DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Men Don't Have It Fair

Without turning this into an anti-feminism or anti-women/woman thread I will say right off the bat I am for equality.

However, my question is whether or not equality is taking place or whether it is just my eyes or viewpoints.

I noticed yet another commercial on TV where a man was acting like a bumbling fool who is incapable of doing anything for himself. Then on one tv show after another, it's a helpless father who has no control over his family, yet the mother / wife wields all of the true power.

I know that it used to be a chauvinistic society ... but I wasn't even alive back then. Now I feel like the pendulum has swung in the other direction COMPLETELY.

Imagine what company or brand would end up in hot water, with public backlash and maybe even lawsuits if they had a commercial where the women is some sort of ditz that couldn't do much more than take orders from their husband.

I just feel like rather than allow time to take it's natural course ... we have pushed to a society where women demand equality in every single category and now don't actually have it even but are getting more than men and in many cases preferential treatment.

Feel free to disagree ... not trying to bash. I just don't understand how if I did some of the things to women that women did to men, I would be seen as the pig.

Thoughts?

There's an old Bill Maher stand-up act that pretty much consists of just about everything you've said here.

I think if you search 'Bill Maher feminism' I'm sure you can find it ... he essentially argues that the feminine values have become the dominant values of the culture.

To a degree, I agree with both of you. On the other hand, I still see women being paid less and often treated poorly.

We have to first define "equality" before we can practice it. I think most people have different definitions. Equal to some is not equal to others.

The problem with feminism is that (in my opinion) these things take time.

Easy of me to demand as being a man ... but please hear me out.

If you implement change today ... it won't show up tomorrow. Literally it takes time.

If you give a woman an equal amount of training and opportunity today as a man and they are both 20 years old ... you won't see the changes instantly. Because the people at the top (who are 65 and 70 years old) will be the ones still making the decision. They grew up in the 50's to 70's range when men were still the guy who owned the house.

As I said - difficult of me to suggest that women "wait..." being a man and all but at the same time it is difficult to as well to see women getting more opportunity than I do and still going back to the "glass ceiling" idea. I think if they judge it based upon what is going on and not the entire labor market then things would be more fair.

If we continue to judge the idea of feminism on wages which incorporate 40 years of inequality - then you can't expect an equal answer. AND - I think that if women do continue to push for more rights and it actually DOES go past the equality line... then in another 40 years the pendulum will have been pushed the entire way entirely where men are being discriminated against.

Once again ... not trying to spark anything and am keeping an open mind about this. But It honestly bothers me when it seems like everything is geared towards woman power. And obviously some of that is me just seeing it that way ... but I don't think a lot of it is.

If you're a good looking woman, are smart, and have a good work ethic, the world is yours. That woman has a leg up on everyone else.

The thing that annoys me is that now, as I'm trying to get into an Ivy League college, a girl with a lesser resume has a better chance of getting in than I do. That doesn't seem right.

I totally agree.....the world is theirs if they want it. What I find baffling is that I know several women who fit this description; they are beautiful, educated and making 6 figures or close to it. They are also in destructive marriages to domineering a-hole husbands. I don't know if the attraction was for the challenge or something else.

It's the same with racism. A black comedian can make stereo typical jokes about whites all night long... Let a white comedian do that and see what happens.

Now I know racism was and is still rampant but I also think reverse racism needs to be addressed.

As for women, they still don't get equal pay for the same jobs. They do get sexually harassed often, and they sometimes wield more power in the home. But many more women are dominated then men IMHO.

No need to flame me, just an observation on both points.

The wage gap is real.

That article does a good job of explaining away many of the descrepencies, and if you take into account Ptsu's interesting take on the age influence....I'll bet that things pretty much even out.

Quote:

---

I noticed yet another commercial on TV

---

In all honesty..it's exactly that... a tv commercial....in your every day life..what experiences gives you any other views..I guess what I'm asking is.. do you see the tv commercial the same..or different from a daily view.

Quote:

---

Now I feel like the pendulum has swung in the other direction COMPLETELY.

---

Another word for equal..is balance...Balance keeps the pendulum in an equal swing..imo...the pendulum is getting it's balance back..on this particular subject..

