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web page Fire and police teams say city policy and budget cuts are to blame for emergency teams watching from shore while a 52-year-old man apparently took his own life in the Bay Area surf near San Francisco on Memorial Day. The San Jose Mercury News says Alameda police and firefighters responded quickly to a 911 call about an attempted suicide off Crown Beach, but firefighters could not enter the water because they are not trained in land/water rescue. Police stayed back because, they said, the victim, Raymond Zack, was suicidal and possibly violent. Zack stood in the neck-deep water for nearly an hour -- sometimes raising his arms above the surface -- before he eventually floated away about 150 yards from shore, the newspaper reports. Interim Fire Chief Mike D'Orazi said the department's water rescue program was shelved in 2009 because of budget cuts, which affected training. As a result, department policy prevented firefighters from going into the water in such cases. "We're not trained to go into the water. Obviously, the type of gear that we have on, we don't have the type of equipment that you would use to go into the water," Alameda Police Lt. Joe McNiff said, KGO TV reports. "Well, if I was off duty, I would know what I would do, but I think you're asking me my on-duty response, and I would have to stay within our policies and procedures because that's what's required by our department to do," Alameda Fire Division Chief Ricci Zombeck said when asked by KGO TV ABC7 if he would enter the water to save a drowning child. At one point, Zack floated 150 yards out, but that was too shallow for a U.S. Coast Guard boat to reach him and its helicopter was on another call and arrived too late. Eventually, when the tide brought the body closer to shore, a passerby swam out and pulled it onto the beach, witnesses said, according to the newspaper. Mayor Marie Gilmore promises an investigation into the incident, the Mercury News reports. At a hearing Tuesday evening, the policy that prevented trained people from intervening and rescuing people in distress was changed, NBC Bay Area reports.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I'm utterly angered and outraged at this. What do they think their jobs as police officers and firemen are?
What's more outrageous is that they are trying to pull the political card on this. "Oh we couldn't do it because of budget constraints that cut our water rescue training." This wasn't in fast moving waters or high wavy waters or even water that goes over your head. This was shoulder high water in a bay with minimal waves. And yet they want to make it out like they couldn't do it because of the budget didn't allow it. These are the same professions that beg for more and more money and benefits by claiming they risk their lives every day on the job, and yet didn't do anything to try to pull this guy back to shore, in fact a passerby eventually went into the water and pulled his body out. This is an utter waste.
Policy? Screw policy. If my son was out their drowning, I'd want them to go out and save him, policy or no policy. Afraid of lawsuits? Well I hope they get a hefty lawsuit from this inactivity on duty when they are suppose to be out there protecting lives.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I disagree.
.
In this case the guy was standing in neck deep water.
If you are standing in neck deep water, you aren't drowning.
If someone is standing out on a ledge 10 stories up, I don't expect anyone to crawl out there to get the person.
Sure....you try to talk them in, which I am sure was done here.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
I disagree.
.
In this case the guy was standing in neck deep water.
If you are standing in neck deep water, you aren't drowning.
If someone is standing out on a ledge 10 stories up, I don't expect anyone to crawl out there to get the person.
Sure....you try to talk them in, which I am sure was done here.
Well he probably did end up drowning by succumbing to hypothermia in 54 degree water, which is left out in this article. But instead of going in after him, they just stand idly by and to make matters worse, they let another passerby who wasn't a police officer or fire official to go into the water to drag his body out.
There have been little mention about the fear of pushing him further. It's mostly been mention to be a result of policy and budget cuts.
These quotes are a bit discerning for me.
"We're not trained to go into the water. Obviously, the type of gear that we have on, we don't have the type of equipment that you would use to go into the water," Alameda Police Lt. Joe McNiff said, KGO TV reports.
and
"Well, if I was off duty, I would know what I would do, but I think you're asking me my on-duty response, and I would have to stay within our policies and procedures because that's what's required by our department to do," Alameda Fire Division Chief Ricci Zombeck said when asked by KGO TV ABC7 if he would enter the water to save a drowning child.
"Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I think you are underestimating the danger of this situation. If the guy was 150 yards out, it was going to likely take 5-10 minutes in cold water just to get out to the guy, then much longer to fight with and drag him back in. It also said the guy was possibly violent (probably based on what he was saying), so there was no guarantee they would even been able to move him at all.
