I looked and saw Heavens door open in the sky I saw the things that were to come, the evils that were nigh. and when the door was opened, a mighty voice did say "Man is man's destroyer. He paves destructions way."
I looked and saw upon a cloud a man in brilliant white. A crown of hope was on His head, His eyes shone wisdom bright. It was then the mighty voice did speak again to me. and told me that this man was love, and love will set men free.
I looked and saw upon a cross, a lamb was being slain. His eyes were filled with grieving tears, His body wracked with pain. Once again I heard the voice, It is finished was His cry. The doors of Heaven opened wide the moment that He died.
I looked and saw beside a tomb, a stone was rolled away. An angel sat upon the stone, and this is what He said. I know you seek the love you need, He is no longer here. Go to the place He bid you come, and you will find Him there.
I looked and saw a mercy seat inside a Holy place the Lamb of God was seated there, a smile was on His face. A little child was with Him, reposing on his breast. Come to me, he said to me, and I will give you rest
[ I looked and saw upon a cross a lamb When John saw Jesus he said, " Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world."
"Go to the place He bid you come..."
When Jesus rose from the dead, He told His disciples to go to Galillee, where they would see Him. For us, the place he bids us come is to come to Him in faith and receive the free gift of eternal life.
"...in a Holy Place..."
The Holy Place referred to here is not any earthly temple, but Heaven itself, where Jesus sits at God's right side.
Quote: If got is all knowing, all powerful, and perfectly good---then how does evil exist in the world?
How could heaven exist if people I loved were atheists and could not populate it?
Could god create something so heavy that he couldn't pick it up?
1. Because God gives us a free will and we choose evil. God did not create evil, evil is a result of the rejection of God who is the only fountain of good. The only reason there is any good in the world is because God put it there. The only reason there is evil is because man put it there.
2. Why would atheists even want to go to heaven? Everyone by nature knows there is a God, but atheists suppress that knowledge, ( knowingly or unknowingly), because they do not wish to have God exist. BTW, atheists can go to heaven if they come to believe that God exists and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him.
3. The last question is nonsense. In other words, is God so powerful that He can fail. There are many things God can not or will not do, ( like lie or sin). That doesnt make Him limited in power.
Here's another thing on the question of atheists. Concerning those I love that are atheists, I deeply want them to go to Heaven, so I pray that God will open their hearts to receive Him so that they can go to Heaven too. God loves everyone and He wants everyone to go to Heaven. That's why He sent His only Son to make it possible. It's up to us. Again we have a free will to choose. If God forced everyone to go to Heaven, that would be kidnapping or prison to those who do not want or love Him.
Someone once said that everyone has a God size hole in their life that only God can fill.
1. If god is the creator of everything, and he is all-knowing---then he created evil---or allows it to exist, therefore, he is not an all-good perfect god.
2. A personal heaven cannot exist if people we love cannot populate that heaven. How could you call it heaven if your loved one's weren't there--for eternity.
3. If god can't create something that heavy--then he is not all powerful.
Quote: Here's another thing on the question of atheists. Concerning those I love that are atheists, I deeply want them to go to Heaven, so I pray that God will open their hearts to receive Him so that they can go to Heaven too. God loves everyone and He wants everyone to go to Heaven. That's why He sent His only Son to make it possible. It's up to us. Again we have a free will to choose. If God forced everyone to go to Heaven, that would be kidnapping or prison to those who do not want or love Him.
Someone once said that everyone has a God size hole in their life that only God can fill.
Them not getting into Heaven because they haven't accepted God into their hearts only matters from the Christian viewpoint.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
1, God did not create evil. Evil is not a thing, it's nothing more than the absence of good. The definition of evil is the privation of good, just as darkness is the absence of light. Is darkness a quantifiable thing? It does not say that God created darkness, only that He created light. Darkness was just the condition of the Cosmos until light entered. In the same way, evil is the condition of a heart or a world that refuses to let God in.
