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Hopefully he stabilizes the top of our rotation.
I wonder what happens now. Huff has pitched lights out since coming up. Does he stay in the rotation? If not, does he bump Carasco or Carmona? (both of whom have struggled)
Man I hope we come up with a right handed bat that doesn't cost us the rest of our Minor League system.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see carascco go down. Carmona has been great the past few starts. Carlos is a mess, as he can't control his emotions.
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Quote:
CBS says that it's Matt McBride, Drew Pomeranz and Alex White in the deal.
http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/31000402
I'll go on record as saying I don't like this trade a bit....Pomeranz will be consistent 18-20 game winner. White is a strong #3
I would veto that in a heartbeat. Double veto. Man, that would be murder while your whole family watches.
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http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmcpGXf5gAu4iZi1phEMHY85nYcB?slug=ap-rockies-jimeneztradeconfirmed by Jimenez himsef. Shapiro err Antonetti better be right about this. The positive is that this isn't a rental this guy could be locked up until 2014. The money is very dolan-esque in his deal so payroll doesn't take a huge hit. I don't know if this guy is an ace, and what we gave up would demand one in return. I honestly think Masterson could turn into a legitmate ace, so if Jim can be a solid #2 I'd be really happy. I love Tomlin in your 3rd spot. That's a great shortened rotation should they make the playoffs at some point. Looks like Orlando Cabrera is on his way to SF. I understand this move, I think the team is ok with Kipnis holding things down, and I think it's a really really solid move for the Giants as they don't have to play him everyday, and with them looking like a contender again, Orlando will have another shot at being the clutch guy he's always been.
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The problem is the Indians have NO HITTING...ZERO....Yes, pitching wins but you need to score at least 2-3 runs in the playoffs, and I don't think the Indians have the horses to even do that vs playoff competition
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Respect to O. Cab for being a pro's pro here, especially mentoring Asdrubal.
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If they get in this year, I would think they view it as a bonus. Obviously they're figuring santana, kipnis, and chisenhall are key contributors by then. Plus maybe they add a piece or two in free agency. The royals added franceour, and cabrera this past year. So it could be done.
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We're gonna find out real quick what this team is made of, and if we will see them in October. I think if they don't get through this meat grinder of a 3 week run, they will be well out of it.
at Fenway for 4, at Texas, home with Detroit and Minnesota, at Chicago, at Detroit.
19 games, August 1 through August 21st.
Wow. You will know everything you need to know about the 2011 Cleveland Indians on August 22.
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Looking at his stats he has the 4th best FIP on the road over the past 3 seasons so maybe I can expect better numbers because he's played in Colorado?
I won't try and defend this deal because I don't like it, but did we really get "raped"? We're talking about potential starters in exchange for a guy who looks like he's pretty good.
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So the Indians traded a handful of prospects for a 27 year old #1 and people are upset?  While it's an aggressive move the only player they traded, who has any MLB experience, was Alex White (and he's coming off a very tricky injury for a pitcher). While I certainly think Pomeranz will be an MLB arm, how can you predict how he'll fair in the majors. He's still in AA. After a slow start, Jimenez has been great the last 2 months. Since June 1st, he has a 2.58 ERA and 63 strikeouts in 66 1/3 innings. AND he's doing that while pitching half his games at Coors Field. This guy is a STUD. Also don't overlook how good of a value it is for Cleveland. Jiminez has two years left on a 4 year, 10 million dollar deal plus a team option for 13-14'. And no, that number (10 million total) is not a misprint. I'd rather bet on a 27 year old pitcher with a MLB track record than hope a AA pitcher and a rookie coming off a finger injury pan out. I applaud the Indians FO for being aggressive. They have a very nice young pitching staff moving forward. Jiminez, Masterson and Tomlin is a very strong top 3. The Indians need to score some runs but getting Choo / Sizemore back and possibly Ludwick coming in should help. I also can't believe San Fran traded Thomas Neal for O-Cab. That is a steal for the Indians. He's an OF prospect who has played very well at AAA (hit .295 in 60 games this season in Fresno). He probably doesn't help them this year but he's a young guy who's knocking on the door right now.
