Quote: Our OL is FINE and only needs to gel...they way it's set up they'll play together for the next 3-4 seasons except RT...how about we take a real NFL QB talent for a change and see how that works? Colt isn't the only problem but by far the biggest we have on Offense...anyone recognized that we have no running game since DCs have the gameplan against Colt? He is not able to re-adjust and since then we have no running game, no good OL although BOTH were fine BEFORE our supposed franchise QB gor figured out...this trend started late last season and opponents STILL aren't doing anything differently...but yeah, let's keep the bum and change all other parts...unreal
DJ...NO, the Browns Oline "is not fine"...
Answer this...how would you rate Lauvao's play this season...exceptional... average..or...below average?
How would you rate Pinkston's play this season...exceptional... average..or...below average?
How about Pashos play this season...exceptional... average..or...below average?
I would rate Lauvao "average"
Pinkston "average to below average"
Pashos "average"
What say you?
Can the Oline get better?...sure they can...but at this time, the Browns Oline is not giving McCoy enough time to read, go through his progressions and allow him the time and room in the pocket to step up and deliver a pass.
So far this season, the Browns offensive line, as a unit, their play is barely average. I have no problem with Joe Thomas and Mack...they are playing up to their ability.
Looking at the level of competition the Browns have played against, our 3 wins come against teams with a combined record of 2 wins..17 losses. As the Browns get into the tougher part of their schedule, McCoy better hope his offensive line "gels" fast.
The Browns total offensive ranking is 25th in the NFL...29th in rushing ...24th in passing....IMO, those stats are a direct result and reflection on the quality of the Browns offensive line play.
Why is it hard for some to understand the basic principle of offensive football?
A teams skilled players (qb, rb, wr, te) will not play to their potential if the Offensive line cannot protect the QB long enough to read, go through progressions and have the time and needed space to step up and deliver an accurate pass....and if the Offensive line cannot open holes for the RBs, the running game will be ineffective...
The Browns QBs,WRs, TEs and RBs will play no better than their Offensive line plays...interesting how that works out, isn't it?
The 49ers game should be a good measuring stick to judge the progress of the Browns offensive line. If the Oline can protect McCoy and open holes for the RBs, the Browns have a chance to win.
I am willing to bet that Holmgren is looking at McCoy on a weekly basis and saying to himself: "Oh crap, and I put myself on the line for this???".
Sorry, but McCoy has regressed from last season. I am certain that if fans see it that these guys who are "QB gurus" see it as well. Now maybe they can get McCoy turned around. Part of me doubt that .... but that's just my opinion. The fact remains that Holmgren originally made statements saying that it took a full 2 years to find out what you have in a young QB and that was what we were going to do ...... and now, just 6 games into McCoy's 2nd season, we're seeing signs of waffling.
If I'm McCoy, I damn sure know that I better step up my game or I'll be "the most popular guy in Cleveland" before too long.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I watched the presser, and i didn't take that out of it.
he said you have to find that "guy" to lead the offense...that "guy" could be mccoy
he said he would evaluate mccoy at the end of the season...i would be willing to bet they evaluate every player every week, and at the end of the year to see if they need to upgrade.
At some point they are going to have to let someone learn the offense as a qb...that may or may not be mccoy based on how he grades out, and his skill set, upside...ect.
rest assured, if he don't think mccoy can cut it as a viable starter then he will be replaced....he knows the grades....the plays...who screwed up each play
maybe mccoy doesn't screw up as much as we think he does....maybe he sucks, and is the whole problem....none of us can do anything but guess...
once...just once i would like to see this "team" fight thru adversity without the plug getting pulled to soon and wholesale changes made, starting the whole stupid process over again.
holmgren might eat breakfast at ihop, but i doubt he's waffling.....mccoy will have his full backing and support, right up until the point that he decides that he can't cut it as a starter.
Quote: ...Holmgren originally made statements saying that it took a full 2 years to find out what you have in a young QB and that was what we were going to do ...
While all the rest is true and accurate, that bolded part he never said. He never said we were giving McCoy 2 years as our starting QB, although he did say it takes 32 games to properly evaluate a young quarterback.
I do get where it sounds like Holmgren is waffling on the 32 game thing. But he never said "That's what we're going to do".
