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I'm assuming you mean 2010, right?
2009 brought us Robiskie, Mass and the legend of David Vekune.
Yes, and thanks for picking up my fumble.
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Alex Mack
Brian Robiskie
Mohamed Massaquoi
David Veikune
Kaluka Maiava
Don Carey
Coye Francies
James Davis
Over/Under set at 1.5 for players on Browns 2012 roster.
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i'll take the over on that one.
I think either Robiskie or MoMass will at least prove enough to be a backup WR on next year's squad (or hopefully a starter because that means they had a good year this year). maiava might prove enough to be kept on as a backup LB.
Edit: obviously, Mack is money in the bank as the first one.
Last edited by no_logo_required; 08/24/11 04:49 PM.
#gmstrong
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I think Lauvao has a bright future at RG for us.
I agree. He was a good draft pick, and the fact he's starting in year two, injured last year or not, is a huge bonus. The fact that we finally have stability along the front is something we've all wanted since the team came back. Now it's time to draft a prospective RT.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Alex Mack
Brian Robiskie
Mohamed Massaquoi
David Veikune
Kaluka Maiava
Don Carey
Coye Francies
James Davis
Over/Under set at 1.5 for players on Browns 2012 roster.
Mack is the slam dunk, Maiava seems to be at least a special teamer. Hopefully one of Robiske/Massaquoi will do something this year that warrants a roster spot next year.
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Alex Mack
Brian Robiskie
Mohamed Massaquoi
David Veikune
Kaluka Maiava
Don Carey
Coye Francies
James Davis
Over/Under set at 1.5 for players on Browns 2012 roster.
Yes, Mack is money so it really becomes a question if ANYONE else from that draft will be with the Browns at start of 2012 season? I just can't see them getting rid of BOTH MoMass and Robo before next year. I think a better question might be the odds of over/under 2.5.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Alex Mack
Brian Robiskie
Mohamed Massaquoi
David Veikune
Kaluka Maiava
Don Carey
Coye Francies
James Davis
Over/Under set at 1.5 for players on Browns 2012 roster.
I have a feeling James Davis is going to stick. He has the right kind of attitude to succeed in the NFL. No matter the setback, he'll keep fighting and never qui.....awww damn.
Ya, 2.5 is a better over/under number. I'll still take the over. Mack + Robo/MoMass.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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I'll take the over, too.
Mack
Robo
MoMass
Maiava
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Alex Mack
Brian Robiskie
Mohamed Massaquoi
David Veikune
Kaluka Maiava
Don Carey
Coye Francies
James Davis
Over/Under set at 1.5 for players on Browns 2012 roster.
I would say 3.5.
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the legend of David Vekune.
But Vekune is a high motor guy. 
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If we had brought Veikune in and said "Here play this position" then I think he would have atleast had a shot to make it but we didnt. One day he is a DE, next day he is LOLB, next day he is at ROLB, hold on we still have the 2 interior linebacker positions to fill come on Veikune you can play them. This is one kid that I can say was basically ruined before he ever had a chance. hell I even saw the kid take reps at NT.
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I remember Veikune saying on draft day how shocked he and his family were about being drafted on the first day after being told by his agent that he would be taken late on the second day. Mangini really outsmarted himself on that one.
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You mean Kokinis right?  Seriously have to be thankful with a real talent evaluator with a plan. It might take some time to clean up the mess and refill the cupboards but I believe we are off to a good start. Next year will be drafting a couple LB's I'm guessing. It is about the only spot we haven't adressed..and WR. I like Maiva personally. He's not great but serviceable and a hustle guy. He gives everything on every play and that is all you can ask. The jury is still out on him and could possibly develop into an even better player than his draft position. He also could just plane out and that 4th round spot is still a hit if you ask me. If he contributes on special teams and gets some reps in games and sticks around for some time, I believe his spot would be justified.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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It is about the only spot we haven't adressed..and WR.
I would consider taking Little in the early second round as "addressing" WR.
yebat' Putin
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It is about the only spot we haven't adressed..and WR.
I would consider taking Little in the early second round as "addressing" WR.
