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Damn you, Colt, you're a sucky defensive coordinator!
FIFY. 
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on 1: he had a short field against Cincy down by 3, he threw to Mack and looked clueless...yeah, that's not what I think a franchise QB looks like.
That single play caused more concern for me than anything else with Colt. I know he is virtually a rookie but the thought process there is alarming. We need 10 yards or the game is over so instead of taking a shot down field, I will throw it to the center.
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Wasn't he getting sacked/hit as that happened?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Yes.
However, he should still know that throwing to an ineligible receiver is a No-No.
Launch it to the sidelines, but not to a lineman.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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That's what happens sometimes when your running back looKslike an olineman.
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Yeah, I get that. Just launch it up there. It was 4th down anyway, so what's the worst that could happen?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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on 1: he had a short field against Cincy down by 3, he threw to Mack and looked clueless...yeah, that's not what I think a franchise QB looks like...I already know your next move...the Jets game...it's pretty much everything the McCoy fanboys remember...
Not sure if I'm a "McCoy fanboy" or not... whatever that means.. I am a fan of his though.
I will not retort by going to the Jets game, I will say that in Tampa Bays comeback they were still down by 10 in the middle of the 3rd quarter and had driven to the 12 yard line.. Freeman, with very little pressure, threw off his back foot with his momentum going backwards trying to hit a double covered Kellen Winslow in the end zone and hit the Vikings defender right in the chest... It was still first down and they were already in FG range which would have made it a one score game so there was no need to take a risk.... it was a VERY POOR DECISION in a situation where they needed to capitalize on every opportunity to get back into the game... They overcame that and won but that was not what I think a franchise QB looks like either.
My point here is not to prove that McCoy will be great or that Freeman will be terrible, my point is that for every isolated incident or isolated game you can throw out there to prove that McCoy is not good enough, I can find a similar situation of somebody that you think IS good enough... in the end, McCoy will be judged on a body of work over a longer period of time. I just hope he stays healthy and his weapons stay healthy so that we can use this season in its entirety to see what we've got.
yebat' Putin
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He also blasted Colt because against the Bengals he was "unable to put the game away".... so against the Colts with a lead, we get the ball and offense "puts the game away".. but that still isn't a good sign.
I responded to this and many other lame points brought up more than once...Colt NEVER put the game away, he had multiple short fields and RZ trips and couldn't throw for a TD....Hillis and the OL run blocking put the game away...yeah, McCoy was part of it, he didn't botch the snap and handoff, hurray
Against Cincy, up by 4p in the 3rd Qtr we had the ball 1st&10 at THEIR 33yd line...3 plays later we punted it because we went backwards thanks to our franchise QB getting himself sacked on 3rd down...in that situation, far from putting the game away, he wasn't even a competent game manager
Freeman-McCoy: I know Freeman takes risks and he was crap the 1st half, just like McCoy he's a young QB and he isn't perfect....that's not a great game by any means but our franchise QB is, as Shurmur said, just "efficient"...he tanks Qtrs WITHOUT the comeback ability late (see Cincy game)...while your QB is part of the reason you're down that late (other than a shootout) it is at least good that he has the ability to pull himself and the team out of it....with McCoy, he has to be "efficient" for 4 Qtrs to still be in the game...hew would never throw the INT, that's right and he probably never would have been down by this much (more like 1 score down) but he NEVER would have thrown his team out of a sure fire loss ...1or2 Qtrs of playing bad, and it's over with him at QB...simply put: the margin for error is almost nonexistent for Colt as he lacks the ability to make up for it in a short amount of time and plays, franchise QBs otoh have always been able to play a more risky/big play style (Favre, Roethli, Rodgers)....and from the young guys I see similar stuff and style from the likes of Freeman, Stafford, Newton, Ryan...I'd take any of these young guys over Colt plus some 10+ vets
FGs and "not to lose style Offense" don't win games...ask Mangini and his bro Sparano...and Colt's "efficient" upside is being a "not to lose" game manager...that's not the kind of franchise QB I want, he'd be the perfect backup and I would love to have him as our #2 as a solid game manager who doesn't turn over the ball is perfect coming from the bench...but not every season, every sunday
I just don't see any upside whatsoever to his game...he will NEVER be a pocket QB, his passes from the pocket are flat horrible (the 3rd down floater to Massa that got defelcted comes to mind), over 50% of his passes are on the run, another high % are quick passes out of the pocket but mostly while running backwards and jumping...I can count on 1 hand the plays he drops back, sets and throws...our Offense looks more like a circus show than an actual real NFL Offense, its really just a CFB Offense at this point (and before I get lambasted for saying this: Sir Toad said so too  )...and the main reason for this is the inability of our QB to be a real NFL QB
#gmstrong
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Same ole same ole.. All I read there was Blah Blah Blah.. I'm right and you are all wrong for not seeing it my way 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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There is nothing...it's a correlation-causation brainfart....I can give you a dozens of QB with similar stats that were crap...in fact if you go by % I would bet my house that a very high % of young guys with stats like that end up being backups at best or out of the league
But there is something there. There is the fact that this early in his career he can't be judged one way or the other. Like you said, most young QB's with numbers like those had crap for a career. But there were also a few who excelled once the light came on.
And at that time in most of their careers no one knew for sure which way it would go. They had their positives and their negatives. The real test will be after an entire season. Because at that point something should be standing out big-time one way or the other.
You're right, Peyton Manning won 3 games his first season. That was no indication of anything. I'm sure there were others who looked great for a minute until defenses took away their strengths and exposed their weaknesses. So their great start was no indication of anything either.
It's just too early to make a definitive determination one way or another.
Colt actually throws the ball in the immediate vicinity of our receivers. Usually somewhere near their hands. It's been so long since our fans have seen even that much of decent skills from a Browns QB that it gets mistaken to be destined for greatness.
