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Nowhere is this better seen than on Wall Street, which is chock full of multimillionaires and billionaires who got to the top by taking advantage of items like "too big to fail insurance" for their banks, gambling with government insured deposits, ripping off state and local governments on pension management fees and, of course, the trillion dollars in bailouts bucks given at interest rates that were way below market levels. These people know the role of government very well, even if they pretend this is all about a free market.
These are the parts that really upset me. The banks successfully lobbied for repeal of parts of Glass-Stegall so that they could perform riskier bets with what are supposed to be our federally-insured deposits, which are supposed to be invested very conservatively.
Investment banks were given a huge "subsidy" in the late 90's and early 2000's as the capital that flows into them is taxed at rates 20% less than normal income (compare top income rate of roughly 35% to 15% capital gains tax). They didn't get that money by selling investors on how good they are at investing or performing; they got it because dumping money into investment banks is hugely favored by the government. Its one thing to make it easier to invest, its entirely another to turn the stock market into a big savings account that has excess capital. This is where I agree with tax reformers. Tax capital gains at the same rate that income is. The only incentive for investing should be potential higher rate of return by picking the right stocks of companies with strong fundamentals, not using the stock market as a huge tax shelter.
Then the whole housing mess. The government is complicit here as well, but mostly by setting up the moral hazard that banks took advantage of to create these exotic derivatives. No one in the government held a gun to anyone's head to force them to loan to people who couldn't afford it. In fact, most of the subprime loans at the heart of this mess came outside government regulation. What did happen though is that banks knew that government policy for decades has been increased home-ownership. With this was an implicit backing of most of the mortgages in America by Fannie and Freddie. Banks knew that if they made these bets, that the housing market was one thing the government would do everything to save.
Does anyone really believe that financiers, whose sole job is financial analysis, fell prey to the idea that housing prices would go up forever? My 8 year old cousin knows better than that. That means that it was either they were forced into this bad behavior, or they knew that ultimately there was little risk to them, no matter what the outcome. The evidence suggests that the government was asleep at the wheel and the biggest banks knew they couldn't lose, so they took advantage. My evidence is that many banks did survive by maintaining conservative standards (like Third Federal). How could this happen if they had a gun to their head forcing them to lend to everyone?
I find it amazing that even now with all this evidence in hand, push for regulations of investment banks and return to higher capital gains rates is being resisted by anyone, when the evidence clearly shows that laws for the last 15 years are good at setting up bubbles, not facilitating meaningful investment. I mean we've had two huge bubbles in the last 10 years (tech, housing), as well as another stock market contraction in 2003 or 2004. Its no accident that these policy changes in the late 90's preceded a decade of roller coaster.
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I am so confused.. I'm still trying to figure out what the Occupy Wall Street folks are actually looking to change.
Doesn't feel like there is a consistent message from them.
But I get the jest of this article. For me, it all boils down to lobby groups who lobby to get rules changes for thier own benefit. not that there is anything wrong with that unless it goes against the greater good of americans.
I've softened a little. it wasn't so long ago that I wanted all lobby and political action type groups banned and outlawed altogether.
But I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't that someone is trying to *"bribe" politicians. The problem is that politicians accept the *"bribes"!
* I'm gonna get beat on for calling it a bribe, but what would you call it when a politician (or a family member) receives (any kind of) financial benefit from a lobby group or PAC for voting in favor of a PAC or Lobby Groups desires?
When I say any kind of financial benefit, it could be a job when they are out of office, or a new car for thier wife, or kid, Vacations, cruises, Backroom cash, stocks etc etc,, the list could go on and on.
If that's not a bribe, OK,, I'm listening, what would you call it?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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But I've come to the conclusion that the problem isn't that someone is trying to *"bribe" politicians. The problem is that politicians accept the *"bribes"!
Both behaviors are symptomatic of a bigger problem. The system has always responded to money, but more recently it seems like it ONLY responds to big money.
In that case, I don't fault the moneyed interests for "bribing," (my definition is essentially buying elections) as it is technically legal, and I don't fault politicians for taking it, as that is legal as well. We need to change the system and make it respond less to the largest concentration of money, and more to the needs of average Americans. Its probably a pipe dream though.