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I just hate giving up both of their top young pitchers. I doubt that anyone had better talent to offer.
If we can add a strong right handed bat, we might just make a dangerous run.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All Pro
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All we can do is hope....While the Browns have chosen to sign only average players the Indians have went out and signed a Impact player , lets hope we get that impact Right Handed Bat....The Browns should have also signed a few actual Impact Players....and yes , I understand that the Indians are actually Good and in the race for the division and the Browns at this point in the eyes of most....not so much....
The Mammal
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Quote:
Also don't overlook how good of a value it is for Cleveland. Jiminez has two years left on a 4 year, 10 million dollar deal plus a team option for 13-14'. And no, that number (10 million total) is not a misprint.
Unfortunately, now that Jiminez has been traded, he can void the $8 million club option for 13-14' if he chooses to. So, we know we'll have him through 2013 for $10 million. That's the good news. What makes me a bit wary of this deal is that the Rockies traded him when THEY could have him through 2014 for only $18 million. If this guy is such a stud, why would the Rockies just give up that kind of value? It doesn't make any sense. I'm afraid they know/fear something about this kid that we don't (yet). We'll see... 
Meanwhile, our need for hitting goes unresolved... 
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Sometimes hindsight can be useful ... I was thinking back to when the Indians could have traded can't-miss phenom Jaret Wright for Pedro Martinez in his prime and didn't. Having said that, I have major mixed feelings about this trade because I was so impressed by Alex White in his few starts before the injury, and everything I've heard and read about Pomeranz is that he has big-time stuff. Its just that the jump from AAA to the Bigs is so huge for pitchers that its impossible to predict success. Odds are one of those two guys won't perform up to expectations, which might be why Colorado insisted on getting both. I also think its possible the Indians were a little spooked by White's finger injury, after what happened to can't-miss prospect Adam Miller.
My other thought is that the Indians believe that a.) their offensive woes are transitory, due mostly to injuries to key players, and b.) they can contend in the AL Central and now have their eye on the next step which would require beating the Yankees, Red Sox, or Texas 4 times in a 7 game series. That might be where Jimenez comes in, because we now have a solid 1-2-3 punch with Jimenez, Masterson, and Tomlin. Carrasco and Carmona round out what could be a good-to-great starting staff. Incidentally, I would place Tomlin between Jimenez and Masterson in the rotation, because he throws slop, and those two guys both have such electric stuff, it would mess with hitters to face those three in that order.
Regarding a RH bat ... FWIW, WKNR is reporting that Ryan Ludwick will be an Indian before the end of the day.
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after sleeping on it, i feel a little bit better about it. I think if the Tribe can find a way to lock up Masterson, Tomlin, and Jimenez beyond 2014, and keep that rotation in tact, they can really be in the conversation of playoffs every year, in the AL central. If they can find a way to do that, I think it's a great deal. I don't know a lot about prospects, I don't follow minor league baseball like some of you, but to give up on a left handed pitcher who's 6'5" worries me. Is Ubaldo an ace? I know he's had moments, but why is he only 6-9, why is his ERA 4+? I have no issue with him giving up 4 in the first last night, it was obvious a deal was happening and he was notified of it, it became a distraction and he shouldn't have been out there. I think most tribe fans will feel better when they see him pitch, and he pitches like he can. This article by Jeff Passan also helps. http://yhoo.it/p9PZh0
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Is Ubaldo an ace? I know he's had moments, but why is he only 6-9, why is his ERA 4+?
He was injured the early part of the season, an infected nail or something like that. Since the injury has gone, his ERA is under 3. He has absolutely electric stuff. Some have complained of him losing some velocity, but it is going from 99 to 97. I think it has more to do with him shooting for more consistent mechanics than any specific problems. In any case, the Indians asked for a thorough physical just in case.
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This is something I don't understand. If the Yankees, Phillies, or Red Sox made this kind of deal to improve their chances people here would be pissed off. Well, a team like our Indians pull something that the other teams I mention do on a daily basis and the majority of the fans here are still pissed off? Yes we gave up a lot in terms of the future but the Indians are currently involved in something we haven't seen in a few years, a playoff race. To get something you gotta give up something, it's the way things are run in professional sports. We need to give this a chance. Give the Tribe front office credit for having the guts to get this done. I believe they aren't done yet. Let's enjoy this.
