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I really like Vickers. But my opinion is worth zero. The opinions of the Browns' brass are the ones that matter. And they seem to have made other plans for the FB position. If it's in the cards that Vickers must move on, I wish him well (except against the Browns). The Browns were a bad team with Vickers. Let's see what they can do without him.
[color:"red"]"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication."
---Leonardo daVinci
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It is the official position of Heldawg and the DNC. 
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I agree... and how could a Browns fan not love a FB who puts fear into a LBer, because they know he is going to keep bringing it on every play and at 110% level of intensity. I hate to see talent go down the road even if we have the latest new model. 25 years ago you would have been hard pressed to find a roster without two FB's on it. Nowadays you could say the opposite is true. If this is the end of Vickers days in Cleveland...Then I'll wish him the best and if I could I would tell him something in parting It would be to not change a thing, because some team will be happy to have the player he was for us. Just please let it be someplace other then our division. 
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Hey, Hillis is a fullback... The new kid has good hands and can carry a load... Maybe he is Hillis' new back-up.
Vickers might still have a plce here. Food for thought...
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Other RFAs on the team were tendered. Vickers, Elam, and Roth were not.
The 2011 salary cap was $128 million. I can't see it dropping all that much. The tender for players with 5 years and right of 1st refusal plus a pick in the players original round was $1.26 million.
That's a pretty tiny percentage of the salary cap.
If the Browns wanted these players back, they would have tendered them.
Oh yeah,, you are probably right about all that. Just saying, things can change... But I doubt they will... Vickers, Elam and Roth are gone.....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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It's possible that Shurmer and Heckert could have been undecided if they want to carry more than one FB on the roster and may now believe it's desireable to do so. We can only speculate about that and the contract issues at this point.
Blocking fullbacks are a dime a dozen. Charles Ali could not run or catch, but he sure could block. Where is he now?
It's possible that Roth, Vickers and Elam are offered contracts after the lock-out is lifted. Stuckey, IMO, is gone.
PS
If it's any indication.....
Both Womack and Yates were not re-signed either. Yates is our back-up center and Womack is our back-up tackle. I see those guys getting calls the same day as the lock-out is lifted.
I'm not a big Elam fan, but right now,, who would we put in his place even as a back-up? He will prolly get an offer the Browns feel is reasonable.
Last edited by Line Judge; 06/06/11 08:58 AM.
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I could see us keeping 4 or 5 RB. That's what the Rams kept.
Maybe even 5 or 6 depending on how the labor situation washes out as far as roster sizes and such.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Also, if the team wanted to keep Vickers they could have tendered him a contract because under the old CBA he was a restricted free agent.
They tendered Evan Moore, Eric Wright, and D'Qwell Jackson (and signed him to an extension). If they wanted to keep Vickers they would have made it as difficult as possible for other teams to get him.
This is it, right here. I am really, REALLY going to hate it if the Steelers or the Ravens (or even the Bungles) pick up Vickers. They could have had Vickers back cheap, but they didn't even offer him a contract tender.
Honestly, I am completely over the whole "they're the front office, they know more than us, we need to trust them" bullcrap. We said that with Davis, Crennel/Savage, Kokinis/Mangini, and now with Holmgren/Heckert.
Lawrence Vickers did everything right. He played hard. He played well. He showed enthusiasm for the team. Now we're letting him walk, why? Because Marecic played both ways ni college? And we're only going to use him as a fullback? I don't get it. I don't get it.
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Honestly, I am completely over the whole "they're the front office, they know more than us, we need to trust them" bullcrap.
So, are you saying "WE" know more than the front office? 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It's like a broken record in here sometimes.
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Quote:
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Honestly, I am completely over the whole "they're the front office, they know more than us, we need to trust them" bullcrap.
So, are you saying "WE" know more than the front office?
It would be hard for any of "US" to have known less than the last 3 or 4 regimes did ........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Everyone on the same page is just refreshing. I know a lot are upset with the possiblity of losing Vickers and I truly want him to stay as well but Marecic is a solid pick for the scheme and probably a better fit than Vickers but 4th and 1 on the goal and I want Vickers leading the way for Hillis both would be nice WishBONE.
