Executives exploited pension surpluses Calling Michael Moore or Charles Ferguson. America’s premier muckraking documentary filmmakers are needed for another expose. This time, they can reveal how companies across this country have cheated millions of workers out of a secure retirement, while enriching executives at the top.
Ellen Schultz set out to explain how it happened in her new book, Retirement Heist: How Companies Plunder and Profit from the Nest Eggs of American Workers.
Schultz, a Wall Street Journal reporter, describes how corporate executives enlisted benefits consultants, accountants, actuaries and lawyers, to exploit every loophole and accounting trick to “ monetize” their companies’ pension funds and turn them into their own cookie jar.
Schultz begins her saga with General Electric’s chief executive, Jeffrey Immelt, who announced at the company’s annual shareholder meeting in 2010 that the firm’s pension plan was a drag on earnings. New employees no longer would be eligible to participate.
His message was similar to those of hundreds of companies. They all claimed the trouble was an aging work force with retirement packages that were too generous and couldn’t be sustained when the stock market faltered.
In fact, the plan for GE’s workers was in such fine shape that the company hadn’t contributed any money into it since 1987, and yet it still had enough money to cover all current and future retirees. The same was true for many large companies. But that didn’t stop them from going on a spree of cutting retiree benefits.
The reason, Schultz says, is twofold. First, cutting benefits replenished assets that had been siphoned off for other purposes. For example, GE sold its pension surpluses in restructuring deals. This indirectly turned pension assets into cash. Verizon exploited the surplus to finance downsizing, offering sweetened retirement benefits rather than severance so as not to impact earnings.
Second, cutting benefits helped earnings. Because new accounting rules required companies to put pension obligations on their books, cutting pensions generated paper gains. This was all the incentive top executives needed. They could trade their workers’ retirement for a healthier bottom line that would enhance their personal earnings.
Federal law prohibits employers from rescinding benefits that have been accrued, but they can suspend the plan’s growth by freezing it or providing benefits under a less generous formula. Companies often changed the way pensions are calculated without disclosing it.
This was a tragic surprise for employees entering retirement: Some “cash-balance” plans for older workers effectively froze their pensions just when they should have been reaping the biggest pension enhancements.
Schultz says an industry of benefits consultants arose that helped employers “turn pension plans into profit centers,” treating groups of retirees not as deserving of a decent income after giving their working lives to the company, but as portfolios of assets and debts.
Today, she says, the giant surpluses are gone, “sold, traded, siphoned, diverted to creditors, used to finance executive pay, parachutes and pensions.” It was not investment losses, an aging work force and generous union contracts, as companies claim.
In fact, had companies not raided their pension funds, “they would have had a cushion that could have withstood even the (recent) market crash,” Schultz writes.
These business titans put America’s pensions in crisis to serve themselves. They need to be called out in a documentary and answer publicly for what they’ve done.
Quote: I already gave you an example in my original post.
You also seem to find it unfair that 47% of people don't pay taxes. You've complained about it often.
It is terribly unfair.
It's also stupid, as it completely removes any participation by many people in the funding of the government.
I don't really give a damn what my neighbor spends his money on. I don't really care if someone increases one of his bills. It doesn't affect me at all.
If my bills go up, though, that concerns me.
Right now we have 47% of people completely divorced from paying the bills. They don't give a damn, deep down inside, about what government spends money on, and how much they spend. Why would they really care? It's not their money. It doesn't affect them at all.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I already gave you an example in my original post.
You also seem to find it unfair that 47% of people don't pay taxes. You've complained about it often.
Okay - I don't know what your original post was, so humor me.
Is it unfair that 47% of the people don't pay fed. income tax? Damn right that's unfair. You disagree?
OK, well, in your posts you pretty much stated that the 'This is unfair mentality' had been what society had come to, a negative thing. Yet you often complain that it's unfair that 47% pay taxes. If I'm not mistaken (could've been someone else), you spent some time in Tailgate complaining about some business entity being unfair to you. Electric company, maybe?
Anyway, the point is, you cite society's constant accusations of unfairness as an ill, but you yourself do it often.
Now, what you're doing with all the unfair things is again perpetuating the narrative of hard workers vs. lazy people, which is essentially not what's going on at all.
