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Quote:
By: John Kosich
CLEVELAND - Rock Ohio Caesars halted construction indefinitely Wednesday on both its Cleveland and Cincinnati casinos in a battle over additional taxes or fees.
“The recent legislative action and discussion proposing significant higher taxes and fees specific to the operation of casinos in Ohio… have created an environment of uncertainty concerning the projected economic vitality of our planned developments in both Cincinnati and Cleveland,” read a statement from Rock Ohio Caesars.
At issue is a .26 percent commercial activity tax. In states with gaming, casinos pay this tax on their gross profits, that is the money left after all bets are paid. The Ohio House of Representatives last week though passed their version of the budget that amends the tax in Ohio to apply to all casino bets wagered.
So, say someone comes to the casino with a $10 roll of quarters and between winning and losing, winds up putting $100 worth of quarters in the machine but walks away with their original $10.
Even though neither the casino nor the customer made money, the casino would have to pay the tax on the $100 bet.
“You’re taxing money over and over again,” said Roger Gros, publisher of Global Gaming Business magazine. “It really is not going to be very fair to the casinos.”
Not fair to Ohio taxpayers is what Governor John Kasich says was Issue 3, the statewide referendum that approved the four casinos in 2009.
While Issue 3 set a tax rate of 33 percent of gross casino revenues that money is spread throughout the state but doesn’t go to the state. In addition the one time fee of $50 million per casino to the state is constitutionally earmarked for jobs training.
Since taking office, Kasich has been looking at ways the state might be able to get more out of the casinos in taxes or fees.
“Frankly the taxpayers of this state have a little leverage right now,” Kasich told newsnet5.com in April. He hired two casino consultants to advise him on how best to proceed.
The first sign of trouble came two weeks ago when Rock Ohio Caesars announced they had missed a steel order for their Cincinnati casino because concerns that they may need to rethink the size of the structure should the state seek more money.
That move delayed until 2013 the opening of that property. At the time Rock said the Higbee project was not affected, today came word it would be.
“Construction work on both sites has been suspended and will remain so until these issues have been resolved and a reliable state economic environment is in place,” read the Rock Ohio statement.
“Only then can we proceed with construction and deliver on our commitment to employ thousands of Ohioans in new private sector construction and casino related jobs.
“Rock Ohio Caesars is hopeful that a resolution can be reached quickly so that the State of Ohio can reap the economic benefits sought by voters when they approved Issue 3 in November, 2009,” said Rock Ohio.
Governor John Kasich’s spokesperson Rob Nichols said “the state has hired gaming consultants to ensure that Ohio taxpayers are being treated fairly and we look forward to hearing their recommendations.
“The governor doesn’t oppose gambling and wants the casinos to be successful and we are confident that a resolution can be reached that will be in the best interest of Ohioans,” Nichols said.
The budget sits in the state senate where it’s possible the CAT tax amendment could be removed, if not the matter will likely end up decided in court that’s because the casinos say the wording in the constitution protects them from additional taxes and fees.
After the budget passed the house last Thursday Rock Ohio Caesars issued a statement, “we firmly believe that it is unlike any other tax in Ohio, and we will oppose it through all means necessary.”
I really hope this gets worked out but once again the state is messing things up. If the state wanted to have all this tax money from casinos and they are mad that the license fee is so small then maybe they should have gotten off their butts and legalized gambling 20years ago instead of it going through state wide voter initiatives.
Taxing before bets are paid IMO is freaking stupid.
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I can see the states side here.. I mean what is the point of allowing people to do things that are bad like smoke, drink, drive, gamble, or eat good food if the state can't tax the crap out of it?
yebat' Putin
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I can see the states side here.. I mean what is the point of allowing people to do things that are bad like smoke, drink, drive, gamble, or eat good food if the state can't tax the crap out of it?
 Apparently, Kasich agrees with that thinking. And to think, he's a PRO business republican. Now that right there is funny.
I guess campaign rhetoric be damned. He's so pro business before he's elected, but afterward, he's the same as everyone else.
If this doesn't prove my point about politicians.. nothing will.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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The deal has been struck.. it's done and in writing. Kasich needs to sit down and shut his mouth. Let business do what business does,, employ people, pay taxes, build the economy. Come on Kasich,, get out of the way already will ya.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Since taking office, Kasich has been looking at ways the state might be able to get more out of the casinos in taxes or fees.
Seems to me the best way to get more out of them would be to get them open... 
yebat' Putin
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The State of Ohio is run by a bunch of freaking morons.