"My opinions and feelings are mine and shall not be influenced by anyone....especially liberals."
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I really like the move. The Indians best position prospects will be peaking in the next 2 years. We need strong pitching that we know can succeed over that time frame. Pomeranz, while excellent, there is no guarantee that he will be an ace right away. Remember with CC it took him a few years at the big league level to become an ace. By that time, it may be that we have lost Choo and Cabrera to free agency.
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That's a good article by Passan. I was looking at Jimenez' stat line, checking the split between home and away games. His ERA is 2 runs lower on the road, with a much lower WHIP. He also fared pretty well against the AL teams he faced in interleague play (NYY, CWS, Det), going 2-0. The trouble with pitching for the Rockies is that ballpark is a launching pad. Any pitcher is liable to get lit up there.
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Quote:
That's a good article by Passan. I was looking at Jimenez' stat line, checking the split between home and away games. His ERA is 2 runs lower on the road, with a much lower WHIP. He also fared pretty well against the AL teams he faced in interleague play (NYY, CWS, Det), going 2-0. The trouble with pitching for the Rockies is that ballpark is a launching pad. Any pitcher is liable to get lit up there.
It's honestly ridiculous.
Look at the stat disparity this season:
Home (8 starts): 5.55 ERA, 1.68 WHIP, 9 HR .310 OP BA
Away (7 starts) : 3.38 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 1 HR, .184 OP BA
That park is where pitchers go to die.
Coors has a run factor of 1.41. Progressive field has a run factor of 1.02
Park Factor compares the rate of stats at home vs. the rate of stats on the road. A rate higher than 1.000 favors the hitter. Below 1.000 favors the pitcher.
So Progressive field is a pretty neutral park, while Coors field wildly favors the hitters. That should certainly help Jimenez be even more effective.
As for who Cleveland gave up, In the end, they're just prospects. It's impossible to predict how White or Pomeranz will do going forward. With Jimenez, you at least have a proven track record in an unfriendly pitching park to help project how he will fair in the future.
I think most teams would dump their top 2 pitching prospects if it it meant guaranteeing a top of the rotation starter. One thing I found interesting about the trade is according to Olney, Cleveland made it with a provision that White couldn't be issued a physical. Wonder if the Indians doctors know something they'd prefer Colorado didn't? 
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Also came across this: Over the last 10 years, Baseball America has placed a pitcher among its top 50 exactly 200 times. It’s only fair to exclude Nick Adenhart’s(notes) two years on the list, as he died early in his major league career. Of the remaining 198, just 67 made the Good list. Which means 131 times – almost exactly two-thirds – the pitcher ended up at best middling starter or a reliever with a worthwhile career and at worst on the Bad list.
And the vast majority were Bad, 96 of 131. In other words, nearly half the time a pitching prospect ranked in Baseball America’s top 50 over the past decade, his career bombed. Yahoo! Sports Article - Jeff Passan
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Quote:
I also think its possible the Indians were a little spooked by White's finger injury, after what happened to can't-miss prospect Adam Miller.
I think that might be a big part of it, actually.
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J/C
I wholly endorse this trade. I understand not wanting to give away our top two pitching prospects but we're receiving an ace. To anyone who's miffed about this trade just remember the names of Billy Traber and Brian Tallet.
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I do feel somewhat better about the deal a dat later ...... but man I hate to give up Drew Pomeranz, because I think that he is a really special talent who could make it to the Majors within the next 2 years and be a strong front line guy.
However, the Indians currently have strong starters in masterson and Tomlin, a promising guy in Huff, who has thrown 2 strong outings since being called up ...... and a lot of other guys who are, at the very least, potential #2-3 starters at any time.
If the Indians can get Carmona turned back around, they would have a dynamite rotation who can match anyone in the Majors 1-5. They have a fantastic bullpen. If they can get people back healthy and add a strong right handed bat ..... well then I like their chances against almost anyone.