My bad..I agree.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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It's not about how many guys "still are" on the roster...it's about the quality...4 Top60 picks and after only 2 seasons (heck that was clear after their rookie season too) all that is left is 1 above AVG NFL starter...that's how you set back a franchise
I remember how upset I was on draft day...it got worse with every pick
After the trade downs I screamed to pick Oher for RT...I couldn't believe he fell that far...we took Mack and to make things worse Ozzie got Oher...then I screamed to TRADE UP for Barwin (we had nada at OLB, Roth came over during the season) or Nicks as he was the last top tier WR left, we didn't...Nicks was gone, ok...we're on the clock again: I screamed to draft Barwin who was my 2nd ranked player (Barwin had 4.5sacks as a rookie with little snaps...and in a misfit 4-3 that was, then a career threatening injury last year...he's now the starting SOLB in HOU's new 3-4, can't wait to see him)....we took Robo...my mood went south and I knew Mangini was an idiot with no evaluation skills after this pick....2 more picks and I screamed for a falling CB S.Smith, RB McCoy, RT Loadholt, G/C Levitre...in the 4th I wanted Mike Thomas or Collie..arrgh!
#gmstrong
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It's not about how many guys "still are" on the roster...it's about the quality...4 Top60 picks and after only 2 seasons (heck that was clear after their rookie season too) all that is left is 1 above AVG NFL starter...that's how you set back a franchise
I remember how upset I was on draft day...it got worse with every pick
After the trade downs I screamed to pick Oher for RT...I couldn't believe he fell that far...we took Mack and to make things worse Ozzie got Oher...then I screamed to TRADE UP for Barwin (we had nada at OLB, Roth came over during the season) or Nicks as he was the last top tier WR left, we didn't...Nicks was gone, ok...we're on the clock again: I screamed to draft Barwin who was my 2nd ranked player (Barwin had 4.5sacks as a rookie with little snaps...and in a misfit 4-3 that was, then a career threatening injury last year...he's now the starting SOLB in HOU's new 3-4, can't wait to see him)....we took Robo...my mood went south and I knew Mangini was an idiot with no evaluation skills after this pick....2 more picks and I screamed for a falling CB S.Smith, RB McCoy, RT Loadholt, G/C Levitre...in the 4th I wanted Mike Thomas or Collie..arrgh!
Hindsight is always 20/20
When you are done patting yourself on the back,, you need to back up on the Mack Pick,, he's a damn fine pick.. the book is still out on Robo and MoMass...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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It's not hindsight if it's a recount of your feelings at the time. Django was far from the only person who thought this as it was happening. After we traded down I was hoping that somehow Matthews or Oher would fall to 17, though I thought only maybe Oher would. We kept trading down and having a shot at either and passing, then when we took the Mack I was furious... especially with Fraley playing fine the year before and very well the year before that. As we were coming down to the later picks, everyone on here was chanting for L. McCoy, Loadholt, or a few others (mine was Kreuger) as options. You saw what we ended up with. We all witnessed it happening, we all cringed, the team would have been better off if they picked the players we as only fans thought were better, and now we're in the position we're in. Your answer is always "hindsight is 20/20  ...,,,, then,,, why don't you have a job in the nfl ... I trust the Browns' brass knows more about this than you ..." but the fact of the matter is that year after year they would have been better off with the popular decision on the board.
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yep, that was not a pretty draft. A center is never a sexy pick. McCoy and Loadholt were options that would have made more sense. But Loadholt really isn't all that, so maybe no big deal there. He really struggles against speed.
Year three is when the reciever is supposed to have it all figured out, so here's hoping this draft is salvaged with some production from Robo and MoMass.
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Hindsight is always 20/20
When you are done patting yourself on the back,, you need to back up on the Mack
Pick,, he's a damn fine pick.. the book is still out on Robo and MoMass...