What idiot actually thought this tax was a GOOD idea???
Are they just trying to get the casinos to pull out of Ohio, or what??
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Seems to me the best way to get more out of them would be to get them open...
I'll take having them built at this point. When did the vote pass... 2-3 years ago?
This state really is ridiculous.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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The State of Ohio is run by a bunch of freaking morons.
What idiot actually thought this tax was a GOOD idea???
Are they just trying to get the casinos to pull out of Ohio, or what??
IMO yes, they are trying to get them to pull out. The conservatives never wanted casinos and this just might be a way to get them to do so. It is one of the conservative beliefs that I hate - most are anti- gambling. If you don't like to gamble don't go to a freaking casino!
#gmstrong
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Actually, none of the politicians seem to want casinos.
Strickland was very much anti-casino .... as was Taft, and Voinivich. (and Celeste, IIRC)
I say bring on the casinos, and legalize (and tax the crap out of) prostitution as well.
The state of Ohio is losing people and power with every passing census. We need drastic steps to reverse the trend. Taxing money that comes in from out of state is a great way of prodiving for services without hurting citizens, and without chasing away industry with excessive taxation.
In this case, the bottom line is that the Amendment to the Ohio Constitution passed, and the state should bow to the will of the people. No one on either side seems willing to do so though.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Actually, none of the politicians seem to want casinos.
WAIT.... Politicians are against it? Then it MUST be the right thing to do,,
Damn the politicians, open the casinos......
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Come to Cleveland and visit our new casino overlooking beautiful lake Erie, I mean beautiful cuyahoga river 
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Come to Cleveland and visit our new casino overlooking beautiful lake Erie, I mean beautiful cuyahoga river
LOL if you put a casino in the middle of a corn field, people will come to it.. THey don't care about the view... Casinos don't have windows 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Trivissano had a discussion on this topic yesterday. He wanted to know why Pittsburgh had a temp casino up 6mo after it was made legal there. We are at 1-1/2 years. Someone called and said there was gaming commission regulations that needed to be written and some language that needed to be changed that was on the ballot last November. They also pointed out that only the two Casino's owned by Dan Gilberts group has stopped building, the other two are still moving forward despite the hang up in Columbus. Someone said that some of Gov. Kasich's close friends are now working in Columbus as Lobbyist for Indiana Casinos. Not saying it is true just repeating what a caller said on the air. Also Dan Gilberts group feels that what Kasich is proposing goes against the Admendment in that was passed and they will take it to court. This could drag on a long time.  Go to Detroit, go to Wheeling and you will see on a bad day 50% of the cars are from Ohio. But lets keep staling here so other states get our money. 
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Personally, I'm not a big fan of gambling. Don't get into it myself.
But here's the deal. Ohioans are going to gamble. They will take thier money to out of state casinos and spend it there helping to create jobs.
Again, I wish we could just live without gaming in Ohio. But it's just flat out stupid not to have it at this point.
The people need the jobs, the state/city/county governments need the revenue.
Just get off the dime and make it happen already.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I say bring on the casinos, and legalize (and tax the crap out of) prostitution as well.
Most things are illegal because it's difficult for the government to collect the piece of the pie they feel they deserve. Prostitution is one of them. It's tough to tax.
I voted against these casinos.
I would gladly vote for legalized gambling, however.
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Quote:
Quote:
I say bring on the casinos, and legalize (and tax the crap out of) prostitution as well.
Most things are illegal because it's difficult for the government to collect the piece of the pie they feel they deserve. Prostitution is one of them. It's tough to tax.
I voted against these casinos.
I would gladly vote for legalized gambling, however.
I am not sure that makes sense.....did you mean prostitution??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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There isn't even a lottery in Alabama because it is considered "gambling" so I've seen worse, lol.
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Quote:
Quote:
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I say bring on the casinos, and legalize (and tax the crap out of) prostitution as well.
Most things are illegal because it's difficult for the government to collect the piece of the pie they feel they deserve. Prostitution is one of them. It's tough to tax.
I voted against these casinos.
I would gladly vote for legalized gambling, however.
I am not sure that makes sense.....did you mean prostitution??
In that it's extremely difficult to tax?
Yes.
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Why is prostitution hard to tax? Financially how is it different than any other service like massage or manicure or tailoring or cutting hair?
yebat' Putin
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Why is prostitution hard to tax? Financially how is it different than any other service like massage or manicure or tailoring or cutting hair?
