DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum NBA teams and the lockout

J/C...

Quite frankly, the only people I feel sorry for are those who work at the arenas on a game day or full time basis. Outside of them I could give a flip - I like the NBA but I could live comfortably without it potentially forever.

NBA is now and always will be a distant 4th to me behind MLB, NFL and college football.

This whole plantation analogy in sports upsets me more than just about anything. These bums - players and owners and agents and anyone else involved - just have no idea how fortunate they are.

Mannix details where the players/owners are apart.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/wr...p;sct=hp_t12_a5

the biggest contention points (outside of BRI which is the real one and the one which changes based on the other 'concessions' from either side):

1. annual raise limits (players want 7.5% for own players, 6.5% for FAs --- owners want 5.5% and 3%)
2. sign-n-trades (owners want no luxury tax teams to be able to do them)
3. luxury tax (owners want more penalties built in than the players want plus extra MLE rules)

I think the rest are fluff that could easily be negotiated at the end (rookie contracts having performance escalators, trade exceptions, salary cap holds, qualifying offers)

they have said there would be some weighting to more recent seasons.

and, also that they (Bucher the latest) are full of it. noone wants to talk about that on the record because it is admitting the season is lost which neither side wants to do because of the PR hit it would levy.

Bucher is the main one that i've heard from, but to be honest, I really haven't been paying super close attention.

I had not heard about weighing the most recent season more, that's good news. Thanks for that tidbit.

The worst PR move would be to do anything to allow teams like Miami and New York to have any advantage to get a high draft pick...

People think(know) the NBA is all about the major markets as is, but if you start helping teams that have basically circumvented the system to stockpile superstars, get even younger good players...

Well then whats the point to having 30 teams?

Quote:

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Well then whats the point to having 30 teams?

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Somebody has to be the Washington Generals.

What's the point of having 30 teams right now?

Stern practically looked the other way when LBJ, Bosh and Wade schemed up how to play together. Lebron came out and said they planned this in China during the Olympics and that Reilly met with them while they were under contract with other teams. Hence the tampering charges that Gilbert was mulling over.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the NY's and Mia's ended up with higher draft picks.

That last 3 years thing seems so shady.

I'm not saying the Cavs should get the first pick simply because they were supposed to get it last year, but this last 3 years scenario seems like they tailored this to screw the Cavs who are a tiny nba market who don't draw nice ratings, and to help the knicks who just became a playoff team, as well as a team like the heat which isn't a major market but is the biggest draw for casual fans.

I don't know how it should be done, but this hardly seems fair especially after how we got jobbed.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u55q1w.gif

I guarantee no deal will be done before Christmas.

I hate the Nba, have for years, it's not that I want people to be hurt by the strike, but, just for my own selfish reasons... The only thing the Nba is to me is worthless chatter on the sports radio station when I'm trying to hear info on the Browns, other NFL teams, College Football games, or other sports I care about. ( none usually)

Do I really need to hear how great Kobe is again? NO! or How they compare to the all time greats? I think I saw every way a basketball can go through a hoop by the time I was 15 years old anyway.
The college game is better anyway, probably because of the tournament, but I don't follow that either, except in passing.
All the excitement and competition you will ever find on a basketball court, can be found in the defensive backfield vs receivers in a NFL passing play. Any game where one team scores 102 points and wins by 2 points, could have figured it out a better way.
This is all just my selfish opinion, I don't expect anyone to agree, just trying to shed some light on why I'm rooting for a long drawn out lockout.
The happiest day in the NBA for me each year is the day it ends. The happiest it has made me is the time Stockton, and Malone took M Jordan to a 7th game, because I wanted to see Jordan get a loss, because everybody was soo enamoured with him. reject the offer players.

My friend the whole NBA is rigged. Look at the ref scandal, people have to be naive to believe he is the only one. It's more rigged than wrestling. Places in the Midwest need to get rid of Nba teams and focus on the Nhl. Stars only go to big markets or warm weather. Not Minnesota, Milwaukee or Cleveland.

SEASON OVER, SEE YA NEXT SUMMER

If the league is rigged, why have the Knicks been crap for so long, and why did they allow a dynasty to take place out of San Antonio, TX?

The Donaghy thing just doesn't bother me from the standpoint of the league. They can't babysit these guys 24/7, I think he had a pretty solid record before he was hired. The guy just got involved with the wrong people, and what he did was still horrible.

He didn't fix wins and losses, he affected point spreads, and totals.

It's not like he was trying to make sure that team A won the championship, etc...

Don't get me wrong, it's still uncacceptable, but I find it hard to believe he was working with Stern to make sure the league went as they wanted it to.

