Quote: There is an exception to every rule and plays can be called to favor either or, but usually your SE is a possession guy, but he could also be a deep threat. TO was a guy who could do both equally well.
With that said, I still don't want him on my team.
I'm glad you don't want him... Both Shumer and Heckert were in Philly when he went all nutty buddy on them. I doubt they will ever want to put up with that again...ever
It just makes no since for us to bring in an old receiver let alone the baggage he comes with
In the old days (pre FA) you would develop your talent and to a lesser extend perhaps, but that's what approach we seem to be taking. We are going to have some turn over like all of the other 31 teams do, but if you give these young guys a chance to develop then they can fill the hole left by losing one to FA and for less money then you might otherwise spend on a FA from another team.
Look at any player, any one.. use only a low period in thier careers as a judging criteria and the first thought is, they aren't worth it.
Later in the season, and I won't even hazard a guess why, he seemed to turn it up a notch, Ending the season with 29 Receptions for 310 yards and 3 TD's.
Is that good enough for a number 2.. No, it's not. Is it 100% his doing, I don't think so.
This year with the new offense,, we'll know one way or the other..This is Robos year to either make it or break it. JMO
29 catches 310 yards and 3 tds, that is bad, Put it this way, how does that compare with JuJuan Dawsons last year, or 2nd to last year, and he wasn't good enough to stay on the team.
I would say that LAST year was Robo's year to make it or break it, he broke it and THIS is his year to watch somebody else make it or break it and if they don't make it, then he can have a 2nd chance. The 4 2nd rounders of the 99 -2001 Browns all had better years by year 2 than this, ( I'll guess with confidence without even looking) Kevin Johnson, JuJuan Dawson, Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis , and Dennis Northcutt all did better than Robo their 2nd year with the team, Look also at Antonio Bryant, and it is a pattern.
I like Mo Massaquoi, I like Robiskie Too! But If you are not on pace to get 50 or 60 catches in a whole year, and if you have someone like Demetrius Williams standing around watching, then you have to give someone else playing time.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Look at any player, any one.. use only a low period in thier careers as a judging criteria and the first thought is, they aren't worth it.
Later in the season, and I won't even hazard a guess why, he seemed to turn it up a notch, Ending the season with 29 Receptions for 310 yards and 3 TD's.
Is that good enough for a number 2.. No, it's not. Is it 100% his doing, I don't think so.
This year with the new offense,, we'll know one way or the other..This is Robos year to either make it or break it. JMO
29 catches 310 yards and 3 tds, that is bad, Put it this way, how does that compare with JuJuan Dawsons last year, or 2nd to last year, and he wasn't good enough to stay on the team.
I would say that LAST year was Robo's year to make it or break it, he broke it and THIS is his year to watch somebody else make it or break it and if they don't make it, then he can have a 2nd chance. The 4 2nd rounders of the 99 -2001 Browns all had better years by year 2 than this, ( I'll guess with confidence without even looking) Kevin Johnson, JuJuan Dawson, Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis , and Dennis Northcutt all did better than Robo their 2nd year with the team, Look also at Antonio Bryant, and it is a pattern.
I like Mo Massaquoi, I like Robiskie Too! But If you are not on pace to get 50 or 60 catches in a whole year, and if you have someone like Demetrius Williams standing around watching, then you have to give someone else playing time.
None of those guys had Jake Delhomme throwing them passes either.
And what about Williams? I hope he plays great, but he has 63 catches total...........in 5 seasons! Never more than 22 in a season.
statistics are great if you put them into context. otherwise they are worthless.
you did not put Robiskie's numbers into the context that he was as absent from the first half of last year as he was his rookie year. we all pretty much gave up hope. then, miraculously (and tieing in w/ Colt taking over the team), Robiskie put up nearly all of those numbers you site in the last 1/4 of the season.
was it a mirage? possibly. was it a WR that took 1.5 seasons to progress? possibly. will he continue to progress? maybe.
also, your last line made me laugh. so, thank you.