It is unfair that companies on Wall Street played with people's investments like it were a game, burned the house down, and got their backsides covered by the people, while the people were left in the lurch.
It is unfair that people who completely failed at their job were rewarded with million dollar bonuses paid for by the people. If you want to give the CEO who shanked the punt an eight figure bonus, that's your business, but do after you've paid back the taxpayers who bailed you out.
It is unfair that companies who have been living off the teat of subsidy for years ship jobs and operations overseas while continuing to be subsidized by taxpayers.
It is unfair that no one has been held accountable for the reckless practices that crippled us economically and cost a lot of honest, hard working people.
I don't know where the narrative comes from that complaints against Wall Street are made by the lazy who are throwing a pity party for themselves. Like I said, there's a lot of teachers and union workers at those rallies.
I think they're silly. And they're disorganized. But I am getting a laugh out of the fact that people who championed a movement that consisted of people wearing tri-cornered hats and carrying signs about socialism and death camps are now rolling their eyes at the silliness of another.
And like I said ... the core of their complaints isn't that far off. The big problem, or a huge part of it. is the collusion of government and corporate interests.
In the end, the Tea Party crowd will mock the wall Street protesters as being lazy potheads who are entirely inconsistent, and the Wall Street protesters will call the Tea Party crowd lewd names and mock their inconsistencies ... and government and private corporations will continue to collude for the betterment of themselves at the expense of the population.
OK, well, in your posts you pretty much stated that the 'This is unfair mentality' had been what society had come to, a negative thing. Yet you often complain that it's unfair that 47% pay taxes.
I don't know that I've done that often......but yes, I do feel it is unfair. You don't????????
Quote:
If I'm not mistaken (could've been someone else), you spent some time in Tailgate complaining about some business entity being unfair to you. Electric company, maybe?
You are not mistaken - it was me. I get penalized for not being totally electric, and consequently I get charged more for my limited usage. While I don't think I called it unfair - I'm sure I called it stupid. We are told to save energy - don't burn coal, etc.....and since I don't heat my house with coal powered electric - I have to pay more for the electricity I do use? Yes, I feel that's stupid. Yes, I feel, in today's times.........that it's stupid to say " save energy", and then have the electric company say "oh, you don't spend enough, so we have to charge you more." You don't find that stupid?
Quote:
Anyway, the point is, you cite society's constant accusations of unfairness as an ill, but you yourself do it often.
No, sir, I do not do it "often". And when I do do it, it's with good reason, as anyone with common sense could see.
What you seem to be missing is I have also lost money in my investments. I have lost "money" in my home. Somehow, my property taxes have gone up though, due to the county saying "hey, dude, every property in the country has lost value - except here in Henry County Ohio - all the properties here have gone up in value. Thanks for your tax money."
Quote: These people that refuse to make something of and for themselves are whining that someone else did and THEN, they feel that they deserve a portion of what that person created for themselves.
You seem to assume that every person at these things is a lazy drag on society or a complete communist. My high school basketball coach used to say something about assuming. For example, I don't assume that everyone in the Tea Party is stupid just b/c a few people hold up signs saying "keep your government hands off my Medicare!"
At issue here is not hardworking small businesspeople who build stuff from the ground up, taking risks with their own money. Nor is it bankers who did things the right way. Or corporations that behaved appropriately. Or is it even Wall Street bankers who were trying their best to do things the right way.
There is building evidence that at the core of this housing crisis was mortgage fraud the likes of which we have never seen. Bill Black, who was central to uncovering the fraud at the heart of the S&L scandals of the late 80's, gave a statement before Congress last year. In it, he provides the logical framework for how big banks set up an enormous bubble with an eye on short-term profits, and if they had any pulse, a knowledge that the whole thing would come crashing down eventually. In fact, it was widespread knowledge in the trade that these types of subprime loans were "liar's loans." There was also evidence that they used accounting magic to label the extremely risky Alt-A loans as "prime," thus making their holdings appear more sound than they were.
There is evidence that employees at these firms raised warning bells, and in some cases were immediately fired without explanation for rocking the boat.
There was a report from the FBI in 2004 that detailed a mortgage fraud epidemic, but the FBI didn't have the personnel to deal with it b/c their major focus had become terrorism.