But man, I would love to get myself some game tapes from the games that he 100% influenced. I think that would be fascinating, I know that the Cavs actually did play one of those games, and I believe it was him influencing a total.

All I really care about is that they go from the "1 and done" to the "2 and through" rule

Give me two years of these Kentucky freshmen

From what I have been reading, the moderate owners are losing strength among the overall owners group .... and the more hard line owners are starting to move to the forefront.

That could have something to do with it, if perception is, as it probably should be, that the offers start going down from here on out, and that the owners are prepared to lose a season. Are the players prepared to lose one of their very limited years of earning power? I bet that there are a lot of players on the edge who are thinking that they better get paid this year .... because they may not have a team next year.

yeah, the biggest thing for the leverage is that the owners may make 50% BRI in this deal, but then they subtract all of their costs and they can conceivably make that money 'forever'

the players have no costs to deduct, so they are losing more per game in the short run. and they have less years to play, so they are losing a much bigger % of their money in the long run.

that's an awful lot of leverage.

Plus, with some teams legitimately losing money with every game they played under the old agreement, not playing any games with that agreement (or a worse agreement) is a win for them. If they play no games under a bad agreement, they lose no money.

The players are not going to get teams that are currently losing money to agree to a deal that ensures that they will continue to lose money. That would be idiotic.

Has there been any thought process on how the order of the draft will go if the season is cancelled???

Someoene actually mentioned it before, nothing is certain, because it can't be without a CBA in place, but it's possible that the draft will be re-ordered based on the last 3 years of every franchise, in that case, the Cavs are screwed (back to back 60+ win seasons before last year's lotto season)

It's not set in stone, but it's a possibility, and it sucks if you're a Cavs fan.

Looks like another year without a ring for LeBron.

Too bad - so sad.

Been thinking of this lately - how come David Stern doesn't get more heat as being bum of a commish?

Selig is the all time whipping boy for whatever reason, but baseball is on the verge of another deal that keeps baseball going. Goodell may be viewed as the best of the bunch, but I think you could put anyone in charge of football and they'd have to try hard to screw it up... the lockout meant nothing in the end, fans held no grudge and everyone has moved on business as usual. Bettman (sp?) and the NHL are what they are - the greatest sport ever to it's fans or completely irrelevant to everyone else, me included - I don't think the commish of that league matters in the grand scheme.

But Stern is now lording over the second significant work stoppage in a little over a decade - this one may lead to no season at all. Their have been rumblings of crooked refs and shady lottery riggings over the years. No matter what he does, he can't stop great players from loading up on a small group of teams and that makes about 1/2 of the league basically irrelevant from day one.

People complain about MLB and small market teams have no chance - but they really do, even for a 2-4 year window, if they draft/trade/sign right; the NBA draft is good for only a couple good players a year, trades are based more than anything on clearing cap space and equaling out money and as I said - good FA's primarily aren't signing in Cleveland, or Sacramento, or Milwaukee or Toronto.

Plus look at the playoffs - I don't know if it's happened in the NBA, but when's the last time a 5-8 seed won the Championship? Look at the last few years in the NFL and MLB - the Steelers and Packers have won as Wild Cards, the Cardinals this year won as a Wild Card (I look at the Wild Card as the equivalent of the 5-8 seed in basketball).

Just curious why Stern has been historically hailed as this great commish and more people aren't on him like they constantly are on Selig. It's not like Stern would have mattered at all had players like MJ, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Shaq, Dirk and others not come along and his league has been in the worst shape for over a decade, at least labor wise.

The players run that league. Unlike in football, baseball, or hockey, you have 1 superstar on your team, you're in business. Football is similar when it comes to great quarterbacks, but not to the extent of superstars in the nba. Baseball is more team oriented then them all. You could have the best pitcher, and best hitter in the game, and not win anything.

Stern, and the owners deserve a good portion of the blame, for allowing trios like those guys with the heat to be on 1 team. But I do blame the players for the most part. This current bunch only wants to play in certain cities, and markets. They all want to play together. JUst look at guys like chris webber, and mike bibby 10 years ago. They accepted playing in a market like sacramento, and made them perennial championship contenders. Now you have stiffs like howard, paul, anthony, james, that don't want to play in the mid markets.

I've said it a thousand of times. If the owners don't win on this one, they need to contract half the league, and just have teams in large markets, with warm weather cities. It's just not fair to the fans of sacramento, cleveland, toronto, milwaukee, etc...

Stern may lose his job because of this. He does not have a long term contract with the league, he is a year to year commissioner.

I don't think he's as bad of a commish as some think he is. I think the league was set up to be fair. I think this situation is on both sides, both need to give.

