DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Defense as a strength

I think that this year our defense could and will in fact be a strength.

and here is why...

a DC that is very very strong with DBs...while we may consider them a weakness. Look at what he did with relative nobodies in Buffalo...Reggie Corner, Terrence McGee, Drayton Florence (for a year), Ashton Youboty, Jarius Byrd (who took a major step back last year under Gailey), Donte Whitner (his highest pick in the DB corps), and a few others...

DBs are where he specializes...In addition, he has succeeded in the past with big DLers in the middle, just like he had in Chicago, and for a time in Jacksonville...He was never given them in Buffalo, never acquired them, and yet his defenses werent terrible. They didnt stop the run very well, but defended the pass, and created turnovers VERY well. I think he has learned, and as we've already noticed, wants to stop the run while here.


We have a great CB is Haden, a technique player in Sheldon Brown (who i think Jauron will do wonders with), and speed behind them in Skrine and Patterson...

We have a veteran LEADER and winner in Scott Fujita, a player suited for speed in DQ, and a big run stuffer in Gocong (most likely a 2-down player), and Maiava who will be our passing down player in his spot (if im correct).

our DL, we have 2 huge run stuffers in Rubin and Taylor, a small but quick Sheard, and a strong run stopper in Mitchell (as evidenced by size and strength) that can also get to the QB. In addition we have some depth, not great depth, but depth (and Jauron did well with depth in buffalo, in guys like Chris Kelsay and Aaron Schoebel) and especially if we bring back Robaire. but Schaefering is a strong player and could be DE on obvious running downs, and DT for passing downs.




look to our defense to be a strength, and a Dick Jauron specialty is getting short fields for his offense...Jauron defenses may give up yards but they get turnovers. Opportunism. Our defense will help our offense this year and be a strength

Our defense has the potential to be good, but I'm afraid they'll get worn down quite often if our offense can't put together drives.

I am much more confident with the D than the O. Both have new systems, but I think the D will be up to speed first.

Relatively speaking I agree with you.

Our defense will be bad and our offense will be terrible.

I agree..

I don't know actually thought what it would take for me to feel confident about our offense.. I would like to say WRs, but even when we had #17 and KII, I still wasn't confident. so I guess it's all in the hands of the QB...

I'm hoping after Game 1, I'll be saying "I don't know what those early reports about Colt were about b/c he was FLAWLESS today"

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I would like to say WRs, but even when we had #17 and KII, I still wasn't confident. so I guess it's all in the hands of the QB...

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We had Joe J. and another decent tight end in that mix, too.

I gotta agree with you on this. And someone feel free to disagree but this is the way I see it.

While both sides of the ball are changing scheme ... the west coast system is based on precision and accuracy (aka timing) with all aspects of the offense: QB, and skill positions. It's about a perfection of timing and can be somewhat complex, though that might differ with how it's run scheme wise.

However, while our offense is going from a "simple" grind it out and try to throw (if ever) scarcely to a much more complex and quick scheme ... our defense is easier. It will have blitzes and coverages and calls and all ... but going from a 3-4 of ryan's to jauron's 4-3 should be an easier defense in my honest opinion. Yes it will have it's own specific terminology and jargon, and we will see some complex schemes or coverages ... but it should be a way easier defense to learn - it's based on speed and not deception.

All that points to the defense being ready to go far before the offense ...

where to begin?
1st, the title of the thread, defense as a strength.

In the philosophical discussion, of defense as a strength vs offense, or a whole team unity, I want to say that for every great defensive dominated championship team I can recall,
85 Bears, 00 Ravens, 86 giants, and others, for every one of those, there is a great offense on that team that is just overlooked.

So in the debate, I say a team is only as good as it's offense.

2nd To the post I read,
That you think the defense will be a strength and you have reasons, is the reason they play the games. To see if your right or wrong.

I'll say that no matter how well this defense, and the team as a whole is put together on paper, that there is a difference between them and Most of the other 31 teams in the NFL.

