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This is what gets me ...... their contract prohibits layoffs? Really? So 43 billion fewer items are being mailed today that were 5 years ago ..... but no one can be laid off? They are looking at closing almost half of their distribution centers, and not one person can be laid off. This is kinda ridiculous. I don't want anyone to lose their jobs ...... but man .... if the demand is not there, and will probably never again return to previous levels, then there is no way that employment numbers can remain the same as they were. It's just a matter of simple economic that an agency with massive amounts of over staffing, and massive budget deficits will have to make cuts. There really is no other sensible way around it. It sucks, because I have several friends who work for the Post Office. Hopefully everyone eligible to retire will do so in order to preserve jobs for those who truly need them. Regardless, the Post Office must get its budget under control. (although I can see the point made by a friend of mine who said "Why should we be the only agency that has to follow a budget?") I also see that Postal workers will have a rally. That's all well and good ..... but I'd like to know what their solutions are ...... other than "Just keep everything the same". I found this rather insane: "“They’re going to have to offer some kind of major retirement incentive because with the closing there wouldn’t be enough jobs left for people,” Truss said.
The contract prohibits layoffs of workers with six years or more of consecutive postal service employment." I don't know how any contract could be agreed upon with such a clause. That's just stupid, especially in uncertain times. Anyway .... more on the subject ..... http://www.ohio.com/news/break-news/u-s-...t-risk-1.235185U.S. Postal Service could close Akron and Canton mail centers, putting 600 employees at risk By Katie Byard Beacon Journal business writer Published: September 16, 2011 - 12:10 AM The financially struggling U.S. Postal Service said Thursday it might close Akron’s mail-processing facility that employs about 400 full-time workers. The Akron facility and the Canton center that employs more than 200 people are among nine scheduled to close in Ohio. The work being done in Akron on Wolf Ledges Parkway and Cleveland Avenue Northwest in Canton would be sent to a facility in Cleveland as part of the agency’s nationwide cost-cutting proposal. Akron’s mail-sorting operation is separate from those involving mail carriers and the post office at the Wolf Ledges complex. John Disko, 60, of Tallmadge, who works in the Akron mail-processing facility, said he and fellow employees “are just waiting to see what’s happening. It’s like everybody’s holding their breath.” He said older workers “feel sorry for the younger people” who can’t retire. The Postal Service said Thursday that it is considering closing roughly 250 of its 487 processing plants. Victor Dubina, Postal Service spokesman in Cleveland, said the agency could begin revealing in March which of the facilities will close. Other Ohio mail-processing facilities being reviewed for possible closing are in Youngstown, Toledo, Cincinnati, Steubenville, Dayton, Athens and Chillicothe. The only Ohio mail-processing plants not on the list are in Cleveland and Columbus, said Julie Truss, vice president of the Ohio Postal Workers Union. The Postal Service said that it also plans to change its “service standard” for delivery of first-class mail. The new standard would be delivery in two to three days. The service said this means that “on average, customers would no longer receive mail the day after it was mailed.” Mary Sitko, president of the Akron Metro Postal Union, said she thinks the Akron plant will stay open. “But I believe our function in the building could be something different.” “It’s all kind of vague right now,” Sitko said. She noted that in her job as a mail-processing clerk she works with a machine that sorts catalogs and magazines for the Canton and Mansfield areas. “Maybe we could take on another city.” Sitko said, “I don’t have specifics because they [postal service officials don’t have specifics.” Disko, the technician, said keeping the Akron facility makes sense. He noted it is in “a prime location, at the intersection of two freeways.” The review of mail-processing centers comes as the postal service is projecting a record $10 billion loss this fiscal year amid a drastic drop in the amount of first-class mail. The service has blamed the Internet, as well as the weak economy, for the drop in mail volume. Volume has dropped by more than 43 billion items over the last five years. “The decline has created substantial excess capacity within the postal processing network,” the postal service said. Closing all of the approximately 250 facilities on the nationwide list would save $3 billion a year and cut about 35,000 jobs, Postmaster General Patrick Donahoe said at a news conference in Washington, D.C. Some employees may have to change jobs if their plant closes and they don’t retire, Donahoe said. Julie Truss, the Ohio Postal Workers Union official, noted that the labor contract covering workers limits layoffs, and speculated Thursday that the U.S. Postal Service will offer a retirement incentive. “They’re going to have to offer some kind of major retirement incentive because with the closing there wouldn’t be enough jobs left for people,” Truss said. The contract prohibits layoffs of workers with six years or more of consecutive postal service employment. The U.S. Postal Service, meanwhile, has asked Congress to override the no-layoff provisions in its labor contracts. The service also has asked Congress to allow it to eliminate Saturday mail delivery, and change or eliminate an annual roughly $5.5 billion payment the agency is required to pay into a fund covering health-care benefits for future retirees. This is in additional to a proposal to close hundreds more post offices throughout the country. The American Postal Workers Union — the national organization that includes the Akron local union — and other labor organizations are planning rallies nationwide Sept. 27 in support of proposed legislation that would allow the postal service to save money by applying billions of dollars of “pension overpayments” to the funding of the health-care benefits for future retirees. The legislation “would give us financial breathing room as we make changes,” she said. “It really could help the postmaster general not to go the extreme of damaging the service to the American public.” Postal workers will rally in Akron at 4 p.m. Sept. 27 outside the Federal Court House at Main and Market streets in downtown Akron. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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They can keep everyone, it's just a stamp will cost $1. Which of course no one will buy, causing more budget problems, and a rise in stamp prices.  efficiency at it's best. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I found this rather insane: "“They’re going to have to offer some kind of major retirement incentive because with the closing there wouldn’t be enough jobs left for people,” Truss said.
