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Having been somewhat of a mystery to this point I thought itd be a worthy topic.
the use of Hillis was a good effort this past week save for the use of Hardesty on the goal line. However, upon deeper thought about the choice of using Hardesty at that point, I warmed up to the idea and think it could have provided greta value.
If Hardesty gets into the end zone it buoys his confidence and then his future use comes with more success. Confidence is big for our team, and especially in a 2nd year RB who is essentially a rookie. It was a good low risk, mini-sample chance to boost our running game.
That being said...outside of those things...our use of the running game has been to
a) gain 1-3 yards in a 2nd or 3rd and short to move the chains
b) run down the clock late in games
c) keep defenses honest
and not much else.
I feel like our running game, especially with Hillis should be used more to set up the pass...we havent used many playaction plays and have used no draw plays. (sorry one, where Hillis barely took the handoff late in the game against Cincy where he didnt move til McCoy got to him...the problem was so did Carlos Dunlap and Artis Hicks being pushed back into him).
I feel like Shurmur needs to commit to the use of the running game to move the ball down the field.
Hillis should be used almost exclusively outside the 20s. Hardesty should be used for carries between the 20s especially getting out to the edge, and Armond should be given carries between the 20s late in games after heavy doses of Hillis to hit em with speed and danger to break out.
I'd love to see Hillis and Armond get the bulk of the carries with Hardesty used to spell him. I wouldnt use Smith in situations where he needs to block, but maybe to chip and get out on a route.
Whats ur thoughtso n our running game...how should Shurmur improve it? Can we get a Smith sighting beyond gunning kicks and punts?
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In this type of offense I would like to see a switch to a faster running back. Using Smith or even Cribbs in a Michael Westbrook type role would be my solution. I would like to have a very fast running back as the starter with Hillis for red zone pounding.
For now I would only change the red zone offense. I would run 90% of the time, Hillis behind Pinkston and Mack. The passing game isn't refined enough to be worthwhile in the RZ...but Hillis seems to be working pretty well.
I would like to see way more screens to Cribbs and Little.
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I think it was Mack who said in an interview, that the offense has mainly had to work on getting the passing game in [learned] and that they really haven't had a lot of time to work on their run game, because of the short time frame they have had, so my guess is that we will be a work in progress still there.
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I like the idea of Hardesty AND Hillis in the spread backfield. Power I and lead blocker are effective, but not a lot of keys for D to focus on. Hillis has a tendency to run into the stack rather than bounce cleanly at times. A Byner-Mack tandem (or someone faster to outside ) is a nightmare for folks to cover by comparison. I do not think we have nearly as much in and game-ready as we will by bye week. But I think we should use Hillis heavily (20 to 30 touches per game) while we throw responsibly. 
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i have a feeling they are working hardesty in SLOWLY. a couple touches in game 1, a couple in game 2. increase them slowly as the year goes on
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Quote:
i have a feeling they are working hardesty in SLOWLY. a couple touches in game 1, a couple in game 2. increase them slowly as the year goes on
just don't make those goalline touches up the middle please.
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I think that Shurmur is just trying to figure out what each guy can do.
The only RB/FB who was on the active roster last year is Hillis. We hardly ran the ball at all with the starters in the pre-season. They have zero tape on anyone else as a pro. They need to work them in and see what they can do.
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yeah i cringed when he took that HUGE hit.
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that's fine. but, really, does a RBs first 2 carries need to be on the goalline in a crucial situation? does he need to stay out there for the 2nd carry when he was crushed on the first one?
get him a couple carries in the middle of the field first and also try a run on the edge.
that was my biggest complaint from Shurmur's game management last week.
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I thought that too at first...
If he got in though that wouldve been huge for Hardesty.
Secondly, after that huge first hit...for him to rebound and run hard and maybe get in becomes VERY big for Hardesty and his confidence...sadly it didnt work out that way...but I wanna say that was the reasoning behind it and wouldve been great had he got in. Since he didnt that becomes a different story and the narrative we have now.
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i wouldn't have complained if he got in (obviously), but i still don't like the first carries a RB gets during a game down near the goalline.