What he has said in his recent presser is that they'll evaluate Colt at the end of the season. That could go either way; give him more time or bring in another QB. If you listen to all his comments on the QB position he sounds like he could go either way.
I don't have a stake in either position. Although I feel Colt and the receivers are equally, currently overwhelmed in the system I don't care who the QB is just so they get behind one who can do the job. If that's Colt great. Good story. If it's someone else, great. Good story.
mccoy has not regressed from last season. he's being asked to do different things, yes. he's not nearly as accurate or decisive as he needs to be, yes.
but, I think alot of people are remembering the good moments from Colt last year and forgetting the bad ones.
To me it sounds like backtracking ...... but maybe it's just me.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Answer this...how would you rate Lauvao's play this season...exceptional... average..or...below average?
How would you rate Pinkston's play this season...exceptional... average..or...below average?
How about Pashos play this season...exceptional... average..or...below average?
I would rate Lauvao "average"
Pinkston "average to below average"
Pashos "average"
What say you?
Can the Oline get better?...sure they can...but at this time, the Browns Oline is not giving McCoy enough time to read, go through his progressions and allow him the time and room in the pocket to step up and deliver a pass.
So far this season, the Browns offensive line, as a unit, their play is barely average. I have no problem with Joe Thomas and Mack...they are playing up to their ability.
Thomas - above AVG to good Pinky - below AVG (which is ok for a rook) Mack - below AVG Lauvao - bad Pashos - below AVG
Overall our OL has played below AVG....you gotta understand though that "below AVG" for me means 18th to 24th best league wide though, which still qualifies as decent....I think our QB play has been bad (24th to 32nd), thus worse than our OL play...Mack is far away from playing "up to his ability"...watch the tape, it's not lying
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
THAT, good sir, is definitely a matter of opinion.
Please allow me to tell you what Holmgren said without saying it: McCoy has been part of the problem, has to this point in his short career been a disappointment, isn't gifted enough to deserve as much time as an elite talent, and is a player whose long-term outlook is so dicey that it's forcing Mike to backtrack on his own words.
You make a guy like Holmgren look bad, you aren't long for your current position.
I've found a great admiration for the 3-categories of Colt McCoy. That chit is an instant classic. On that scale, I'm about one more idiotic throw from joining Django on the "my mind is made up and ain't a damned thing you can do to change it" train.
I'll paint a scenario that remains a possibility where he doesn't get that long: McCoy stinks it up the next month as badly as he has so far this year, yet the Browns manage to win some games because of defense or a special teams TD. If we start heading towards the home-stretch, and McCoy is just a dolt it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Wallace. He has more experience than McCoy, and he's a better passer than McCoy. Neither of those statements are debatable. They are factual. The ONLY reason you stick with McCoy is because Wallace is at his ceiling, while McCoy supposedly isn't. If it's a playoff push that we're facing, and the QB just flat isn't getting it done some game that we really need to win, you can easily see Wallace get the nod.
Deep down, you can bet McCoy knows exactly what the Walrus said.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: Thomas - above AVG to good Pinky - below AVG (which is ok for a rook) Mack - below AVG Lauvao - bad Pashos - below AVG
Thomas... Excellent Pinky.. below average but learning and getting better. Mack... Average Lauvao... Average but learning and getting better Pashos... bad, bad, bad and getting beat more than a one armed boxer.
The Browns have yet to have a 100 yard game from a RB or WR...6 games in..thats pretty sad... in the NFL...its all about making plays,or getting played. Joe Thomas is having a good year..but not a "Joe Thomas" year. Maybe the absence of Steinbach is affecting his play. Todd Pinkston is struggling like a mid rd typical pick would. Alex Mack has been solid..but his pass blocking needs some help Shaun Lavauo...just another in a long line of Browns RG's who can't even play to the level of average. Not very intelligent. Tony Pashos....he's awful. His back ups are worse..12 years in and the Browns have yet to find a long term answer at RT.
again Heckart went too young in the interior.Teams are killing the Browns up the middle..which affects the run game and McCoy's development..
I don't believe Heckert went too young "up the middle." It's perfectly acceptable to expect Lauvao to make strides in his 2nd year. It's also not as though Heckert should have anticipated losing Stein for the year. Pashos? That's a different story.......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: To me it sounds like backtracking ...... but maybe it's just me.