that's the one part I don't find insane. most businesses (public or private) will try to induce a sect of their employees to take a special severence package or retire to save themselves money so that they do not have to lay off as many people when it comes to that.
#gmstrong
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Well, the insane part is that some jackwagon actually agreed to terms that people cannot be laid off.. which means that the Postal Service cannot reduce its payroll. It can close the facilities, but it has no choice about finding work for the people that were there.
THIS is just another prime example of how unions have absolutely screwed this nation.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Well, the insane part is that some jackwagon actually agreed to terms that people cannot be laid off
yes, that is the insane part.
#gmstrong
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I found this rather insane: "“They’re going to have to offer some kind of major retirement incentive because with the closing there wouldn’t be enough jobs left for people,” Truss said.
that's the one part I don't find insane. most businesses (public or private) will try to induce a sect of their employees to take a special severence package or retire to save themselves money so that they do not have to lay off as many people when it comes to that.
They could well have to offer early retirement to people with 7 or 8 years service.
That's ridiculous.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Doing THAT would be near criminal and I would literally want heads to roll.
People just need to be moved to another office. If their new office is too far for them to drive to, then they are free to quit their job.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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but that is only because of the insane part (that they cannot lay people off).
otherwise, they would just offer a sweetheart severence package to people in that range (which is customary).
#gmstrong
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Well, the insane part is that some jackwagon actually agreed to terms that people cannot be laid off.. which means that the Postal Service cannot reduce its payroll. It can close the facilities, but it has no choice about finding work for the people that were there.
THIS is just another prime example of how unions have absolutely screwed this nation.
In the context of how it is today,, yeah,,I agree with you. but there was a time when the Post Office was about the most important government run entity. Other than the military perhaps.
Back when there wasn't really any other method of getting a letter from one place to another.
The real shame is this, someone at the Post Office didn't have the foresight to see what could be. They could have been UPS or Fedex had they thought to get set up. Had they done that, we wouldn't even be having this discussion today.
I'll bet that if the Post Office had created the type of service that UPS and Fedex created, there won't even be a UPS or Fedex. (well, maybe a fedex cause they started out with everything being overnight,,, maybe)
I worked for a Large International Temporary service and one of the biggest contracts we had nationally was the USPS.
Somewhere along the line, the USPS Brass decided they needed a flexible workforce that wasn't part of the union. So they worked out a deal with the union to allow temps. (if memory serves me correctly, the temps worked mostly in sorting centers or back office type capacites.. to my knowledge they delivered the mail)
I'd bet you that there aren't many temps working there now.. if any!
They had many layoffs during the time I was aware of the business.. but it was never direct employees of the USPS that I recall. it was the temps that got cut.
You can blame the unions if you want, but really, who was the dope that agreed to it from the USPS Side of things. Takes two to tango..
I think UPS is unionized and you don't see them having a lick of problem financially. They just run it right. They adjust to the changing market place, they add value through innovation etc etc.
I really believe that most of the failure of the USPS resides at the top of the organization. And they'll tell you it's really congress.. They probably aren't far off.