It's all to early to tell. At the same time there is absolute nothing wrong with pointing out his strengths and weaknesses as they pertain to this moment in time.
As you've said, at least I think you've said, we're not changing QB's at this point of this season anyway so let's let it play out and evaluate as well as we can considering the limitations of actually being able to do that.
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Sure, all I say about McCoy is what I think about him going forward....it's a prognostication of what I saw from him at Texas and now as a Brown...
You can't tell either way, absolutely right....I'm just "betting" on the information I have on him that he falls into the backup/fringe, below AVG starter category and since I'm pretty good at betting I don't want to experience it the Cleveland way (the hard way) as we've done with Frye, DA, Quinn etc (yes, he IS better than those, but, like those still worse than league AVG)...by wasting more and more time on a below AVG NFL QB...take a good, long look at him this season and then finally draft/trade/sign, whatever, preferably draft your franchise QB...I'm tired of "finding out"...when you have to "find out" it means 1 thing for sure: he isn't there yet
Now, I already hear the homer: "but, but he only has 10 starts and 2 in his tailor made WCO system"...sure, and that's valid and that's why I want a full 16 game sample of him...the problem I have is he has shown no improvements in the departments he needs to make improvements to be a real NFL QB (pocket awareness and presence, stepping up, see the field, real NFL throws, not pitches etc etc...another thing no one has mentioned yet: I haven't seen him ONCE make an audible...did any of you? If not, another bad sign as he's either not allowed to or he has no confidence clue at what he's looking at yet...pick your poison, but it's another not so comforting sign)....with some other young QBs you see, like with Peyton and others back then, some signs, some real NFL throws and the obvious mistakes...but with Colt: he is what he is...his holes are huge and it looks like they aren't even working to correct them, which would mean that everyone involved knows it's not correctable anyway...they "work around" his deficiencies...that's why I say there's no upside...working around stuff is what you do with backup QBs thrown into the fire, not franchise QBs...like: trying your best with what you have, trying to be "efficient" despite obvious shortcomings that are not fixable
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Colt NEVER put the game away, he had multiple short fields and RZ trips and couldn't throw for a TD....Hillis and the OL run blocking put the game away...yeah, McCoy was part of it, he didn't botch the snap and handoff, hurray
You are blaming Colt because we were able to run for TDs so we didn't have to throw them? He threw exactly 1 pass in a goal to go situation that was incomplete... 1.
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Against Cincy, up by 4p in the 3rd Qtr we had the ball 1st&10 at THEIR 33yd line...3 plays later we punted it because we went backwards thanks to our franchise QB getting himself sacked on 3rd down...in that situation, far from putting the game away, he wasn't even a competent game manager
On first down we lost 3 yards on a run, then Moore dropped a catchable ball and Colt was sacked on 3rd and 13...
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Freeman-McCoy: I know Freeman takes risks and he was crap the 1st half, just like McCoy he's a young QB and he isn't perfect....that's not a great game by any means but our franchise QB is, as Shurmur said, just "efficient"...he tanks Qtrs WITHOUT the comeback ability late (see Cincy game)...while your QB is part of the reason you're down that late (other than a shootout) it is at least good that he has the ability to pull himself and the team out of it....with McCoy, he has to be "efficient" for 4 Qtrs to still be in the game...hew would never throw the INT, that's right and he probably never would have been down by this much (more like 1 score down) but he NEVER would have thrown his team out of a sure fire loss ...1or2 Qtrs of playing bad, and it's over with him at QB...simply put: the margin for error is almost nonexistent for Colt as he lacks the ability to make up for it in a short amount of time and plays, franchise QBs otoh have always been able to play a more risky/big play style (Favre, Roethli, Rodgers)....and from the young guys I see similar stuff and style from the likes of Freeman, Stafford, Newton, Ryan...I'd take any of these young guys over Colt plus some 10+ vets
It will be interesting to see how the game goes next week so you can either figure out who, other than Colt, deserves praise or how much blame Colt deserves... 
yebat' Putin
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Sure, all I say about McCoy is what I think about him going forward....it's a prognostication of what I saw from him at Texas and now as a Brown...
You can't tell either way, absolutely right....I'm just "betting" on the information I have on him that he falls into the backup/fringe, below AVG starter category and since I'm pretty good at betting I don't want to experience it the Cleveland way (the hard way) as we've done with Frye, DA, Quinn etc (yes, he IS better than those, but, like those still worse than league AVG)...by wasting more and more time on a below AVG NFL QB...take a good, long look at him this season and then finally draft/trade/sign, whatever, preferably draft your franchise QB...I'm tired of "finding out"...when you have to "find out" it means 1 thing for sure: he isn't there yet
Now, I already hear the homer: "but, but he only has 10 starts and 2 in his tailor made WCO system"...sure, and that's valid and that's why I want a full 16 game sample of him...the problem I have is he has shown no improvements in the departments he needs to make improvements to be a real NFL QB (pocket awareness and presence, stepping up, see the field, real NFL throws, not pitches etc etc...another thing no one has mentioned yet: I haven't seen him ONCE make an audible...did any of you? If not, another bad sign as he's either not allowed to or he has no confidence clue at what he's looking at yet...pick your poison, but it's another not so comforting sign)....with some other young QBs you see, like with Peyton and others back then, some signs, some real NFL throws and the obvious mistakes...but with Colt: he is what he is...his holes are huge and it looks like they aren't even working to correct them, which would mean that everyone involved knows it's not correctable anyway...they "work around" his deficiencies...that's why I say there's no upside...working around stuff is what you do with backup QBs thrown into the fire, not franchise QBs...like: trying your best with what you have, trying to be "efficient" despite obvious shortcomings that are not fixable
You hold Colt to unbelievable standards - standards you don't have for any other qb.........You say you want him to be good, but you know he never will be.