There is also an extensive report made at the behest of Lehman's bankruptcy court (Valukas report) that uncovered that Lehman violated generally accepted accounting practices to try to get bad assets off their balance sheets, and that this means that "sufficient evidence exists to support legal action and possible recovery of losses."
Many try to point to the government as "forcing" this behavior, yet estimates show that 70-80% of bad subprime loans originated in mortgage firms that fell outside of regulation. The Community Reinvestment Act is often cited, without acknowledging that the act has been in place for 35 years or that the CRA gives no binding regulatory authority to anyone, but rather only recommendations can be given.
People also may point to the implied government backing of Fannie and Freddie, but neglect to mention that that guarantee has been in place since the formation of these two in the 1930's. It was only recently that other institutions (and these two themselves) had the gall to take advantage of that guarantee.
Looking at all the available evidence, all that I can conclude is that these big banks (and the execs at Fannie and Freddie) took advantage of the system to make a quick buck. No one held a gun to their head. They also had to know that it would crash. As Mr. Black outlined in his testimony, anything based on loans of such poor quality (fraud rates estimated from 60-90%!) is destined to failure. That is a complete lack of fiduciary responsibility and the definition of fraud.
I simply cannot believe that anyone in their right mind can look at this kind of stuff and say that there needs to be less government regulation or that no one has the right to be mad. Or that people are incorrectly mad because "these investment bankers at the heart of the crisis made something of themselves." Anyone who's house lost value during this (which I'm assuming to be most people, including myself) or who lost their job b/c of the housing contraction (and most job loss is tied directly to that single event) should be appalled that their major source of wealth was gambled away by large institutions acting in many cases outside of the generally accepted practices, very possibly outside the law, and almost certainly with the knowledge that this would crash sooner or later.
Quote: Right now we have 47% of people completely divorced from paying the bills. They don't give a damn, deep down inside, about what government spends money on, and how much they spend. Why would they really care? It's not their money. It doesn't affect them at all.
These people still pay all the other types of taxes out there, and thus aren't completely divorced from paying the bills. In fact, over 90% pay federal taxes, and of all taxpayers, the bottom 10% pay an average federal burden of about 16% of their income.
Rather than looking at the number and feeling like this isn't fair, you should ask yourself why is the number so high?
Half the reason that number is so high for income tax specifically is b/c so many more people are earning below the standard deduction due to the financial crisis. Do you think those people want to earn crap wages compared to what they were making before the crisis? Do you think they would be happy to pay a few more percent to get the wages back they had before the crisis? This isn't willful neglect or an agenda by the government to "bribe" the poor with lower taxes; its a reflection of how bad the economy is.
The other half is tax expenditures, the majority of which are benefits for the elderly (44%) and children and the working poor (30%).
What exactly does it accomplish making these people pay more? The elderly likely paid in plenty when they were younger and in many cases have lost their earning potential. Children have little or no means to earn. People who lost their livelihoods through the crisis, should we hit them with some more taxes and really pile on? Why shouldn't people in entry level, lower paying jobs be given the chance that businesses are, which is to write off operating losses to give nascent businesses every chance to succeed? (Young individuals more or less do this by living paycheck to paycheck on meager wages or taking out loans to finance education).
"Sally Zelikovsky is a former attorney, turned mother of three. She is the Founder of Bay Area Patriots and Coordinator of the San Francisco Tea Party."
I would probably be able to find a Klansman at just about any Tea Party demonstration... Does that mean they are all Klansmen?
Oh I see, the vast evilness of the Tea Party is greater than that of all the anti American groups backing this thing and those great friends of our Russia, Iran and now communist China.
We will be waiting for the Klansman at the Tea Party rally video or videos of participants obstructing businesses, bridges, being arrested etc. I produced the commies at the OWS rally. Can you do the same?
Not all there think like these dopes, but make no mistake the heart of this movement is black!
Can someone explain what one of these 47 percenters looks like. It is often repeated that 47 percent of people do not pay any federal income tax. Can someone define exactly what is meant by " federal income tax" in that.
