DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A different QB thread

We have bashed to death "How good (or bad) of a QB do we HAVE", and we've been doing it for a long, long time. I would like to ask "How good of a QB do we NEED?" How good is good enough?

Frank Ryan, Bill Nelson, Brian Sipe, Bernie Kosar. All good, but not great, QBs.
All winners, but only one champion, of which that, and Otto Graham, were before my time.

Much has been said about the "game manager", somebody decent but not great, who won't screw up and lose the game, but can't win it by himself, either. Somebody just slightly above average.

Is that good enough? Can we, in perhaps just one more draft, put together enough of a defense, and offensive support, to win with Average Joe? OK I mean win MORE that year and seriously challenge the next year, and for many years after.

I look at the Colts, Peyton-less, the Dolpins with Marino, and IMO we need a complete team, not so much a superstar QB.

I look at two #1's, a #2, and a pair of #4's, which might get us Andrew Luck, but which could also get us a top-ten NFL-talent DE, AND a very good LB, plus a cornerback, a Right tackle, and a decent WR. If Colt has to go, grab a free-agent vet and start training up Lewis, or use the 3rd rounder I skipped to pick up a new, young QB.

Since we haven't been able to find The Guy, maybe we've been looking for the wrong guy?

watch Aaron Rogers. I saw him in pre-season. He reads deep to short. Colt seems to read short to deep.

In this day and age,you can't win with a "average qb".
The days of Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer managing a game are really over with.
This has become a passing league. Getting the ball vertical and loosening up defenses.
They are throwing the ball to set up the run.
In Kosars and Sipes day it was the opposite.
totally different era now.

Mark Sanchez was in the AFC Championship two years in a row.

you mean to say "the only way you can win with an average QB is a team with excellent defense and a solid running game, and a little bit of luck."

Quote:

---

You might win a battle here and there playing old school run-heavy football but you won't win the whole thing anymore like that

---

Isn't that how the Giants won the Super Bowl in 2007? Against one of the most prolific passing teams of all time.

Sanchez is above average. He's better than Colt McCoy.
The Jets front office did him no favors by letting Edwards and Smith walk.
Santonio Holmes is not a #1 WR..

Frank Ryan was a math nerd (phd), so having a big brain was a huge plus.

When, at any point in his career, has Sanchez been above-average?

Sanchez is below AVG to bad (20th to 28th best QB), Colt is bad to horrible (24th to 32nd)

and Eli Manning had a pretty impressive year they won the SB...remember the helmet catch? the Giants aren't and never were a smash mouth football team. We tried it along with OAK, KC and MIA, who still try it somewhat but even those teams pass much more this season....even contenders like PIT, CHI, ATL have done a 180 and went from run heavy to now pass heavy Offenses

Rules have changed, you get BS PI flags for every minimal contact when the ball is in the air...it's simply much more efficient to pass the ball these days

I agree though that it's ruining the game a bit...I would like more physicality allowed in WR/DB matchups

Sanchez actually has been pretty good in the playoffs.

Then he goes back to below average play the next year.

Superior QB play and a top 10 scoring defense are the route to the playoffs and the Super Bowl.

Do you really think that Colt could be the WORST starting QB in the NFL?

Guys I would without a doubt take Colt over ...

Chad Henne - Been in the league long enough I know what I have in him, and it's not good.

Mark Sanchez - Same as Chad Henne. Put Colt on the Jets, and they are still in the AFC Title game the last two years.

Curtis Painter - Just plain awful

Donovan McNabb - Currently. I realize McNabb had a good career, but he's toast.

Alex Smith - Same as Chad Henne and Mark Sanchez. I KNOW what I have in Smith. He's not an NFL QB.

Tavaris Jackson - Again, same as Henne, Sanchez, and Smith.


Then there are guys that you can't judge one way or the other, like Cam Newton and Blaine Gabbert.

Then there are guys that you could argue that you'd rather have Colt over right now, like Rex Grossman and Matt Cassel.

Then there are guys that you can argue that Colt has a chance to eventually be better than, like Joe Flacco and Kevin Kolb.


But to hint that it's possible to rank Colt at #32 in the NFL?

That you think he COULD be #32.

He's NO WORSE than #26.

Currently tied for #24. 17th in passing yards.

Somewhere around #20 is my current minimum decision point, if some upside is believed to be there. #15 or better is a target, IMO he does not have to be Top 5 or even Top 10. Just better than average.

Chad Henne is Colt McCoy, only he throws the ball down the field.He is largely inaccurate with the longer throws,and lacks and elite arm.

Mark Sanchez is the guy with all the tools except upstairs. He has closer to an elite arm, but still hasn't managed to put it all together. He reminds me a bit of DA in a way. he will reel off 3 or 4 really good throws and then one that makes the coaching staff pull their hair out.

Curtis Painter is a 3rd sting QB. Hopefully our starter is better than a 3rd string QB.