Quote: If you are not on pace to get 50 or 60 catches in a whole year, and if you have someone like Demetrius Williams standing around watching, then you have to give someone else playing time.
the same Demetrius Williams who has 4 full NFL seasons under his belt and has never done better than his rookie year (22rec, 396yds, 2TDs), which is worse than what Robiskie did last year (less yards, but more rec. and TDs)
Quote: statistics are great if you put them into context. otherwise they are worthless.
you did not put Robiskie's numbers into the context that he was as absent from the first half of last year as he was his rookie year. we all pretty much gave up hope. then, miraculously (and tieing in w/ Colt taking over the team), Robiskie put up nearly all of those numbers you site in the last 1/4 of the season.
was it a mirage? possibly. was it a WR that took 1.5 seasons to progress? possibly. will he continue to progress? maybe.
also, your last line made me laugh. so, thank you.
Quote: If you are not on pace to get 50 or 60 catches in a whole year, and if you have someone like Demetrius Williams standing around watching, then you have to give someone else playing time.
the same Demetrius Williams who has 4 full NFL seasons under his belt and has never done better than his rookie year (22rec, 396yds, 2TDs), which is worse than what Robiskie did last year (less yards, but more rec. and TDs)
After Throw Long tossed that out, I just threw up my hands and said,, No,, I don't want to engage in this nonsense..]
stats are wonderul things aren't they
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Williams 1st two years 25/5 25 games 5 starts 42, 686, 2 tds
........
D Williams 2008 balt. 7 games 0 starts, 13 catch 180 1 td
2009 balt 12 game 0 starts 8 catch 142 1 td
2010 cleve. 2 games 0 starts 0 catches 0 0 td
Williams; last 3 years 21/0 21 games 0 starts 21 catches 322 2 tds
It is not out of the question that Williams should get more playing time, if he had had the starts that Robiskie had he may have out produced him, Either way you slice it the point is if the starter is Not producing then Somebody else should get a chance to take some snaps.
( The coaches decide who starts because they see practice, if he didn't get the starts that Robiskie got it is his own fault, ) Just don't tell me Robiskie is not getting playing time, that is not a valid argument.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Williams 1st two years 25/5 25 games 5 starts 42, 686, 2 tds
........
D Williams 2008 balt. 7 games 0 starts, 13 catch 180 1 td
2009 balt 12 game 0 starts 8 catch 142 1 td
2010 cleve. 2 games 0 starts 0 catches 0 0 td
Williams; last 3 years 21/0 21 games 0 starts 21 catches 322 2 tds
It is not out of the question that Williams should get more playing time, if he had had the starts that Robiskie had he may have out produced him, Either way you slice it the point is if the starter is Not producing then Somebody else should get a chance to take some snaps.
( The coaches decide who starts because they see practice, if he didn't get the starts that Robiskie got it is his own fault, ) Just don't tell me Robiskie is not getting playing time, that is not a valid argument.
Nobody claimed he wasn't getting playing time.......
Most of the time it takes receivers a few years to "get it." Robiskie played better once we had decent QB play. He may bomb this year, but he may continue his upward trend from the end of last year.
i never said Robiskie did not get playing time in any way shape or form. where did you get that?
as for the rest of your post:
playerA has gotten less and less playing time as he 'progressed' and his statistics have degraded over time. he hasn't been able to earn his way onto the field for at least 2 different coaching staffs that desperately needed his production. his last mediocre season was in 2007.
playerB has gotten more and more playing time as he progressed and his statistics went from flat-line to trending upwards near the end of last season (which produced mediocre overall stats).
Quote: i never said Robiskie did not get playing time in any way shape or form. where did you get that?
here
Quote:
you did not put Robiskie's numbers into the context that he was as absent from the first half of last year as he was his rookie year.
Ok, you misunderstood. My fault.
By "absent" I meant that he didn't show up on the field. Even when we ran him out on the field, if you weren't watching for him, then you wouldn't know it because he did nothing. That is why I said most everyone gave up hope on him until Colt took over and he came out of nowhere to put up mediocre statistics (which is promising compared to what he did beforehand).