JMO however
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Damanshot
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How can we put all unions together..I worked almost 35 yrs in construction.. Over 25 of those as a foreman, and yes i ran multi million dollar projects. Just because you were union didn't mean you had a job..If you couldn't do the work you didn't have a job...I remember 1 job 1 of our supers came out and told me your really going to have to babysit them on this job because we have to hire alot of new guys because were so busy...i told him hire who ever but my card is no differant than theirs, so if they can't do the job they ain't working here i have a job to do and if they can;t do theres then bye. and thats how it works in construction..union or non union.
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The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
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how long ago was the current USPS labor contract signed? if it was in the last 15 years, then I would suspect that they would know email was a pretty big thing adn they might need to downsize at some point.
agreed that the failure is at the top. i'm sure congress had a hand, but alot would be in their management as well.
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how long ago was the current USPS labor contract signed? if it was in the last 15 years, then I would suspect that they would know email was a pretty big thing adn they might need to downsize at some point.
agreed that the failure is at the top. i'm sure congress had a hand, but alot would be in their management as well.
Well, let's see, the contract ran all throughout the 80's and through the 90's, but then in 99 I left that company and from that point, I kinda lost track of it.
My father had two jobs,, Towmotor driver at a Fisher Body plant in Dravosburg PA and he owned a small business. When he got layed off at Fisher Body, which happened from time to time, he always used to say,, somethings wrong when a guy can get layed off and still collect 90% of his regular pay.
Dad didn't care much if he got layed off from time to time,, that just gave him time to work at his business which was fairly successful. (Shoe Repair shop and he sold Red Wing work boots also)
Unions had thier uses back in the day when employers would require them to work in something less than safe environments and would work them like dogs for next to nothing wages.
Workers needed to join forces to get some reasonable treatment.
But today, we have the Department of Labor that oversees working conditions, sets work rules etc etc.. everything that made unions important to the labor movement.
Unions are outdated today.. they add an extra layer of cost and regulation that's just not needed in MOST cases.
But,, when you look at it in hindsight, if companies hadn't beat employees to death back in the day, there wouldn't have been a need for unions to begin with so I guess you could say, they reap what they sew. (is that the correct spelling of sew in that context)
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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Unions are outdated today.. they add an extra layer of cost and regulation that's just not needed in MOST cases.
The union bosses at some point became as powerful and as greedy as the corporate bosses that they were supposed to keep in check.
yebat' Putin
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Unions are outdated today.. they add an extra layer of cost and regulation that's just not needed in MOST cases.
The union bosses at some point became as powerful and as greedy as the corporate bosses that they were supposed to keep in check.
That's what happened for sure. Growing up, when I was a really little guy, my mom thought the union was the best thing since sliced bread.. My dad was never convinced of that.
Dad worked for the union and he also was a small business owner. I learned from him which I suppose is why I can still see both side of the argument.
There was, at one time, some balance. But greed at the union leadership level cause(d) all that we see today regarding te hatrid towards unions.
Just don't make the mistake of thinking the workers ARE the union. Today, I think they arent even close to the same thing.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I've been a construction manager for almost 20 years in the DC area and now in NC, I've worked with thousands of subcontractors, workers, and crews and for the most part, at the field level, I usually can't tell which groups are union and which ones aren't. The majority of people in the field just want to do a good job, earn their check, and go home.
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I've been a construction manager for almost 20 years in the DC area and now in NC
Talk about a waste of money and driving up cost..
You knew i couldn't let that one fly..
nordawg
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You can blame the unions if you want, but really, who was the dope that agreed to it from the USPS Side of things. Takes two to tango..
This is another case of why government unions should be abolished. You have a union that promises the support of their membership to select politicians, who in return approve these outlandish contracts. When someone tries to point out this conflict of interest, they're labeled as union bashers who are against the working class.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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THIS is just another prime example of how unions have absolutely screwed this nation.
Unions screwed this nation? Really?....you are woefully misinformed...
you blaming the wrong people.....Unions actually "protect jobs"....go blame your Congressman, your Senator, Your President...they are the ones who put all the loopholes in place that left these companies ship all their jobs out of the country...not Unions....the dumping of cheap foreign steel(allowed by your wonderful elected reps) destroyed the steel industry in this country by not taxing imports to bring prices in line with prices made in this market...don';t blame the unions...your blame is misplaced....
Unions actually "sign contracts for jobs" which means the company can't just decide to one day kick you to the curb for no reason and pack shop to indonesia without paying the penatly for breaking a contract....
I swear this incessent hatred for unions is so far misplaced....so far misplaced...
