DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum "Former NBA Player Accuses Atlanta Restaurant of Racism, But is It?"

Link to the story

Former NBA player Joe Barry Carroll and a friend have filed a law suit against an Atlanta restaurant, The Tavern at Phipps, claiming that the establishment forced them to leave when they wouldn’t give up their seats to whites. The popular eatery claims to have a long-standing policy requiring men to give up their seats to ladies when the bar gets crowded. Carroll and his companion, lawyer Joseph Shaw, were asked to do so for two white women, but refused. The black men were ousted from the hot spot by a security guard as a result. Now the pair are suing The Tavern at Phipps, seeking retribution for this supposedly racist act in federal court.
While it is hard to believe that this is international news, The Daily Mail (a prominent paper in the UK) has more on the restaurant’s side of the story:
The restaurant insists there was no discrimination and that it was a long-standing ‘good manners’ practice to allow women a seat at the bar if the venue is very busy.
Their lawyer David Long-Daniels said thousands of men have complied with those rules, including stars like Michael Jordan.
‘Chivalry is not dead,’ he said. ‘And it’s not a civil rights violation to give up your seat to a woman.’
The row stems back to a Friday night in 2006 when Mr Carroll, who started playing in the NBA in the 80s, and Shaw sat at the end of the bar and ordered some drinks and food.
As the crowd grew, a bartender offered them complimentary drinks to move but they declined. They were asked several more times to allow women to have their seats but refused.
A manager eventually threatened to call security if they did not acquiesce and an off-duty Atlanta police officer who works at the restaurant was called over.
Lawyers told the court that the guard said: ‘That’s the way we do it here’ as he ushered the men outside.

By contrast, lawyers for Carroll and Shaw say they can prove that The Tavern at Phipps has many policies in place intended to discourage blacks from spending time there — and that their clients’ removal is part of that pattern. Citing statements made in interviews with current and former staff, Carroll and Shaw’s attorneys say the owner is afraid that blacks will attract a “thug” clientele, so steps are allegedly taken to keep them away.
Methods include slow-serving African-Americans during busy times, scheduling black hostesses to work during off-peak hours, and playing country music while large black events are taking place in the area.
In addition, the African-American men say they saw white men sitting at the bar when they were asked to leave. The restaurant of course contends that only women (aside from Carroll and Shaw) were seated there. Therein lies the problem.
Even if Carroll and Shaw’s attorneys are able to prove that the owner of The Tavern at Phipps has racist policies in place, it does appear that this is not one of those policies. There is no way to prove conclusively whether there were white men at the bar when Carroll and Shaw were asked to leave, unless there is video of the scene available as evidence. Even if there is, it cannot be established that those men were not also asked to give up their seats later, or that some other circumstance than racism came into play if they stayed.
There’s just no way to know. And there is just no reason to fight over this.
Primarily, this case is a waste of federal funds. It started on Monday, is expected to last a week, and all that comes to mind is: “Is this the best way to be spending taxpayer dollars in the middle of a recession?” This is not a Rosa Parks moment.
Yes, racism is real. But it is a bit much to wrangle the federal judiciary system into defending your right to eat wings and drink beer in an upscale environment. It should come as no revelation that a restaurant owner does not like attracting a black clientele, which is evident to pretty much any city dweller that has dealt with such issues. This case is not a good means of addressing racism in the world, or even in nightlife.
As blacks, we are accustomed to see racism everywhere because it is. That being said, we have to intelligent about where and how we seek to expose and address it. Otherwise, we come off looking like Carroll and Shaw in this instance: paranoid and petty. There are times to let racism roll off your back, and eat wings someplace else. This is one of them.


---

I find it to be more of a sexist policy rather than being a racial issue. It should still be grounds for a lawsuit.

Quote:

---

The restaurant insists there was no discrimination and that it was a long-standing ‘good manners’ practice to allow women a seat at the bar if the venue is very busy.

---

There was actually discrimination, not by race, but by gender. They shouldn't be forcing "chivalry" onto people. If the guy wants to give up the seat to a woman, great. If not, well it's first come, first serve.