The only thing I was disagreeing over was the "that's what we're going to do" comment regarding the 32 games. Apparently many took it that way even though Holmgren may have been speaking in general rather than about McCoy in particular.
Of course if your young QB is stinking it up consistently and doesn't appear to be improving then you're not going to stubbornly play him for 2 years just because you said "32 games".
Two seasons for a kid who is stinking it up but showing consistent improvement and progress is not all that far-fetched. If Holmgren don't think that's the case with Colt then we'll have somebody new next season and I like his odds of picking a franchise QB if he's choosing in the 1st round.
Do I think fans ever blamed the o-line for Dan Marino's not getting back to a Superbowl. I wonder how many OC's and Qb coaches, and head coaches Marino had to deal with in Miami? Maybe it is just the system that is the problem, I wonder if Marino ever had to struggle through the west coast offense and it's lack of play making ability.
Face it. If a quarterback can't win one or two games a year on his arm alone, then He's not the quarterback you should look to the future for.
Can Colt McCoy win one or two games, ? Can Colt McCoy win 1 game the rest of the year, with his arm alone? Well Maybe, but he's gonna have to throw more than 7 yards a throw to do it.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Quote: Can Colt McCoy win one or two games, ? Can Colt McCoy win 1 game the rest of the year, with his arm alone? Well Maybe, but he's gonna have to throw more than 7 yards a throw to do it.
Well, he won the Miami game with his arm. Let's see if he wins 1 or 2 more.
Quote: Thomas - above AVG to good Pinky - below AVG (which is ok for a rook) Mack - below AVG Lauvao - bad Pashos - below AVG
DJ...you post your take on the quality of the Browns offensive line play (above)...yet claim out Offensive line is "fine"...they just need to gel.
The Browns offensive line is "not fine" and hasn't been close to fine since Steinbach was lost for the season.
This is what the Browns Oline was supposed to look like this season... ...Thomas, Steinbach, Mack, Lauvao, Pashos...
......Lauvao, who started only one game in 2010 was supposed to be the only change to the Oline. Just starting his second season, with little experience, I considered him on a "rookie level"...thus, learning on the job.
Pinkston was drafted as the eventual replacement at RT, given Pashos inability to stay healthy. The Browns front office did not put a high priority on drafting Oline in the 2011 draft, drafting Pinkston in the 5th round. He was not being drafted as a starter, but as an "eventual starter" who would have time to learn the NFL game during his rookie year and possibly taking over at RT next season.
Steinie goes down and Pashos is again injured and the front office's "pie in the sky" plan for the Oline is on life support. Now the Browns are forced to start 1 pure rookie at LG and 1 almost a rookie at RG and the front office scrambles to find a RT picking up, Cousins and Hicks.
Given the new offense, HC/OC changes that have been made in the Browns offensive line, plus the Oline has a new playbook too, some still want to know what is wrong with Colt McCoy.
Next year, the Browns front office must put a higher priority on the Oline. Stenie is aging, Pinkston and Lauvao may or may not be starting material and Pashos is used up..at a minimum, the Browns need to draft a OG and a RT...and they can't wait until the later rounds if they are looking for starting material.
I looked at the Patriots offensive line for a comparison of what a "playoff caliber Oline" is supposed to look like...watch
and notice, Brady has time to drop back, set his feet, scan through his progressions, and deliver an accurate pass...and in most of these plays, he is not hurried in the face of a pass rush or about to be leveled as soon as he let's go of the pass.
If the Browns are going to complete in the playoffs, they must have an offensive line capable of protecting our QB, just as the Patriots Oline protects Brady....would you agree?
Also, the Patriots have two 1st round picks and two 2nd round picks on their roster. The Patriots front office puts a very high priority on building their Oline via the draft and obviously, they have had success with that philosophy.
Offensive football is not rocket science...first build an Offensive line, the rest will fall into place.
I wonder if the Browns Qb suddenly put together 3 games in a row, maybe 3 games out of 20, but 3 in a row. In those games if he were to complete 85% of his passes, and raise his per pass distance to close to 20 yds per catch. (6 or 7 td's and no ints )
Then after those 3 games return back to what we see from a Browns Qb over the last 5 years. Would the O-line have been the ones to step their game up for that 3 game stretch and then return back to letting protection suffer, causing the Qb too much of a burden? Would the Qb have been the one to step up his game for that 3 game stretch?