Unions didn't screw anything with the Post Office, the Post Office hired way to many workers then they actually needed....that sjust bad management....if the pot Office only hired like 50% of their current staff they would be just fine...they hired too many people...thats not the union's fault...thats the post office fault...
email and such is not the end to all be....online shopping is all the crazy..."someone" has to deliver the packages....Fedex, etc are in no way structured to handle that kinda demand....just to give a ball park figure, the Post Office handles at least 60% of all the mail, the other players like FedEx, UPS, etc, they dive the other 40%...they are in no way able to handle that kinda demand..and they don't have the Fed's pocket book to provide the service for the same price...
folks on here complaing will be the first ones to grip when it takes 6 weeks to receive an order from Amazon and it costs 4 times as much to get it shipped with one of the other privates FedEx, etc...they will just raise prices through the roof if you get rid of the post office...the Post OFfice is needed...its a competitor in the market that keeps prices fair...
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Unions are outdated today.. they add an extra layer of cost and regulation that's just not needed in MOST cases.
who are you to decide Unions are not needed...I say this and i have never worked a union job in my life....
Many folks who are mad about unions are jealous because they may have better benefits and pay then others...whos fault is that? hmmm
If they want to get paid better then they can go find a union job, or try and get their shop union...and join together with their own workers to demand better wages....
wages have remained stagnant for decades...while corporate profits have done nothing but go up, and shareholder dividends payouts just get higher, and higher, and higher, and common working everyday non-union folk see their wages stay the same or decrease.....so Unions very much still have a place here.
Besides, your opinion is biased anyways Daman, You run a temp service...its in your benefit if they would get rid of unions so you could profit even more by supplying temp workers...so why should anyone here take your opinion on the matter when you clearlyhave an axe to grind...
just saying (no disrespect intended, i respct you as a man and an individual)
Im just tired of this mentality "if i can't have those wages or benefits, neither can anyone else"..its nonsense....if a person wants union wages, go find a union job or else shut up for crying out loud (Just a general statement, not pointed directly at you Daman)
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No, I'm not woefully misinformed.
I come from a union family, I know them quite well.
Don't get me wrong, unions have done a lot of good.... but they are also a massive drain on everything they touch.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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No, I'm not woefully misinformed.
I come from a union family, I know them quite well.
Don't get me wrong, unions have done a lot of good.... but they are also a massive drain on everything they touch.
Well thats fair enough, at least we can agree to disagree civil like
interesting discussion for sure.
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You have no idea of the irony dripping from your post, do you?
"Unions protect jobs..."........to the point they bankrupt the employer. But at least they can't be fired, right? Someone else will come up with the money....
"folks on here complaing will be the first ones to grip when it takes 6 weeks to receive an order from Amazon and it costs 4 times as much to get it shipped with one of the other privates FedEx, etc...they will just raise prices through the roof if you get rid of the post office...the Post OFfice is needed...its a competitor in the market that keeps prices fair..."
The United States Postal Service -and their lack of customer service, is EXACTLY why UPS and Fed Ex thrive.
If I absolutely, positively HAVE to have it overnight - I ain't calling the post office.
You said something about ordering something from amazon, and it taking 6 weeks for it to get here if someone uses Fed Ex or UPS? What???????? And it costs 4 times as much???? What?????
Where do you live.
I'll stop here, other than to say the post office got lazy as hell. They had guaranteed business, they had guaranteed "contracts". When the "guaranteed" business fell, they still had guaranteed contracts - WITH benefits, WITH retirement. And the post office can't hack it. They lost business, and they have no recourse other than to raise prices. Raise prices, for lesser work, all the while watching Fed Ex and UPS steal business, due to better service, and better rates.
And what does the "post office" do? Complain. Typical gov't. agency. Hey, work here, at high wages, retire at a young age with full benefits for life AND a pension...........ooops, we can't afford it.
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When ........WHEN are people going to get it?????
There is NO such thing as "work for 30 years, retire, and have the company/gov't. take care of you for the rest of your life.
Worked for a few decades - but it's now coming back to bite the asses, and the bite is going to be big. Doesn't matter what you/we do - the bite is coming.
Whoever came up with the "work for 30 years, be taken care of the rest of your life...."thing was crazy.
Whoever came up with the "once you sign here, you can't be fired for any reason" crap was stupid. And the people that still believe that crap are stupid.
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You said something about ordering something from amazon, and it taking 6 weeks for it to get here if someone uses Fed Ex or UPS? What???????? And it costs 4 times as much???? What?????
no I said if you "get rid of the Post Office" then that is EXACTLY what will happen.....you will pay more to have something shipped if you like it or not....