And then you list song and verse of bad plays -totally ignoring any good plays as "he got lucky", etc.
Your views are just as valid as any other persons - thats fine, but please don't couch your criticism of him as anything other than "I don't like him". It's fine if you don't. Don't hide.
Lastly - now, I may be mistaken here - but it seems to me that you were the person that not terribly long ago told ME I was the reason the "good" posters left here. ("good" football wise). I do believe it was you that said I ran them off.
Was that you? Or am I incorrect in my memory?
Regardless, YOU are the one running people off now. At least, making people tune you out.
I'm pretty sure no one has said Colt is a franchise qb. Most people are saying "I see good and bad, he's young, let's let him have his chance." Whereas YOU say "he's young, we'll give him his chance, but I know he won't do it."
Just my take. Carry on with the bashing.
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I wish you guys would stop quoting django, so I could not read what he wrote Basically, here's what he wants in a QB ... NEVER get behind in a game, and put games away while providing 4th quarter comebacks. Wait a minute... 
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I wish you guys would stop quoting django, so I could not read what he wrote
Basically, here's what he wants in a QB ...
NEVER get behind in a game, and put games away while providing 4th quarter comebacks.
Wait a minute...
But but.. that can't Oh.,, never mind 
#GMSTRONG
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You are blaming Colt because we were able to run for TDs so we didn't have to throw them? He threw exactly 1 pass in a goal to go situation that was incomplete... 1.
Browns in the 3rd Qtr: Fumble, punt, punt
4th Qtr: FG (after Young INT, ball at IND 21)
in the 2nd Half Colt was 1-4 on 3rd down and 3of6 for 17yds (-1, 7, 11) in Indy territory...he threw an incompletion on 2nd down before Shurmur decided to just give it to Hillis on 3rd&6 and take the FG...Hillis broke free for the TD
all that = he didn't put the game away....and he put up those numbers in a 1 score game
Good luck twisting that..you don't need to throw in goal to go situations to score TDs or make plays 
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On first down we lost 3 yards on a run, then Moore dropped a catchable ball and Colt was sacked on 3rd and 13...
and you're ok with that? Cool, I'm not...especially NOT in that specific situation, up 4p and in FG range
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It will be interesting to see how the game goes next week so you can either figure out who, other than Colt, deserves praise or how much blame Colt deserves...
I always call it like I see it...heck, I even gave Mangini props for the NE and NO wins for showing some guts for a change...and I really didn't like Mangini...I like Colt but if he doesn't look like a real NFL QB I will say so....if he plays a good game I will say so...I'd rather he has worse stats but works on his pocket awareness and throws than having him to praise for a good stat sheet and well, "efficient" game (you really have to watch the Shurmur presser if you haven't done so...from the horse's mouth)....because long term the former is better
#gmstrong
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Most people are saying "I see good and bad, he's young, let's let him have his chance." Whereas YOU say "he's young, we'll give him his chance, but I know he won't do it."
and what's the problem with that?
Though I don't "know" it, I'm just pretty sure and it's my outlook of him
#gmstrong
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Most people are saying "I see good and bad, he's young, let's let him have his chance." Whereas YOU say "he's young, we'll give him his chance, but I know he won't do it."
and what's the problem with that?
Though I don't "know" it, I'm just pretty sure and it's my outlook of him
Look at your post just above this - your reply to DC.
See what I'm talking about? You don't even care that on 1st down a run lost 3 yards. (that's colt's problem, right?), You don't care that a receiver dropped a pass - that's colt's problem, right?
And you seem to think the sack was colt's fault as well. We'll, I suppose he could've thrown it out of bounds - if he had time.
However, you consider all 3 plays colt's fault.
Just drop the "I want him to do well" crap. You don't. Heck, you even said the one pass later in the indy game, tight on the sideline near the endzone - which was completed - was pure luck and no NFL qb would throw that.
It's okay to admit you don't like McCoy. That's fine. I don't know if he raped your sister or what - but to hide your disdain for him behind things like "he'll never be a franchise qb", or "I know he doesn't have it but I'll give him this year" while attacking everything he does - it's pathetic.
You're not fooling anyone with your feigned "hope" he gets better - especially when you also say he won't get better. You poo poo mistakes by his team mates as being his fault, you discredit his good plays, and you over play ANY mistake on O as being Colt's fault.
You don't like the guy. Fine. Trust me, we all get it. No one looks at you as an nfl guru anyway.
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You hold Colt to unbelievable standards - standards you don't have for any other qb.........You say you want him to be good, but you know he never will be.
And then you list song and verse of bad plays -totally ignoring any good plays as "he got lucky", etc.
Your views are just as valid as any other persons - thats fine, but please don't couch your criticism of him as anything other than "I don't like him". It's fine if you don't. Don't hide.
Lastly - now, I may be mistaken here - but it seems to me that you were the person that not terribly long ago told ME I was the reason the "good" posters left here. ("good" football wise). I do believe it was you that said I ran them off.
Was that you? Or am I incorrect in my memory?
Regardless, YOU are the one running people off now. At least, making people tune you out.
I'm pretty sure no one has said Colt is a franchise qb. Most people are saying "I see good and bad, he's young, let's let him have his chance." Whereas YOU say "he's young, we'll give him his chance, but I know he won't do it."
Just my take. Carry on with the bashing.
That sums it up pretty good.
"From womb to MVP" in his never, never land opinions and just as fanciful as that, is he thinks others see credibility in his micro managing game rants, when in fact he loses any credibility as soon as he uses one of his child like expressions ... like Colt's UT plays.
Going on his rules of reasoning he will never understand the game of football better, then he does now, so I see no need to try and teach or enlighten him with any knowledge of the game, because in his mind he knows it all already.