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Legal vs Moral..
It might be legal to take what I refer to as Bribes, but is certainly isn't moral if it negativly impacts Americans.....
Politicians are supposed to work for us. not lobby groups.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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From what I see a lot of the people who hate the Tea Party think these people are pure with great ideas. Has anyone heard what these people are doing during their protests? People are so shallow, it's all about what "team" they are on.
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I'm not on a team, but I don't like Palin at all or the Tea Party. I think I've made that clear several times.
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I was commenting on the initial article, I was not directing my comments to you. I have no idea where you stand, although based on this article and what I remember of your posts, I think you probably lean more to one team than the other. 
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I'm on your team Jules. Go Browns!
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As someone on neither team, I find it ironic that the Tea Party and Wall Street groups have a very big overlap in regards to things they're angry about, but they just don't see it due to bias.
A lot of the problems that plague corporate America and the government are intertwined.
Of course, this is a nutty pipe dream ... but one of the most effective things our society could do in protest would be to join together and vote against Democrats and Republicans ... creating a four person race, so to speak. Each side can rally around a candidate or candidates who aren't beholden to financial interests. People always talk about how you can't get elected without money ... and that's true, by it's not by a lack of choice. If people wanted to vote for candidates who couldn't campaign in every nook and cranny or run TV and radio ads constantly, then suddenly the money wouldn't be such a controlling factor.
It would be far more effective than sitting in a public square with a tri-cornered hat and whining about socialism or wearing masks and getting stoned in a park.
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Do you really think that if all the people voted for 3rd or 4th party candidates that you wouldn't just be told by the " news " that either the democrat or republican won.
Who really counts the votes anyways?
The lack of other parties over the long term is proof that there is not true political freedom.
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We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I am so confused.. I'm still trying to figure out what the Occupy Wall Street folks are actually looking to change.
Doesn't feel like there is a consistent message from them.
They dont want to have to work to make money
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Nothing exemplifies the current state of the American mind than this movement.
A bunch of people skipping work and other responsibilities to provide for themselves so that they can go and sit on their collective asses and whine that someone else is doing better than them and "it's just not fair".
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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One look at the countries now supporting this movement (Russia, Iran, China etc) should tell a (sane) person all they need to know!
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Just read the article (as much as I could get through, anyway).
This guy is a complete retard.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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As someone on neither team, I find it ironic that the Tea Party and Wall Street groups have a very big overlap in regards to things they're angry about, but they just don't see it due to bias.
yes, they agree on alot of the problems that are happening now. but, they disagree on how it should be fixed. i haven't seen anything on messages from the OWS, but the general feeling that has been taken from it in the media is that the government should come in and fix everything. The Tea Party is pretty much the opposite solution for the same problem.
yes, the real answer likely lies in the middle where the government fixes their rules/regulations that have allowed for the bubbles and the 'too big to fail' situations, while also getting smaller and reducing our national debt that could make our currency too fluid on the global market.
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A lot of the problems that plague corporate America and the government are intertwined.
of course. the government regulates corporate America, so it's impossible for them not to be.
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Of course, this is a nutty pipe dream ... but one of the most effective things our society could do in protest would be to join together and vote against Democrats and Republicans ... creating a four person race, so to speak. Each side can rally around a candidate or candidates who aren't beholden to financial interests. People always talk about how you can't get elected without money ... and that's true, by it's not by a lack of choice. If people wanted to vote for candidates who couldn't campaign in every nook and cranny or run TV and radio ads constantly, then suddenly the money wouldn't be such a controlling factor.
all it would really take is a candidate or 'party' to truly use twitter and facebook to it's full advantage. that's all "free" advertising if you can get people to 'follow/friend' your group.
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It would be far more effective than sitting in a public square with a tri-cornered hat and whining about socialism or wearing masks and getting stoned in a park.
playing chess in the park with an 80yr old blind man would be more effective as well.
#gmstrong
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all it would really take is a candidate or 'party' to truly use twitter and facebook to it's full advantage. that's all "free" advertising if you can get people to 'follow/friend' your group.