The Post Office is a public service...its not supposed to operate "for profit" its supposed to "break even"...if it wasn't for the Post Office you would be paying "far more" to have that package FedEx, UPS, etc...because of lack of a cheap competitor....
The goal of the UPS, FedEx, etc is to ship for the cheapest cost at the highest profit....the goal of the post office is to ship at the cost to ship...which means breaking even....there is a difference....
Look at Cellphones...as the smaller companies were ate up...we now have 3 major companies...Verizon, Sprint, and AT&T and prices have done nothing but go up....because they price collude together and set a market to charge you out the ying yang...
For exmaple:
i had AT&T in 2001...for unlimited data, 700 minutes, and 5000 text i was paying 86 bucks after taxes....for 2 lines...
today on Veriizon for the SAME THING with only 600 minutes im paying 156 after taxes....the prices are nearly identical on sprint and AT&T....look how much more folks are paying for the same service....
you put mailing in the hands of a private company i hope your prepared to pay out the wazoo for shipping....you think FedEx is high now...just wait if they get rid of the post office...the 1st thing they will do is raise rates through the roof...and UPS and the others will follow suit...a perfect price colluded market just like the cellphone companies....since there will be no post office...folks will have no choice but to pay whatever high price the "big 3" decide to charge....
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Sorry man, I disagree.
Plus, with competition, we'll see who survives. The post office couldn't. Too many promises to their employees, too man benefits, to much retiree pension and health care costs. The usps has no one to blame but themselves. They know it.
I don't care if they go to 1 day a week delivery. Since they can't get rid of employees due to the contract - they're still screwed.
UPS or FedEx, being a privately run, FOR profit business, has figured out a way to get it done.
The usps? Not so much.
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When ........WHEN are people going to get it?????
There is NO such thing as "work for 30 years, retire, and have the company/gov't. take care of you for the rest of your life.
Worked for a few decades - but it's now coming back to bite the asses, and the bite is going to be big. Doesn't matter what you/we do - the bite is coming.
Whoever came up with the "work for 30 years, be taken care of the rest of your life...."thing was crazy.
Whoever came up with the "once you sign here, you can't be fired for any reason" crap was stupid. And the people that still believe that crap are stupid.
I disagree...Take Verizon for exmaple and their recent Union Labor Dispute...
Those workers have paid "Millions" into the Pension fund....but Verizon doesn't have any money? thats hogwash
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http://www.nationofchange.org/verizon-struggle-striking-workers-1313163922
the company is requesting 20,000 dollars in givebacks from every employee,
meanwhile, According to the records, Verizon's CEO Ivan Seidenberg took home 81 million dollars in total compensation over the last four years, including huge benefits for himself and his family, effectively pocketing a wage 300 times the pay of the average worker. Overall, Verizon's top five executives earned 258 million dollars in the last half decade.
The Suits who do nothing take home 300 times the money the average Verizon worker does.....and these aren't bums...these guys are "skilled workers" these guys lay fiber, these guys are the ones who make the internet work....these are the guys who maintain everything that makes up the everyday life in the computer age....
They have no money for retirement benefits that these workers paid in, but they got 258 million to chunk out to their CEO, and other execs....not counting they money paid to shareholders....
oh well....go ahead and think these corps have no money...while they continue to chunk out millions to ceos and suits, and ship as many jobs as possible overseas.....
I sometimes think many of you want this country to be reduced to 3rd world status...i swear...
yours reps in Washington have done EVERYTHING to destroy American business and ship jobs out of here...Look at the chinese cheap steel dumping.....where is the government import taxes to keep prices competitive with American Steel? thats the governments job....poor trade agreements are what is killing this country and the dream of retiring...not unions or anyone else...
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When ........WHEN are people going to get it?????
There is NO such thing as "work for 30 years, retire, and have the company/gov't. take care of you for the rest of your life.
Worked for a few decades - but it's now coming back to bite the asses, and the bite is going to be big. Doesn't matter what you/we do - the bite is coming.
Whoever came up with the "work for 30 years, be taken care of the rest of your life...."thing was crazy.
Whoever came up with the "once you sign here, you can't be fired for any reason" crap was stupid. And the people that still believe that crap are stupid.
I disagree...Take Verizon for exmaple and their recent Union Labor Dispute...