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Most people are saying "I see good and bad, he's young, let's let him have his chance." Whereas YOU say "he's young, we'll give him his chance, but I know he won't do it."
and what's the problem with that?
Though I don't "know" it, I'm just pretty sure and it's my outlook of him
you can think what you want, but there are always counter-examples, such as:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm
look at his first 2 years as starting QB, then compare to:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McCoCo00.htm
Colt has a long way to go (much like Drew did), but he can get there.
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There is nothing...it's a correlation-causation brainfart....I can give you a dozens of QB with similar stats that were crap...in fact if you go by % I would bet my house that a very high % of young guys with stats like that end up being backups at best or out of the league
That said, I absolutely want Colt to play the entire year...I just hope we look elsewhere when he still looks the same at year's end....will be interesting for me to compare Colt to Gabbert now that he will most likely start in JAX
No No No Big-Boy...
Let's see if you're even old enough to grasp this...(Some of us r gonna show some age)...
Let's start here first...Compare McCoy to Kosar and Sipe COMING OUT...And that don't mean the "Closet"...
Strength's and Weaknesses...Start right there since u shoot thy mouth off so much...And I know what you're gonna say...This is NOW TIME not the 70's and 80's...OK cool...MANY Browns fans compare everyone at QB to what we had in a Kosar & Sipe because they WON...
Then u can turn your energy toward a Montana...How bout a Marino???...How bout a MULTI-CHAMPION Simms???
U slam McCoy and that's fine...But to think that even STATS r useless in this instance is borderline stupidity...I understand the STAT thing as much as anyone...It's never the do-all end-all...Never has been and never will be except to the Fantasy Folks...
Take a look at the QB's mentioned...And include an Elway and Manning if you'd like...You SHOULD shut thy pie-hole about it if u look at it in a common sense manor...The BOOK is still out on McCoy much like MANY others before him and after...
Anyone that judges a QB before he has had AT LEAST 2 YEARS in the NFL as a STARTER is an idiot beyond comprehension...Have your opinion...But to stay fast on that opinion is stupidity this early...And that includes your boy Gabbert...
Go Browns!!!
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I understand the STAT thing as much as anyone...It's never the do-all end-all...Never has been and never will be except to the Fantasy Folks...
sometimes I think that that is the problem here and some other boards. You get posters that only see the stats from a Fantasy standpoint and think it applies to the real game...
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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I understand the STAT thing as much as anyone...It's never the do-all end-all...Never has been and never will be except to the Fantasy Folks...
sometimes I think that that is the problem here and some other boards. You get posters that only see the stats from a Fantasy standpoint and think it applies to the real game...
And other think they mean nothing.
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I understand the STAT thing as much as anyone...It's never the do-all end-all...Never has been and never will be except to the Fantasy Folks...
sometimes I think that that is the problem here and some other boards. You get posters that only see the stats from a Fantasy standpoint and think it applies to the real game...
And other think they mean nothing.
They don't, if presented in the wrong context. It's never a tell all.
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You're right. Stats never tell the whole story.
But, to suggest they're meaningless is just wrong.
There's a reason that guys like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, ect. put up the best stats year after year.
Because they are the best QB's in the league.
Now, if someone like Vick comes in and puts up better numbers one year, does that mean he's a better QB? No. But those other guys are towards the top for a reason. Because they are the best.
They don't tell the whole story.
But they aren't meaningless.
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Browns in the 3rd Qtr: Fumble, punt, punt
Browns in the 2nd Qtr: 55 Yd TD drive, 80 Yd TD drive... Colt on 3rd down, 4-4 for 58 yards for 3 first downs and a touchdown. I can cherry pick my stats too. 
We scored 14 first half points and 13 second half points.. 27 points should win most games... You seem to want to assess style points though..
Oh and for the record, in the first half, Josh Freeman was 7 for 11 for 52 yards and was sacked twice... as they amassed 62 total yards of offense, three first downs and zero points. If Colt did that, even if he came back to win, you would be blaming him mightily for digging us into a hole, not praising his heroic comeback.
Colt in the first half was 13 of 17 for 142 yards, 1 TD, and a 120.2 rating while scoring 14 points, even though we were rushing the ball for 2.8 ypc... but, in your mind, none of that matters because you seem to want to blame him for getting ahead and then us being more conservative in the second half, especially as our defense was making plays.
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in the 2nd Half Colt was 1-4 on 3rd down and 3of6 for 17yds (-1, 7, 11) in Indy territory...
In the 2nd half... on 3rd down... in Indy territory... Sure sounds like you are cherry picking your parameters to figure out a stat that doesn't look good. 
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all that = he didn't put the game away....and he put up those numbers in a 1 score game
I never said he put the game away, I said the offense put the game away... with help from the defense, which I didn't specifically say, but should have.... And Josh Freeman put up his first half numbers as his team was falling farther and farther behind. But you seem to think that a TD in the third quarter is worth more than a TD in the second quarter.
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and you're ok with that? Cool, I'm not...
No I'm not "OK" with it, I just don't see blaming a rushing loss, then a dropped ball, then a sack on 3rd and 13 all on the QB. So when we lose yards in the rushing game it's Colt's fault but when we gain yards it's Hillis and the OL winning the game...
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I think the Colt in the pocket game is not a work in progress...you either can throw out of the pocket or you cant?
False...did Bradford do much from the pocket last year? no. Will Gabbert? not if they want him to play well. Has Cam Newton done much from the pocket? no. Can Tebow? no.
This is Colt's 2nd year in a pro-style offense, and its now a different one (completely different) than the one he was in last year, and this one he's had since the end of July to work in...with coaching.
Of course he's going to be iffy from the pocket.
If you want to see how shorter QBs play from the pocket take time and watch Brees, Vick and so on. These guys take DEEP drops, and when pressure comes, they get deeper rather than up into the pocket. Its what shorter QBs do, they work outside the pocket.