Quote:

---

There was actually discrimination, not by race, but by gender. They shouldn't be forcing "chivalry" onto people. If the guy wants to give up the seat to a woman, great. If not, well it's first come, first serve.

---

I got no issue with this, although if they want to do these policies, they should protect themselves by moving to a club status instead of a business.

I go and play pool with my coworkers after work sometimes, and one place we go is a little strip club place in the town next to me. Well anyway, it's owned by an ex-cop and you can smoke in there. Why, because it's considered a "club" instead of a regular restarant/bar.

The only other place in the area that you can smoke inside is an old yacht club that isn't really a yacht club anymore, but has a restaraunt/bar. Since it's a club, people can smoke in the bar.

These kind of practices are more fitting for a "club", that's all. Doesn't have to be an actual club, but the legal status could be, and then it gives them much more power over the rules and policies.

...or they could just post a sign saying "When the bar is full, gentlemen will be asked to vacate their seats for ladies" or something like that.

had to look that one up.

I didn't say "vacate in their seat"

Quote:

---

There was actually discrimination, not by race, but by gender. They shouldn't be forcing "chivalry" onto people. If the guy wants to give up the seat to a woman, great. If not, well it's first come, first serve.

---

Or the guys could just get the hell up and shut up. I'm sick and tired of whineyass people doing crap like this. This is the bars "thing", its what they do, it's their tradition.... must they really post a big ugly sign telling people this is what they do? Live with it. Then to cry racism makes it even more absurd. Why are people so freakin stupid? (Not you. )

My buddy and I would be glad to get up....even if we felt we were getting a raw deal. I would either be happy to help two hot little ladies....or just leave and spend my money elsewhere.

The way my buddy orders drinks and tips, a bartender would want us to stay and be happy.

That wouldn't legally work in Ohio.

Someone could change a bar/restaurant to a private club, but if they sell stuff, it won't work under the law.

The only exception for private clubs in Ohio is if they have zero employees. Since the Ohio Supreme Court ruled that even volunteer employees count as employees ..... then there really is no such thing as a private club without employees.

The only other exemption I can recall was something having to do with businesses who primarily (or solely) sell tobacco. However, IIRC, I think that was shot down too.

I didn't even want to get into the argument that it IS just the right thing to do... And yes, a lot of people COULD use a little chivalry and civility forced on them... maybe they would learn how to act.

Quote:

---

playing country music while large black events are taking place in the area.

---

Playing country music in a southern (Georgia) bar? Yes, that is a blatantly racist.

Quote:

---

There are times to let racism roll off your back, and eat wings someplace else. This is one of them.

---

No it's not. While I appreciate this guys attempt to advise people to pick their battles (something that I feel is vitally important and one of the reasons a lot of good causes get bad names because they choose to fight over petty stuff), this is not one of those times to let racism roll off his back because I don't see anything about it that is racist.

They weren't even forced to leave, in fact they were offered a free drink to just stand up to let a women sit. Offering a free drink does not make it sound like they were in a rush to get them out.

And playing country music makes them racist? That's just a stereotype. I teach at a HBCU (Historically Black College or University) even though I'm white. But my classes deal with the entertainment industry. Yet, most of my students like to hear about the country performers concerts that I've worked on. Why? Because country music is in right now. Recently I talked about an Usher concert and a Brad Paisley concert talking about a type of lighting instrument that both used and had far greater feedback on Paisley and people connected to it better. Out of 300 total students that I have this semester between all of my classes, only 1 is white and none come from a different ethnic background. Yet, they were more interested in the country musician....since as I stated, country is currently in and popular.

You're racist for even saying that black people might like country music. Come on, the article in the first post clearly proves country music can only be enjoyed by whites, especially in the south.

[/sarcasm]

I don' know much about the legal system....but why are we hearing about this now if it happened in 2006?

I find it suspicious that a lawyer was at the dinner and the thought was "hey! lets sue them!". And then somehow the lawsuit becomes in defense of all black people and not just their particular situation.