Those workers have paid "Millions" into the Pension fund....but Verizon doesn't have any money? thats hogwash
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http://www.nationofchange.org/verizon-struggle-striking-workers-1313163922
the company is requesting 20,000 dollars in givebacks from every employee,
meanwhile, According to the records, Verizon's CEO Ivan Seidenberg took home 81 million dollars in total compensation over the last four years, including huge benefits for himself and his family, effectively pocketing a wage 300 times the pay of the average worker. Overall, Verizon's top five executives earned 258 million dollars in the last half decade.
The Suits who do nothing take home 300 times the money the average Verizon worker does.....and these aren't bums...these guys are "skilled workers" these guys lay fiber, these guys are the ones who make the internet work....these are the guys who maintain everything that makes up the everyday life in the computer age....
They have no money for retirement benefits that these workers paid in, but they got 258 million to chunk out to their CEO, and other execs....not counting they money paid to shareholders....
oh well....go ahead and think these corps have no money...while they continue to chunk out millions to ceos and suits, and ship as many jobs as possible overseas.....
I sometimes think many of you want this country to be reduced to 3rd world status...i swear...
yours reps in Washington have done EVERYTHING to destroy American business and ship jobs out of here...Look at the chinese cheap steel dumping.....where is the government import taxes to keep prices competitive with American Steel? thats the governments job....poor trade agreements are what is killing this country and the dream of retiring...not unions or anyone else...
Actually, I was talking about the post office.
However, your griping about verizon - brings up my point exactly.
NO COMPANY CAN EMPLOY PEOPLE FOR 30 YEARS AND THEN PAY THEM A PENSION AND HEALTH CARE FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!!!!!!
It just won't work - and, we are seeing that now. Throw in some stupid ass contract that says "we can't be fired or laid off......", and, kazaam - here we are.
You griping about a guy making millions as the ceo of a business. Check out your union bosses. Check out the postal service 'bosses'.
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..poor trade agreements are what is killing this country and the dream of retiring...not unions or anyone else...
The dream of retiring is not a dream. Save up - live well below your means. When you have enough, retire. If you don't have enough, keep working and save more.
The "dream" is "Oh, if I put in my 40 hours a week, for 25 or 30 years, someone else will pay for me when I retire." THAT, my friend, is the dream. Or nightmare.
That system just doesn't work - and we are seeing the fruits of that foible now. It's a freaking fantasy land where you think you can put in your hours, for your years, and then have someone else pay for your retirement. That system doesn't work. It's been proven, and is being proven today. Not feasible.
Can you show me where people are entitled to retire? Can you show me where people are entitled to retire after 25 or 30 years of work and have someone else pay their way?
Their is absolutely NO right to retire - at any age - unless you've put enough away to do so. You don't need to like it - but it's a fact.
Too many have, for too long, relied on others to pay their way after they get to whatever age.............even though they have spent every penny they earned and the "retire" with debts.
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The Suits who do nothing
This statement is every bit as misinformed as you say people are about unions.
I can take 1000 of the best union workers in the country and do you know how much money they will make? NOT A DIME. Without "the suits" making the deals, managing the business, working 60 hours per week.. those union guys would be sitting on their hands
yebat' Putin
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i had AT&T in 2001...for unlimited data, 700 minutes, and 5000 text i was paying 86 bucks after taxes....for 2 lines...
this has nothing to do with the vast increase in people with cell phones, with how people use their cell phones, and with the speed of those data plans, right? just evil corporations at work?
in 2001, cell phones were just becoming popular and the use of texting and data plans was minimal. now, it is more uncommon to not use these features and I know more people without landlines than without cell phones.
#gmstrong
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Arch i don't say much anymore because of posters that are so bias they can't see the other side and have no intention of even looking..
you keep mentioning 30 and out,, That's not quite the way it works with most construction unions...Ya you can retire with 30 BUT your age and time also has to equal 85. at least in my union...oh did i mention its also at 50% your pension you get at that age. and you will never get an increase.in order for you to get full benefits you have to work till the goverment retirement age and how many bricklayers do you see working at 66, but because you no longer are working you are paying your own insurance which for me is almost 800 dollars per month. thats about 40% of my take home. It used to be on a good year a bricklayer would get 12- 1500 hrs a yr. but around 95 or so they started tarping in, and quess what we all started braking down. and thats not just union that was everyone across the board..I have friends that are both union and non union in the trade. hell Ohio has been a right to work state for quite some time...Have i ever pushed that i was union on someone that was on the job that was non union...
Ask anyone i have ever worked with that was non union and they will tell you No..Then ask them if i treated them with respect and they will tell you Yes..I just feel when your attacking unions don't include all unions because they are not the same..
