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Regardless of what we see out of McCoy the rest of this year...We SHOULD do everything we can to secure Luck in this draft...Even if it costs BOTH 2012 First's AND our 2013 First...Luck is THAT damn solid and has a HIGH possibility of being a STUD QB in this league...
He's one of these few rare QB's that come into the NFL...He possesses EVERYTHING to be a STUD...Nowhere near the failures from high first rounders like Russell/Couch/Smith and Smith...And on and on and on...All of the failed QB's lacked something coming out...Whether it be physical or Intangible related...Luck has EVERYTHING...
Problem is...
Every team minus Carolina that flat out SUCKS is in dire need of a QB...They won't trade out of the 1 slot...
But...IF...And I mean IF...If we r lucky enuff to get the 2 pick and Carolina has the 1 pick...We can easily get them to drop 1 slot...We take Luck and I don';t care if McCoy lights it up the rest of the year...And this is why...
From a FAN view we need to understand that Holmgren and Heckert and possibly even Shurmer will not be here forever...It's a known FACT that McCoy is NOT best suited to a Vertical Style Offense...His best chances are in a WCO...Short to mid range high accuracy routes...
Enter a new HC...Enter a new Vertical Style Offense...With McCoy we're lookin' for a new QB...With Luck we're SET regardless of what Offense we run...And I've got a feeling that Luck will be around ALOT longer than Holmgren and Heckert...
Go Browns!!!
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Since we have so many holes we could fill I think I'd rather keep the picks myself. One stud does not a team make. Everyone should watch the OU/Texas game today and take a look at Landry Jones, he's not Luck but he's not bad and he'll come a heck of a lot cheaper in terms of picks unless we happen to the hold the 1st overall. Of course if Landry stinks the joint up, forget I said anything. 
#GMSTRONG
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it's Luck talk in other threads.. is this necessary?? especially after only 4 games? 
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I'll tell you why we should not.
The reason this team has been bad for many years is because we constantly missed on early draft picks year after year. We finally have a few drafts where it looks so far that we have some keepers, but we still have many holes.
As good as Luck seems to be he is not guaranteed to be a HOF type player. Trading so many picks (which it will take a lot) will not be a wise choice because we need those picks.
If we are there and can take him, then it's a no brainer. But with our team we need to keep hitting on picks and increase the talent level and depth of this team.
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I agree DinD...I'd offer the three first rounders and see what happens.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Regardless of what we see out of McCoy the rest of this year...We SHOULD do everything we can to secure Luck in this draft...Even if it costs BOTH 2012 First's AND our 2013 First...Luck is THAT damn solid and has a HIGH possibility of being a STUD QB in this league...
He's one of these few rare QB's that come into the NFL...He possesses EVERYTHING to be a STUD...Nowhere near the failures from high first rounders like Russell/Couch/Smith and Smith...And on and on and on...All of the failed QB's lacked something coming out...Whether it be physical or Intangible related...Luck has EVERYTHING...
Problem is...
Every team minus Carolina that flat out SUCKS is in dire need of a QB...They won't trade out of the 1 slot...
But...IF...And I mean IF...If we r lucky enuff to get the 2 pick and Carolina has the 1 pick...We can easily get them to drop 1 slot...We take Luck and I don';t care if McCoy lights it up the rest of the year...And this is why...
From a FAN view we need to understand that Holmgren and Heckert and possibly even Shurmer will not be here forever...It's a known FACT that McCoy is NOT best suited to a Vertical Style Offense...His best chances are in a WCO...Short to mid range high accuracy routes...
Enter a new HC...Enter a new Vertical Style Offense...With McCoy we're lookin' for a new QB...With Luck we're SET regardless of what Offense we run...And I've got a feeling that Luck will be around ALOT longer than Holmgren and Heckert...
Really? even if Colt Lights it up? you would be willing to trade a bunch (and don't kid yourself, it will take a bunch and it WON'T be easy) to get Luck?
Shurmur, Heckert, Holmgren aren't going to be here for ever, I grant you that, but with so many holes to fill, you think getting Luck is worth that risk?\
What happens if Luck sucks or what if we don't get him guys to throw to? Now we got a great QB that has no targets AND we still have the holes.