Colt will enjoy success in the pocket in time. Its not going to come overnight. Procket presence is learned. Its learned from time with your OL, time with your WRs and time in your offense...nothing else.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Browns in the 2nd Qtr: 55 Yd TD drive, 80 Yd TD drive... Colt on 3rd down, 4-4 for 58 yards for 3 first downs and a touchdown. I can cherry pick my stats too.
We were talking about "putting the game away"..you said he had a hand in it I said no way Jose, if you consider handing the ball off as being part of it the discussion really gets too stupid for me, if you have to resort to go all semantics with this, it's pretty telling
....and now you come up with 1st half stats? Is this kindergarden? You just act like you forgot what you stated and just talk about something else...Colt had a good 2nd Qtr, both in the Colts and Bengals games...did I ever dispute that?...my problem is, was and remains: he then never was able to put a 1 score game away in the 2nd half...that's reality. I also said that I highlight his negatives...and that his game is the same when he's "efficient" and that the problem of his game is that he'll never be conistently good with it (games so far proving that hypothesis)
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We scored 14 first half points and 13 second half points.. 27 points should win most games... You seem to want to assess style points though..
13 of them courtesy of Usama Young, Sheard and Cribbs, he did nothing for those 13p, he had 17yds on a FG drive that was already in FG range ...the 2 scoring drives you cited are really all the Offense under McCoy did....against a banged up Colts D (2 starting LBs out, DE Mathis banged up) and that's NOT enough to win most games, sorry...
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No I'm not "OK" with it, I just don't see blaming a rushing loss, then a dropped ball, then a sack on 3rd and 13 all on the QB. So when we lose yards in the rushing game it's Colt's fault but when we gain yards it's Hillis and the OL winning the game...
I can't remember a dropped ball honestly..so before I don't see it again, (how good was the throw etc) it's an incompletion...but even if it was a great pass dropped, getting sacked in that situation is bad enough on its own...and I remember the sack...he ran backwards out of the pocket making it easy for the DEs to get a free lane to him, it was a 8yd sack, if a QB steps into the pocket it's never more than 5yds
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You're right. Stats never tell the whole story.
But, to suggest they're meaningless is just wrong.
There's a reason that guys like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, ect. put up the best stats year after year.
Because they are the best QB's in the league.
Now, if someone like Vick comes in and puts up better numbers one year, does that mean he's a better QB? No. But those other guys are towards the top for a reason. Because they are the best.
They don't tell the whole story.
But they aren't meaningless.
They can be indicators, true, but come game time they still have to make the plays and I don't care if you have the number 1 ranked defense facing the 32 ranked offense. That number 1 ranked defensive team can still lose the game, because there are many factors that goes into every game, that can decide the outcome.
Also there are team stats and personal stats.
Personal stats mean nothing if the others on the team do not execute the plays to the best of their abilities.
This is football not tennis.
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Ok, here's my take. You are fully in the right having your opinion. Furthermore, you completely back up your opinion with examples. Nothing you have stated has been wrong in my opinion, in that we share a common understanding. I know it's completely "board approved" to slam Robiskie or Marecic, or Gocong or Hardesty or Hicks or Cousins or Greco or Massaquoi or Mitchell or Pashos or Vallos or Ventrone. But Colt McCoy is off limits. I get that. It's the way it is. It makes evaluations of McCoy hard since negatives are met with so much vehemence. Still, you stick to your guns and I appreciate that. I will say that some of the negatives in his game are a little to early to attribute his overall skills and abilities because he, and I'm singling him out from his teammates for a moment, is so new in this system. Sure his skill set is near perfect for this system. But that does not mean that he is above average in his execution of it yet. Nor should he be at this point. If he were in this current system for a year or so and we're still seeing the confusion and indecision then we've got a problem and many of the negatives you comment on, (and they are very real), carry a lot more weight at that point. But at this point, although the negatives are there I feel they are to be expected from any young QB learning this system, perfect skill set or not. It's a hard system to master. This offense calls for some very quick decision making and with being coached in it for all but less than 2 months I'm not surprised he struggles. I don't think he can be expected to take over a game with his mastery of the offense today. I don't know how hard it is to put everything you've got mentally into trying to master Dabols offense and then shift gears to a real offense with a shortened off-season, and it's lack of coaching, but I surmise it's a tough challenge. Tough for a vet let alone a young guy with so much riding on his shoulders. So when he makes ill advised throws, (that seem to work out prety often), it's to be expected early on. ( BTW: His throw to MoMass at the 1 yard line reminded me of a Brett Favre type of play. I'll bet when the two of them were talking he told Colt, "Hell Boy, chuck it up there, somebody'll catch it".  After all, Favre made a living out of throws like that. Of course he also made the record books with his ill-timed interceptions from it too, so my advice to Colt is to keep those kind of throws to a minimum. But in truth, we see chances taken like that by other teams and when it works they end up with 1st and goal from the 1. When it doesn't work it was ill-advised. When it gets picked it was probably Favre. ) He's going to miss seeing open receivers, he's going to panic with indecision at times and scramble when he should be stepping up. It's a fast game and with so much new information being processed in his head he's going to come up below average in a lot of ways simply by being overwhelmed. And I believe I understand his being overwhelmed. I do disagree with your take on Shurmur's comment of Colt being "efficient". I see nothing wrong with efficient. Dictioinary.com says, Efficient: performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable. I took that as more of a compliment than a backhanded put down. Just like when he calls guys "steady". That's a word he uses to describe a lot of players. While to us it's not exactly the most glittering of adjectives, it seems to Shurmur to be a real good characteristic of a quality player. He's called Joe Thomas and Brian Robiskie both steady, as well as others, and I think he uses it in the same manner some coaches use the word "consistent". And after all, that is what they want from players, consistency. Steady. Efficient. Consistent. He does seem to be more excited talking about Josh Cribbs but every coach wants him a team-full of Josh Cribbs. ( BTW: To all you jerks who put down Josh Cribbs last season when he was running around on 4 dislocated toes saying he's "lost a step", "is done, put a fork in him", "he got his big pay day and is now relaxing", well, he's healthy again, how do you like him now?!) No Django, unlike many others I don't see anything wrong with anything you're saying. It would behoove us all to honestly consider the things you are saying because the future is fast upon us and we'd better be ready to roll with the punches. I just think it's a little early to get down on Colt too much until he's had a chance to let this offense become more second nature to him rather than an overwhelming computation. Still, you seem willing to give him the time this season to pull through it although sometimes I think it's only to get past him and make an inevitable change at that position, which, if it does come down to that you'd better not gloat or you'll have less fans than you have now.