If you only have a hammer...you tend to see every problem as a nail...
If you are a lawyer.........

None the less, in the South, Men give up their seats for Ladies.




I know, sounds crazy to some, but it's the way I was raised.



It's funny....I was at Huntington Beach a few days ago....a couple of girls.....say in their 20's looked they were setting up for a birthday party, and one was lugging a big tote out of the trunk.


The one girl had moved along with a few items while the other was struggling with the plastic tote.


I didn't know them at all but asked her if I could get that for her.....she said she was fine....she almost looked at me like I was weird for asking....so I walked to the water tower and looked around a while.


As I came back I saw the two of them struggling with the same tote....and again asked them if I could carry that for them and both looked at me like i was some kind of pervert.



In the South, men don't watch women lug stuff around. Men do the lugging, even if you don't know the woman.


I am a good lugger. I can lug a lot.



Them not allowing me to help didn't tick me off. It made me feel inferior, like I was some weak, old man.


I finally wrote it off that they had never been offered a hand by a man before and and just didn't know how to respond.

When I was about 17 I was at the golf course and a woman and I arrived at the same door at the same time. I took my last few steps quick to make sure I got there first and I opened the door and stepped aside and said, "After you." This woman, who was in her 40s said in a snippy voice, "You don't think I could get it myself?" So I went through the door and as she reached for it I pulled it closed behind me and made her reopen it. Unfortunately my mom saw it and I caught hell.. even after I explained how rude she was I still caught hell.

Funny thing is that had been another guy, I still would have held the door for him in that situation.

I typically hold the door for everyone.

One day I held a door for this woman, and she said:

"You don't have to hold the door because I'm a lady."

..... and I said

"I didn't. I held it because I'm a gentleman."

That's nice to hear - we do it in the North too.

Manners are manners wherever you are; or as Ytown said "being a gentleman".

Only a handful of times, have I been taken to task for holding a door. Truthfully, it hasn't happened in a long time.

Last week, I had my instrument case slung over my shoulder and reached the musician's entrance at the same time as a flute player. I opened the door for her, and she deferred, saying "No- after you- you have the bigger load to carry." I said, "If I do that, you'll deprive me of an opportunity to be the gentleman My Mother raised me to be. You wouldn't want me to get in trouble with My Mom, would you?"

Holding chairs for ladies, opening doors... they may be a bit old-fashioned, but I strictly adhere to them for these reasons:

1. 99% of the time, it leaves a good impression. Whenever you're out in public someone sees you... and it's always best to present yourself in a positive light. Manners are like a well-tailored, conservatively-cut suit: they never go out of style.

2. You just might be the one good thing that's happened in someone else's day. A kindness extended to a stranger may be just the thing to turn their day aound.

3. It costs you nothing, and it builds karma. I'm a firm believer in the idea that a person's spirit (positive or negative) attracts like energy. The more I do for others, the better I feel. The better I feel, the better company I am for others. That produces a positive energy around you that can be built upon... and used by others.

4. There is enough selfishness and alienation already in this world... and I don't need to add to it. I see folks cut each other off on the highway, interrupt another's speech to assert their own views, cut in lines and generally behave like boorish barbarians every single day. It sickens me to the point that I just don't want to be a part of that dynamic. If you ain't part of the solution, you're probably part of the problem.

I'm sure that there are days when I'm preoccupied nd may (by my actions) diss someone unintentionally.. but I truly believe those days are rare for me.

It all goes back to my early training, as a kid and teen: evey time I'd head out the door with my friends, My Mom or Pop would call after me: "Hey! -remember your last name while you're out there..." It was a great training tool for the son of a high-visibility public figure in a smallish town. When you realize that you represent not only yourself, but your family's good name, you tend to be a little more aware about how you're being perceived.

_________

As for the fellows in the Atlanta establishment: discretion is the better part of valor. I doubt that I'd find myself in a similar circumstance as these guys, because my conditioning would have compelled me to be one of the first to offer my seat to ladies, if I knew that was the establishment's policy. Besides- what better way is there to initiate a conversation?