Any working girl could simply operate independently -- no brick and mortar, no paperwork, no LLC, etc.
If prostitution were legal, the only real benefit to joining some form or business or alliance with checkable books and balances would be safety from violence and disease.
Now, certainly that would occur. But a woman could also spot a guy in a bar, chat for twenty minutes and hit his hotel room. No dues, fees or cuts, and Uncle Sam never sees a dime.
It's similar with drugs, specifically marijuana -- you can only cast so much of a tax net. The only way for the gov't to ensure what they feel entitled to would be to put limitations on the act that becomes legal - i.e. you can get a hooker, but only through licensed hookers. Or you can buy grass, but only from select retailers.
Not only is that tough logic to pitch, but there's no way you effectively eliminate an underground market.
Would they see tax revenue? Sure, some. But they wouldn't have their claws in the market.
In regards to drugs, they'd end up losing money. Prostitution, they might see a little more coin. But IMO the ban of prostitution has more to do with making sure Joe Taxpayer gets married and has babies and buys a house.
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You have to look at it the other way.....most guys would opt for the legal prostitution.
Safer. Not illegal....you won't find your name and mug shot plastered in the paper.
No doubt you would still have freelancers....just like anything else I suppose.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Safer. Not illegal....you won't find your name and mug shot plastered in the paper.
But there's a paradox - especially in regards to prostitution - as far as constituting legality and illegality.
Your product is a woman's body. And we all know regulating what a woman can do with her body gets really tricky (no pun intended).
How are you going to say a girl working out of an LLC can do it, but a girl in a bar who is a bit short on rent can't?
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You have to look at it the other way.....most guys would opt for the legal prostitution.
The ones who could afford it.
If prostitution were legal, a lots of hounds would jump. Rich, middle-class, poor.
NOt to mention the women that would want to work independently, the women that couldn't find a gig, the woman who realizes a capitalizing situation, etc.
I think the underground would far exceed the brick and mortar.
The gov't would get a slice of the pie ... but not nearly the slice they'd want.
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A smaller slice of the pie is better than no slice, although a bureacracy would need to be created, one would suppose, and then sooner or later the hookers would unionize.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I disagree.
I think most women would rather leave the pimp and the "John" would rather leave the street corner.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
A smaller slice of the pie is better than no slice
They already have a slice. They do nicely with seizures- cars, money, drugs, etc.
Make it legal, and that revenue is gone.
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I disagree.
I think most women would rather leave the pimp and the "John" would rather leave the street corner.
All of that could easily be done without going somewhere where the gov't can get theirs
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Quote:
Quote:
A smaller slice of the pie is better than no slice
They already have a slice. They do nicely with seizures- cars, money, drugs, etc.
Make it legal, and that revenue is gone.
And so would be the need to spend money on enforcement as well as putting prostitution-related crime before the courts (which is one big reason I'm for marijuana decriminalization).
gmstrong -----------------
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Quote:
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I disagree.
I think most women would rather leave the pimp and the "John" would rather leave the street corner.
All of that could easily be done without going somewhere where the gov't can get theirs
I know all about that.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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It seems like that should be the case ....... much like independent and illegal tobacco and liquor should be cheaper ..... but they aren't. In the end, the legal stuff wipes out the illegal stuff .....
Look at Las Vegas ..... how much illegal gambling and prostitution takes place out there? I bet it's a lot less than where such activities are illegal.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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much like independent and illegal tobacco and liquor should be cheaper ..... but they aren't. In the end, the legal stuff wipes out the illegal stuff .....
Tobacco and alcohol are different ball games completely.
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Look at Las Vegas ..... how much illegal gambling and prostitution takes place out there? I bet it's a lot less than where such activities are illegal.
Actually, the opposite.
The city itself averages 300-400 prostitution arrests a month.
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Legend
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Quote:
Any working girl could simply operate independently -- no brick and mortar, no paperwork, no LLC, etc.
If prostitution were legal, the only real benefit to joining some form or business or alliance with checkable books and balances would be safety from violence and disease.
Now, certainly that would occur. But a woman could also spot a guy in a bar, chat for twenty minutes and hit his hotel room. No dues, fees or cuts, and Uncle Sam never sees a dime.
Lots of people in lots of professions do some work off the books.. the problem is that if that was the norm then the government would come after them. Kill people? The government doesn't like that much... Do some drugs? The government frowns on that too... Get a hooker? The government doesn't really care but they do a sting once in a while to make it look like they are...... Now, don't pay your taxes? Oh my goodness they will come after you like a pack of rabid raccoons....