The occupy Wall Street protesters remind me of the hippie protesters of the 60's. Most I believe are there because it seems to be "the thing to do" if you have the time and means to live in a park for weeks, and have little or no understanding of why they are there, and what they do know is what they have been told by others there.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
"Sally Zelikovsky is a former attorney, turned mother of three. She is the Founder of Bay Area Patriots and Coordinator of the San Francisco Tea Party."
I would probably be able to find a Klansman at just about any Tea Party demonstration... Does that mean they are all Klansmen?
Oh I see, the vast evilness of the Tea Party is greater than that of all the anti American groups backing this thing and those great friends of our Russia, Iran and now communist China.
We will be waiting for the Klansman at the Tea Party rally video or videos of participants obstructing businesses, bridges, being arrested etc. I produced the commies at the OWS rally. Can you do the same?
Not all there think like these dopes, but make no mistake the heart of this movement is black!
Oh, before you get your panties in a bunch, I said (QUOTE) "I would probably be able to find a Klansman at just about any Tea Party demonstration... Does that mean they are all Klansmen?" (END QUOTE)
But if you want a little proof;
Here's David Duke a Tea Party advocate and known Klansman:
Tea Party organizers argue that racist are small percentage:
Here's some of the racism demontrated at Tea Party rallies:
Herman Cain in denial...
How's that for evidence that I could PROBABLY find a Klansman at any Tea Party rally.
I'm also not sure about Russia, Iran and China being AT the OWS protest. Maybe they agree, but who cares, that doesn't mean they're running it unless your info source is FOX NEWS! lol
BTW- what do you mean by "Not all there think like these dopes, but make no mistake the heart of this movement is black!"
That could easily be considered to mean "a black movement". I assume you mean the evil axis of Russia, Iran and China. If you're so anti-China communist I have to ask how many goods you own made in China? And the last I heard the cold war with Russia (The USSR is commonly referred to as Russia by those who don't know the difference.) is over and we are friends again. As for Iran, well that regime will support anything that gives American Government and Capitalist leaders the creeps.
You shouldn't freak out over these kids wanting to get what they feel is an injustice rectified. Now that it's spreading who knows what it'll morph into...
And just to clear things up a little, when I posted the original article I said; "Never heard of this site or the Author but I mostly agree."
And I don't hate people for being part of the Tea Party, but I have absolutely zero interest in or respect for the Tea Party. I have never hid that fact on this board. I also often refer to people involved with the Tea Party as idiots or dolts, but I don't hate them... maybe pity them a little.
Back to the OWS protesters; never said I completely understand them, but I definitely agree that the system is broken, the Banks and Corps control everything and politics as usual needs to change. I also would like to see some charges brought against those MOST responsible for this recession.
If playing bongos and just sitting around being a pain in the ass helps to change these things then I support them. If not, then I still tip my hat for them taking a stand. Call them lazy no-good-for-nothing hippies or whatever you want, they're looking for answers.
I laughed when I saw the site for the OWS response, obviously started by the Tea Party mentality types:
Quote: How's that for evidence that I could PROBABLY find a Klansman at any Tea Party rally.
your problem is saying you could probably find them at any Tea Party rally. that means you need to be able to find them at a vast majority of Tea Party rallies. now, if you softened it to there are klansmen that support the Tea Party, then there would be little debate.
no matter what movement you pickup, there are going to be parties that latch onto it that you would not want. this goes for the D's, the R's, the Libertarians, the Tea Party, the OWS, and anything really. It's just apart of the political game.
Quote: I also would like to see some charges brought against those MOST responsible for this recession.
For what?
Quote: If playing bongos and just sitting around being a pain in the ass helps to change these things then I support them.
As we have seen with our current president, cheering for change just for the sake of change isn't always a good thing. The biggest problem is that in the end, they are asking the people who caused the problems, national politicians and CEO's, to now fix the problem through bureaucracy and regulation... and as usual, they will do one of two things, they will either put a band-aid on an oozing flesh wound which will do no good.. or they will enact some knee jerk reaction and put a turniquet on it which will temporarily stop the bleeding but will eventually lead to gang green, loss of limbs and a host of other unintended consequences.... those are the 2 things we usually get from government... things that don't solve the problem or things that make it worse.