You still have to have a message that resonates with people and you have to not be villified and/or marginalized by the media as "whacko" and "nut jobs" or just plain "insignificant"... and that's not going to happen.
yebat' Putin
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They don't have a clue, but they like to throw around big words to make them seem smart.
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I'm a little insulted by the 99%. That insinuates that 99% of the citizens of this country agree with their take off the distribution of wealth. While the facts may show the numbers to be true, I can promise you that not all 99% think that wealth should be distributed evenly.
I have a hard time sympathizing with anyone that has enough free time to camp out in a city park for weeks on end. To me that signals someone not working and not looking for work.
Who is providing food, water waste facilities to these people, and who is paying for it all?
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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JMO - but I think these "protesters" are idiotic. Sad thing is, it's what this country has come to embrace: "It's not fair".
It's not fair someone makes more than me.
It's not fair that someone gets more money than me.
It's not fair that someone inherited money......it's supposed to be OUR money.
It's not fair that I have to start working at the low end of the pay scale and have to actually put in long hours (or even 40 hours) in order to move up.
My mom and dad have a standard of living that I should be entitled to. Right now.
It's not fair that I signed a contract for student loans and now they want me to repay them.
It goes on and on.
I, too, take issue with them saying they are the 99%. Because I am definitely NOT in the 1%, so they insinuate they are speaking for me.
Who IS supporting these idiots? Who's paying for them to be there? They have to eat, right? I bet all of them have a home/apartment somewhere - who's paying for that?
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Id say the organizations named in the article and many which are too spineless to be named are footing the bill.
Im shocked that that one dope lumped the small cafe owner and the street hotdog vendor into the upper 1%!
I've got news for them. IF there were a revolution in this country, it WILL NOT be a bloodless coup! It will be very, very nasty and the 90% of their 99% figure who DO NOT agree with them will have much to say about its outcome!
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Id say the organizations named in the article and many which are too spineless to be named are footing the bill.
Im shocked that that one dope lumped the small cafe owner and the street hotdog vendor into the upper 1%!
I've got news for them. IF there were a revolution in this country, it WILL NOT be a bloodless coup! It will be very, very nasty and the 90% of their 99% figure who DO NOT agree with them will have much to say about its outcome!
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They want "work" to have even value, no matter what it is.
That's not the way things work though.
Some "work" has no value at all. If I dig a hole, then fill it in, and do this every day, 20 hours/day for months on end, no one can say that I haven't worked hard. However, that work has no value, so I will never even support myself doing so.
Other work requires experience. If someone is not willing to start at the bottom and work their way up, then they will never get to the "fair" wages they expect.
I found is scary, while frightening, that some wanted to bring the top down more than they wanted to build the bottom up. I was also appalled that the guy talking about the inheritance tax had no clue what he was talking about at all. He's out there spewing stuff, and he is wrong about his basic tenets. The girl saying that no one should be allowed to make over $200,000. Wow. She better never work in any industry that requires high dollar purchasers.
The whole thing strikes me as kids who grew up in one system, and much as they go against things their parents say, they also go against the system in place. I wonder if they would be happy waiting in lines 20 blocks long to get their weekly allocations of a single roll of toilet paper, or a single loaf of bread. These kids should read up on how things worked in Communist countries. However, we get celebrities talking about how great life is in Communist Cuba (despite the fact that everyone who can leave there, does) and other Communist countries ..... and how great Communist dictators are. It's insanity ...... but I really think it's kids playing the contrarian more than anything else.
At least, I hope so. I would hate to think that there are that many stupid kids out there.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I wonder if they realize a couple things as they complain about "capitalism" and cry for more government regulations...
1. If capitalism had been allowed to play out, a lot of these banks would have failed and a lot of the rich people they hate would have lost millions... but due to government intervention, the banks were spared and the rich got richer.