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i wouldn't have complained if he got in (obviously), but i still don't like the first carries a RB gets during a game down near the goalline.
I agree that it's not the ideal way to bring your backup RB into the games first action unless there was a reason why Hillis needed a break.
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I dunno.
Like others have said ... maybe because it would have been a huge boost to his confidence to score?
I have had a lot of questions about the playcalling. Sometimes it seems like Shurmur is still using a pre-season mindset, where he is trying things in game conditions to see whether or not they work.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Quote:
Quote:
i wouldn't have complained if he got in (obviously), but i still don't like the first carries a RB gets during a game down near the goalline.
I agree that it's not the ideal way to bring your backup RB into the games first action unless there was a reason why Hillis needed a break.
that was actually my first thought while watching the game. but, they showed Hillis on the sidelines with what looked like him pacing to get back into the game.
(in all honesty, this being one of my biggest issues with Shurmur last week means he did a fairly good job in my eyes)
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Quote:
Having been somewhat of a mystery to this point I thought itd be a worthy topic.
the use of Hillis was a good effort this past week save for the use of Hardesty on the goal line. However, upon deeper thought about the choice of using Hardesty at that point, I warmed up to the idea and think it could have provided greta value.
If Hardesty gets into the end zone it buoys his confidence and then his future use comes with more success. Confidence is big for our team, and especially in a 2nd year RB who is essentially a rookie. It was a good low risk, mini-sample chance to boost our running game.
That being said...outside of those things...our use of the running game has been to
a) gain 1-3 yards in a 2nd or 3rd and short to move the chains
b) run down the clock late in games
c) keep defenses honest
and not much else.
I feel like our running game, especially with Hillis should be used more to set up the pass...we havent used many playaction plays and have used no draw plays. (sorry one, where Hillis barely took the handoff late in the game against Cincy where he didnt move til McCoy got to him...the problem was so did Carlos Dunlap and Artis Hicks being pushed back into him).
I feel like Shurmur needs to commit to the use of the running game to move the ball down the field.
Hillis should be used almost exclusively outside the 20s. Hardesty should be used for carries between the 20s especially getting out to the edge, and Armond should be given carries between the 20s late in games after heavy doses of Hillis to hit em with speed and danger to break out.
I'd love to see Hillis and Armond get the bulk of the carries with Hardesty used to spell him. I wouldnt use Smith in situations where he needs to block, but maybe to chip and get out on a route.
Whats ur thoughtso n our running game...how should Shurmur improve it? Can we get a Smith sighting beyond gunning kicks and punts?
What i saw vs the Colts.
1) better blocking from the Fullback Marecic.
2) Hardesty given the ball right after the fumble to regain his confidence.
3) an over reliance on Hillis again.
I would like to see some reverses to Cribbs and a pitch to cribbs as well.
More Quick screens to cribbs and to Hardesty.
Some traps and draws and some shovel passes.
I did notice often the colts would let hillis release clean when faked the run only to catch some nice passes. yet he needs HELP.
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I think someone said it.. But it almost feels as if the Browns (shurmur) are bringing Hardesty along slowly..Let him build up to more and more action and making sure he's 100% up to speed with the system and his health.. My hope is that sometime in the near future, Hardesty will get the opportunity for a break out game.
That may explain hardesty, but I don't understand not trying to use Smith... That one I don't have an answer for,
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I am pleasantly surprised even with the cameo appearances by hardesty. Hillis needs help so pitches to Smith may be needed as well I agree so work him into the gameplan. I hope Hardesty gets some edge runs as well.
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Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has brought up this particular angle: One thing that is bugging me so far about the running plays Shurmur calls is that there have been *very* few runs outside the tackles. The 24 yard TD run by Hillis in the Colts game was the only one I remember seeing- for Hillis, that is. I know Cribbs ran outside once or twice on a draw or pitch out or something.