Quote: i never said Robiskie did not get playing time in any way shape or form. where did you get that?
here
Quote:
you did not put Robiskie's numbers into the context that he was as absent from the first half of last year as he was his rookie year.
Ok, you misunderstood. My fault.
By "absent" I meant that he didn't show up on the field. Even when we ran him out on the field, if you weren't watching for him, then you wouldn't know it because he did nothing. That is why I said most everyone gave up hope on him until Colt took over and he came out of nowhere to put up mediocre statistics (which is promising compared to what he did beforehand).
Last 4 games of "mediocre" stats we 11 catches for 169 yards and 3 TD's.
Not amazing, but given what we had last eyar, that was pretty good.
Honestly, the catches and yards don't matter that much to me at all. Obviously the more the better, but if we have a receiver who has 20 catches, for 200 yards and 12 TD's, I'd be estatic. It will never happen, and I know you need to move the ball to get to the endzone, but the most important stat is TD's and Robiskie ended the year with 3 in 4 games.
Honestly, the catches and yards don't matter that much to me at all. Obviously the more the better, but if we have a receiver who has 20 catches, for 200 yards and 12 TD's, I'd be estatic. It will never happen, and I know you need to move the ball to get to the endzone, but the most important stat is TD's and Robiskie ended the year with 3 in 4 games.
When a Coach says "he needs to make big plays for us"
TD's immediately comes to mind, but key receptions (ie; first downs) are another and he seemed to catch his share of first down receptions in those games at the end of the last season.
This I think is Robiskie's nitch. If he can be that kind of role player and we find others who can stretch the field and make YAC, then I think that this offense can be pretty potent.
Honestly, the catches and yards don't matter that much to me at all. Obviously the more the better, but if we have a receiver who has 20 catches, for 200 yards and 12 TD's, I'd be estatic. It will never happen, and I know you need to move the ball to get to the endzone, but the most important stat is TD's and Robiskie ended the year with 3 in 4 games.
When a Coach says "he needs to make big plays for us"
TD's immediately comes to mind, but key receptions (ie; first downs) are another and he seemed to catch his share of first down receptions in those games at the end of the last season.
This I think is Robiskie's nitch. If he can be that kind of role player and wešfind others who can stretch the field and make YAC, then I think that this offense can be pretty potent.
' Steady Eddie'
Exactly. Like I said, I would be happy with the stats I stated, but they aren't logical. We need more than that because the TD catches don't come without 6 yard catches on 3rd and 4.If Robiskie can get us 1st downs, then I'll be happy as well. Keeping the offense on the field usually aids in the actually scoring points.
Exactly. Like I said, I would be happy with the stats I stated, but they aren't logical. We need more than that because the TD catches don't come without 6 yard catches on 3rd and 4. If Robiskie can get us 1st downs, then I'll be happy as well. Keeping the offense on the field usually aids in the actually scoring points.
Obviously we will need others to step up and fill other roles for his role to be successful.
The combination of MoMass and Little on the other side will have to do their part as will our slot guys (Norwood & Haggerty). With Cribbs spelling Robiskie.
Terry Robiskie Jr is much a one dimensional WR. Good hands,but not very savy in setting up CB's. Doesn't have that 2nd gear to blow the top off secondaries. and yet Mangenius took this guy 36 in the 2009 Draft. The most NFL ready WR that draft spent most of 2009 on the inactive list due to a poor work ethic and a inability to grasp the offense. Massaquoi looks the part but does everything half speed on the field it seems. Demetrius Williams is a poor mans Deion Branch. The problem with this WR core is that there is no vet that balance out the youth. Greg Little is the best WR by default. He missed a whole year and probally will end up with better numbers than Robotiskie this year.
In fairness to Mangini, most draft experts thought that Robiske would be a very steady and productive NFL WR .. just not a superstar receiver.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Anohther thread mentions Mo, Massaquoi is on the bubble.
If Massaquoi is cut, who will be any kind of a threat at wr.