Not from a tv influence.. but on a real life influence.. I believe it's on how you perceive treating of a woman is demanding them to push above the equality of a man...If you perceive it to be that way ,then it will look to be that..

in this society..I believe people are becoming more tolerant of others.Which in turns, puts the balance or equality of how we accept the so called preferential treatment..At least imo..

The only thing that really irks me is the ire that women can receive at the hands of other women.

For instance, my wife has expressed, through her own conclusions, the desire to stay at home with our kids (which we do not yet have) if/when I make an income to sustain the family on my own, which is very feasible within the next 2-3 years. I want to reiterate, this is NOT my idea (hell I'm always for extra income). But her belief is that when we have kids, she would rather raise them than drop them off every day, which I understand.

But the problem is, on more than one occasion, she has been ostracized by other women for refusing to catch up with the times. I'm not saying this is all or most women that would ostracize her, but more those who prescribe to the radical feminism.

It just really irks the hell out of me.

Quote:

---

We have to first define "equality" before we can practice it. I think most people have different definitions. Equal to some is not equal to others.

---

Very true..I like that statement Even coming from a woman..

Psst...life isn't fair.
some things guys get an advantage, some things women get the edge. Race, religion, sex, age, etc...everything has pros and cons

My only observation is Hollywood depicts the American male as a bumbling hapless hubby / idiot saved each week in a half hour by his all knowing wife.

Pfft...

Dawg.... I'm soooooooooo glad you started this thread. It's one I've toyed with posting for more than 3 years now- just never got around to it.

I'm not so much posting about the meat of your thread-starter, as much as I am the set-up.

For years, I've seen a trend in TV shows and advertising wherein the "Father Figure" is a mindless dolt, outsmarted by his kids, the wife- even the family dog. It was funny when it was first unveiled with the likes of Al Bundy, but that show was funny because the characters were developed over the years. Al was "everyman"... an average Joe 6-Pack whom Life was crapping on... yet still he persevered. We actually pulled for Al, because we could see that, despite his shortcomings and failings, there was a basically good guy trying to do the best for his (unappreciative) family.

Recent incarnations haven't even tried to elicit that response in us. The current crop of Husbands/Boyfirends/Babydaddies are watered-down, buffoonish shadows of Al Bundy. They are now fall guys, "straight men" who set up callow punchlines for the teens, pre-teens and wife, and mindless ATM's who bankroll the shallow desires of the family around them.

I don't watch those sitcoms any more, because they don't make me laugh. The writing is so obvious and the format is so hackneyed that it's a waste of my time. I suppose there are a few shows out there that buck that trend, but I'm so turned off by the overabundance of the kind I detest that I have no desire to seek them out.

I'm a graybeard on these boards. I'm part of the first generation of Americans who were born into a home with a TV set waiting for them, so I cut my eye teeth on shows like "I Love Lucy," where the wife was a 'dingbat' (anyone remember how much dignity Edith Bunker was allowed to develop on "All In The Family?") Guess what? Even as a little kid, I didn't find that sort of humor my cup of tea. I guess I just don't laugh at the "hapless victim" character.

The last family-oriented sitcom I made a point to watch was The Cosby Show, (mid '80's-early'90's) partially because the father figure, even though he faced the trials of Al Bundy (albeit in a gentler way), still represented Dads with an inherent dignity that I was able to appreciate. AND... the writing was pretty good, as well.

Now- we have commercials like this one I just saw for the first time: a bunch of people (all friends, I presume) have finished dinner at a restaurant. When the bill arrives, several folks pull out their smartphones, and immediately wire their share of the tab into the account of the person who picked up the tab. At the end of the commercial, there's the (obligatory) "hapless male" who struggles with his phone. His wife/girlfriend/significant other says to him (in tones dripping with condescension): Here, Honey- I'll show you how..."

My main bitch about this isn't the content per-se... it's how damned pervasive it is these days. It sends a subliminal message to the general populace that is antithetical to the "equality" paradigm that began in the late 60's/early '70's.

I mean.... why couldn't there have been a "dumb couple" who were helped by their "smart couple" friends? I already know the answer: it's because that approach wouldn't be pithy, snarky, and denigrating enough to actually "entertain" potential customers.