I can appriciated your thoughts, but no way would I do this.. hey, if we somehow end up with the 1st overall pick,, fine,, Take him if Colt isn't the guy. But damn, let's not do a Ditka to get the guy.
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It's a known FACT that McCoy is NOT best suited to a Vertical Style Offense
It's a known fact to a few detractors on here who've decided that Colt isn't the guy that's the ONE. To the vast majority of us, that isn't a FACT at all.
l'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying, the sample size is WAY to small to draw that conclusion.
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Damanshot
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I think the Browns can win with McCoy, and need to use their draft picks on needs at OLB, WR, FS, CB, and RT. People tend to overthink things, and the NFL would have you believe that fielding a contending team is akin to splitting the atom. Its not. Football is a simple game that is won by having a superior collection of football players, emphasis on the plural - players. Its not about having a star at QB, or a star at RB, or at WR. It IS about running the ball on offense, stopping the run on defense, converting 3rd downs on offense, and stopping 3rd down conversions on defense, scoring TDs in the red zone on offense, and forcing opponents to settle for FGs in the red zone on defense. Simple, yet difficult; you need players, especially in the trenches.
I'm tired of 3, 4, 5 year plans. Get some talent around McCoy and on the defensive side of the ball, then watch this team succeed.
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If we decide we need a QB, here's why we DON'T trade up for Luck.
Matt Barkley.
If we decide we need a QB, then we stay where we are, take Barkley, use our 2nd first round pick on a WR. Grab a LB in Round 2
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Really? Even if Colt lights it up - we sell the farm to get luck?
Not only that, but you want to draft a qb to run a different style of offense because our front office and coach won't be here forever so we need to prepare now for a different offense - whenever that may be?
All this while we still need help on the o line, help at reciever, and help on d?
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Building a team through the draft is Heckert's plan. I really doubt that plan entails giving up 3 first round draft choices for a QB.
Colt will have this year and probably next to prove himself. Lets give Colt time to learn the offense before we go out and spend 2 draft classes trying to fill a need we may or may not have.
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Man the dude is a beast...a QB made for the AFC north...he is sort of big ben style in that he can't be brought down easily and is a "football player".
Is he worth the hype? i'm not 100% sure on that since i don't get to watch him..and all i see r highlights.. He def has all the physical tools to be a good QB in this league...i would LOVE for him to be a brown.
All that being said i would never want us to give up first 3 rounds of the draft to get him...That's insane...that should only be done if our team is solid everywhere but the QB spot. And clearly that is not the case..we have pressing needs else where..like S and LB(more speed) our D line is great...we need a stud WR etc etc
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Come on Daman. I'm fine with you or anyone defending Colt, but if you think he can be a good vertical passer you just haven't been watching.
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I would give up our entire draft for a true franchise QB.
I am tired of trying to build a team with scrub QBs, while our competition drafted exceptional QBs ...... and beat us every time.
How many times have we beat Roethlisberger ..... even when he has OL problems and rookies at WR? He just hangs in there and turns a 3rd round rookie with speed and little else into a superstar.
How many times have we beat Flacco? How about Carson Palmer in Cincy? We keep plugging in washed up veterans or later round picks while our division opponents draft guys high and reap the payoff of their investments. Sure they have teams around them with varying degrees of quality players,
We need to go get that superstar at QB if we possibly can. Yeah, I would give up our entire draft, both 1st round picks and all, if Luck is a superstar. I believe he is, and I think that he will take his team to multiple Super Bowls. I would prefer that the Browns be that team.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I am just curious does anyone know what the Giants gave up for Manning?
I know they traded player for player but what else was in that trade?
Joe Thomas #73
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I completely agree with you in part...
But you have to realize all these teams didn't sell the house to find these players...hell both big ben and flaco weren't drafted in the top 10 if i remember correctly. that means nobody thought they were the studs of that years draft.
The reason they did well and are doing well is because of the team they had around them. Don't get it twisted...big ben did NOT win that first championship....sure he had a part in it...but the D and pounding the ball won it for them.
So while it's easy to say let's go after luck by selling the future...we dont know for a fact if he will be a stud....everything indicates he will be...but it's not a 100% fact.
We have NO playmakers anywhere on the field...and if luck some how falls to us (may it be we have the worst record in the league n get the #1 pick or he gets hurt and nobody wants him and he falls to us at 5-6 or whatever..) WE BETTER DRAFT HIM! but if we are in the top 10 and sell our entire draft to move to 1 and draft him? thats ludacris my friend.