Most of them have had more games as a team together as a whole, while the Browns seem more like one of those olympic basketball teams that are put together in a short time.
To an extent, that part doesn't apply, because to an extent, part of the Browns have a year or two of experience playing together and have had time to work together to build the nuances that make a team Gel.
For instance, McCoy and even Wallace have part of last year playing with Cribbs, Massaquoi, Robiskie, Watson, Moore, Hillis, and Half (or so) of the O-line is the same as last year, and on defense, well some of them played together at least last year.
Mike Adams, Haden and Ward. But Haden and Ward had Elam and Wright to compliment them last year, so with them gone Haden and Ward might fall off some, ( a sophmore slump) and they'll need time to undestand how to work best with folks like the new players to join the team in the dbs.

Fujita Gocong, and Jackson, Have they all 3 been on the field at the same time before this year , I don't know, because Jackson and Fujita have had alternating missed time because injuries and Gocong has only been on the team , actually I don't remeber how long he's been on the team , THE POINT IS
The point is they don't have the time together that even Ben Taylor, Andra Davis, and Kevin Bentley did late in their rookie year, and EVEN IF those 3 were less apt at the positions and looked unproductive for other reasons, it doesn't change the fact that
The 3 lb's on the Browns are going to be introducing themselves to each other on the field for the first time a a unit this year.

To my last point, ( 3 lbs new), to that, someone might prove me wrong and say "look they actually played more together before" But it won't change the point I'm trying to make which is "even if they have" I'm pretty sure they don't have the time together that even the other 3 teams in our division do in their fron't 7's and LB's more specifically.

Ravens, Steelers, even Bengals, I'm pretty confident have had their lbs together for 2, 3, 4 or more years side by side good or bad, time to develop as team.

3rd. Robaire Smith.

Last week I didn't see him on the Roster, So being this time of year, I don't know how you can count on him, either the team doesn't want him or something, ( which is a shame becaus I think the team needs him if he is even available to give you limited snaps and behind Rubin. )
Team needs him because he can stop the run,
I MEAN THEY DIDN'T KEEP ROTH? WHAT ARE THEY THINKING , I'm thinking this team , AnyBody who made a KEY ! ! ! stop at a Crucial time in the game on a short yardage running play, at any time in the last 4 years, or with Roth anyone who Shot through a gap to tackle a RB for a loss in the last 4 years is
Someone not worth bringing back to the team. ( bad idea imo)

I just see teams running for 500 yards vs the Browns because they don't have anybody who has proven they can stop the run in the front 4. ( Rubin excluded).

4th general response to your post.

This Pre-season, On Paper, Enthusiasm, Tell me how it is different from ANY!!!!! other year this team has put out there since 1999?
Well I'll tell you one, There was Couch's 4th year where the QB had more that could be expected from him than you can Honestly expect from Colt.
There was another year when Jeff Garcia offered more experience and you could expect more than you can this year from Colt.
( But that's why they play the games right.)

What I don't expect from this year, is any excuse for the front 7 to give up large amounts of yardage to RB's, If this Coach, if this Team is going to go with folks like Sheard Taylor and Mitchell (Jayme, not Carlton) over folks like Roth , Robaire Smith, and Rogers, or even Ethan Kelly , Shaun Smith, or Ted Washington ( a stretch, he'd be 40 or so ) but the point is

IN baseball a manager lives and dies by his releif pitcher, but in Football a Caoch lives and dies by decisions like these.
( And I know, Shurmur wasn't around to cut Shaun Smith or Ethan kelly, but he did preside over some of the changes.

And to finish the first half of the first sentence of point #4 , How is this year different from Any other year since 99 and every year
Almost every year, since 99, by about the point this team reaches halftime of game #2, ( or 15 actual minutes into the first reg-season game ) People will be looking at the Team

Looking at the team and saying the Same Thing

Why do the Browns always ( insert adjective )
Why are they bad every year.