I could rant on some more about how often Madison Ave misses the boat (as does Hollywood) with the likes of me, but that would simply be gilding the lily.... I've already banged out way more keystrokes than these hucksters deserve from me.

[rant/off]

It all started with "Who's the Boss" didn't it.

I could not have said that better if I tried and had a week to write it.

The problem I have with feminist is that they don't want equality. They want equal jobs at equal pay but still want men to open doors for them and pay for dates. They want the right to go out and get a good job but the privilege of staying home to take care of the kids - when they want. If a guy is a stay at home dad "what is wrong with him? Why can't he get a job?"

Then different women have different levels of feminism and as a guy you are expected to innately know exactly where they are on that scale and treat them appropriately for their individual level of feminism. When out on a date you do something and girl A will think you are being overbearing where as girl B will think you are weak is you don't.

I don't really worry about, I just treat women the way I was taught.

If they don't like it, blame my Mama.

being in the old fart portion of life { lol } I can say ditto for me .. I wondered if I where the only guy who was tired of the endless trend on TV ..

I have a slightly different take on this...

I think the overcompensation is done because, at the end of the day, we all know that men are going to forever be the physically dominate gender (and probably always will be the majority of top earners also). Hollywood and Madison Ave are, more of less, trying to play off of that. It's almost as if they are subliminally pitying women about always having to be second in line. "Sorry you are continually paid less....Here...have Homer Simpson as our condolences".

Instead of showing reality (where there are just as many dingbat ladies as knucklehead men), they are swinging the pendulum in the other direction. It's a marketing ploy to keep women interested in what they are selling. Women are part of ratings. They go to movies. If you show them in a better light, there's a good chance they'll produce more $$ for the creators.

Just like most of almost anything....these decisions for the product they are selling is driven by money....that, most likely, men are making.

Quote:

---

It's a marketing ploy to keep women interested in what they are selling. Women are part of ratings. They go to movies. If you show them in a better light, there's a good chance they'll produce more $$ for the creators.

---

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Quote:

---

Imagine what company or brand would end up in hot water, with public backlash and maybe even lawsuits if they had a commercial where the women is some sort of ditz that couldn't do much more than take orders from their husband.

---

You mean like Chicken of the Sea Tuna a few years back when they had Jessica Simpson asking her then husband (nick Leshay) if it was tuna in the can or Chicken cause it does say chicken ya know....

My understanding and memory of the time was that Chicken of the Sea received no backlash at all...

Oh,, and ask any woman,, in thier opinions,, we are pigs.. The good news is, most of them LOVE pork.....

That wasn't a commercial. It happened on their reality television show.

Eh?

Ok boys, I have a challenge for you ya'll! (actually it's more like homework/research)

First, watch some old school tv like Make Room for Daddy and those types of shows. The men were just as bumbling then as they are in todays tv shows. Just shown in a different way as to not make the men unhappy.

Second, how many societies are matriarchal? You might be surprised at how long women have been running things in certain cultures.

And last but not least of all, How many woman rulers have there been through out history? (and of those woman rulers how many were as ruthless and viscious as their male counterparts and how many of those same societies are no longer around because of ruthless viscious women rulers?)

Ok, my work here is done hehehehehe

Quote:

---

And last but not least of all, How many woman rulers have there been through out history? (and of those woman rulers how many were as ruthless and viscious as their male counterparts and how many of those same societies are no longer around because of ruthless viscious women rulers?)

---

I forgot all about Marge Schott....

No, I don't think so.

Given a recent divorce, this topic is particularly sensitive for me.

I got so frustrated with the bumbling fool caricature, Ray, King of Queens, According to Jim, etc, etc, I stopped watching sitcoms. The whole premise of these shows was that the man was the joke, not part of the joke, or circumstances associated with the joke.

At one time my job involved a lot of travel, so I was not home regularly. There is a natural tendency for a working man to defer household matters to the woman in a relationship. It happens, but that does not mean that an opinions and input from the other half does not exist.

Ultimately I became portrayed, as the same, even though I was not. I wondered how much the shows influence had to deal with my circumstance, but in the end, a strong position taken by me, on a matter of family importance, resulted in divorce.

Matters of business are just not the same as family matters, and it is a stretch to make the comparison.