And i have worked inside a few GMs and have built 2 post offices and yes there is a total waste of money with employees, but construction isn't like that, they only use what they need to do the job...well thats more than i' ve said in the last 5 yrs.
nordawg
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
#gmstrong
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who are you to decide Unions are not needed...I say this and i have never worked a union job in my life....
Like Purp, I grew up in a union family so I understand the good very very well.
But unions (not the workers) have gotten so greedy that they are indeed adding to the misery in the US.
Look at the talks going on right now with the autoworkers. Ford, GM and Chrysler are fighting to climb out of a hole (not so much ford) and these guys are already asking for more more more. Is that the rank and file or is it the union leadership.
Even putting that aside, I'll admit whole heartedly that unions had a time and place in society. But with the laws that are now in place to protect the worker, they aren't anywhere as much in need.
I mean, that's just the way it is..
EDIT: Just found out via the news that GM settled with the union last night around 11pm. So maybe, just maybe, the union demands weren't as crazy as I was lead to believe.. we'll see
Last edited by Damanshot; 09/17/11 09:17 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Arch i don't say much anymore because of posters that are so bias they can't see the other side and have no intention of even looking..
I hope you aren't talking about me, but if you are, read on.
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you keep mentioning 30 and out,, That's not quite the way it works with most construction unions.
I wasn't speaking about construction unions....I wasn't speaking, honestly, about even most unions. I was speaking specifically to the post office, and in general way about the UAW, and also about - here in Ohio anyway - the public unions - teachers, cops, firemen, gov't. workers, city workers, etc.
See, for most of them, it's 30 years - full retirement with pension and health care. If they work more than 30, their pension goes up when the do retire, and of course, if they work less than 30, their pension decreases from what a "full" pension is/was.
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..Ya you can retire with 30 BUT your age and time also has to equal 85. at least in my union...oh did i mention its also at 50% your pension you get at that age. and you will never get an increase.in order for you to get full benefits you have to work till the goverment retirement age and how many bricklayers do you see working at 66, but because you no longer are working you are paying your own insurance which for me is almost 800 dollars per month. thats about 40% of my take home. It used to be on a good year a bricklayer would get 12- 1500 hrs a yr. but around 95 or so they started tarping in, and quess what we all started braking down. and thats not just union that was everyone across the board..I have friends that are both union and non union in the trade. hell Ohio has been a right to work state for quite some time...Have i ever pushed that i was union on someone that was on the job that was non union...
Ask anyone i have ever worked with that was non union and they will tell you No..Then ask them if i treated them with respect and they will tell you Yes..I just feel when your attacking unions don't include all unions because they are not the same..
Again, I'm not attacking all unions. I was specifically attacking the post office and the public employee unions, and in general, a few others (uaw for one). NOT all unions are screwing people over - but just enough do.
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And i have worked inside a few GMs and have built 2 post offices and yes there is a total waste of money with employees, but construction isn't like that, they only use what they need to do the job...well thats more than i' ve said in the last 5 yrs.
nordawg
Again - re-read and see who I was "attacking" (actually, attacking isn't the proper word.)
The public unions (here in ohio, if you're a county commissioner for 10 years, you get a pension, PLUS health care for the rest of your life), teachers - put in 30 years, you're in, in full - no, you don't make 100% of your last years wages in pension - but close enough. My mom taught for 37 plus years - she makes now, in pension, just about what she did in her last year of teaching, plus health care - although she now is old enough for medicare.
My whole point is, the system cannot handle that. It's obvious to anyone that looks into it.
Specifically - look at the post office. That's what this was about, anyway. They are hampered by decreased sales, and a contract that says they can't lay anyone off after - what was it, 6 years? 8 years? Something like that - anyway, the post office is basically bankrupt. Yes, the management that agreed to the contract was stupid - but the union that is not saying "hey, something's gotta give" is stupid as well
I don't know much at all about construction unions, and from your statement, I take it there are many, and each has their own rules. I DO know my neighbor is in a construction union. He'll get full retirement at age 55, with health care. At least according to him.
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Unfortunately the post office is stuck operating like we are still in pre-internet years. This has been discussed on this board before. Some ideas to cut this black whole of money:
1) Privatize it.
2) Reduce delivery to 3 days per week, that is plenty. Anything that is truly time sensitive is emailed at this point. 6 days a week of mail delivery is just a complete waste of money - some days all I have in my mail is junk mail that goes straight to the trash. Did I really need to have that junk mail that very day?