When you consider that hypothermia can set in as early as 10 minutes after entering the water, and you also consider that they didn't have the proper equipment to maintain body temp, you can't blame them for not going in.
Also, the article tries to compare this to saving a child. Not a fair comparison. A child likely wouldn't fight the rescuer, and also is much smaller and easier to drag in than an adult, possibly violent man resulting in much less time in cold waters.
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Quote:
a 52-year-old man apparently took his own life
He got what he asked for, good riddance.
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He got what he asked for, good riddance.
My thoughts exactly. Waste of money to even have crews standing by watching this idiot.
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I agree with you on being upset on how they used this situation to be portrayed in the media and the usage of the child substitute in the story was over the top.
Also, here is how I expect the situation to play out if it was a child drowning (if their policy is truly restrictive in this manner):
Firefighter: There's a kid drowning. Chief, I need the rest of the day off.
Chief: Ok.
Firefighter dives in the water and saves the kid.
#gmstrong
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This is just like the guy a few months back that lost his house while firefighters watched because he had not paid his dues.
That's what this country is becoming, a place where a life is less important than money and politics.
SHAME. And if this is the America YOU want... SHAME ON YOU.
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Quote:
This is just like the guy a few months back that lost his house while firefighters watched because he had not paid his dues.
That's what this country is becoming, a place where a life is less important than money and politics.
SHAME. And if this is the America YOU want... SHAME ON YOU.
No - this is NOTHING like the guy that watched his house burn. He lived in an area that had no fire protection unless he paid a few bucks per month. He chose to NOT pay the money.
You see, that guys situation is really no different than if I chose to not pay my home insurance. That's my right. (if there is no lien on the house). But if something happened to my house - say a fire - all the ashes would be mine.
What happened with/to this guy is NOTHING like the guy that watched his house burn.
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Quote:
Quote:
He got what he asked for, good riddance.
My thoughts exactly. Waste of money to even have crews standing by watching this idiot.
Wow. Have you ever seen someone that is mentally ill have a breakdown? I mean a person who functions normally most of the time, though has episodes where they become extremely depressed and suicidal? One who possibly has a family and other people who love him? One who may have missed a few doses of medication? One who may have experienced a traumatic event exacerbating the symptoms of an emotional disorder?
Good riddance? Sheesh. I think someone with a conscience would want a little more information before making such a cold hearted statement.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Agreed.
@arch - wrong. You see it as a payment not being made. I see it as common decency to come to the aid of a neighbor. They could have saved his house and added a bill to his taxes for the expense.
I try to stay out of most of these arguments on here, but I'm damn tired of all the ME ME ME types who only give a ... if it cost them or effects them. Bunch a Braylons. If you see somebody drowning, you TRY to save them if at all possible. If you see a house burning and happen to be sitting in a fire truck, SHAME ON YOU if you don't break out the hose.
You can't take your money with you! It's just a tool, nothing more.
When you have a heart attack stressin' over your money, how are you going to feel when nobody shows up because they don't want to waste their gas?
People who think like that are heartless and GUTLESS.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 06/02/11 09:40 PM.
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You're missing the point. I made no comment about the guy in the water and the inaction by the police or fire department.
All I said was it has absolutely nothing in common with the guy that refused to pay for fire protection, then watched his house burn down. Nothing in common or similar what so ever.
As for your comment about "..you can't take your money with you..." you are correct. Some choose to use it wisely, some want to screw the system. But when the system follows the laws, SOME get upset about it.
The guy had a choice - pay for fire protection and get it, or don't pay and don't get it. He made the choice - not the fire department. See, contrary to what some think, services like that do cost money.
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Quote:
Have you ever seen someone that is mentally ill have a breakdown?
Several of them in fact , not a fun thing to witness to be sure.
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One who possibly has a family and other people who love him?
At some point I would hope there would have had to have been at least a few.
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I think someone with a conscience would want a little more information before making such a cold hearted statement.
It's a cold hard world out there . If he was mentally ill now he is no longer suffering if not then he is where he wanted to be . Why can't these people just slink off alone and do the deed in a private place ? Why drag other people to watch the end of your existence ?
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you ever seen someone that is mentally ill have a breakdown?
Several of them in fact , not a fun thing to witness to be sure.
And you would still tell them "good riddance"?
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It's a cold hard world out there . If he was mentally ill now he is no longer suffering if not then he is where he wanted to be .