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I understand the STAT thing as much as anyone...It's never the do-all end-all...Never has been and never will be except to the Fantasy Folks...
sometimes I think that that is the problem here and some other boards. You get posters that only see the stats from a Fantasy standpoint and think it applies to the real game...
And other think they mean nothing.
Fantasy stats don't really mean much at all in the real game. I mean, it's not like you are looking at team stats is it? no, you are looking at individual stats and that don't mean anything in a TEAM sport.
How anyone can/would remotely confuse the two is beyond my ability to comprehend...
It's truly idiotic.....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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if you consider handing the ball off as being part of it the discussion really gets too stupid for me... Is this kindergarden?
I have refrained from calling you names and insulting your intelligence, if you did the same, more people would probably take you seriously.
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my problem is, was and remains: he then never was able to put a 1 score game away in the 2nd half...that's reality.
We had a 14-9 lead at halftime, after Hillis lost the fumble when we were driving, in the 3rd quarter it became 14-12... then it was 17-12, then 24-12, then 27-12.. then the Colts added a garbage TD... how is that not putting the game away? Did Colt do it by himself? No, absolutely not. But we were adding to our lead while preventing them from scoring.. is that not the definition of putting a game away? Would it have only been putting the game away if they had all be TDs and if we had not moved ourselves out of FG range? Should we have won 40-12?
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....and now you come up with 1st half stats?
I came up with first half stats because of the comment you made last week of not wanting a QB to struggle early and get behind and then have to race back to try to save the day... then you used Josh Freeman as an example of good QB play. I was taking a few thoughts and putting them together into one example... because just like it takes more than one person to win a football game, it also helps to consider situations in context when looking at stats. Freeman absolutely sucked for 2+ quarters as his team fell further behind then came back to win and that's great, Colt played well and built a lead and then relied on his defense and running game to help put the game away and that's bad...
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13 of them courtesy of Usama Young, Sheard and Cribbs, he did nothing for those 13p, he had 17yds on a FG drive that was already in FG range ...the 2 scoring drives you cited are really all the Offense under McCoy did....against a banged up Colts D (2 starting LBs out, DE Mathis banged up) and that's NOT enough to win most games, sorry...
So should we throw deep and play aggressive just to prove we can or should we just win the freakin' game? I have given the defense their credit and Cribbs his credit and the running game it's credit but if all of that is working in your favor, then why take chances in the passing game? The Colts had mustered just 4 FGs and our defense had them on the ropes, why do something to potentially allow them back in the game?
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but even if it was a great pass dropped, getting sacked in that situation is bad enough on its own...and I remember the sack...he ran backwards out of the pocket making it easy for the DEs to get a free lane to him, it was a 8yd sack, if a QB steps into the pocket it's never more than 5yds
You know in Week 1, early in the 4th quarter, down by 2 touchdowns, on 3rd and 4 and desperately needing to keep the drive alive.. Drew Brees got sacked and lost 10 yards and they had to punt.. they didn't get the ball back until 5 minutes left to go in the game.. it happens.
yebat' Putin
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I don't know if I've ever called anyone a name on here, maybe I have since I was banned once for a week..
But, please accept what I'm about to say NOT as a personal attack on you, but merely a complete and utter disagreement with your thought process..
It's IDIOTIC.... totally and completely off base.....
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I understand what you are saying, but since being a pretty big fantasy player the last 3-4 years, I also understand his point.
Good players consistently put up good numbers, and while I understand the team concept, it also takes individual players putting up good numbers for the team to be successful, so there is something to be said for good numbers.
What it doesn't account for is how one might manage a game, but then again, a Peyton Manning manages a game just fine.
I can't think of many QBs as an example who put up good numbers and don't manage things well.
I guess what I am saying is if your fantasy numbers are good, it's because your gameday numbers were good.
I am just saying this to help you comprehend....there are some parallel's between the two.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Django, a couple questions for you...
I've been writing and most has fallen on no responses, im interested in how you feel about a few things, cuz theres been times where ive disagreed with you and youve cleared up reasonings on things i didnt get from you.
First...when it comes to stepping up in the pocket. There are a number of QBs mostly shorter (around Colt's height) that dont generally step up in the pocket. Drew Brees is an example...when he gets a bit of pressure, he tends to drop back farther to keep everything in front of him. I dont often seem him step up into the pocket to fire a ball (ie the deep ball to Henderson this week, he stepped back from the pressure and then stepped into his throw). Vick is another example...when he sees pressure he moves out of the pocket to get a good clear passing lane and then makes his move. Steve Young did the same. Even Montana relatively did the same thing. Elway is another example of guys who moved outside of the pocket when things werent as smooth and this led to open passing lanes. Big Ben is a perfect example of it too, while he does have the ability to step into the pocket, it is more because teams have gone to a contain style defense on him and he has adapted and succeeds. Romo is another example. Brunell, i could go on.