Quote: Call them lazy no-good-for-nothing hippies or whatever you want, they're looking for answers.
Everybody is looking for answers, but these people aren't even asking the right questions. All I've seen from their demands is they want free stuff from the government, they want the government to fix all of their problems with other peoples money. That's not an answer.
It's funny, on the OWS website it says they demand $1 trillion for infrastructure repairs and improvements... The Association of Building Contractors and the Association of General Contractors and several other infrastructure building groups have said we need at least $2 to $2.5 trillion to actually make good progress in fixing the problem...
If you read my original post in response to a video link posted by 1oldmutt you would see that it was intended that way. He (assuming oldmutt is a he) posted an obvious "Tea Party" video bashing the OWS protesters. I merely pointed that out as a source of NON Credible info as the Tea Party is openly against the OWS movement. I also stated that I could probably find a Klansman at a Tea Party rally and asked if that would make them all Klansmen. This was in response to him stating that Russia, Iran and China were behind it... Fox News worthy that...
Quote: I also would like to see some charges brought against those MOST responsible for this recession.
For what?
Quote: If playing bongos and just sitting around being a pain in the ass helps to change these things then I support them.
As we have seen with our current president, cheering for change just for the sake of change isn't always a good thing. The biggest problem is that in the end, they are asking the people who caused the problems, national politicians and CEO's, to now fix the problem through bureaucracy and regulation... and as usual, they will do one of two things, they will either put a band-aid on an oozing flesh wound which will do no good.. or they will enact some knee jerk reaction and put a turniquet on it which will temporarily stop the bleeding but will eventually lead to gang green, loss of limbs and a host of other unintended consequences.... those are the 2 things we usually get from government... things that don't solve the problem or things that make it worse.
Quote: Call them lazy no-good-for-nothing hippies or whatever you want, they're looking for answers.
Everybody is looking for answers, but these people aren't even asking the right questions. All I've seen from their demands is they want free stuff from the government, they want the government to fix all of their problems with other peoples money. That's not an answer.
It's funny, on the OWS website it says they demand $1 trillion for infrastructure repairs and improvements... The Association of Building Contractors and the Association of General Contractors and several other infrastructure building groups have said we need at least $2 to $2.5 trillion to actually make good progress in fixing the problem...
- For what? - Treason, Fraud, Theft, Theft by Deception... anything that has a chance of sticking. Heck I'd settle for Rape... after all they screwed the whole country without consent.
As for the other things you say I agree mostly. That's why these people need more voices like YOURS. They might not have it well thought out, but they are trying to do something... a little leadership with the right knowledge is all they lack.
Did I really say Russia, Iran and China were BEHIND it? No, I said they've thrown their support behind it. When these countries and the Neo Nazis and the American communists back it is it REALLY the best idea for the country? Im gonna doubt they have our best interest at heart. And our siiting POTUS now backs it!
There are good folks in this movement with good intentions/complaints and theirs overlap the Tea Parties, but I dont believe theyre the heart of this thing! Who's supporting this thing? Who's feeding these protestors? There's something big and ugly behind it looking to break/overthrow our system. (Something the Tea Party is NOT looking to do)
Quote: - For what? - Treason, Fraud, Theft, Theft by Deception... anything that has a chance of sticking. Heck I'd settle for Rape... after all they screwed the whole country without consent.
If they broke laws, then by all means, go get them... while you are at it, go get the politicians who encouraged it, supported it, allowed it, and ultimately gave them billions of dollars so they didn't have to suffer for it.
Quote: As for the other things you say I agree mostly. That's why these people need more voices like YOURS. They might not have it well thought out, but they are trying to do something... a little leadership with the right knowledge is all they lack.
They wouldn't like me. I would first take the microphone and announce that I'm a staunch believer in many of the objectives of the Tea Party principles.... and they would throw things at me. In that they are like a lot of the tea party folks, they don't want somebody to stand up there and make sense (not that I always do), they want somebody to stand up there and whip them into a frenzy with ridiculous talking points about how evil people with money are and how they are being cheated....
The government, which was designed for the people, has got into the hands of the bosses and their employers, the special interests. An invisible empire has been set up above the forms of democracy.
- Woodrow Wilson
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.