Also since we are moving away from the 3-4 we wont have all those linebackers on special teams so having a couple full backs out there especially on returns will really help.
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Quote:
Quote:
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Honestly, I am completely over the whole "they're the front office, they know more than us, we need to trust them" bullcrap.
So, are you saying "WE" know more than the front office?
It would be hard for any of "US" to have known less than the last 3 or 4 regimes did ........
I don't think that's true at all. in fact, name me one person on here that predicted all the right moves that should have been made...
And don't tell me about folks that said it all after the fact,, I can hire a monkey to do that...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No one picked all the right guys but I'll put my batting average against all the previous regimes and destroy them lol. considering we are batting like .100 in rounds 2-4, I would say just about anyone around here would have done better.
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and it's not like it was much better in round1 either. despite near-constant top10 picks.
#gmstrong
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No one picked all the right guys but I'll put my batting average against all the previous regimes and destroy them lol. considering we are batting like .100 in rounds 2-4, I would say just about anyone around here would have done better.
I wasn't speaking of just the draft, I was speaking of the entire package.. such as running the team from top to bottom.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Did Mike Wallace start right out of the gate? I don't think he did but I could be mistaken.
Wallace was the 3rd WR behind Ward and Holmes his first year.....So officially not a starter (well, except for games that the Steelers started in a 3 WR set) He did play a lot. It was his play that year that helped pave the way for the Santonio trade to the Jets.
HACK
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For the most part this team has been a 2-5 win team.
I think that most of us could have put together that level of talent given the draft and free agency, together with an owner with deep pockets.
Against some of the front offices we've had, a pair of monkeys with a dartboard would stack up favorably.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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For the most part this team has been a 2-5 win team.
I think that most of us could have put together that level of talent given the draft and free agency, together with an owner with deep pockets.
Against some of the front offices we've had, a pair of monkeys with a dartboard would stack up favorably.
It doesn't really matter,,, we can both say differently, but we can't prove it.
I do think that some on here take themselvesl way to seriously about thier level of ability to manage or coach a team..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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several years ago the joke was that someone could do a better job of drafting using Elvis's draft guide. But there is more to a GM job than drafting players, If you don't believe me, go root for Buffalo 
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On the drafting, IMO just having the same people doing it, with the same goals in mind, three or more years in a row will go a long way towards solving the problem.
The fact that we have not tendered Vickers a new contract may not be such a big clue. As mentioned, we haven't tendered Elam either and we don't have anybody even close for a replacement. The money for a fullback isn't that large.
Two fullbacks may not be such a stretch as we only have Hillis and Hardesty at running back, Maybe Bell at #5. As a football player, I'd rather have Vickers but if we need somebody to run the ball, I think it'd have to be Bell.
I do like what Vickers brings in blocking but he hasn't shown much else. Maybe he can produce a bit more if used differently.
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You mean you don't like Sabby Piscitelli?
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Talent and the desire to succeed wins football games.Yhis team is woefully lacking.
Vickers has both in spades.
Allowing talented players to just walk out the door has never been,nor ever willbe a reciept for success.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Talent and the desire to succeed wins football games.Yhis team is woefully lacking.
Vickers has both in spades.
Allowing talented players to just walk out the door has never been,nor ever willbe a reciept for success.
Obviously, there is more to the story than it sounds. The team isn't talking about Vickers,, only Vickers is talking so we only get one side of the story.
Not saying this happened, but what if Vickers made a big stink about Mangini getting fired? Again, not saying he did, but what if?
Or maybe it was something else. Or it could just be, they don't think he's good enough or the right fit..
who knows.. But neither Heckert or Holmgren appear to be dumb guys.. There has to be a backstory to all this that would or could make some sense if we knew it. You don't just get rid of a guy that performed without a plan and/or a reason.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Obviously, there is more to the story than it sounds. The team isn't talking about Vickers,, only Vickers is talking so we only get one side of the story.
Why is that obvious? We've seen before players get replaced just because shot-callers wanted to put their own stamp on things.
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There has to be a backstory to all this that would or could make some sense if we knew it. You don't just get rid of a guy that performed without a plan and/or a reason.
