, etc.'?
The way he intended it.. to deal with it internally.
So, to sweep it under the rug?
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Well, when you are dealing with people living in mud huts, you have to start a bit smaller.
A Rug. A Light Bulb. A Dishwasher. Something better than a rock to wash clothes with. Grocery stores that actually have food to sell.
That last is worth mentioning, in the past when Soviet defectors came to America, they were amazed by the cars, clothing, buildings, but they could not believe the grocery stores. It usually took some time to convince them that this was here all the time, and anybody who wanted to could come in and buy whatever they want, whenever they want. Food is the most basic stuff.
Take your average 12-year-old Afghani kid, hand him an AK-47 and a PSP, with no adults around, and see which one he plays with more.
Sooner or later the people will realize that their leaders are wasting scarce resources simply for their own personal power, and that their policies will not result in them getting more stuff. This is largely what is going on across the Middle East right now.
There is an old saying that "You can ignore the masses for a long time, they are largely powerless, but when their bellies get empty, they are a force to be reckoned with."
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Yeah ... we did "A"fganistan first and "I"raq second ... we're going alphabetically
Yemen is so screwed . . .
I have to agree with the point TI84, and others, are making about the apathetic nature of the citizens however I can't help but feel that ideology plays a part.
Getting slapped in the face by Bush is intolerable, while getting slapped by Obama is somehow being perceived by the left as being just deserts. (oh well . . . Bush did it too . . . )
And the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan drained what little life they had left, and history does have a tendency to repeat itself.
I say close all of the over 700 military installations overseas except a handful of strategic ones in the Pacific, Atlantic and Mediterranean (maybe 6-7). Bring all those personnel home--reopen old installations, or expand existing ones (build new if we have to) That should inject some life in our economy.
Seal off the borders, subject all inbound flights from overseas to higher scrutiny--stop the tsa from molesting kids and people with colostomy bags. (keep the riff raff out first--the 19 hijackers were not US citizens)
Take some of the savings from the money being currently allocated to the war effort/overseas bases and put it into taking care of returning vets both physically and mentally.
This wont solve all our problems--foreign policy-wise--but I think it is a step in the right direction to keep us safe while not bankrupting our nation.
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I'm at the "screw foreign policy" step,...all your other ideas are quite solid.
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