Selig is the whipping boy, and has avoided what the nfl and nba are going through because he's been the whipping boy of the union. They have all the power. They continue to let the league be run by the major markets. All sports in a way are, but baseball is the most ridiculous. The big markets get to spend every year and compete, the others have to build up for 2 and 3 year runs. You're good, and then you must sell off your pieces. Attendance backs that up as well.

I'm ok with Goodell, he has done some nice things, avoiding losing games this year was great, but I hate that the rules he has stressed on hitting players is too gray of an area. I saw hits that didn't get called that should have. I saw a few clean hits over the weekend that got flagged. I watched one guy hit his own player with his helmet and get flagged.

I think the need to let the players have a little fun when the score. Yes, no pulling out a cell phone or a sharpie, but I'm still shaking my head at that bogus flag that probably should have cost us the Dolphin game.

And Bettman? If you watched hockey, you'd know any time the cup was raised in a city that understands and knows the league, he gets booed the minute he steps on the ice. He has also done a few nice things (Versus has worked out well, soon to be NBC sports, that's huge, the rules change also have made the league fun again) but they lost an entire season, they overexpanded the league (sorry cbj fans) and the guy just doesn't know anything about the sport or the league.

I'm loving this whole thing..... watching the golden goose eat itself is always funny to me

I'm also sincerely hoping that the entire season is lost because I'm loving it just being another year of Nothing for LeBron.

Here's the problem that the NBA has though.

College basketball is HUGE. You can watch college basketball all week long and see great games. You don't even have to wait for one day of the week for a game ..... they are on all week long.

College football is on mainly on Saturdays. Sundays are for the NFL. If the NFL is missing, there is a big part of the weekend missing.

College baseball is not all that big as far as viewership. People who enjoy baseball typically want to watch MLB.

NBA basketball? Eh ..... if they aren't on I can watch any of 5 college games instead on most nights. No biggie.

I love my NBA, I know a lot of others are smiling at all this, but it disappoints me. How many of you would feel this way had Lebron stayed in Cleveland? It'd be looked at as Cleveland being cursed because we could be that much closer to the coveted parade, and the league folding for a year would be another notch in the Cleveland curse belt.

I like college basketball, I feel like I should enjoy it more, but it's just so hard for me to get into with their regular season. These games don't feel big at all.

I could understand if you're someone like Bryan (TopDawg16) who follows Kentucky, being into the regular season, because that's the big thing for Kentucky fans.

I enjoy OSU hoops, I want all the Ohio teams to do well, your Xaviers, Cle States, all the MAC schools, etc... But I just can't get into it until all the chips are on the table.

Speaking of college football, I love these early week MAC games. Seriously do these coaches just give the defenses a few days off beforehand? Every game is in the 80's.

You can make the same argument for the NBA that the season is too long and there are a ton of meaningless games, and I agree, but I would rather watch a mid-season Lakers/Heat or a OKC/Mavs matchup than Duke/UNC or Uconn/Syracuse.

That's not to say that there's anything wrong with that, It's just not my cup of tea.

I probably should be more into it, as my mom enjoys sports casually, but really really enjoys college basketball every year.

The nba is a young man's game. You might have some folks over 35 catch a few games a year, but the hardcore fans, are probably in the 14-35 range. Just look at the cavs for example. Before Lebron you might have had a few, young hardcore fans follwoing, then everyone of all ages became a fan.

Baseball probably has the most elderly people following the game. Just go to a baseball game, never seen so many senior citizens at a sporting event.

Baseball is dying for me. I actually did catch a bit of the WS this year, but not whole games.

I haven't been to a game in probably 4 years. Baseball to me is something to have on the television or radio while I'm doing something else. It's hard for me to sit there and watch 20 seconds between pitches for 30 minutes. Football is the same with the amount of time between plays, but it's freakin football.

I think that's why soccer has grown on me. Yes the games are primarily low scoring, but they don't stop other than halftime and for injuries and goals, but there is a wonderful flow to that game that no other sport has.

The thing I do enjoy about college hoops is that the games are fast. That thing is over in less than 2 hours.

If the Browns were an EPL team they would have been relegated a long long time ago.

If I had to rank them.

1. NCAA Football: I love the Browns a little more than the Buckeyes, but as a whole I love the product that we get on Saturdays. A big Saturday night game between 2 huge teams is unmatched in any other sport/league's regular season. I think not having to get up and go to work the next day probably has a little to do with it.

2. NFL: It's a close second. I can watch just about any matchup. Nothing is ever certain. Team A can be favored by 10 points on a Monday night and Team B can easily pull it off. I think the NFL has failed horribly at getting good prime time matchups. PIT/BAL 2 weeks ago was good, the opening game between GB and NOR was good, other than that it's been dog crap. Can't wait for a weeks from now when we get Seattle and the Rams on Monday night. I'm not joking, I wish I were. Go look it up.