Accepting your conclusions McCoy is still fighting it out at the bottom of the NFL.

and were back to bashing Colt...

No, it's assessing Colt...and this thread is about QB potential...I've said many times that I don't think it's worth the time if his upside is NFL AVG at best (I don't see even that in him)...I want a legit NFL franchise QB prospect...those go 90+% in the 1st, so if we want to have a decent shot at landing one, that's the way to go....we have 2 1sts coming up, it's a good opportunity to land one....if we AGAIN defer this decision because we want to give McCoy "more time" we're doing the DA, Frye, Quinn-mistake all over again...meanwhile look at the QBs we let go "to see" if DA, Frye and Quinn are for real..again, Colt's better than those we had before but not enough better compared to the league to make a significant jump

Aaron Rodgers 2011 Superbowl champ
Drew Brees 2010 Superbowl champ
Ben Roethlisberger 2009 Superbowl champ
Eli Manning 2008 Superbowl champ
Peyton Manning 2007 Superbowl champ
Ben Roethlisberger 2006 Superbowl champ
Tom Brady 2005 Superbowl champ
Tom Brady 2004 Superbowl champ
Brad Johnson 2003 Superbowl champ
Tom Brady 2002 Superbowl champ
Trent Dilfer 2001 Superbowl champ
Kurt Warner 2000 Superbowl champ
John Elway 1999 Superbowl champ
Johmn Elway 1998 Superbowl champ
Brett Favre 1997 Superbowl champ
Troy Aikman 1996 Superbowl champ
Steve Young 1995 superbowl champ
Troy Aikman 1994 Superbowl champ
Troy Aikman 1993 Superbowl champ


In the last 19 years there have been exactly two QB's who were game managers and not franchise qb's who have won the superbowl. I hope that answers your question.

And here's a list of AFC champion quarterbacks over the last 9 years:

Tom Brady
Ben R.
Peyton Manning

That's it. The only really surprising thing about this list is that Rivers isn't on it. That tends to happen when you fire your head coach after a 14-2 season

Since Django mentioned Cassel as one of the QB's he'd take Colt over, I went to NFL.com and checked something out.. in 2008 (his last year w NE) his stats are absolutely comparable to Rodgers 2010 year at GB.

The point is.. Cassel was playing with a much better team than he is now. More talent and better coached. That makes a difference.

Comparing QB's without looking at the context of what they have to work with doesn't make much sense. Nor is it fair.

not just Django, but all:

I don't want either, they both haven't been good.

Who cares about ranking? There are three categories:

1) Great (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Stafford, Turd Rivers)
2) Good Enough (Freeman, Cutler, Ryan, E. Manning, Fitzpatrick, Roethlisberger, Flacco, Vick, Schaub)
3) Not good enough (everybody else)

Both Sanchez and McCoy at this point are "Not good enough"

Um, we have taken two first round QB's since we have been back and those haven't worked out too well either (along with many other 1st round QB choices by other teams in the last decade). And while I would love a franchise/Super Bowl QB, at this point I would be happy to just make the playoffs/ compete for them consistently and that can be done by having a good team and average type game manager QB. We have so many holes that wasting yet another first round pick on a QB that may or may not pan out is exactly that, a waste. I want to see us draft a #1 receiver, RT, OLB, DB, and DE way before we ever think of using a first round pick on a QB. And if after we have built an actual team we still find Colt to be sucktacular, then go out and draft a QB that you can plug into a team that has talent to cover for any miscues/learning curve.

Looking at Colt...and we're talking about what he needs to be for us to be successful.

He needs to be decisive. He needs to be a QB that is decisive in his drop backs...

Right now, to expect that from him isnt a good idea. He is working with a WR that had no preseason. 2 WRs that as of 4 years ago, werent WRs. 1 of those was a RB 3 years ago, 2 years ago was a WR for the first time ever, and last year was a spectator. 1 was a QB who is in his 7th year, 4th as a WR, and 2nd as a WR that is being used as a consistent threat in the offense. and a WR that has been a WR forever, but for some reason isnt able to really get it done, but id say give it time, he hasnt been in a WCO before. so...4 WRs that havent been in the WCO before, and 2 of which that have less than 5 years experience playing the WR position in their entire lives.
He has 3 TEs that have all done their jobs for years (Moore for fewer), and one of which gets split out wide and plays WR at times (a position he hasnt played before in a scheme he hasnt played before).

It's very very hard to expect Colt to make quick, decisive strong decisions with his guys consistently. At times? yes...but every time? no. Which is what were seeing.

So what we need from Colt at QB, is to improve as a decision maker...in a few ways. He needs to make quicker decisions on his dropbacks, to set his feet and throw to an open guy (NFL open), and make smarter decisions (not the throw to Babineaux).

We need Colt to set his feet better. He hasnt set his feet very often and that has led to a lot of errant throws. A couple of reasons for that id imagine is that when he sees a guy NFL open, its at a time where the ball should have been out a little sooner, so he tries to get it out as quick as possible to make up for the late throw, leading to errant throws. Adjusting to a pass rush from what has been a suspect pass blocking line so far.