1. It's not hindsight...it's who I wanted at the time..I even drafted some of them in my mock
2. Mack WAS a bad pick...he's a good payer, but he was a bad pick...I know it's hard for the homer to understand...I expanded on that multiple times..the Mack pick was bad VALUE and is the direct reason we had to scramble for 2nd tier or project prospects later in the draft...put it differently: Mack was a reach because it caused us to reach at premium positions, when the best were gone there (pass rushers, #1 WR)...there's a reason a real GM (Heckert) drafts interior OL in the value round for this position, rounds 3-5, and drafts impact positions early (DL, DB)...remember: Mack was the highest drafted C EVER...there's a reason even guys like Mangold go late 1st at best....the reason is VALUE...both DRAFT value and NFL position-comparison value...
From the moment he was drafted I said he was a fine player but bad pick..I said so right after the draft...and now pretty much everything turned out the way I prognosticated: he is all that is left from this draft, which was a HUGE draft for us with so many high picks....we botched it and the Mack pick to start was part of it
#gmstrong
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2. Mack WAS a bad pick..
Completely disagree.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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2. Mack WAS a bad pick..
Completely disagree.
Ok, if we passed on Mack, but felt we still had to pickup a OC to start (because Mangini wanted a huge bruising OL and Fraley didn't fit the bill):
Alex Mack - we picked him at 21. there were heavy rumors that KC, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh would also select him. He would have been gone by our next pick.
Eric Wood - Buffalo picked him at 28. He likely would have been gone by our next pick as well. He is still starting at OC for the Bills despite breaking his leg his rookie year.
The next OC taken? Jonathan Luigs in round6. He played 8 games for the Bengals in 2009 and is no longer in the NFL.
AQ Shipley a 7th round draft pick to the Steelers. He made a PS that year and is expected to be cut from the Eagles this preseason (has not made it into a game yet).
Blake Schlueter was drafted by the Broncos in the 7th. He is no longer in the NFL after never making it into a game.
There were 2 topend guys, and then NOTHING.
It is possible to get good OC talent in some drafts later. However, in 2009, it was not. I understand your premise about getting 'premium position' players high in the draft. I really do. However, Mack is a huge reason that we could have a top5 OL in the NFL this year. Having 2 guys on the OL who are top3 in the NFL at their position makes everyone else's job easier.
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I consider a Center a premium position. I'm also huge into the lines. We could draft in the first round nothing but O and D lineman from now til the end of the time and I would be ok with that.
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Ok, if we passed on Mack, but felt we still had to pickup a OC to start (because Mangini wanted a huge bruising OL and Fraley didn't fit the bill):
Alex Mack - we picked him at 21. there were heavy rumors that KC, Buffalo, and Pittsburgh would also select him. He would have been gone by our next pick.
Eric Wood - Buffalo picked him at 28. He likely would have been gone by our next pick as well. He is still starting at OC for the Bills despite breaking his leg his rookie year.
The next OC taken? Jonathan Luigs in round6. He played 8 games for the Bengals in 2009 and is no longer in the NFL.
There were 2 topend guys, and then NOTHING.
Um, wrong, double wrong ...Caldwell was picked in the 3rd by HOU...he's their starting C...1 of the best Offenses around btw...Oher or Nicks or Matthews + Caldwell with 1 of the other 3 picks looks MUCH better than Mack + crap...you'd get 2 top 3-5 guys at their position in the draft...the Mangini way was the best C and then 2nd tier 6th to 10th best WR and pass rusher...thank God for Heckert, he gets it...it's basic draft value 101...go premium early, get value in mid rounds on TE, RB, interior OL, depth DB
Also, Unger is a versatile OL that can play anywhere along the OL...he was best projected to C/G...and I think to remember that he's their starting C right now...he was also available with 1 of the other picks
#gmstrong
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I agree with you that we should have taken on of the other guys (although I don't know about Oher as he would only ever be a right tackle). But I can't complain about the pick now with the way Mack has played. It's him and Mangold competing for the spot as the top center in the league.
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Someone correct me here, but wasn't Oher taken to be the Starting LT... But then couldnt cut it?
#GMSTRONG
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Someone correct me here, but wasn't Oher taken to be the Starting LT... But then couldnt cut it?