- Henry Ford
By rendering the labor of one, the property of the other, they cherish pride, luxury, and vanity on one side; on the other, vice and servility, or hatred and revolt.
- James Madison
This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it.
I'm curious, what do you see the Tea Party morphing into?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Woodrow Wilson???? Oh man...to me this is the man who more than ANYONE who has started this country on the path to destruction. It was Woodrow Wilson that started this Political Ruling Class that we have now. One that HAS to intrude itself into every aspect of our lives and try to "shape" us through their tax codes because we don't have the intelligence to do so for ourselves.
He is the first President that REALLY stuck the Government's nose into areas it never should have gotten into(as a major policy). And they never got their nose out. Instead they decided to further intrude by forcing their hands, feet, arms and legs in there as well.
The Governments job is NOT to shape society...It is to protect it. It is not to guide society...but to follow it. But instead we are ass-backwards. And both political parties are at fault.
I saw a thread long a go with this essay. I thought it very poignant. It is quite long so I will just post a link.
You keep making a comparison of a group (Tea Party) asking to stop spending, be fiscally responsible, no bailouts and be constitutionally correct to a group (OWS) wanting to move from Capatalism to Socialism, wants a free ride off someone elses labors, claims to want less intrusive government but is demanding that the government intrude in the wealthy's finances and give it to them! And this IS the crux of this movement despite there being some well intentioned folks marching for some of the same issues the Tea Party protests.
One look at how each group has conducted itself speaks volumes.
BTW: Im out. Going hunting for the next 6 days! I fully expect you fine gentlemen to have this and a few more world issues cleared up in the next week!
Quote: I'm curious, what do you see the Tea Party morphing into?
The movement was neutered very early on, and became a voting bloc of the GOP as quickly as it began.
A movement that had begun under the pretense of less government, less spending, less taxation and Constitutional government, almost overnight was taken over by FOX and the GOP, and all of those things - if there was any seriousness in them to begin with - went out the window.
Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck began to give keynote speeches at rallies, candidates were backed who had histories of voting to increase spending and government, and what may have been a movement became a campaign gimmick. The result was business as usual. They willingly became a part of what they'd stood against.
This is one of my favorite threads in awhile. The irony is thick enough to cut with a knife, really.
I believe it was DC that pointed out these two factions are looking for change within an institution that caused the problems. He, of course, leans more towards government being at fault than private business, but he's correct to point out that looking to the government or the CEO's is like asking the guy who shot you to call 911.
I mean ... what do you want, really? The government to step in and fix things? We've seen what happens there. They don't fix things. And private business? If left to their own devices, they're downright parasitic.
I think the Tea Party started out as an anti-tax protest that adopted Ron Paul's philosophies on reducing the size of government.
Then the likes of Sarah Palin (who I absolutely can't stand) got hold of the reigns, drawing in a ton of hicks and racists with her appeal to... well, hicks and racists.
Then guys like Glenn Beck helped entrench the republican party (who are currently owned by big business) and started morphing the platform to represent conservative christain republican values.
Then they started backing other political candidates and adopted the just say NO to everything Republican stance, which is MAJORLY responsible for the lack of action in the do-nothing-congress. To sum it up, I think they're a bunch of idiots.
I like the question all taxes aspect, I don't mind the no taxes aspect... but at times you have to raise taxes. I don't mind the "constitutional law" aspects. I dislike all the politicians that have been backed by them. I can't for the life of me figure out why they won't back Ron Paul. I don't like the religion (any religion) in politics. I don't think there is room form the racism and bigotry in politics.
I see a movement that is now just an extension of the problem. The Tea Party was sold out or hijacked by bible thumpers, Reagan/Bush republicans and Big Business (and Fox News). As far as I'm concerned the Tea Party stands for nothing.
I saw a bunch of people who want lower taxes, smaller government, and a return to Constitutional government. There are always a few fringe types .... but that was the predominant message I got.
They seemed to drive the Republicans to say "No", not the other way around.
Oh well .... to each their own.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Then the likes of Sarah Palin (who I absolutely can't stand) got hold of the reigns, drawing in a ton of hicks and racists with her appeal to... well, hicks and racists.