The point is, if you look back over last season, Hillis was practically unstoppable running to the outside and was virtually guaranteed 5 yards every time. So for whatever reason, both Shurmur this year, and even Daboll for the latter part of last year, seem to hardly give the outside run a thought. It's up the middle every freakin' time. It's almost like they're more interested in trying to make Hillis look like a total badass by blowing up blockers instead of gaining some damn yards. Don't forget- Hillis blows up blocks with even more devestation if he gets a running start! Not to mention that defenses obviously key into that up-the-middle-every-time stuff pretty quickly. You HAVE to mix up the run plays.
I do agree with the previous poster that Cribbs should be utilized more on pitch outs or reverses as well.
Someone also mentioned giving Smith a shot late in games. It would make all the sense in the world to spell Hillis in the 4th quarter with a speedster when the D is getting tired.
Anyway- bottom line is that outside running plays for the Browns, and Hillis in particular, have produced results nearly every time. So why is it used seemingly only 10-15% of the time? I think it should be more like 70/30 inside to outside- or even 60/40. Gotta mix more outside runs in.
PS- I'm not sold on Marecic as a fullback. I've seen him not be able to create a hole- and then basically be in Hillis's way, a good handful of times now. I miss Vickers.
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i understand the philosophy; hillis is a beast so just run him straight at the defense, but he's agile enough to handle outside runs as he's proven time and again. I agree and hope the coaching staff mixes up the run plays so the defense doesn't have to just collapse the middle. I really think we hurt ourselves against indy that way, they aren't the best against the run but they sent a ton of bodies right up the middle to slow hillis down. When we went outside we had success. Always keep the D guessing 
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Hillis is best used running between the tackles, because his best assets do not include 'speed' (the Colts defense is predicated on speed too) and he less effective running East and West. With that said I think we do need to mix it up more in our running game. Weather that's with Hillis or another RB.
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Td40, last year we had one of the best pulling guards in the NFL in Steinbach and he was no small part of that success. Also, vickers was good at staying in front of the runner which helped out as well. In the colts game, the only other outside run I can remember was right before the strip sack when Hillis didn't follow pinkston around the corner and just went right at the corner. Should have been a first down.
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Td40, last year we had one of the best pulling guards in the NFL in Steinbach and he was no small part of that success. Also, vickers was good at staying in front of the runner which helped out as well. In the colts game, the only other outside run I can remember was right before the strip sack when Hillis didn't follow pinkston around the corner and just went right at the corner. Should have been a first down.
I think that was the same play that Hillis later scored his 24 yard TD on.
We got real lucky on that play, because JT was pushed back into Lauvao's pulling lane and he and Hillis made contact, but the two defenders pursuing on that side where in the backfield and Lauvao was able to turn them both back and that allowed Hillis to take the corner and rumble his way in for the TD, with the help of Robiskie's block. I don't think that's the way it was drawn up, but it's in the books.
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Hillis is best used running between the tackles, because his best assets do not include 'speed' (the Colts defense is predicated on speed too) and he less effective running East and West. With that said I think we do need to mix it up more in our running game. Weather that's with Hillis or another RB.
Yeah, he's not the fastest- but we'll have to agree to disagree about whether he's effective running east-west. Like I said in my original post, it seems like he's very consistent in gaining yards when he runs to the outside. Has he ever been stopped behind the LOS doing that? Yeah, of course. But it seems to me like they had considerable success using him that way several times last year. Another factor in the outside-the-tackles run game is that, with Hillis, speed doesn't necessarily have to be a huge part of it, because he kind of makes up for that in bulk and momentum. Who's gonna be harder to bring down with a tackle- a 205 lb scatback or a 250 lb battering ram who has already gotten a 5-yard running start, no matter what direction he's running.
I agree with you. They wanna run him through the middle and he's a back that can have a lot of success doing that. But the results speak for themselves, and the Browns have, much more often than not, had success running him to the outside. They just don't do it very much at all.
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Much of it has to do with the game plan and how you want to attack a given defense.
Smaller and faster defenses I think most OC will chose to run right at them and less pulling off tackle.
This seemed to be the route we took last Sunday vs. the Colts and I think I could see us attacking the edges more this week vs.Miami.
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