You are correct. The Ravens just signed Bryant McKinnie to play LT and moved Oher back to RT.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
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I consider a Center a premium position. I'm also huge into the lines. We could draft in the first round nothing but O and D lineman from now til the end of the time and I would be ok with that.
Well, that's wrong and simply not reality..askany GM...there's a reason SURE FIRE C-picks like Mack and Mangold fall to the late 1st-2nd round area...and it's not because 32 FOs are stupid...they know that the drop off from best starting C to AVG ones and even the worst isn't nearly as huge as say best WR to worst or best pass rusher to worst or best pass protector to worst...position scarcity..it's easier to find a decent C in the mid rounds or even FA (how many top C are available every offseason at C...Birk, J.Brown, Bentley etc)...and how many great pass rushers or LTs? See...that's why C isn't a premium position..there are enough decent ones around...the drop off isn't as significant, since every team just needs to start only 1 and not 2 like at most other positions...thus the VALUE isn't as high
Mangini drafted like he coached: "not to lose" style...and we lost, because he thought he was smart by going the "safe" way with Mack in the 1st and then threw 2 darts at carbon copy WR prospects and prayed that eventually 1 would emerge...then he realized he has no OLB and need-overdrafted a project DE/OLB from Hawaii...all that with no WR and OLB on the roster and a servicable Fraley at C, who was still the better OL of the 2 in Mack's rookie season (remember the "line calls" farce? I do)....yeah, makes perfect sense...this draft set us back for years and the Mack-pick started the whole debacle
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Someone correct me here, but wasn't Oher taken to be the Starting LT... But then couldnt cut it?
You are correct. The Ravens just signed Bryant McKinnie to play LT and moved Oher back to RT.
OK then,, who in thier right mind would pay a guy like Oher that kinda money to play RT..
Django,, you are wrong about this., We got a MUCH better player in Mack....
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I think that Mack is a really, really good player. He is a Pro Bowl caliber Center.
There were other ways we could have gone with the 1st pick in that draft. Mangini chose to go with a Center. I can't argue with the choice. There were a lot of other really good players we could have picked, but we got a guy who will be outstanding for the next decade or so.
Given our drafts prior to that, getting a guy who will be a Pro Bowl caliber player for a decade or so sounds pretty damn good.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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OK then,, who in thier right mind would pay a guy like Oher that kinda money to play RT..
Django,, you are wrong about this., We got a MUCH better player in Mack....
1. Look around the league how much starting RTs make, esp. the FA guys...a guy picked at 21 doesn't get as much
2. I'd much rather have Caldwell at C and Oher at RT than Mack at C and Tony "2 games a year" Pashos or a StClair turnstile bum at RT...a good OT is worth much more than an AllPro C..you don't have to believe me but actions speak louder than words and that's the way 32 FOs operate every year, every draft and FA...and it makes absolutely sense...you can't compare 2 players from 2 different positions in a vacuum...you gotta consider their value and position scarcity for a certain team and then to the entire league
That's why I argue that Mack was a bad pick (missed value) despite being a very good player...I utilized the same rationale with this year's Marecic pick...good player (he will come around, you'll see and love him) but bad value with what was left on the board....
Another thing, teams in a rebuild or who lack a ton of talent should ALWAYS go for value in the draft...prennial PO teams have the luxury to overdraft for a certain need and disregard value since they only lack certain pieces...we clearly qualify for the former and that's another small reason it was a bad choice (better word than "pick" I guess..the "choice" was bad)
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I have no worries admitting when I am wrong. Not the case with Caldwell though. I remember some thinking he 'might' be able to switch to C, but he was listed as OG. He started 3 games his rookie year, 7 games his 2nd year and is currently injured while fighting for the RG spot this year. Caldwell was listed as OG for the draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/tracker#dt...sition-input:olAnd he is listed as backup RG for the Texans now: http://www.houstontexans.com/team/depth-chart.htmland on their team roster: http://www.houstontexans.com/team/roster.html------------------ Unger, on the other hand, I admit I forgot about him. I thought there were 3 main guys at the top, but didn't see his name when scrolling through as he wasn't listed as C or OG. Unger was listed as OT for the draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/tracker#dt...sition-input:olHe is not anywhere near Mack in terms of ability though. He couldn't handle OC in training camp, so they moved him to guard. He started there until the end of the season when they had an injury and moved him to OC. He was supposed to play OC last year but missed the year with a toe injury.