2. Why wouldn't it be heaven if those who chose not to attend didn't go? You are putting your own definition on what Heaven should be, just like people come up with different ideas on God, based on who they think He should be. Faith is based on truth, not opinions.
3. God could make a rock of infinite weight, but would still be able to lift it. You are saying that because God cannot fail, He is not Omnipotent. That is nonsensical and not a logical argument. Anyways, if God made a rock, and then promised that He would never lift it, then yes it would be a rock that He could not lift, but it would not be due to a lack of power, but due to a fidelity to His Word, so there you go.
Kramer - I sliced meat so thin you couldnt even see it! Jerry - how did you know it was there? Kramer - I guess I just assumed!
I would try to feel it, smell it, or taste it. There is more than one way to know something is there. I know God exists the same way I know gravity and wind exists, ( because I see the effects). Another example is Love. I know God exists the same way I know that love exists. That's the best way I can describe it.
Quote: Here's another thing on the question of atheists. Concerning those I love that are atheists, I deeply want them to go to Heaven, so I pray that God will open their hearts to receive Him so that they can go to Heaven too. God loves everyone and He wants everyone to go to Heaven. That's why He sent His only Son to make it possible. It's up to us. Again we have a free will to choose. If God forced everyone to go to Heaven, that would be kidnapping or prison to those who do not want or love Him.
God's viewpoint is the only one that matters in the end. I don't worry about the popular opinions.
Someone once said that everyone has a God size hole in their life that only God can fill.
Them not getting into Heaven because they haven't accepted God into their hearts only matters from the Christian viewpoint.
On these types of questions, God's viewpoint is the only one that matters in the end.
I agree. And I preemptively agree that it is arrogant of man to tell other men precisely what God's viewpoint is - especially when all they themselves have to go on is their own faith in their beliefs.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Quote: I agree. And I preemptively agree that it is arrogant of man to tell other men precisely what God's viewpoint is - especially when all they themselves have to go on is their own faith in their beliefs.
The only man in history who is no longer in His tomb told those who believe in Him to tell others the message that He shared. Secondly, I have no faith in my own beliefs, I have faith in Christ.
Quote: I agree. And I preemptively agree that it is arrogant of man to tell other men precisely what God's viewpoint is - especially when all they themselves have to go on is their own faith in their beliefs.
The only man in history who is no longer in His tomb told those who believe in Him to tell others the message that He shared. Secondly, I have no faith in my own beliefs, I have faith in Christ.
Yup, and the only proof of that happening is stories passed down by word of mouth - and, oh yeah, history and religions are full of demi-Gods rising from the dead.
It is a chosen belief... and it is no more correct than anyone else's chosen belief. People are so quick to defend the details of how they find their God that they lose sight of the fact that the only important thing is that they find Him.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
I knew that would come up. Actually the accounts of the resurrection were not merely passed down word of mouth, but were documented eyewitness accounts. Do you realize that the if Jesus had not risen, the people in the first century could have just went to the tomb and said, look, here's the body. Do you believe the accounts of those who were cruelly tortured and killed because they would not renounce their testimony. If Jesus did not rise, the ones who said they saw him died for something they knew was a lie. Peter was crucified upside down, Paul was beheaded, etc. That seems contrary to human nature.
Why is it that we believe history books that tell us about historical events, but we don't believe the Bible. If you don't think the Bible is a reliable book, but you have an open mind and would like to research it further, I recommend the book "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. He offers compelling evidence that the accounts of Jesus life death and resurrection are reliable.
Check out ancient historians like Josephus, and Tacitus, ( who were not Christians). They mention Jesus, His miracles, and the report of His resurrection.
None of which changes anything. You believe because you choose to believe. You found God as you understand Him, and then you take issue with people who find him another way. You accept those items as factual, but you reject older evidences of similar things.
Why do you believe the Bible any more than you believe Roman Mythology, much of which was once taken to be first-hand accounts? Why is the demigod Jesus more believable than Hercules or Perseus? There is plenty of written documentation stating that they are the sons of Gods. Why is it that you feel you can't journey to the edge of Lake Avernus in Italy to enter the Underworld? It was clearly written to be just that thousands of years ago.