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Quote:
Building a team through the draft is Heckert's plan. I really doubt that plan entails giving up 3 first round draft choices for a QB.
Colt will have this year and probably next to prove himself. Lets give Colt time to learn the offense before we go out and spend 2 draft classes trying to fill a need we may or may not have.
One might be inclined to think a major part of the reason we took the Atlanta offer was to have "Ammunition" to move up if need be...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Go Browns!!!
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I forgot we have 2 1st and 2nd rounds next year right? or is it just 1st?
HMMM this just got interesting hahha
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2 1sts 1 2nd. Landry Jones is looking awesome today. He and Barkley are both legitimate prospects as well. I wouldn't sell the farm for Luck if I can get one of those two.
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I haven't seen a lot of Landry Jones. But he seems to have a very long release from what I've seen.
If I was ranking the QB's, I'd go
1. Luck
1a. Barkley
A distant 3rd, Jones.
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I don't see a long release at all. I'm not saying it's insanely quick, but it is not an issue. His release is actually pretty compact and might be a strength.
I'd rank them:
1. Luck
2. Barkley
3. Jones
Not a whole lot of space between them either.
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2 1s
2 4s
I'll take WR Alshon Jeffery and CB Morris Claiborne in the first and come back with a 2nd round OT in Levy Adcock 3rd round linebacker like Danny Trevathon.
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Good points....next year is the year we could take a shot at one of them in the 1st round and still have another pick to take along the lines of what we need more ....ie Saftey or WR or even another O linemen in the late 1st
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No reason to trade up for Luck when Barkley, Jones, and even Griffin would also be good cheaper options.
If Holmgren decides that McCoy is not the answer and wants a new chapter then he should look at Barkley, Jones, or Griffin to be that answer because Luck will come at a Ricky Williams type price.
Picking Barkley or Jones with our 1st pick (while I don't like it) and open up Michael Floyd to be our 1b and a LB in the 2nd or remaining RT.
I would rather go Alshon Jeffery or Justin Blackmon and then best RT option (John Martin, Riley Reiff, or Potter) or delete the RT from the equation if, and only if, Morris Claiborne is still there.
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We'll see what happens.
Every time I see Luck play, (and granted, it's only been a couple of times) and every thing I have read about him leads me to believe that he is about as close to a sure thing as there is, at the most important position on any NFL team.
A great QB makes his receivers and line better. We can have great WRs, but unless we have a QB it won't matter.
Look at Fitzgerald in Arizona.
With DA at QB: 90 catches for 1137 yards, 6 TDs, 12.6 yards/catch.
Look at hie prior 3 or 4 years. Look at this year with Kolb at QB. Last year 12.6 yards/catch. This year so far, 15.7 yards/catch. He is on pace for slightly more catches (90 last year, and 23 through 4 games this year) He is much more productive with a quality QB throwing him the ball.
Doucet averages 16 yards/catch. Those are their main 2 receivers at the WR position. Both have incerased their production as far as yardage tremendously compared to last year.
Last year Doucet averaged 11.2 yards/catch. He had 1 TD. He already had 1 TD this year.
Give me a great QB and all of the players on offense become more explosive and productive. (and I'm not even sure that Kolb is all that "great")
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What is their record with all that improvement at QB?
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Quote:
I
We need to go get that superstar at QB if we possibly can. Yeah, I would give up our entire draft, both 1st round picks and all, if Luck is a superstar. I believe he is, and I think that he will take his team to multiple Super Bowls. I would prefer that the Browns be that team.
Interesting. You're ready to sell the farm for Luck - IF he's a superstar, and you think he is. You also say you've only seen him play a few times.
You also have said, in this thread something along the lines of "....so ben and flacco had decent talent around them....."
But getting what MIGHT be a star at qb. is more important than filling the team with talent, right?
Then what? We ruin another qb? Face it - IF we got luck, he'd better have us in the playoffs his first year - cause otherwise too many would be saying the same old crap: We need a qb., and o line help, and defense, and receivers.
If it were up to you, you'd put us another 2 or 3 years back.
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2 1s
2 4s
I'll take WR Alshon Jeffery and CB Morris Claiborne in the first and come back with a 2nd round OT in Levy Adcock 3rd round linebacker like Danny Trevathon.