You get caught as a pimp (provided you aren't violent or selling drugs) and you get what? A night? Get caught again and you get 30 days..... now run a legal house and get caught with your girls not paying their taxes... you'll get 5 years.
Don't come between the government and "their" money...
yebat' Putin
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Discussions with Ohio casino developers to start within days on paying more fees, taxes
CLEVELAND, Ohio--A consultant hired by Ohio will start talking within days with casino developers about increasing tax money and fees to the state, a spokesman for Gov. John Kasich said Tuesday.
The consultant, Moelis & Co., is expected to make recommendations late next week to the administration on how to proceed based on those conversations, said Kasich spokesman Rob Nichols.
Nichols said money netted from any agreement with casino developers would go toward public education and worker training. Moelis' pitch is expected to be a tough sell to the developers. The two groups allowed to build casinos in Ohio say they think the tax and fee structure approved by voters in 2009 is fair.
Moelis has a financial incentive to land more money from the casino developers and later with horse tracks that may get slot machines. The company can earn an additional $13 million beyond its base rate of $400 an hour, based on its success. At one point in the contract negotiations, state officials asked Moelis to drop the incentive fee for a strict hourly rate, but they were rebuffed, documents show.
Moelis told the state that a proposal to allow slot machines at the state's seven horse racing tracks could cost Ohio's casinos 25 percent, or hundreds of millions of dollars, in lost revenue. That could be used as a tool to garner concessions from casino developers, Moelis officials said.
In all, Moelis and a second gambling consultant hired by the state, Spectrum Gaming Group, could get up to $19 million in the next year -- an amount roughly equal to what Cleveland would see in casino tax revenue if all four of the state's casinos were operating
"It strikes me as unusual to have a private consultant who essentially is being given a bounty, that they get a piece of whatever revenue the state takes," said Jonathan Entin, a professor and constitutional law expert at Case Western Reserve University. "I don't know whether that runs afoul of any legal rules."
But there's no guarantee that Moelis will see any of the incentive pay, which equals 3.25 percent of any additional gaming revenue it brings in.
Previous Plain Dealer coverage
Game of trance: How casinos play you (May 15, 2011)
Casino developers want to knock down building to make way for valet parking center (May 13)
Poll: Should the state tax casinos on every bet placed? (May 12)
Casino projects in Cleveland, Cincinnati halted due to tax dispute, economic uncertainty (May 11)
More coverage of casino gambling
"Under this arrangement, to earn the entire amount, they would have to recover an extra $450 million dollars," said Molly O'Reilly, a spokeswoman for the Department of Administrative Services. "This would be a good return of investment for the state."
Moelis executives declined to be interviewed for this story.
Kasich doesn't have a dollar amount in mind that he wants from the developers in additional money, Nichols said. The governor contends taxpayers aren't getting enough revenue from the developers of Las Vegas-style casinos in Toledo, Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati.
Developers of the casinos in Cleveland and Cincinnati halted construction last week because of the tax controversy.
14CGCASINO.jpgView full sizeKen Marshall, The Plain Dealer
Spectrum is helping the state develop rules and regulations related to the casinos and a proposal to add slot machines at horse tracks.
Moelis and Spectrum were hired by Administrative Services on April 29. In its pitch to the state, Moelis said Ohio's casino developers -- Rock Ohio Caesars and Penn National Gaming -- had signaled they were open to negotiations through interactions with the media, and that it had a strong relationship, thorough knowledge and deep experience with the developers that should help in arriving at a mutually beneficial agreement.
"We have significant insight into the current state of thinking of the licensees and strong access to the key decision makers," Moelis officials told the state.
But representatives of the casino developers repeated Tuesday they think the licensing fee and taxes in place are enough.
Jennifer Kulczycki, a spokeswoman for Rock Ohio Caesars, which is building casinos in Cleveland and Cincinnati, said all four casinos will ultimately generate $650 million for Ohio's public schools, 88 counties and select cities.
More importantly, said Bob Tenenbaum with Penn National Gaming, voters thought the terms were fair. Penn National is building casinos in the other two cities.
"The real question is, since the voters approved it, why would you be talking about changing it?" said Tenenbaum.
The casino deal approved by voters set a one-time licensing fee of $50 million per casino along with an ongoing tax of 33 percent of revenue after winnings are paid.