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Um, wrong, double wrong ...Caldwell was picked in the 3rd by HOU...he's their starting C...1 of the best Offenses around btw...
Actually Caldwell started 7 games last year (the only 7 he has started in his career), all at guard. And he is currently listed on the depth chart as a back-up guard... not a starting center... I can't find any evidence that he has ever played center for the Texans, let alone established himself as the starter..... nice try though. 
The Texans starting center is Chris Myers, who they got for a 5th or 6th round pick from the Broncos in 2008, he has started every game at center.
Meanwhile in a USA Today poll Alex Mack is 8th on the list of best centers (17th on the list of best interior linemen) in the NFL and almost everybody that he is behind is an established veteran and/or on a better team.
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Even if there was no decent OC spec left, which wasn't completely the case...who do you consider better? Fraley at C or StClair at RT? Easy one right?
or what combination? Mack+StClair > Fraley+Oher? For me it's clearly Fraley+Oher > Mack+StClair...and it's not even close...also remember that Mack struggled heavily thorugh the 1st half of his rookie season...he played pretty poorly...so you have to conceed that too to guys like Unger and Caldwell (probably their HC's just weren't as stubborn as Mangini to force his pick over a clearly better vet...I remember that it made much more sense to start Mack off at G alongside Fraley at C, the whole OL played better with Fraley in there making the calls...everybody saw that)
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You're right about Caldwell....was sure he was their C but he played RG...he was Bama's C his entire career and I remember him being a C prospect in that draft. FWIW, in NFL.com's draft history he is listed as C...guess he is a C/G, like many interior OL and HOU probably had a better C than G around..I remember him being a much better run blocker than pass protector, so maybe he just fit better at G in the NFL http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2009&round=round1#round1We still had like 10 more pressing needs on that 2009 offseason roster than C imho
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
It's ok..you don't get value, esp in a draft...I make ton of sense in my posts you opted to ignore it and make it about me (as if that's something new) instead of disputing my arguments...pick #21 in the 2009 draft isn't just pick #21 in the 2009 draft, you have to consider the context...you either don't care for or don't get this context (and I guess you like Mack+StClair over Fraley+Oher?) Also, I don't "degrade" the player..he is who I thought he was ...I just think the "choice" was bad, I explained why it's ok...we "disagree"...let's move on We can all agree that Mack's a good player...we had 2 consecutive above AVG to good drafts under Heckert and even I, the Negative Nancy on here, have little to criticize since Heckert's making the choices...let's win
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,556 |
Just my opinion but I think it is foolish to spend a first round pick on a center or guard. With that said, Mack is a a good center and if things continue with Pinkston and Lauvao the way the early signs ing we are going to have monster interior.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Oher is a terrific RT and that is what I wanted him considered for after we traded down. We had a good center in Fraley (remember how mad everyone was when he was let go?) and we had no RT. It's still questionable if we have a RT.
I disagree that Fraley was a 'good' OC. He was 'good enough' as a stop-gap and a great guy and hard-worker from all accounts. But, he wasn't the big powerful and quick OL that we were building. He did not fit.
He was not valued after he left here by any team and couldn't win an OG spot with the Rams last year (he wasn't beating Jason Brown for the OC spot and he knew that going in).
I agree that we needed a RT and we still need a RT (Pashos is now the stop-gap guy and an injury risk one at that). But, we also could have had Loadholt or a number of other guys at RT w/ later picks as well. Oher is a good RT, but I think Mack is a better OC than Oher is a RT. I also think that OC is an extremely important position on the OL.
all in all though, I'm glad that we are now arguing about 1st round picks that we hit on but some feel we could have hit on better. much nicer than the past arguments we have had about our 1st round busts.
#gmstrong
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