Quote: Why is it that we believe history books that tell us about historical events, but we don't believe the Bible.
Why is it that you believe the Bible but not earlier texts?
Neither view is any more credible than another, except within the framework of an individual's perception.... it is all based upon BELIEF.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
if you read the history books, christianity borrows so much from the pagan religions that its really hard to distinguish who came up with what first. the bible is true, but it doesnt mean anything. it's just a repeat of other stuff and beliefs that already were in place.
I don't recall taking issue with anyone. I merely answered others based on the way they responded to me. I do not believe that Jesus is a demigod though.
Did you know the Bible contains scientific facts that were well ahead of science, like the fact that the Bible describes the earth as round, describes the earth as hanging ( in space) on nothing, that the stars are innumerable and move in their circuits, etc. Or that a vast majority of the characters in the Bible are shown to be actual historical figures through archaeology? Not only that, but you can read about Pilate, Nebuchadnezzer, Herod, etc in secular ancient history books. The Bible spoke of the ancient civilization of the Hittites before archaeologists ever discovered that they existed.
The reason that pagan religions sometimes look similar to Christianity is because man by nature knows that Diety exists. Along with that they even had glimpses of what Christianity would eventually teach. This is because God revealed it to man and it was passed it down from Adam to his descendants, and later through Noah to His descendants, etc. Nevertheless, you cannot say Christianity is right and pagan religions are right, and other religions are right, because they contradict on many points.
Is there one God or many?
Is Jesus the only way to God? If you say no, then the Bible is not true, if you say yes, then the other religions are not true. They can't both be true.
Is God ( or gods) personal or impersonal? How can man overcome death? What is the meaning of life? What does God want us to do, or does He even care? Where is the future taking us?
Different religions answer these questions radically differently.
Quote: Did you know the Bible contains scientific facts
That's great. And any person today can write a book describing Kings and cities of the current world, and inject them with fiction, parables and embellished stories that are 100+ years old (I'm pretty certain that absolutely NONE of the Bible was written at that time... the stories were passed down over time and later collected as written works, with some Books discarded completely).
Something like The DaVinci Code.... a nice mix of fact and fiction and real places. A darn good story that talks about real organizations, real symbolism, etc...all with plenty of basis in fact and dealing with mysteries hundreds of years old. Can I thus conclude that Mary Magdalene was then indeed the lover of Jesus and that the real Holy Grail is the continuing bloodline and descendants of Jesus?
Again, it all boils down to belief.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
Yes, I choose to believe the Bible, and you choose not to, or to believe only parts. It's Ok to disagree with one another, as long as we're honest with ourselves. I believe if we honestly seek the truth, it will be revealed to us. May we all lay our presuppositions aside, and come to God and let Him show us who He really is. It is my belief that God is a God who delights to reveal Himself. I believe He wants us to know Him. I don't know if you believe this, but it is the core of my belief.
It is good to discuss these things, and to disagree is not a sign of disrespect. If you truly believe in a personal loving God who has provided a way for us to know Him, you want others to know about it as well.
Quote: Did you know the Bible contains scientific facts
That's great. And any person today can write a book describing Kings and cities of the current world, and inject them with fiction, parables and embellished stories that are 100+ years old (I'm pretty certain that absolutely NONE of the Bible was written at that time... the stories were passed down over time and later collected as written works, with some Books discarded completely).
Something like The DaVinci Code.... a nice mix of fact and fiction and real places. A darn good story that talks about real organizations, real symbolism, etc...all with plenty of basis in fact and dealing with mysteries hundreds of years old. Can I thus conclude that Mary Magdalene was then indeed the lover of Jesus and that the real Holy Grail is the continuing bloodline and descendants of Jesus?
Again, it all boils down to belief.