This team rarely gets blown out. They have a bullpen that keeps them in every game. They have excellent starters ...... and 4 and 5 will now come down to Carmona, Huff, and Carasco.
Next year will still be Jimenez, Masterson and Tomlin .... then probably a still developing Carasco and Huff. Barnes is also still available at AAA (although he is currently injured) and Gomez. Josh Judy and Zach McAllitser are also both at AAA. This team is pretty well loaded with pitching talent .... so giving up a couple of them ..... even top guys .... can more easiy be overcome that it could be by most other teams.
Man we need a right handed bat though. We desperately need a right handed bat. We'll get Sizemore back in a couple of weeks, and Choo in a month or so (hopefully) ... so if we can stay in the race till then we should be in really good shape.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
J/C
I wholly endorse this trade. I understand not wanting to give away our top two pitching prospects but we're receiving an ace. To anyone who's miffed about this trade just remember the names of Billy Traber and Brian Tallet.
I guess we'll see. Personally, I thought Pom should have been pretty much untouchable.
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Quote:
J/C
I wholly endorse this trade. I understand not wanting to give away our top two pitching prospects but we're receiving an ace. To anyone who's miffed about this trade just remember the names of Billy Traber and Brian Tallet.
Traber and Tellet were never in Pomeranz's class.
I am not happy with the trade. If Jimenez turns out to be a true ace then I will be ok with it but I am not convinced Jimenez is a true ace. Right now i consider him a solid number 2.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Pirates acquire Ryan Ludwick for a player to be named later.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Sometimes hindsight can be useful ... I was thinking back to when the Indians could have traded can't-miss phenom Jaret Wright for Pedro Martinez in his prime and didn't. Having said that, I have major mixed feelings about this trade because I was so impressed by Alex White in his few starts before the injury, and everything I've heard and read about Pomeranz is that he has big-time stuff. Its just that the jump from AAA to the Bigs is so huge for pitchers that its impossible to predict success. Odds are one of those two guys won't perform up to expectations, which might be why Colorado insisted on getting both. I also think its possible the Indians were a little spooked by White's finger injury, after what happened to can't-miss prospect Adam Miller.
My other thought is that the Indians believe that a.) their offensive woes are transitory, due mostly to injuries to key players, and b.) they can contend in the AL Central and now have their eye on the next step which would require beating the Yankees, Red Sox, or Texas 4 times in a 7 game series. That might be where Jimenez comes in, because we now have a solid 1-2-3 punch with Jimenez, Masterson, and Tomlin. Carrasco and Carmona round out what could be a good-to-great starting staff. Incidentally, I would place Tomlin between Jimenez and Masterson in the rotation, because he throws slop, and those two guys both have such electric stuff, it would mess with hitters to face those three in that order.
Regarding a RH bat ... FWIW, WKNR is reporting that Ryan Ludwick will be an Indian before the end of the day.
You also have to remember in 07, we could've had Dan Haren from Oakland for Adam Miller. At the time Haren also had a club friendly contract like Ubaldo does. You could bet that played a part in their decision.
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I think the one thing that does make me happy is that I have said for the last few years that the only way Cleveland is going to get a big time free agent to come (NBA and MLB, NFL is not as big of a deal b/c star power is less) is either by raising your own or making a trade. The Tribe did just that. I think it is a smart move that buys them more time, as they didn't push all their chips in for this year, but still made the immediate future better. They can go into next year with a rotation of Masterson, Jimenez, Tomlin as your big 3 with the possibility of a lower mid-level free agent coming aboard (think paul byrd or kevin millwod) and a few guys like carrasco, fausto, etc fighting for those end of the rotation spots.
Like I said before, If they can find a way to lock those 3 guys up for the future, I don't think you regret that move one way or the other (pomeranz and white turning out to be studs, bums, or a just halfway decent pitchers) because in your own yard, you're doing just fine.
Apparently Ubaldo's deal has the option for 2014, but I guess it's his option. Which means if they don't lock him up, and he's pitching well, he's going CC sabathia on us. So lock him up and don't let it get to that. The guy has good stuff.