But all these hicks and racists wanted was change... and in your previous post about OWS you said it doesn't really matter that they don't know what they want, they want change and that's a good thing... what's the difference?
Quote: Then guys like Glenn Beck helped entrench the republican party (who are currently owned by big business) and started morphing the platform to represent conservative christain republican values.
That's a lot of adjectives to describe values... conservative... christian... republican... There are conservatives, then there are people who call themselves conservatives... Christians span a wide array of beliefs within religion and how that faith should guide government.. .and Republican, who knows what that means these days...
What I do know is that the republican party really doesn't like Glenn Beck and he rides them hard and often..
Quote: Then they started backing other political candidates and adopted the just say NO to everything Republican stance, which is MAJORLY responsible for the lack of action in the do-nothing-congress. To sum it up, I think they're a bunch of idiots.
The vast majority of the decision congress has made have been bad.. so you want them to enact bad policy faster? I would rather they do nothing than do bad crap just to say they did something.
Quote: I don't think there is room form the racism and bigotry in politics.
Me either. I think hating people because they are black or because they are gay or because they are conservative or because they are successful is equally wrong.
Quote: No, I said they've thrown their support behind it. When these countries and the Neo Nazis and the American communists back it is it REALLY the best idea for the country?
Groups like that recognize that this is a growing movement and they want to piggyback on it. They want to piggyback on it and infiltrate it and turn it towards their own causes. That is why these groups are coming out in support of it - they hope to swell their own numbers by piggybacking this cause.
Quote: Wow ..... because I didn't see any of that stuff.
Probably because when it comes to the Tea Party, you seem to be blindfolded.
Quote: I saw a bunch of people who want lower taxes, smaller government, and a return to Constitutional government. There are always a few fringe types .... but that was the predominant message I got.
I only went to two rallies, in Cincinnati and one in New Jersey.
The one one in Cincinnati was to be headlined by Sean Hannity, a man who has for years championed increased government scope and power as well as reckless spending to the point of being little more than a mouthpiece for the GOP). FOX pulled him from the event when they found out they were charging money to hear him speak and they weren't getting a cut. The speakers then became Jonah Goldberg and Bill Cunningham, a pair of Hannity clones who also had a history of championing increased government scope and power, as well reckless spending.
The signs of the crowd were predominantly nonsensical - pictures of Obama as the Joker, signs decrying socialist takeover, etc. Parked cars were littered with Palin/McCain or Bush/Cheney stickers. There was plenty of GOP literature distributed.
Now, I can't speak from firsthand experience, but from what I've seen the other rallies seemed to be of the same flavor -- nonsense signs about government socialism, death panels, Obama being evil, take our country back, etc., etc.
The goal seemed not to achieve less government or less spending, but rather to remove Obama and the Democrats from power.
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They seemed to drive the Republicans to say "No", not the other way around.
It's amazing how the major news media .... who picked up on like the one racist sign at any of 30 events, managed to miss all of that.
Also, do the anti-semitic rants of many of the "wall street protesters" make that movement racist? There have been a LOT of such instances. Are those people all racist?
Do those calling for the violent overthrow of the US government, and the murder of bankers represent the "wall street protesters"?
How about protesters fighting with police?
Because I have seen a lot of those types of things. The general media isn't showing them ..... but the nice thing about You Tube and other internet outlets is that they bypass the media.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I rarely use the word hate when talking about anyone. I think it is a very strong word.
As for my adjectives; Conservatives I don't mind so much, they're often the voice of reason. But sometimes when you sprinkle in religion and hardcore party lines, reason goes out the window. Since Bush 2, the Republicans are being led by these types.
I used to call myself Republican (Reagan era) but I don't identify with the new Republican Party.
I rarely use the word hate when talking about anyone. I think it is a very strong word.
As for my adjectives; Conservatives I don't mind so much, they're often the voice of reason. But sometimes when you sprinkle in religion and hardcore party lines, reason goes out the window. Since Bush 2, the Republicans are being led by these types.
I used to call myself Republican (Reagan era) but I don't identify with the new Republican Party.
The real voice of reason is a person that sees both sides of an argument and works hard to find common ground..
extremists in both parties will never be the voice of reason.. never.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
I would rather they do nothing than do bad crap just to say they did something.