2. Do they realize that if everybody made $20/hour that a loaf of bread would cost $7? From the guy that grows the wheat the guy that makes the flour to the guy that transports and drives the forklift in the warehouse to the bakers and the guys that sweep the floors... if EVERYBODY made this tremendous wage, it wouldn't matter because stuff would be so expensive that making $20 under those circumstances would be like making $8 now... so there would be no real gain.
yebat' Putin
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Some "work" has no value at all. If I dig a hole, then fill it in, and do this every day, 20 hours/day for months on end, no one can say that I haven't worked hard. However, that work has no value, so I will never even support myself doing so.
I see guys on the road crews on my way to work that I swear do this everyday. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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People are so shallow, it's all about what "team" they are on.
At the end of the day people don't care about what's fair.
It's about what helps themselves.
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One look at the countries now supporting this movement (Russia, Iran, China etc) should tell a (sane) person all they need to know!
...and look at the organizations supporting them. The American Nazi party, the American Communist party, Obama/Pelosi, etc.
gatewaypundit
talkingsides
The American Nazi Party likes what it sees.
Today the American Nazi Party released a statement in support of Occupy Wall Street movement.
The foremost authority on National Socialism in America has this to say about “Occupy” [ANP leader Rocky Suhayda -ed.] :
What is really MISSING – is the “MOVEMENT” from these popular protests – its time to pull WN heads out of their collective ass’s, and JOIN IN the attack on Judeo-Capitalism. What do you suggest? That WN Working Class White people DEFEND the Judeo-Capitalists? IF the “movement” wasn’t so PATHETIC it would be OUT THERE – LEADING these protests! The fact that its these “lefties” as you call them, who are picking up the ball and running with it – only shows how much more in tune THEY are with the fed up masses of White Workers, than the fossilized, reactionary “right-wing”. WHO holds the WEALTH and POWER in this country – the JUDEO-CAPITALISTS. WHO is therefore the #1 ENEMY who makes all this filth happen – the JUDEO-CAPITALISTS. WHO therefore do WN need to FIGHT? My heart is right there with these people, perhaps someday the “movement” will SHOW the same COURAGE and DEDICATION that these people OUT THERE FIGHTING are SHOWING!
Sincerely, ROCKY SUHAYDA Hail Victory! 88!
Then there’s this…
The Communist Party USA also supports the Obama-endorsed Occupy Wall Street Protests
From the CPUSA website:
This is an exciting time! Thousands of mainly young people have been occupying Wall Street for three weeks already, and the “Occupy Movement” has spread to more than 200 other cities. On Oct. 6 the actions spread to our nation’s capital.
The Communist Party USA (CPUSA) will hold a national teleconference to discuss it:
Arturo Cambron
The Communist Party and the Occupy L.A. Movement
Tuesday, October 11, 8 pm Eastern
Teleconference number: 605-475-4850 (please note this is the corrected number. ignore previous.)
Access code: 1053538#
Southern California Party leader Arturo Cambron will share how the CPUSA and Young Communist League (YCL) are working in “Occupy Los Angeles.”
This movement, also known as the “99% movement,” is being hailed across the country. Movements and organizations are reaching out in solidarity. The AFL-CIO is opening union halls and offering other material assistance. Ordinary people are donating food, money and materials.
In many areas, the “Occupy Movement” is linking up with the National American Wants to Work Week of Actions, Oct. 10-16.
No doubt the “Arab Spring” demonstrations and those that exploded in Wisconsin, Ohio and elsewhere have inspired it. But underlying it all is the economic crisis, the massive unemployment and growing realization that nothing is getting better, and in fact we may be slipping into a “double dip” crisis. The crushing student debt and the feeling of being locked out of society with no future compound this.
The movement is the newest wrinkle in the all-people’s upsurge against the banks and corporations and reflects a new level of class-consciousness.
UPDATE: Thousands of Occupy Chicago protesters cheered the communist leaders last night in Chicago.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Sad thing is, it's what this country has come to embrace: "It's not fair".
It's not fair someone makes more than me.
It's not fair that someone gets more money than me.
It's not fair that someone inherited money......it's supposed to be OUR money.
It's not fair that I have to start working at the low end of the pay scale and have to actually put in long hours (or even 40 hours) in order to move up.
My mom and dad have a standard of living that I should be entitled to. Right now.