But "good riddance"? If he was mentally ill, there's a good chance some medication would have ended his suffering. I know it's a cold hard world, but does that rationalize enjoying someone's self-inflicted demise?
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Why can't these people just slink off alone and do the deed in a private place ? Why drag other people to watch the end of your existence ?
You're asking why someone with a mental illness can't make rational, thoughtful decisions?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Mental illnessess are all in your head.
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Mental illnessess are all in your head.
That's crazy!
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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You don't understand how I can be so callous ? I understand that . It turns out the guy had a history of depression and mental illness for most of his life and was unemployed for at least the last 20 years . Quote:
I know it's a cold hard world, but does that rationalize enjoying someone's self-inflicted demise?
Enjoy it ? Went back and read everything I posted and I couldn't find refrence to enjoyment anywhere so maybe you took something uninteneded away from what I typed.You assume that his choice was made because his illness didn't let him see another way out of his lifelong predicament. You also assume that life is in and of itself something to be held onto at all costs .. I would say that there are times when death might be an attactive alternative ( obviously this guy did ) .
I called the guy an idiot because that was my initial reaction and it is easier for me to think of him that way than it is for me to try and delve into his actual reasons for doing what he did . Call it a coping mechanism call it callousness call it what you will . Suicide IMO is a very selfish act in most cases but in this case it seems like it was just the end of the road .
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I called the guy an idiot because that was my initial reaction and it is easier for me to think of him that way than it is for me to try and delve into his actual reasons for doing what he did . Call it a coping mechanism call it callousness call it what you will . Suicide IMO is a very selfish act in most cases but in this case it seems like it was just the end of the road .
I agree with that. Plus, he put other peoples lives in danger should they have attempted to save him from killing himself. If you risk your own life for a cry for help, then you get to accept the fate if they can't save you.
As far as the Fire Department thingy goes, if a person refuses to pay for the fire service expecting he'll never need it, then he gets to watch his house burn. That's the freaking deal, the dues are for the service of putting his house out in the case it caught fire......NOT, don't pay and then get it put out anyway. He made the choice. I'm guessing the fire department was there in case the fire spread to a house that did pay their dues.
Why would anyone pay the dues if the fire department was obligated to put it out regardless?
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Enjoy it ? Went back and read everything I posted and I couldn't find refrence to enjoyment anywhere so maybe you took something uninteneded away from what I typed.
Doesn't "good riddance" indicate that you took some sort of pleasure from the suicide?
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You assume that his choice was made because his illness didn't let him see another way out of his lifelong predicament.
Correct....and given the latest I think it's a very safe assumption.
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You also assume that life is in and of itself something to be held onto at all costs ..
For the most part I think life is sacred. The only exceptions IMO are those with terminal and/or untreatable conditions where the individual is suffering.....and those that cause horrific suffering of others.
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I called the guy an idiot because that was my initial reaction and it is easier for me to think of him that way than it is for me to try and delve into his actual reasons for doing what he did . Call it a coping mechanism call it callousness call it what you will . Suicide IMO is a very selfish act in most cases but in this case it seems like it was just the end of the road .
I deal with depression and suicide in my line of work. The ones I see as selfish are the people who make phony attempts for attention, disability payments or free healthcare. Sometimes they screw up and accidentally succeed. Most of the ones that are actually serious have a treatable condition and the suicide could have been prevented. There are very few suicides committed by adults that don't have a history of mental illness, prolonged substance abuse or severe trauma.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Quote:
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Mental illnessess are all in your head.
That's crazy!
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I was shocked when I first heard the news about a man drowned in frigid waters in San Francisco Monday. Firefighters and a group of around 75 spectators stood watching what happened. The initial responders were forbidden from acting by the police, which considered the cold-water rescue too dangerous. Here is the proof: Man drowns while police and firefighters stand watching, newstype.com. So sad that a lost souls' life was wasted because saving him was against the rules.
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However, what if the would be rescuers had gone in unprepared, and died right alongside him?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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O.k that is something to consider, I just feels sad how the man became an entertainment for people watching him die.
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I highly doubt any of those people looking on were the slightest bit entertained. Most of them will be haunted by that for a long time.
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Also, many time people will make flippant comments as a method of coping with something that cannot control .... and which horrifies them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Man drowns as Rescue Responders
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