I don't agree that there must be a good explanation. I'd like to believe that there is one, but I'm done giving the benefit of the doubt to the guys just because they hold the position.
***edit*** if that were the case... with all the "upgrades" we've made we should be 5x super bowl champs by now.
Last edited by CleveSteve; 06/06/11 04:09 PM.
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Quote:
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Obviously, there is more to the story than it sounds. The team isn't talking about Vickers,, only Vickers is talking so we only get one side of the story.
Why is that obvious? We've seen before players get replaced just because shot-callers wanted to put their own stamp on things.
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There has to be a backstory to all this that would or could make some sense if we knew it. You don't just get rid of a guy that performed without a plan and/or a reason.
I don't agree that there must be a good explanation. I'd like to believe that there is one, but I'm done giving the benefit of the doubt to the guys just because they hold the position.
***edit*** if that were the case... with all the "upgrades" we've made we should be 5x super bowl champs by now.
You don't feel there is more to the story? why?
I didn't say there was a good explaination, I said they has to be more to it than just letting a good player get away.. Tell me, what's wrong with that?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You don't feel there is more to the story? why?
I didn't say there was a good explaination, I said they has to be more to it than just letting a good player get away.. Tell me, what's wrong with that?
I don't feel there is more to the story because we haven't heard any reason why other than "Vickers is not a fit for the WCO" from anybody. We would have heard something by now. Vickers says he wants to be a Brown. The Browns could have offered him a contract tender (even the lowest one) if they wanted to keep him around. By not even offering original-round pick compensation (which is something like $700k) they are saying "go ahead and walk away. This rookie will replace you." The issue is clearly not money nor CBA uncertainty, since they tendered offers to other players.
You did say that it was "obvious" that there were significant reasons we weren't privvy to that would make it make sense, even if we didn't like it. I say that we have seen it happen enough times where that was not the case, or that the judgement of the person was so terribly wrong, that it can't be taken for granted that it's the right move for the football team.
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You don't feel there is more to the story? why?
I didn't say there was a good explaination, I said they has to be more to it than just letting a good player get away.. Tell me, what's wrong with that?
I don't feel there is more to the story because we haven't heard any reason why other than "Vickers is not a fit for the WCO" from anybody. We would have heard something by now. Vickers says he wants to be a Brown. The Browns could have offered him a contract tender (even the lowest one) if they wanted to keep him around. By not even offering original-round pick compensation (which is something like $700k) they are saying "go ahead and walk away. This rookie will replace you." The issue is clearly not money nor CBA uncertainty, since they tendered offers to other players.
You did say that it was "obvious" that there were significant reasons we weren't privvy to that would make it make sense, even if we didn't like it. I say that we have seen it happen enough times where that was not the case, or that the judgement of the person was so terribly wrong, that it can't be taken for granted that it's the right move for the football team.
Ok, I missed something then.. did the team officially say he's not a fit for the WCO? Cause I didn't hear it..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No, the team didn't say anything explicitly. However, they did say you need to "be able to block, run, and catch the ball" in order to play in Shurmur's backfield. Holmgren also said a backfield of Hardesty and Hillis was "something (he) can get excited about." They also drafted a FB in the 4th round. When talking about him, Heckert said "I don't know if you guys got a chance to talk to him, but he's a legit fullback. I mean he can lead block, he can catch the ball, he can run the football, but obviously his strength is blocking and catching." He then went on to offer this gem when asked what the draft selection meant for Vickers: "We'll see [about Vickers] when we get back to the league rules," said Heckert. I'd like to try and find some more points here, but I am trying to get a modicum of work done before heading home 
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So then, nothing was said about Vickers specifically?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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When does a general manager ever comment on a player who is not under contract?
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When does a general manager ever comment on a player who is not under contract?
Didn't comment on him while under contract either..not that I can remember.