I don't think this organization can have another situation like they did in 08 and 09 dealing away multiple cy young award winners.
Ya know if you think about it, this is the same kind of thing that the Cavs need, to be able to make a trade like this. A star player in their prime coming over. You can't sign one, so you put together a package. Only problem is there are less resources in the NBA.
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Yeah, I don't understand why there isn't more of the "Look, you're signed for another 2 years at a bargain basement price. We're willing to give you an extra $5 million per year in exchange for 2 more years on your deal." ..... or whatever the "price" would be.
Instead it seem slike teams are happy to have a bargain price ... then shocked when guys walk for top dollar.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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it's in the thread, but let's say it again:
Home (8 starts): 5.55 ERA, 1.68 WHIP, 9 HR .310 OP BA
Away (7 starts) : 3.38 ERA, 1.08 WHIP, 1 HR, .184 OP BA
on the road this year, he has still been a top flight pitcher. not last year crazy
good, but still
so, is the chance pomeranz becomes an ace + a 3rd starter type (white) worth jimenez? well, obviously our FO thinks our window is these next 2.5 yrs where drew and alex would still be learning mlb.
tough call either way, but hopefully he gives us a mental boost. we'll see.
-----------
oh, and we also traded orlando cabrera. never heard of the guy we got and don't care. more ABs for Kipnis (and possibly Phelps again), while no more Orlando Cabrera. Win/Win.
#gmstrong
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Orlando Cabrera really settled the middle of the defense, and was a strong veteran presence. I like the guy. He's not a great player anymore, but he's a pro's pro, and a really good glove.
They wanted to make room for Donald (and there were rumors that they were looking for a veteran IF before the trade deadline) and they probably liked the OF we got in return ... so they pulled the trigger. They probably figured that Donald could give us at least as much as Cabrera is at this point.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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OC's defense was terrible this year. He was a vet presense that seemed to help the team in April, but he did not play well this year.
if he helped asdrubel, he was worth the signing. outside of that, it's Kipnis time.
#gmstrong
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In 407 chances, Cabrera had 6 errors. His fielding percentage is better than it has been in the past 6 years. He had a .985 fielding percentage at 2nd base, in his first season there.
For comparison, Asdrubal Cabrera has had 11 errors in 421 total chances at SS. His fielding percentage is .974.
Orlando is an older player, but he's still an effective player. He's a solid, if not spectacular 2nd baseman at this stage.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think the knock on Orlando was his limited range. The guy always had a hard time going to his right. He did make the routine play for the most part.
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The best news of the trade is Ubaldos contract and he is 27.
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Yeah he did .... but that was not as big a factor at 2nd base as it would have been at SS.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
you lauded his defense, i was pointing out that his defense was not up to his standards (and really average, which is bad when you see his bat). trella pointed out his limited range and I would also like to add that he was poor at turning DPs.
but, let's it go now. he's gone. a member of the Giants and I wish him well as long as we don't face him in the WS (and really, if it comes down to it, I'd be pretty happy getting that far this year regardless)
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
The best news of the trade is Ubaldos contract and he is 27.
very true. one more thing that pushed me more solidly into the Ubaldo-trade-is-good camp:
Jaret Wright (+prospects) for Pedro Martinez. that trade was on the table for John Hart and he passed it up because he thought Jaret was on his way to becoming a top flight starting pitcher. noone really blames him as he looked great in the postseason, but it remains the single biggest "what if" of the 90's Tribe.
we can also add Fausto Carmona as a prospect that looked like we hit on for sure and what he has done since that great initial year.
basically, getting the young veteran who has proven he can get the job done (and is still doing it as long as he's not in Coors), is likely worth the price tag even if it is a great young arm.
I think we paid a ton, probably more than we should have, but hopefully it pans out for us (getting into the playoffs this year and then solidifying our rotation the next 2 at least)
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205 |
I was disappointed to hear that Jimenez told Manny Acta that he was "mentally beat up", and would prefer to wait until the Rangers series to make his first start, even though he would be on schedule to pitch Thursday night in Fenway. You kinda hope that your ace would be more of a "gimme the ball" type.
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