It's not fair that I signed a contract for student loans and now they want me to repay them.
You seem to rally behind other cries of unfairness.
For example, it's not fair that I have to work hard and pay taxes so lazy people can coast.
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Touche.... but, pathetic. Ok, let's ditch the word "fair" and shift the focus to personal and individual responsibility.
These people that refuse to make something of and for themselves are whining that someone else did and THEN, they feel that they deserve a portion of what that person created for themselves.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It's not fair someone makes more than me.
It's not fair when different races and sexes don't get the same benefits, salaries, etc. of their male counterparts.
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It's not fair that someone gets more money than me.
See above.
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It's not fair that someone inherited money......it's supposed to be OUR money.
It's the fact these individuals do little to help advance the condition of the majority of Americans which gets most angry.
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It's not fair that I have to start working at the low end of the pay scale and have to actually put in long hours (or even 40 hours) in order to move up.
Indeed. It's not fair with the corporate glass ceiling.
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My mom and dad have a standard of living that I should be entitled to. Right now.
It's a logical assumption. We've progressed as a society, or so we've been told, to where each generation should have a bit of a better life to start out with.
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It's not fair that I signed a contract for student loans and now they want me to repay them.
It's not fair or ethical for universities to guarantee 100% job placement to curb the fear of student loans.
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Ok, let's ditch the word "fair" and shift the focus to personal and individual responsibility.
OK, in that case, the Wall Street corporations (who are legally designated as individuals) have a personal responsibility in regards to their actions. Their mad dash for ever increasing quarterly profits, among other things, has caused a great deal of damage economically. And no one has been held responsible. In fact, a lot of them were given money by the government.
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These people that refuse to make something of and for themselves are whining that someone else did and THEN, they feel that they deserve a portion of what that person created for themselves.
How did that come into the narrative? A lot of those people protesting are teachers and people who work union jobs.
There's the picture being painted of hard workers and lazy bums, and it's entirely false. I know a lot of hard workers who aren't happy with Wall Street.
As for the protesters, they're not doing themselves any favors. The similarity to the Tea Party is striking - a valid complaint that soon is overshadowed by a circus.
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Um........you and phil both realize the statements I made were NOT my feelings, right?
I realize now I didn't make that clear enough apparently - but I said something along the lines of "this is what our society has come to......", i.e. the "it's not fair..." statements that I made.
Those are not MY feelings or thoughts, those are the feelings and thoughts I think too many people in our society have.
Does that make it clearer?
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This tell the story of your video;
"Sally Zelikovsky is a former attorney, turned mother of three. She is the Founder of Bay Area Patriots and Coordinator of the San Francisco Tea Party."
I would probably be able to find a Klansman at just about any Tea Party demonstration... Does that mean they are all Klansmen?
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Quote:
Some "work" has no value at all. If I dig a hole, then fill it in, and do this every day, 20 hours/day for months on end, no one can say that I haven't worked hard. However, that work has no value, so I will never even support myself doing so.
I see guys on the road crews on my way to work that I swear do this everyday.
lol
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Um........you and phil both realize the statements I made were NOT my feelings, right?
I realize now I didn't make that clear enough apparently - but I said something along the lines of "this is what our society has come to......", i.e. the "it's not fair..." statements that I made.
Those are not MY feelings or thoughts, those are the feelings and thoughts I think too many people in our society have.
Does that make it clearer?
I understood that entirely.
I was pointing out that your yourself have often complained about things being unfair.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,171
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,171 |
How didn't it become part of the narrative? Wall Street is currently chock full of people sitting on their asses, not going to a job and doing nothing - all the while complaining that someone else is doing better than them.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,825 |
I don't want to derail the thread here - so feel free to answer here or in a pm. But what do I often complain about being unfair?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,374
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,374 |
I find it amazing that Occupy Wallstreet has been going on for over 5 weeks, has spread to many other U.S.and International cities, and that only now is being mentioned here....I guess the initial media blackout did wonders, the bottom line is the banks and corporations own everything,including the politicians, and both groups know they have the people by the _____'s and they just dont care.
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Re: People Should Occupy Wall
Street
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