Increases in the licensing fee and casino revenue tax cannot be forced on developers without approval of Ohio voters, said Steven Steinglass, a professor and dean emeritus at Cleveland State University's Marshall College of Law. But Steinglass, author of a book on the Ohio Constitution, said voters probably wouldn't have to approve a change if the developers agreed to it.
"I don't see any problem in them freely and voluntarily paying more in fees and taxes," Steinglass said.
Nichols said new money for education would help offset reductions school districts will get from state spending. He said worker training money could go to people who want to change jobs. web page
I think it's going to be a while before the casino in Cleveland is open. The group already said they think the state can't get any more money because the amendment set in stone their rate (which except for the upfront licensee fee the rest of the tax is higher than the nation average.) I guess the out of state casino's will continue to get my money since Ohio doesn't want it.
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Come to Cleveland and visit our new casino overlooking beautiful lake Erie, I mean beautiful cuyahoga river
LOL if you put a casino in the middle of a corn field, people will come to it.. THey don't care about the view... Casinos don't have windows
When you first said that, I thought you were right, it makes sense. The more I think about it, I'd say a casino on the lake would bring in millions more in revenue every year. Do you think Atlantic city would see a significant reduction in attendance if it were in the middle of the city opposed to bein next to the ocean? I do.
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,960 Likes: 3 |
A casino is a casino, like you said, they have no windows. The average person is only going to come to the Cleveland casino because it closer to them than other casinos. F you give them a reason to come to our casino, lakeside restaurants, bars, shopping they will go out of their way to come to Cleveland. Me thinks
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
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Come to Cleveland and visit our new casino overlooking beautiful lake Erie, I mean beautiful cuyahoga river
LOL if you put a casino in the middle of a corn field, people will come to it.. THey don't care about the view... Casinos don't have windows
When you first said that, I thought you were right, it makes sense. The more I think about it, I'd say a casino on the lake would bring in millions more in revenue every year. Do you think Atlantic city would see a significant reduction in attendance if it were in the middle of the city opposed to bein next to the ocean? I do.
For some, the only reason to go to a casino or a gaming area is to gamble.. that's it. So for those people, yea you could put the casino anywhere... but if you want a real "tourist" spot then the casino is only going to be part of the appeal.. I don't go just to sit in a room and gamble, then eat, then sleep, then gamble some more... I go to gamble a little, maybe play some golf, hang out on the beach (in the case of AC), go to Grand Canyon (in the case of Vegas)... for me the gambling is only a part of the attraction so I would drive right past a poorly located casino to get to one in an area with more to do.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,412 Likes: 463
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,412 Likes: 463 |
You've never been to Mountaineer in West Virginia.
There are trailer parks and a strip joint all around Mountineer ... and that's about it. Want food? It's at the casino. Want entertainment where they keep their clothes on? It's at the casino.
So much could be done with a casino in downtown Cleveland that it's not even funny. Cleveland could be made into a destination.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,986 Likes: 16
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,986 Likes: 16 |
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You've never been to Mountaineer in West Virginia.
There are trailer parks and a strip joint all around Mountineer ... and that's about it. Want food? It's at the casino. Want entertainment where they keep their clothes on? It's at the casino.
So much could be done with a casino in downtown Cleveland that it's not even funny. Cleveland could be made into a destination.
Yeah, Mountaineer is surrounded by absolutely nothing. The towns that are close are so small that they don't offer anything more than a few mom and pop type places as well.
Casinos will always draw people. Location doesn't matter all that much, but one in a tourist area may fraw more seasonal business.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
You've never been to Mountaineer in West Virginia.
There are trailer parks and a strip joint all around Mountineer ... and that's about it. Want food? It's at the casino. Want entertainment where they keep their clothes on? It's at the casino.
So much could be done with a casino in downtown Cleveland that it's not even funny. Cleveland could be made into a destination.
Which is why I've never been there and have no plans to go.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 Likes: 147
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 Likes: 147 |
A Casino, the Rock Hall, Sports Venues, are a good start.
Is there a decent Museum downtown?
Some sort of family fun park nearby would be helpful as well.
You need to provide for people of all ages, so families will consider it a destination. I don't think most people consider Cleveland unless they have family in the area.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,163 Likes: 845
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,163 Likes: 845 |
Some of the finest museums in the world are within 15 minutes of downtown.
Severance Hall and one of the Top 3 orchestras in the world is right there, too.
The 2nd best theater district in the U.S. - 2nd only to New York - is right there.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Work stops on Cleveland casino as
battle brews over casino tax
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