This is something that Colt does...He doesnt take the typical Marino, Kelly, Stafford, Favre (who got out and moved ALOT), Rodgers (who does the same), Ryan, Brady, Sanchez...step up and fire method of getting open passing lanes. He takes the move approach, and early in his career its better than going the David Carr, Jake Delhomme, Tim Couch, duck and take the hit and live to the next play mentality...
This is something Colt has done well, and extends and makes things happen because of it. I dont think he wouldve found Watson on the TD pass in week 1 or Mo by staying in the pocket and stepping up. There wouldnt have been enough time.
Does this make Colt a bad NFL QB? That approach? How do you see it that it is a bad thing?
Accuracy is another thing that Colt excels at. While he has been less accurate this year (id blame timing and offense semantics for the discrepancy) accuracy is something that the best QBs have. They say Marino, Montana, Young, Rivers, Brady, Brees, Pennington and Rodgers are among the most accurate ever and thats good company. Sure Colt isnt there yet, but only Brees, Marino, Rivers, and Pennington were immediate starters out of that group. They also coincedently struggled. Would you rather have Pennington or Eli Manning? Anderson or Brees? Orton or Jamarcus? I dont much have better examples, but the constant deep ball doesnt necessarily work all the time. Colt is an accurate QB that makes decisions that doesnt hurt the team.
Colt is a QB that is accurate and doesnt take many risks. But to this point, while his YPA is low...he has only 1 turnover in 2 games, and has thrown 3 TDs. I cant find a bad in that...I'd rather that he not throw the deep ball in lieu of getting what he can without making a mistake. What of his throws is the bad? the velocity or the decisions or what? I think that 2/3s of the time completing his passes and not turning it over works for me. What say you?
Last question...
Given youve said he hasnt been able to put a game away. It has been noted that our WRs dont get much separation. Its also been noted that our playcalling has been subpar as they havent been terrific at establishing a rhythm in using the WRs and RBs fluidly to build upon previous play. Its also been noted that our OL hasnt been getting the push it needs to do the job efficiently.
How much of our inability to keep drives alive in the 2nd half has been on Colt, and how much has been on the aforementioned variables?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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NRTU
I love it when the Browns decide that they may have found a QB for the first time in 10 years, and everyone decides to determine the value of the finished product before the product is done.
In my mind the floor is Pennington and the ceiling Brees. It took Brees 3 years before the light came on, and Marty damn near killed him during the process. I know, I saw it happen in front of me. I saw Brees run out of town because he could not throw the laser 15 yard out... Sure, that matters, Leaf could throw the 15 yard out, but should have never played a NFL game. I saw that too. Meanwhile Brees has a big fat superbowl ring, and will live forever in New Orleans history.
I like what I have seen so far, and I am willing to let this one play out.
Colt is what he is, a second year quarterback that has some physical skills some leadership ability and some that believe in him. Any prediction of fate at this time is premature.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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While NRTM, I have left the door open for a while.
Nice reply.
I agree.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I get that there is individual stats that can mean something in both real football and fantasy football.
What I don't get is when people come on here talk stats all day long as if individual stats ever tell the whole story. In fact, they rarely tell the whole story.
Take a QB for instance. to my knowledge there isn't a stat out there that accounts for a receiver not hanging onto a ball thrown right at his hands, then watching it bounce off the recievers hands into the hands of a defender.
It's an interception.. and that's the way it's going to forever be written.
But is it? Is it really an interception? Well, yeah, but was it the QB's fault? Hardly, yet the QB will be held accountable for it his entire career.
Contrary to popular belief, stats can lie... or at least not give a True Picture.
Anyway Peen, I get your drift on this.. it's just that when it crosses the line, its almost silly.
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Still, you seem willing to give him the time this season to pull through it although sometimes I think it's only to get past him and make an inevitable change at that position, which, if it does come down to that you'd better not gloat or you'll have less fans than you have now.
First of all, as always a great and fair post...I probably have the harshest tone around here when I disagree on things, well then you're def the smoothest
I know my stance on Colts sounds that way, but I'm honestly ready to eat even more crow on him...remember, I've been already wrong on him as I didn't even see him become "effective" (we'll just have to disagree on what Shurmur meant with that....me? I saw a pause when asked and looked a lot like a very PC answer, when he said "extending the plays" I think he wasn't really too happy about it since Shurmurs "plays" should be off after 2-3 secs, I just think he was being nice to a young QB in his 2nd start in his sytem and that's absolutely the right thing to say...it's purely my interpretation of what and how he said it)...so already being wrong on him (why would I keep repeating this, if, as some suggest, I'm all about ego on this? you can all say I was already wrong on him and move on) I'd be happy he proves me wrong even more and improves...I'll get more detailed in response to King's post
I understand that I sound like with Mangini on Colt....that I just want time to pass so we can get rid of him. Thanks for outlining this btw. But it's totally different: with Mangini I was 100% sure and hated the guy with a passion, with McCoy it's more like with Crennel, who I really liked but my assessment of him pointed towards "fail" with every game that passed...and in both cases I wasn't absolutely sure because of it, I'm just a fan after all too...and I already that that even IF he fails I absolutely want to keep Colt as the backups if possible, otoh I didn't want Mangini to stay around in any capacity
so, if I sound like "only to get past him" it's only natural since at the time I write something I absolutely trust my opinion...if my outlook is that I don't see any significant betterment possibilities, I will sound that way...generally I think people around here have more a problem with HOW I say something, maybe it's a language thing: maybe that's a US-Europe thing, languages here are pretty direct/blunt and don't sugercoat things, , I dunno...but I think it's more the form and not the content of what I say, see Toad's thread...he sees and says pretty much the same things about Colt
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J/C
Originally, I planned on putting this in the "Robiskie APB" thread, but really it should be in the McCoy thread.