Those 2 things will eliminate a lot of what has made Colt a subpar passer to this point. But that isnt all...


Colt needs to make more and better (or perhaps a better word would be any) pre-snap reads. I dont know why we havent seen him adjusting things at the LOS but its strange. It seems as though he is leaving the protections exclusively on the OL, which shows he still doesnt grasp the offense completely. He must be focused on the routes, and knowing where his guys will be, not where the defense will be attacking his OL.

If he can grasp that and gather that he will make his OL better, something he hasnt done to this point, and he hasnt audibled, which will make the team better...something he hasnt done yet.

And for a player that is facing all of these uphill climbs...man thats a lot to expect.



Debunking a couple things:

Cam Newton has looked better...Yes thats true, reason being. He has a team that is largely the same as the previous year. Chud runs less of a system and more of a style. His guys run routes and its not all based on timing. this makes Newton's job easier because he just has to read what his guys are doing, rather than where will they be at a certain time. Has he done better than Colt? yes...but he has a shallower learning curve.

Blaine Gabbert is playing in an established system. He's playing with guys that have been here and all know what is happening on O.

Freeman has 3 years in his system

Painter has 3 years in his system

Henne has 3 years with all his guys, cept Marshall who he has 2 years with

Rodgers and Brady entered into a system with all the guys that were there before, plus he has years to learn the system.

Dalton has entered into a system with all but 1 player being the same...different playcalling system, but everyone else was there, save for AJ Green who is a difference maker.

Colt is working with 2 and a half new OL starters, and a rookie WR...


So what we need from Colt...is to progress. Learn, not only about the system, but about his guys, and the defenses he is facing.

I disagree with you completely.

Theres a difference between a Mark Sanchez coming in and "not losing the game" while having the best Defense and Running game in the league.

As Opposed to Tom Brady coming in and WINNING a Super Bowl.

Did it HELP that he landed in NE? Sure.

But to say someone like Brady, or Rothlisberger would NEVER be anythign without the specific team is ridiculous.

This brings in the Tim Couch argument.. I think Couch was actually pretty good.. but behind Cleveland's oline.. he suffered tremendously..

He was talented. But so is Brady Quinn. He got us to the Playoffs yes (with Holcomb) But I never saw "Top 10 QB" when I watched Couch.

I think you're missing my point.

I'm not saying there's no difference between Sanchez or Brady, or that if Brady didn't end up in NE he was going to flop.

My point was -- the majority of those QB's listed came into a fortunate situation. That doesn't mean that they lucked out, necessarily ... but rather that they came into an established system. The majority of those teams built viable systems with solid talent, and then plugged in a QB.

That doesn't mean that the QB got lucky, or any guy could've been plugged in there ... but it's an observable pattern, yes?

And why do you think it's ridiculous to speculate that if Brady landed with the Browns, he would be out of football? Do you believe that if we had drafted him over Wynn, he would've turned the team around?

Nicely done King. And FWIW, I agree 100% with you as to what we're seeing here.

Oh ok, I thought you were making a cut and dry "If they were somewhere else they'd suck" type of statement...

Quote:

---

And why do you think it's ridiculous to speculate that if Brady landed with the Browns, he would be out of football? Do you believe that if we had drafted him over Wynn, he would've turned the team around?

---

Because someone AS talented as Brady would of made the players around him better, it's not like he was playing with superstars in NE when he first started.

and, to be fair, neither was he for those first 2 superbowl runs. he was a game-manager that had an uncanny knack for those late 4th quarter drives.

Since the thread has reached the "what if" section:

...anybody thinks McCoy would have even 1 start for any other team at this point? If we don't take him, he's a 4th or 5th round QB investment for someone else

Really, think about it...he landed in a pretty good spot "opportunity" wise imho...he would be a backup or 3rd stringer on over 90% of other team's rosters

Hmm, and Brady didn't? I mean, if Bledsoe doesn't go down with that injury, we would have never heard of Tom Brady. The NFL is all about opportunity.

That being said, nothing you have said justifies us taking another gamble on yet another QB until the rest of our team has actual talent at each position. We simply suck in too many areas to waste picks on high round QB's right now.

Quote:

---

But to say someone like Brady, or Rothlisberger would NEVER be anythign without the specific team is ridiculous.

---

Evidently you haven't seen Ben this year. With no Oline he is horrible. He is overthrowing receivers, throwing picks, and has fumbled many many times so far. If Ben would have been on the same team as Couch, he would be done already just like Couch.

probably Seattle, San Fran, Arizona, Minnesota, Indy, cincy, Miami Possibly Philly and Dallas, Carolina...

This is kind of a silly question. If he was drafted by another team in the 3rd-5th round he would have gotten a shot last year or this whether it be due to terrible quarterback situations or injuries.