....................................................................................................................
As usual , you and I are on a very similar page 
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3rd round linebacker like Danny Trevathon.
Please no.
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Come on Daman. I'm fine with you or anyone defending Colt, but if you think he can be a good vertical passer you just haven't been watching.
Man, I just don't agree with you..
And I still think it would be a dumb idea to bet the farm on Luck if Colt is lighting it up as was stated..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Here's a question for you Daman... I'm sure you try to be an objective poser. So what do you think Colt does badly?
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What is their record with all that improvement at QB?
Way too early to tell.
Let's look at some other great QBs though.
Peyton Manning:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/
Look at the Colt's improvement from before Payton to after Peyton. Look at yards ... points..... and every other factor.
Look at the Packers before and after Favre.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/
Look at the Cowboys with Aikman.
Look at the Falcons with Ryan
Look at the improvement made by the Texans when they got Shaub.
Look at the Rams with and without Warner.
I could go on and on ....
QBs make teams great. Obviously you need to surround them with some talent, but a great QB makes all of his teammates better. Look at the OL the Steelers have given Roethlisberger some years. They have put some real crap in front of him. He's been abused, beat down, and slammed to the turf more than almost any other QB I can think of. He'll also hang in the pocket and take those shots to make a play. How much better does he make their team? Do they win 2 Super Bowls with a so-so QB? Do the Saints win a Super Bowl with a so-so QB? Do the Patriots win 3 Super Bowls with a "good enough" QB?
This league is, more and more, a QB's league. You need a big play QB, who can elevate the play of everyone around him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Brady 6th round after thought
Warner NFLE
Farve came via trade from Atlanta for a 2nd?
Peyton's 1 superbowl came from the defense playing well and handing off to Addai. Big Ben's first superbowl came from handing the ball off and letting the defense do their thing
Aikman played with what 9 hall of famers? Charlie Frye would have been a Hall of fame QB if surrounded witht hat much talent.
BTW compare Colt's numbers to Aikman and Manning over their first 12 games. Hell 90% of the cowboys fans wanted the boys to dump aikman after his first season as did most Colts fans with Manning after his first year.
I know what you are saying and my arguing was more for the sake of arguing than anything else but my point is we do not know what we have in Colt, it would be foolish to give up 3 first round picks for the next big thing when Colt may very well be the next big thing.
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Depending upon where those picks are, I might hold onto them and I would see if maybe Boise State's Kellen Moore is available.
With that said, I think we need more than a QB at this point. Of course, I reserve the right to alter my opinion at a later date.
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I don't wanna sound like a jerk, but Kellen Moore isn't even draftable. He's basically Graham Harrell.
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I don't wanna sound like a jerk, but Kellen Moore isn't even draftable. He's basically Graham Harrell.
B-but...He's won all those games...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Dude, you just shot yourself in the foot. Look at the first year and a half of any of the qb's you highlighted. Look at the stats, the team, the record. You flat out just made a point for keeping McCoy, whether you realize it or not. In fact, I didn't even look at your links. Peyton was bad his first year. So was favre. So was Aikman. Yet you don't want to give Colt even a year of starts???? 
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Peyton Manning attacked down the field. So did Favre. Aikman might be your closest argument ... but he was on a horrible Dallas team. He did need some help before he could shine.
I look at McCoy and I have a lot of concerns. I don't see accuracy. I don't see pocket awareness.I don't see a willingness to throw the ball down the field. I see "stupid throw syndrome" like Anderson had .. where he'll throw a ball to a spot where no one on his team can make a play ..... but the other team can easily do so.
It goes beyond just stats.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Manning and Aikman weren't drafted in the 3rd round for a reason.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I agree DinD...I'd offer the three first rounders and see what happens.
I'd offer our entire 2012 draft, all of our 2013 draft...AND a ham sandwich if that's what it takes. He's that good.
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree DinD...I'd offer the three first rounders and see what happens.
I'd offer our entire 2012 draft, all of our 2013 draft...AND a ham sandwich if that's what it takes. He's that good.
No, he isn't.
I actually believe Luck has become overrated, and I really like him. He's definitely my top prospect, but no draft prospect in history was that good.
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Why We SHOULD Trade Up for
Luck???
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