Purple, thank you for the feedback you provided, and I realize that you have a faith system that may be different than mine, and I am not trying in this post to debate your faith versus mine, but I just wanted to respond to a couple of things in the quote above.
You imply that the Bible is a fictional book with characters and cities in it that were current figures, like the Divinci Code. My question to you if that were so, why did the writers die horrible, torturous deaths for a collection of fiction? Do you think the guy who wrote "The Divinci Code", ( I forgot the name), would suffer the pains of death if he were given the option of renounce your book or die? Peter was crucified upside down. Some of the apostles were stoned to death, some were beheaded, etc.
Also, you say that you are pretty certain that none of the Bible was written at that time. Note the following, ( taken from always be ready.com )
A paleographer by the name of Jose O’Callaghan made headlines around the world on March 18, 1972 when he identified a fragment of a hand written copy of the gospel of Mark in a collection of Dead Sea Scrolls.
Based on...
--the containers that the manuscripts were found in
--the location of the caves
--and other archaeological and historical evidence
..many scholars have concluded that that this copy of Mark must have been completed before A.D. 50!!
That’s within seventeen to twenty years after Jesus was crucified.[8] ( always be ready.com)
Also, you can read the writings of the early church fathers, ( some as early as the second century, and they quote the New Testament repeatedly. In fact you can find about 90 percent of the New Testament quoted in the writings of the early church fathers. If the New Testament were lost, we could reconstruct almost all of it from their writings alone. This seems to indicate that the New Testament was finished a very short time after Jesus death.
Quote: You imply that the Bible is a fictional book with characters and cities in it that were current figures
Actually, I state that it is every bit as likely to be just a set of stories with factual places and stuff thrown in as it is to be anything else. I view it as absolutely no more - nor less - valid than the Quran, the books Krishna, the Torah or Buddha's Dhammapada.... I do put it above flyingspaghettimonster.com, however I view each and every one to simply be a different path to the same enlightenments of humanity: selflessness, caring and love.... the very traits that are God (as I understand him).
I feel that the Bible is a great book of teachings (with a lot of fluff.. I mean, really... does it matter one bit who begot whom?), that shows us how to live a good and rewarding life of kindness; the things in life that truly matter.... and that is all that I think of it.
Quote: My question to you if that were so, why did the writers die horrible, torturous deaths for a collection of fiction?
So, had they died happy old-age deaths it would "help" validate my viewpoint for you, hehe?? Is the Spanish Inquisition also now evidence of The Truth? They died for what they believed in; no different than millions of other people throughout history.... and just because they believed it so strongly that they died horribly for it does not make it right.... otherwise, there'd be a whole lot of suicide bombers rewriting what is right and what is wrong. Belief is powerful.
Quote: must have been completed before A.D. 50!!
That one is news to me, but it has no effect on my views.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
So nobody has ever been killed over a work of fiction? Publishers and translators of The Satanic Verses were murdered and Salman Rushdie lived under police protection for nearly a decade because of a bounty placed on his head by the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iranian government. And that's only one of the more famous examples. Weak argument.
Quote: The reason that pagan religions sometimes look similar to Christianity is because man by nature knows that Diety exists.
I've always thought that Christianity looked similar to Pagan religions because of the many "holy events" that Christians borrowed from previous religions.
Quote: You imply that the Bible is a fictional book with characters and cities in it that were current figures
Actually, I state that it is every bit as likely to be just a set of stories with factual places and stuff thrown in as it is to be anything else. I view it as absolutely no more - nor less - valid than the Quran, the books Krishna, the Torah or Buddha's Dhammapada.... I do put it above flyingspaghettimonster.com, however I view each and every one to simply be a different path to the same enlightenments of humanity: selflessness, caring and love.... the very traits that are God (as I understand him).
I feel that the Bible is a great book of teachings (with a lot of fluff.. I mean, really... does it matter one bit who begot whom?), that shows us how to live a good and rewarding life of kindness; the things in life that truly matter.... and that is all that I think of it.