Not This year TL, NO! This year they have the OL coming back, they have Hillis, and McCoy is the Real deal, Cribbs' foot is healed, he'll be back to running back kicks for 6 points or almost, 10+ times again,
Not this year, this year they're going to be PREPARED for what it takes to win and they'll be ready in the FIRST games of the season.

This year it is not going to take 4 or so games to get used to the rigors of games that count and pull it all together for a performance that holds on long enough to get a win in the National Football league.

It's why they play the games right! It's why we watch,

It's why we HAVE to watch even if we're often going to be saying , Oh No, how did that happen, after the games done.

I just hope this team takes all the chances to Win and doesn't try to make it close in the last few minutes, but plays to make the opponent want to forfeit, give up, throw in the towell, by the time the last few minutes of game clock arrive.

I also think we have stronger personnel on D. There are about 5 guys that would start on at least half of the other teams. Ward, Haden, Ruben, Jackson, and hopefully Taylor. Some middle of the pack guys few would fight for but might be OK, Fujita, Brown, Adams, Sheard, Mitchell. That leaves Gocong, Young, Skrine, Patterson, Maiava, and some other spellers. Not too bad.

On O we only have LT, LG, C, TE, RB. All the others are ???

Good post.....not to mention defense is a large part attitude.


Attitude and will takes a D further then it does a O.


If we are determined to be a hard hitting, gang tackling team, we will.

there is a difference bw winning games & making the playoffs vs. having confidence in your offense.. i think the Browns can win atleast 7 games this year based on the schedule, but still not confident about the offense.

even when the Browns pulled off 9 wins in 07'.. i still wasn't confident in our offense.. that game DA had against the Bengals still pisses me off.

He should have just been lousy the first 9 games and then you wouldn't have gotten your hopes up.
He shoulda learned from Frye.

Fact is they won about 5 games they had to win that year just to stay in the playoff mix, and they were up until then ( 3 game road trip started there and people can overlook what that means but I acknowledge it )

and they won those 5 games largely because
SOLEY because of what Anderson was able to do that year.
game 1, he got scores against pitt,after Frye destroyed that game

Anderson because he was a gunslinger on offense, was able to bring the team to where they wouldn't have alot of punts, Almost No punts, Every game they were going to score 6 or 7 times on Offense, and That was because of Anderson.

I remember that day, and a Bengal fan I ran into that day convinced me that the Bengals were unusually motivated for that game.

I guess they took the Loss in week 2 where they scored 34 points and had 450+ yards on offense Much worse than the Browns took the WIN in week 2 where they scored a little be more points and had more yards on offense.

See the Browns Weren't supposed to Compete vs the Bengals that year, in week #2 after a horrible opening loss to pitts at home and Benching the QB , Frye , because everything was so horrible,

But Because of Anderson they Did comete!

And You hate him for that week #9 or 10 loss to a motivated Bengal team at the start of a 3 game road trip, because he lost that 2nd game.

You hate him for That loss because you can't hate him for the other games , games 3-8 or 9 or whatever
Because he didn't lose those ! He won those! He threw 29 touchdowns !

Good Grief , Best Quarterback year we've seen since 99 and the Majority of Browns Fans Hate the guy!

Why are you discussing a game (in this thread) from four years ago when Derek Freaking Anderson was on the team?

Keeping our D on the field for less than 3 quarters is crucial. O has to banish the 3 and out routine and move sticks. We need TDs more often. More pressure on the ground will help us get more turnovers and game changing situations in our favor. But we gotta cash in. I am hoping we are in fact more flexible, less predictable, and just unbearably productive on offense.

This defense should be a middle of the pack defense this year. Injuries will play a huge part. We lack depth almost everywhere. Lose a LB or a DL and we're in serious trouble.

The DL might be a strength. If it is, the defense will be decent. If it's not, then the defense will struggle mightily. LB scares the hell out of me except for Fujita ...... and even he's battled injuries.

We have 2 sophmores in the secondary ... who will hopefully avoid the sophmore slump. They are , like the rest of the defense, unlearning last year and learning this year's defense now. There's talent ... and there are questionn marks back there.