3) Everyone must have a box at the end of the driveway or no delivery. No more on foot carriers, that is a huge waste of time and money.
4) If you live in a rural area, you will collect your mail at a centralized location. Driving miles from one box to another is ridiculous.
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Unfortunately the post office is stuck operating like we are still in pre-internet years. This has been discussed on this board before. Some ideas to cut this black whole of money:
1) Privatize it.
2) Reduce delivery to 3 days per week, that is plenty. Anything that is truly time sensitive is emailed at this point. 6 days a week of mail delivery is just a complete waste of money - some days all I have in my mail is junk mail that goes straight to the trash. Did I really need to have that junk mail that very day?
3) Everyone must have a box at the end of the driveway or no delivery. No more on foot carriers, that is a huge waste of time and money.
4) If you live in a rural area, you will collect your mail at a centralized location. Driving miles from one box to another is ridiculous.
CDawg for postmaster general! 
#gmstrong
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Unfortunately the post office is stuck operating like we are still in pre-internet years. This has been discussed on this board before. Some ideas to cut this black whole of money:
1) Privatize it.
2) Reduce delivery to 3 days per week, that is plenty. Anything that is truly time sensitive is emailed at this point. 6 days a week of mail delivery is just a complete waste of money - some days all I have in my mail is junk mail that goes straight to the trash. Did I really need to have that junk mail that very day?
3) Everyone must have a box at the end of the driveway or no delivery. No more on foot carriers, that is a huge waste of time and money.
4) If you live in a rural area, you will collect your mail at a centralized location. Driving miles from one box to another is ridiculous.
CDawg for postmaster general!
I agree - although I disagree somewhat with #4. I'm "rural" - but in my 1 mile long road, there are about 13 houses. That's hardly driving "miles" from one box to another. And it's not like every road around here is different. Yes, behind me there is absolutely nothing but fields and woods for 1 mile.........
However, if that makes the post office better/more efficient, I'd be all for it. I'm in town everyday anyway, and the mail I get is no different than the mail others get - most of it is junk.
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1) Privatize it.
How do stamps work at that point?
Does an individual company or group of companies decide on the rate?
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3) Everyone must have a box at the end of the driveway or no delivery. No more on foot carriers, that is a huge waste of time and money.
4) If you live in a rural area, you will collect your mail at a centralized location. Driving miles from one box to another is ridiculous.
What about big cities?
Having everyone in Chicago or New York neighborhoods go to a central location to get their mail would be a logistical nightmare.
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The one big problem that I see wrong with allowing the USPS to fail is that UPS and Fedex pricing would skyrocket without the USPS to compete with.
I'd rather see it privatize so that the competition factor remains.. The problem with privatizing it is that the only two companies (that I can think of) that have both the wherewithall to purchase and the expertise to successfully operate it are UPS and Fedex.
either way, you end up with one less competitor so we are back to my first point of the USPS failing.
JMO
Last edited by Damanshot; 09/17/11 02:26 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Ok Arch now i can agree with some of where your coming from. I have no problem with 30 and out IF they are under the understanding that their pension will be reduced a certain % and never raised and they are responsible for cobra payments for insurance...And when they are eligable for medicare their insurance is done...I suppose they could offer a supplamental insurance for retires to take care of the 20% that medicare doesn't pay, but they have to pay for it...I pay for mine its included in the 800 a month but i also pay my Medicare payment and my precription payment each monthit all totals about 950 a month..I see no problem with other people paying there own way....Maybe they should run things more as a business and there would be less waste. I've talked to much now and i haven't even gotten into sending 10 people 2 backhoe and 3 trucks to dig a 4 ft ditch..
The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
#gmstrong
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Ok Arch now i can agree with some of where your coming from. I have no problem with 30 and out IF they are under the understanding that their pension will be reduced a certain % and never raised and they are responsible for cobra payments for insurance...And when they are eligable for medicare their insurance is done...I suppose they could offer a supplamental insurance for retires to take care of the 20% that medicare doesn't pay, but they have to pay for it...I pay for mine its included in the 800 a month but i also pay my Medicare payment and my precription payment each monthit all totals about 950 a month..I see no problem with other people paying there own way....Maybe they should run things more as a business and there would be less waste. I've talked to much now and i haven't even gotten into sending 10 people 2 backhoe and 3 trucks to dig a 4 ft ditch..
Just a dumb question here. 30 and out may mean that a person is out before they reach the age where Medicare kicks in. How are they covered in the interim? Just asking..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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