Quote: My question to you if that were so, why did the writers die horrible, torturous deaths for a collection of fiction?
So, had they died happy old-age deaths it would "help" validate my viewpoint for you, hehe?? Is the Spanish Inquisition also now evidence of The Truth? They died for what they believed in; no different than millions of other people throughout history.... and just because they believed it so strongly that they died horribly for it does not make it right.... otherwise, there'd be a whole lot of suicide bombers rewriting what is right and what is wrong. Belief is powerful.
Quote: must have been completed before A.D. 50!!
That one is news to me, but it has no effect on my views.
There is a difference between dying for what you believe, ( because your beliefs may be unfounded), and dying for something you claim you saw with your own eyes. Those who die for faith, are dying for something that they believe but have no empirical knowledge of, but these men died for a testimony in which they saw Jesus alive with their own eyes.
Dying for a false belief would be dying for a error in faith. Dying for your own eyewitness testimony would be dying for a lie, if your testimony was not true. What would they have gained from this.
Also, the claim is that the book of Mark was probably written before AD 50, not the entire NT.
Quote: So nobody has ever been killed over a work of fiction? Publishers and translators of The Satanic Verses were murdered and Salman Rushdie lived under police protection for nearly a decade because of a bounty placed on his head by the Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iranian government. And that's only one of the more famous examples. Weak argument.
Please see my last response to purple for an answer to this.
Quote: The reason that pagan religions sometimes look similar to Christianity is because man by nature knows that Diety exists.
I've always thought that Christianity looked similar to Pagan religions because of the many "holy events" that Christians borrowed from previous religions.
That would be true if you believe that Christianity began after the other religions. Yet, the Bible teaches that Christianity began with the very first family.
Christ is the Greek word for the Hebrew "Messiah". Messiah means " annointed one". God told the serpent that the seed of the woman would crush his head after the serpent bruised the seeds heel. The New Testament identifies the serpent as satan, or a tool used by satan, and the seed as Christ. Even Jewish rabbis for the most part believe this is a Messianic prophecy. Satan bruised Jesus' heel at the cross, but Jesus crushed satans head when He rose from the dead.
Also, the Bible describes a prophet 6 or seven generations from Adam named Enoch, who spoke about Jesus.
You may think that these are just myths, but hypothetically if these accounts are true then Christianity is the oldest religion. Some people mistakenly believe that Christianity began when Christ walked the earth, but if you define Christianity as the faith in a Saviour Christ, then Christianity began in the Old Testament period, and even earlier. Even though Christ had not yet come, the ancient prophets, fathers, and later Israelites expected a Messiah to come.
Of course, to believe the above requires faith that the Old Testament of the Bible is true, so I cannot prove this, but I am just stating that it is not necessarily true that Christianity borrowed from paganism. The reverse could be the case.
The Old Testament predicted the birth, life, miracles, death, resurrection of Christ, as well as the rise of the spread of Christianity to all the world. Don't tell me the Old Testament was written after the life of Christ, because that is disproved by history, archaeology, etc. The Septuigint, ( the Greek version of the Old Testament), was already in existence while Jesus was still alive. How do you explain the CLEAR prophecies of the Old Testament being fullfilled in Christ. This is an evidence of Christianity that I had not mentioned until now.
There is also an article that I may post later that shows that the similarities between Christianity and paganism are grossly exagerated. I will post this later.
Quote: The holidays are the same because it made it easier for the church to convert the followers of Pagan religions.
Given the evidence out there today, all signs point that Jesus was born in spring/summer...
That is true, but the holidays were instituted by the Catholic church long after the Gospels were written. They do not have anything to do with the reliability of the Gospels.
The Bible does not say what season Jesus was born, so even if He was born in the summer it would not change anything. I don't know of anyone who says that Jesus was born in December, it is just a date that was chosen for various reasons, none of which have anything to do with the reliability of the written eyewitness accounts of Jesus disciples.
i just did a quick synopsis of what i've learned and then i'm out of this thread before it gets too crazy 