Are you serious about Roth? Iknow I don't post much, but seriously you guys need to quit spouting off about stuff when it's not true. Roth did not want to play in a 4-3. Its been said on this board and how many different articles.

They've got an entire corral of dead horses that they've beaten to a bludgeon to such a degree that you can't tell their dead horses from ground chuck.

Yea I know. It just annoys me to no end when people spout stuff off constantly like they know everything, when its been repeatedly shown what they are stating isn't true. I mean its been said how many freaking time that he did not want to play in a 4-3.

I more posted this, in that our defense can be and most likely will be a unit that will make like easier on the offense. I say that because Dick Jauron coached defenses create turnovers and give offenses short fields, or pts in the bag.


Our offense could struggle, we are built for the running game, and we are learning a new style that hasnt been played here. That being said we have a number of players who played in similar systems on offense, but defensively we have a system that is more geared towards the players we have.


To your post...you mention that our defense could struggle versus the run because 3 of the 4 guys that are in the plans to start are guys who are unproven versus the run. The guys that we had here before, were not very good against the run either. We have 4 DLers that have played where they will be and have had success...Sheard and Taylor had enough success where they were to be drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds. Mitchell played backup to 2 of the best DEs in the NFL. Ahtyba Rubin was amongst the best run stoppers on our team last year, and will benefit from having another DT next to him as opposed to being the stalwart in the middle he needed to be last year.

Our LBs have experience in this system as well. Fujita is a guy who knows how to cover and knows how to play quick and is a very quick reaction guy. DQ is a speedster who will benefit in the middle because he will be able to use his speed and Gocong will be used id imagine as primarily a run stopping linebacker on the strong side of the offense which will make mitchells job easier and he plays strong. Id imagine Maiava being his passing down replacement because of his quickness.

Our defense went from old to young very quickly, and Jauron defenses, if quick, create a TON of havoc...is it a completed process? of course not but our FO has done a remarkable job of compiling 4-3 talent out of a non 4-3 defense, and our Defense looks as though it could be a strength for our offense because it will give us short fields a lot.

Crennel and Mangini for all their abilities, never gave us defenses that could provide our offenses with short fields, but Jauron will...He likes to use his front 4 to create pressure, and use the back 7 to fill in gaps and make things difficult on the QB and thats what we'll do very well...We have enough speed in the back of the D that should make things very exciting. I see us giving up some big plays, especially early...but we'll get them back by making big plays...

D as a strength...not a strength in terms of, you cant move the ball on us (like the teams you mentioned), but a strength as in, if you slip up, were going to have the ball in field goal range.

DL: we are counting on two rookies and a player that has never started before.

LB: we are counting on one vet that has been off the field more than on the past two years, an aging vet and a slow LB not suited to th 4-3. There is no proven back-up behind them.

CB: one of the starters is getting old and slow and if one player goes down there will be no proven back-up.

S: two back-ups are competing for the starting job and there is no proven back-up at SS.

this defense has the potential to yield 30 points a game.

^ This

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Anyway,, the only argument I have on this is that I think Gocong will be fine in the 4-3. I think I'm pretty much alone on that however.

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NO you're not...Heckert and Jauron think so too...At least for now...

LB will most definitely be addressed next off season...No doubt about it...

Folks, this is more of a rebuilding year than we had under Crennel and Mangini in their 1st seasons....Holmgren alludes to this in some of his remarks in articles....he took over not only a below AVG NFL team...but Mangini left over 1 of the older teams in the league with little athleticism and upside left...