The point I was trying to make was pretty simple,, nobody but Vickers is talking.. only one side is being revealed.. anyone else think there is another side to all this? I do.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Agreed. Hell, he was injured for a lot of last year, maybe it is something medical or atleast a medical uncertainty that made Heckert go hmm we better start making plans. Bottom line, with or without Vickers we got the FB position covered
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Agreed. Hell, he was injured for a lot of last year, maybe it is something medical or atleast a medical uncertainty that made Heckert go hmm we better start making plans.
Bottom line, with or without Vickers we got the FB position covered
Exactly why while I loved what Vickers brought to the table, we aren't going to be hurting at that position at all...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I really like Vickers. But my opinion is worth zero. The opinions of the Browns' brass are the ones that matter. And they seem to have made other plans for the FB position. If it's in the cards that Vickers must move on, I wish him well (except against the Browns). The Browns were a bad team with Vickers. Let's see what they can do without him.
Vickers made the browns a BETTER team with his punishing run blocking. I bet if you could Ask Peyton Hillis what HE THINKS about the Browns NOT needing Vickers he would have a strong opinion. In my opinion, handing a job to a rookie instead of having him beat out the veteran is something the Browns think tanks have done with mind numbing regularity. I had hoped Heckert Holmgren would be different...yet we pushed Wimbley out the door and talked up a part time LBer. We pushed out Rogers and handed the position to a college fatso with weight and conditioning issues as well.
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Vickers made the browns a BETTER team with his punishing run blocking.
I feel scared...I agree with akronjoe about something.
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I bet if you could Ask Peyton Hillis what HE THINKS about the Browns NOT needing Vickers he would have a strong opinion.
Uh oh, two sentences in a row. I must be sick.
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In my opinion, handing a job to a rookie instead of having him beat out the veteran is something the Browns think tanks have done with mind numbing regularity.
Whew! Everything is going back to normal.
What rookies were handed a starting job? Joe Haden? No. Alex Mack? No. Brady Quinn and Colt McCoy? No and no. Joe Thomas? Yes, but I'd say that was justified. And why does a rookie need to compete? Everyone knows why he was drafted. To take that job. If he sucks you figure out something else.
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I had hoped Heckert Holmgren would be different...yet we pushed Wimbley out the door and talked up a part time LBer.
We traded Wimbley for a third round pick. At the time we were running a 3-4 defense and Wimbley hadn't had much success. And he had contract issues coming up. That third round pick was used to take Colt McCoy. If he turns out to be any good at all that is a major win for us.
And what part time linebacker? Matt Roth? Marcus Bernard? And it's not like Wimbley was a three down player anyway as he couldn't cover.
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We pushed out Rogers and handed the position to a college fatso with weight and conditioning issues as well.
We pushed Rogers out because he was an out of shape and often injured player who couldn't play every down and made a lot of money. And reading up on Phil Taylor I haven't seen the anything regarding weight and/or conditioning issues. (See for you self here, here, here, and here.)
I feel much better now.
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agreeing with AkronJoe is like Kissing your sister... a bit ickey and doesn't make you feel like more of a man But you are correct, I think anyway, that he got a couple of things right in that post.. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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agreeing with AkronJoe is like Kissing your sister... a bit ickey and doesn't make you feel like more of a man
But you are correct, I think anyway, that he got a couple of things right in that post..
What do you know, I lived long enough to see "ickey" posted on the internet. 
#GMSTRONG
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agreeing with AkronJoe is like Kissing your sister... a bit ickey and doesn't make you feel like more of a man
But you are correct, I think anyway, that he got a couple of things right in that post..
Agreeing with anybody but your own opinion my guess manifests the same feeling. Let the Rookie Beat out Vickers, if he can. Don't shove him out the door.
We will see if shoving out Shaun Rogers out the door was a good idea by what he does on the field not your opinion of a player pushing past an achilles injury.
I think pushing out a devastating blocker when you did very little to address offensive line issues and drafted no RB help for Hillis and are counting on perennially injured Hardesty is beyond foolish.
Oh, when we pushed Edwards out the door Rookies were handed a starting position and we STILL have the worst set of WRS in the NFL. Oh, a final thought, oft repeated on the ravens board is Ozzie is dumping his FB and salivating at the prospect of Vickers. I guess someone appreciates great blocking aside from Hillis.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Vickers bewildered by FB pick in
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