3. NBA: Goes back to being a little kid watching the old Celtics/Lakers Bird/Magic days with my dad, the Cavs were really good when I was little, and I was a giant Bulls hater in the 90's. It's an awesome league and I'm sure you all don't agree.

4. NHL: Some probably think I'm crazy that I stuck the NHL 4th considering I play the sport, but the regular season is way too long, plus it does nothing but drive me crazy because I end up wanting to throw my gear on and play. The NHL playoffs by far has the best post-season. Same format as the nba with 16 teams, but 1v8 is never a sure thing and is almost always never a one sided series. It's the most intense 3 months in sports.

Now it gets tough...

5. I have to go European soccer. I will try and catch a game a week. I enjoy Chelsea and anyone playing Man U. I love watching Barcelona play. The Italian league is cool although it doesn't seem like their fans are as passionate about it as the EPL and La Liga fans are. The Champions league and Cup is cool too. I liken it as to what college football would be like if there were a playoff. The World Cup also falls in this category and I'm glued to the set when that goes on.

6. NCAA hoops: I would have put MLB on here except I only watch the Indians and don't watch the post-season if the Tribe ain't playing. The tournament, as we all know, is awesome. Brackets are fun, and the first weekend is always the best, tons of buzzer beaters. wall to wall games for like 16 straight hours.

7. MLB: see above

8. Golf: The majors especially the Masters. Golf is also the best sport to watch in HD.

9.Olympics: hockey and basketball. I try and watch curling but still don't fully get how it works.

10. Boxing: Losing interest every fight. The only thing that can save the sport is Pacman/Mayweather, and 1. I don't know if we will ever see it and 2. I don't even know if that's enough.

NASCAR, WNBA, MMA: Have never watched a match/game/race of any. I think the idea of NASCAR is cool, with the pit team and all that but I don't understand how people can sit for hours watching them drive.

If you had to re-order this based on team and not league, it would go Browns-Buckeyes(F)-Cavs-Tribe-Buckeyes (BB)

My order:

NFL.

Nascar. (you don't understand how people can sit and watch? I couldn't either. Then I started racing go karts.)

The rest? Eh.

Baseball, puts me to sleep - like immediately.
NBA - who cares.

WNBA? Never watched a single game.

Soccer? We have soccer? I think of soccer the way you think of nascar. Who wants to watch people run around for a few hours?

Golf? On tv? Seriously? I think baseball is boring. Golf on t.v. is nauseating. It falls behind bowling actually.

College basketball - while I don't watch much, I do love it.

NHL - I don't follow. I'll give credit for the action, but I don't watch it. Never will.

I disagree about the golf. They have cameras at all 18 holes, so there is always a shot that they can show you a lot of times they have so many that some of them aren't even brought to you live.

And I think more in golf than in any other game, no meltdown is as epic as the guy with a lead on Sunday who just completely falls apart under the pressure.

my rankings are pretty easy

1. NFL - Browns + fantasy football + knowledge of sport (from playing and watching most intently - or perceived knowledge )

2. MLB - and it's not close. i get the MLB.TV package every year, i rewatch games/moments or just have a game going on virtually non-stop from April through October. Baseball is my life's background noise.

3. NBA - love the no-hand-check rules. love how they still let it get physical in the paint. both of those make it far superior to the college game (plus having less time-outs and better talent of course).

4. College Football - I like the differing styles of offense and defense that are not as prevalent in the NFL. alot of it is watching individual players rather than teams. i'll watch the Buckeyes, but almost prefer to DVR and FF to get through those games quickly where I want to soak in the NFL games. Bowl season is fun though especially because I usually take vacation at the end of the year and am doing a bunch of random chores around the house.

-------drop off------------

5. College Basketball - too many bad games. too many brutal styles to watch. but, when you get that good matchup of elite teams, it can be special. plus, March Madness is awesome even if it renders the entirely too long regular season moot.

6. Olympics - it's a sport my wife likes to watch and I am fully onboard with watching sports with her. so, she'll watch an Olympic hockey or snowboarding with me and I'll watch gymnastics/figure skating with her.

7. World Cup - tons of passion and I work with alot of international guys who are fully invested. i never get too worked up though.

8. MMA - I like how UFC has toned down the brutality recently but I am not paying big $$$ to watch sports when so many are on free TV. So, the more fights that get to FOX, SPIKE, etc. the more I will watch and this could move up the list.

9. Everything else (Golf, Tennis, NHL, NASCAR) - If it's on the television, then I'll pay attention for a few minutes or even watch one event. But, I will never care if I miss anything from them.