We Know Robiskie stinks We Know Demitrius Williams is just a compliment type, like stuckey was. We Know Carlton Mitchell is unpolished and never has faced a year of NFL football.
Jordan Norwood, is a rookie a small over the middle type (apparently)) and no one knows what he will do against real NFL Db's
Greg Little is a Question mark just like Robiskie and Massaquoi were two, or 3 years ago
Face it Massaquoi is the ONLY guy on the roster that has potential to bring in some game experience as a real WR and had the best numbers the last 2 years on the team, of any WR still on the team.
Cribbs? I'd rather see Cribbs cut than Massaquoi, if your just going to put them both out at wr, because Cribbs is a better qb than a wr.
Just the idea of cutting a player who can't practice because he's in a walking boot , a player with significant downs who has played meaningful games and produced some ( better than Robo for sure) in favor of a bunch of 7th rounders, lets face it they're all 7th rounders and rookies.
( except for Little) It would be a big big mistake , a mistake on different levels A mistake we've seen before , Many times, like when they cut Andre, and when they cut Quincy,
#1 cutting Mass, would take away any advantage to having Mass and Little on the field at the same time, #2 cutting Massaquoi would be making the wrong WRONG choice to who would work out long term between Robiskie or Massaquoi.
3 Cutting Massaquoi would cut the only chance of ANY Wr on your team with the potential to get 65 or more catches . To re phrase that, The Only WR on your team with any type of common sense expectatin that his catch total could be in the 55-65 or more range.
YOU cut Massaquoi and you lose any benefit you got from drafting Little , and right away you'll send your team back to where it was in 1999 with a bunch of Darrin Chiavirini's runnning around.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
not trying to be a homer.. but Colt needs to sling that thing to these WRs and not just the TE's.
Yeah, if healthy, Massaquoi has played pretty well. Not great, but everyone always says the 3rd year is when the WR is "ready." Also, a lot of those highlights were Massaquoi taking a 5 yard slant route and turning it into a 20 yard gain. With this offense, that is huge, and he is very good at breaking that 1st tackle or escaping it and grabbing extra yards.
I agree, the WCO lends itself to MoMass' skill set much moreso than Robiskie. He's definitely a timing receiver, but he has to get his head around for the ball. I think with the coaches telling him exactly when he needs to be catching the passes he could improve, and it should require less adjustment, which is not his strong suit.
Well it certainly makes for a good story, but it's way too early to start writing MoMass off imo. Little is a rookie who is going to see his fair share of snaps if he can knock some of the rust off.
The first week of any type of training there is associated with that sore muscles (ie; heavy legs).
Once they work threw that and get their legs back under them, then I think we will start to see better consistency from the team and less physical mistakes.
The mental mistakes typically take a little longer when in transition to new schemes on both sides of the ball.
The NCO is big on timing and that's also a process that takes some getting it right and the only thing that does that is practice.
There are no more two a day's, so we actually could be effected by this fact this season a long with the other teams in transition.
if these WR's are wanting to succeed, they should be hitting it harder than just practice anyway if they want to make a name for themselves in this league.
I like that Mo was out there learning from some of the best... Again, not trying to be a homer, but Mo isn't the fastest, but he has some potential to be a solid WR. He gets decent separation at times, and generally catches mostly everything thrown his way.
i think a good rotation of 4 WRs is: MoMass Robo Little Cribbs
I still think Norwood, Mitchell, and Haggerty will be fighting for that last spot.. two spots if the front office don't consider Cribbs as a WR.
All this talk of MoMass being on the bubble started with some scribe on CBS Rapid Reports.. it's merely his opinion, he's got no official source telling him that.
We all DON'T know that Robo sucks
I'm thinking based on the reports (not that they are really worth much) that Little isn't that much of an unknown or even a crapshoot.
Norwood is another guy that seems to be getting lots of attention..
I just don't think we are in as bad a situation as it might first appear.. I mean, has anyone talking about these guys actually seen them play in this system yet?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
All this talk of MoMass being on the bubble started with some scribe on CBS Rapid Reports.. it's merely his opinion, he's got no official source telling him that.