THIS IS A REBUILD....everything they DID and DIDN'T do points that way:

1. Many rooks will play, traded a top 10 picks for more (future) picks

2. No old vets-FA signed...not even interested. Instead they want to sign BUILDING blocks for the future

3. System and coaching change in a shortened Offseason

H&H know they won't win the SB this year no matter the roster....there are too many positions and players where they just can't be sure enough: McCoy, the WRs, Dqwell coming back, completely new DL, FS experiment with Young

I think in their minds it's a tryout season and they're giving guys like Dqwell, Maiava, Mitchell, Young, Lauvao and a boatload of rooks ample opportunities to show if they're NFL material or not

If H&H wanted to win 8+ games, they would have filled more depth with experience instead of just projection...this is a conscious rebuild...no more old have beens (or never beens like under Mangini)...to switch system, coaching, age and speed you need at least 1 rebuilding season...I know everybody hates to hear this: but we're rebuilding...unlike the Mangini 1 though, it's a true rebuild and 1 I am willing to back for now....there's a plan, I like the plan and I trust Heckert

For once, we agree..

Agreed. This season could be a brutal one (particularly early on). Hopefully, we'll get a little lucky and stay reasonably healthy so we'll be able to let these kids grow into their roles. I expect things to look plenty ragged early and improve as the season go on. We'll see...

As it has been since '99, "PATIENCE" is going to have to be our watch word for the year.

allow me to add to that......

If H & H had wanted to go 8-8 or 9-7 AND STILL miss the playoffs they could have gotten Ray Edwards, TO etc.

Throwing the young guys out there and seeing what we have may sound to some like tanking the season,

But what choice is there?

Choice 1: Long term mediocrity or even suckage by going with older mediocre vets at the end of their careers and waiting for young guys to develop that never really get a chance anyway? This has been how successful again?


Choice 2: a really bad season or two followed by the possibility that things just might get better b/c all the young players are getting good or at least average at the same time.

how are we going to know if players like J. Mitchell, U. Young, Greco, Octavian, T. Brown are NFL quality?

Yep, a try-out season or two.

The good: high draft picks and the knowledge of who and who isn't NFL quality

The bad: we will suffer once again

The ugly: it still might not work

But the course H & H have taken has led to some teams turning around within a few years.

If we ever are going to have a chance to catch Pitt and Balto we need to hit on five or six of our draft picks every year for the next two years or so AND find a hidden young UFA gem and / or UDFA or two.

If all these players develop at once maybe, just maybe, we will have a decent roster with some talent top to bottom when combined with core holdovers like Mack, Thomas, Hillis, Rubin, Haden, Ward and hopefully Colt.

Imagine an OL like this in 2012:

LT: Thomas
LG: Lauvao
C: Mack
RG: Greco
RT: Braxton/ Pinkston

/ end rant/

let me add that I believe that we are in much better shape on offense and agree that at first that may not be evident.

Here's why we are better on offense:

1. The WCO seems suited to Colt and our back-ups
2. The Shurmer version of the WCO is TE friendly and TE appears to be a strength of the team
3. We are in much better shape on the OL than most want to believe Why we are OK here is another thread.
4. We have at least two reliable backs
5. our WRs have a lot of question marks, but if only 3 emerge from the crowd we have a good chance to get in the end zone consistently.
6. H & H seem to know our replacement punter. Why would they choose him if he was a total stiff? I heard he was Dawson's holder in the offseason.
7. We still have Dawson and Ponty and some other decent special teamers


Normally I agree with King Steve's outlooks but this time I'm going to have to take the opposite opinion.

IMO our defense has added several younger, faster guys and we will be playing a faster defense, that they all are basically familiar with.

Intstead of older, slower guys playing a more complex defense requiring more thought that they were all still learning.

Rubin and Taylor could be the best pair of tackles since Johnson and Sherk.
Add last year's best pass rusher to that.

Ward and Haden have another year of experience, Brown is healthy and we have a couple of hopefully decent nickle backs.

DQ is supposed to be a good fit for the 4-3, and also Maiava.

Our offense will hopefully be able to keep our D off the field a little better than last year.

I'm not sure what all the high hopes for Maiava are based on. He played a 3-4 in college and every year he's been in the pros. He's never really stood out as productive, even in preseason. He was the least-accomplished of USC's linebackers when they were all there. If he's anything more than a halfway-decent backup, I'll be surprised.