So, being the football nerd that I am, I re-watched the short cuts of the game yesterday to watch 1) Why Robiskie has no passes thrown to him and 2) How the DLine looked (again.) I'm just going to talk about 1).
So, I started off looking for Robiskie, and he seemed to be getting off the line just fine, but you don't get to see enough screen to see the whole route. However, that doesn't even matter to see what was going on in the game.
Every play that Robiskie was in on, he was lined up on the left side. McCoy doesn't even look in his direction. I thought "man, it must be really bad if McCoy isn't even looking to his side." Then, they started running a lot of the two tight end single back set with Little, Cribbs, Smith, and Watson. Little and Cribbs would flip sides, or Massaquoi would be out there with Little, and it dawned on me that McCoy never looked to the left, regardless of personnel. The Browns had 34 passing situations in the game at Indy. Here they are:
3rd and 3 at CLE 27C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to M.Massaquoi.
1st and 10 at CLE 28(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short middle to B.Watson to CLV 35 for 7 yards (J.Powers).
1st and 10 at CLE 39(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short left to J.Cribbs to CLV 48 for 9 yards (J.Tryon; J.Powers).
1st and 10 at IND 49(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short middle to G.Little to IND 44 for 5 yards (D.Nevis; J.Powers).
3rd and 2 at IND 41(Run formation) C.McCoy sacked at 50 for -9 yards (D.Freeney). FUMBLES (D.Freeney), recovered by CLV-J.Thomas at CLV 45. J.Thomas to CLV 45 for no gain (D.Nevis). IND - Freeney credited with 14 sack yards.
2nd and 5 at 50C.McCoy pass short right to G.Little to IND 46 for 4 yards (J.Lacey).
1st and 10 at IND 44(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short right to P.Hillis pushed ob at IND 25 for 19 yards (J.Lacey).
2nd and 7 at IND 22(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short right to O.Marecic to IND 20 for 2 yards (K.Conner) [D.Nevis]. Indianapolis challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Run formation) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to O.Marecic [D.Nevis].
3rd and 7 at IND 22(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short right to M.Massaquoi to IND 14 for 8 yards (J.Lacey).
2nd and 5 at IND 9C.McCoy pass short right to P.Hillis to IND 6 for 3 yards (K.Conner). PENALTY on CLV-A.Hicks, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at IND 9 - No Play.
2nd and 15 at IND 19(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short right to P.Hillis to IND 16 for 3 yards (E.Foster; J.Lacey).
3rd and 12 at IND 16(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass deep left to E.Moore for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
2nd and 2 at CLE 28(Run formation) C.McCoy pass incomplete short left to G.Little (J.Powers).
3rd and 2 at CLE 28(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short right to M.Massaquoi to CLV 37 for 9 yards (J.Lacey).
1st and 10 at CLE 37(Pass formation) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to Al.Smith.
2nd and 10 at CLE 37(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short right to P.Hillis to CLV 39 for 2 yards (J.Lacey).
3rd and 8 at CLE 39(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short left to J.Cribbs to IND 36 for 25 yards (J.Tryon).
1st and 10 at IND 36(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short left to Al.Smith to IND 29 for 7 yards (K.Conner).
2nd and 3 at IND 29(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass deep right to M.Massaquoi to IND 1 for 28 yards (J.Lacey).
2nd and 8 at CLE 22(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short right to O.Marecic to CLV 26 for 4 yards (P.Angerer). FUMBLES (P.Angerer), and recovers at CLV 26. O.Marecic to CLV 26 for no gain (P.Angerer).
3rd and 4 at CLE 26(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to G.Little (J.Lacey). PENALTY on IND-K.Conner, Defensive Pass Interference, 6 yards, enforced at CLV 26 - No Play.
1st and 10 at CLE 32C.McCoy pass short middle to B.Watson to CLV 41 for 9 yards (P.Wheeler; P.Angerer).
3rd and 6 at CLE 47(Shotgun) C.McCoy scrambles right end to IND 44 for 9 yards (A.Bethea).
1st and 10 at CLE 22(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short left to G.Little to CLV 40 for 18 yards (J.Powers; M.Bullitt). IND-M.Bullitt was injured during the play. His return is Probable.
2nd and 8 at CLE 42(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short middle to Al.Smith to 50 for 8 yards (D.Nevis; J.Powers).
2nd and 8 at IND 48(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short right to P.Hillis to IND 49 for -1 yards (A.Bethea) [R.Mathis].
3rd and 9 at IND 49(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass incomplete deep right to M.Massaquoi (A.Bethea).
2nd and 12 at CLE 31(Run formation) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to B.Watson.
3rd and 12 at CLE 31(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to M.Massaquoi.
1st and 10 at IND 21(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short left to J.Cribbs to IND 14 for 7 yards (M.Bullitt).
3rd and 4 at IND 15(Shotgun) C.McCoy pass short right to G.Little to IND 4 for 11 yards (A.Bethea; J.Lacey).
1st and 10 at CLE 26(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short right to O.Marecic to CLV 35 for 9 yards (M.Bullitt).
1st and 10 at CLE 37(Run formation) C.McCoy pass short right to Al.Smith to CLV 41 for 4 yards (P.Angerer).
2nd and 6 at IND 24C.McCoy pass incomplete short right to B.Watson.
7 of the 34 passing snaps resulted in passes to the left:
4 designed screens
1 nice play to Greg Little for 18 yards
1 almost pick-six to Greg Little
1 TD to Moore on the broken play rollout
If I was an opposing DC or Safety, I wouldn't even cover that side of the field, just let your corner man up on anyone they throw out there. This needs to get corrected or other teams will catch on real quick.
Sadly, I remember this being a criticism of the offense that he ran at UT, that he only had to look at one side of the field. I just didn't realize it always meant the same side of the field.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Colt McCoy is here to prove you
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