LOL, talk about a dreamer.
No one's job is 100% safe in the NFL, but talk about going out on a limb.
Also (if) the team had other plans they would be looking to get something in return.
And I'm sticking with my first guess as to weather we keep Cribbs and 4 or 5 receivers. I'm going with the latter.
Robo, Little, MoMass, (big pimp daddy YTBF guy ) Norwood, with the final roster spot undetermined.
My guess at this moment is that it comes down to Mitchell and Haggerty whom I believe is a guy under the radar, but is probably the more polished of the two if not the most spectacular talent. He's a lunch box guy.
I agree. We really have no idea what we have. Especially coming from a neanderthal offense where these guys haven't had a chance to have the same QB their whole career. I think we go with 6 WR's plus look for them to split Moore and Cameron and Hillis and Hardesty out at times. Next year they draft Blackmon and a LB in round 1.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
For all you fans who want to argue, pontificate, pound your fist on the table or otherwise hope to enlighten the rest of us with your self-valued opinions on our WR's, you can take this to the bank:
No one knows what any of these guys can do in an offense designed to move the ball through the air. For the past two years the Browns offense has primarily been antique in the methods it has used to incorporate the WR's in the gameplan.
Last year especially.
Ever since the running exhibit put on by the Browns in the last 5 games in '09, (coupled with the total lack of QB play), the focus has been on the running game.
Last season, once Mangini found something that worked, (Hillis), he ran him in the ground in fear of trying anything else. Even with accurate passers like Wallace and McCoy the WR's still were only used to "keep the defense honest". I won't say the passing game was an afterthought but there was very little quality thought put into how to make it work for us.
The WR's were not used in any traditional sense. So anything that's been learned about any of them prior to this season can be thrown out the window. Forget the yardage, forget the "thrown to" stats, forget the drops, forget the "can't get open" cry of anguish.
The true test of our WR's is going to begin in 2011. Up until now those guys never even had a chance. And by that I mean, those guys never even had a chance.
The new offense will use the WR's in a much different way. Plays will actually be designed purposefully to get them open in space. The quarterback will be used to his strengths instead of trying to make him fit a scheme. Play-calling should make some sense now. I doubt very much we'll see a constant parade of calls that are primarily designed to outsmart ourselves.
At this point there is no valid WR argument for or against. Visit that discussion at the end of 2011. To debate about them now is as folly as arguing who is the better QB, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. By what measuring stick to you evaluate Great vs. Great?
And by what method do you evaluate WR's who had Anderson and Quinn throwing the ball and never had a chance in the system they were playing otherwise?
I always hated watching Non-Browns NFL games, and it always appearing that other teams (GB, Indy, NE for example) were playing on a larger feild that Cleveland was...
I mean, there was SO MUCH ROOM out there for the offenses to work with...
But It always seemed like Cleveland was playing on half a field...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
At this point there is no valid WR argument for or against. Visit that discussion at the end of 2011.
How does one debate roster battles in January
Quote:
To debate about them now is as folly as arguing who is the better QB, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. By what measuring stick to you evaluate Great vs. Great?
No one knows what any of these guys can do in an offense designed to move the ball through the air. For the past two years the Browns offense has primarily been antique in the methods it has used to incorporate the WR's in the gameplan.
Quote: Next year they draft Blackmon and a LB in round 1.
Just an FYI - Blackmon isn't the best wr that is going to be in next year's draft. Alshon Jeffries SC
Blackmon is a beast anyway you slice it..I didn't say he was the best but he will be the best for us. Made Prince (I believe) look like a little kid..
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Quote: Next year they draft Blackmon and a LB in round 1.
Just an FYI - Blackmon isn't the best wr that is going to be in next year's draft. Alshon Jeffries SC
He could be drafted higher if the Draft where held today, but Blackmon is a load after the catch.
This could all be a moot point if Little works out, because if they have a good feeling about him after the season then I don't see us drafting a WR in the first round next April.
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