Racism? Bigotry? I've seen it. I've lived it. It sets one's blood to a low simmer that never really cools down completely. Pops gave some great advice on that when I was an angry 17 years of age: "You can shout racism every single day and probably be right, but you need to be smart about the battles you choose. Pick the times when standing up means the most- otherwise, you'll be fighting every day until you die- and that's no way to live, son."

This is one of those My Pops was telling me to leave alone, I believe. If the accusations made about the establishment are true, and the policy exists not to exclude African Americans but to discourage their patronage, I can do more to:

1. show them how foolish and misguided their policy is
2. make them uncomfotable (maybe even pissed) but helpless

...by simply behaving like the gentleman My Mother raised me to be. And it would be easy and natural for me- because I've been at it since I was a little kid, and I've always been in the public eye.

Now... if some real estate agent/company wants to redline me out of a house I wish to purchase? Some private school wants to exclude my niece, even though she's overqualified to attend? Some Barney Fife-type deputy hassles me when I'm in my tux, carrying my cello, breaking no laws, and walking into a venue with several of my colleagues? Oh yeah- then i's on like Donky Kong. All of us'll end up in court... and I'll be absolutely relentless.

This fight is a frivolous one (imho), and one that would be very hard to win. And in the end, winning it won't help The Cause. What Pops was trying to tell me is simple: If you're going to fight against racism, do it in a way that will benefit ALL... not just yourself. Winning this lawsuit will change nothing, beside making a single establishment change its seating policy. It does not seek to enhance the greater good, it's not universal in its scope, and it doesn nothing to curtail or handcuff the true racism that's still vicimizing whole segments of America's population.

These men have every right to pursue a legal course of action... but if they do so, they'll be making a different choice than I would. Doesn't necessarily make them wrong... it just means that I'd have chosen a different battle to fight.

.02

it's weird isn't it. how something as simple as holding a door open seems to catch people off-guard these days?

i always hold the door going into our office open for others (big oak door that is a pain to get open, especially if you are carrying your lunch and laptop, etc.). half the time, I get a 'thank you', the other half I get a weird look like I am just not normal for doing it.

I took a girl out to dinner several plus several months ago, (lol) and I went with her to the passenger side of the truck ad unlocked/opened the door for her.

She said that no one had ever done that for her.

That's where my wife is funny.

If I open a door or do the typical chivalry things she is thankful. If I try to help her with a heavy object or a tough task, she gets defensive and replies "I CAN handle this myself." Of course that is usually followed up later on with making a point that she HAD to do it by herself.

I just can't win.

Quote:

---

I just can't win.

---

That's all you had to say. We feel your pain.

Since this has turned into a courtesy thread

I always open up doors for people, even if I am just standing near a door and see someone approaching it. I don't think I've ever gotten a rude look or comment, however there have been plenty of people who don't even acknowledge me and just walk right on past like I didn't even exist. Anytime someone holds a door for me, I make sure to thank them for it.

The other bit of courtesy that has annoyed me lately. Crossing the street between a store and the parking lot. I always either jog across or briskly walk when a car is waiting for me while making eye contact with the car waiting. Recently, I've noticed a ton of people who like to just meander on by at an exceptionally slow pace much slower than a normal walking speed. On top of it, they don't even care to look at you in car or even seem to care how slowly and diagonally they are walking across the street.

Just my. 02

Everything can be racist if you try hard enough

It was $50K on Wednesday, food and houses have gone up, it's $51.5K now.

J/C

I believe that private institutions should be able to manage their business in any way, shape, or form, they want.

However, it is flat out rude for a restaurant to ask anybody to get up and move after settling in.

As for the restaurant's scheduling practices, music selection, etc. - They are a business and they have to manage in a way that is best for their sustainability. Customers have no right to demand that a business bend their policies to appease minorities, majorities, religions, etc etc

I don't think its a good business policy to be having people give up their seats; but they should be free to run their bar/club however they want. Probably should offer a refund in that situation if the guys aren't happy about it.