I think it would be the coaching causing the Qb to lead the offense, so they ALL would have had to have stepped up their games for that 3 game stretch, at least in comparision to the opponents of those 3 games.
But mostly the quarterback, more than the offensive line, I mean he has the ball in his hands every play.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
it is the job of the QB to try and overcome any inefficiencies in our offense.. whether it be, oline, rb, or wr/te.. Sometimes the QB just has to make plays. Get the ball to the receiver and they should catch it.
It seems, the "our offensive line is fine" group, is suddenly "silent".
It only took two offensive plays yesterday "to prove" that the Browns offensive line...IS NOT FINE !
The Browns RBs ran for 36 yds yesterday...the Browns offensive line ...IS NOT FINE !
Those Browns fans wanting to blame Colt McCoy for all the ills of this offensive unit...what more do want McCoy to do...block?...line up at RB?
...BTW, McCoy was the second leading rusher for the Browns yesterday...running for his life to avoid getting his head taken off and producing 30 yds rushing.
McCoy passed and ran for something like 270 of the Browns (approx) 300 yds of offensive production yesterday.
The basic formula for successful offensive football has not changed...
....if the offensive line cannot protect their QB and open holes for the RBs, chances are great, your team is going to lose the game...AND...
....your skilled offensive players (qb, rb, wr, te) will not play to their potential if the offensive line cannot protect the QB and open holes for their RBs.
The #1 priority for the Browns this coming offseason...FIX THE OFFENSIVE LINE.
I would have no problem if the Browns used one of their first rounders on a RT and came back in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and drafted two more of the best available Olinemen....then the Browns will be done, "building" their Oline, once and for all.
Also, the Brown Oline coaching position needs to be evaluated by Holmgren and Heckert.
Quote: The Browns RBs ran for 36 yds yesterday...the Browns offensive line ...IS NOT FINE !
You could use a lot of arguments ..... but the fact that Hillis was out, Hardesty only had 2 carries before he got hurt, and a guy who wasn't on the team until 2 weeks ago and only had 11 carries probably had as much to do with the fact that we had 44 yards on 12 carries from the RB. Given that we were down to a guy whose name 80%+ of Browns fans probably still can't pronounce, nor spell without looking it up, 3.6 yards/carry against the #1 rush defense in the league isn't too bad.
Quote: McCoy passed and ran for something like 270 of the Browns (approx) 300 yds of offensive production yesterday.
As far as McCoy's "total yardage", he had 117 of those yards on the final 2 drives of the game, when the game was out of reach. That means that he had 153 yards of total offense when the game was still at all in doubt. Throw out the garbage time production, because it is meaningless to any rational debate.
As far as drafting all OL ... that's never going to happen. NFL teams draft playmakers high. We probably have more higher draft picks on our OL than most teams.
Thomas was a 1 Mack was a 1 Lauvoa was a 3 Pinkston was a 5 Pashos (originally) 5 by the Ravens
That's more draft picks than most teams have on their OL.
Look at the Steelers: Scott (originally) 5 by the Lions Kemoeatu 6 Pouncey 1 Legursky 6 Gilbert 2
How about the Ravens? Bryant McKinney (originally) 1 by the Vikings (released because of numerous legal and personal conduct issues) Grubbs 1 Birk (originally) 6 by the Vikings Yanda 3 Oher 1
I would put the Ravens about even with us as far as OL investment. 2 1st rounders, 1 "bought" former 1st rounder, a 3rd and a late rounder free agent.
The Bengals? Whitworth 2 Livings UDFA Cook UDFA Williams (originally) 2 by the Eagles Smith 1
Hardly a collection of high priced talent there.
How about the gold standard?
The Packers: Newhouse 5 Lang 4 Wells 7 Sitton 4 Bulaga 1
Hmm .... mostly a collection of mid to late rounders there too.
NFL teams do not generally invest more than 1 or 2 high picks in the OL ... and many teams actually feature an UDFA or 2. (or maybe even 3) The QB has as big a say in the effectiveness of the OL as the OL does in the effectiveness of the QB. Look back to the Frye years when the OL "sucked" ... until Anderson became the starter. Then, all of a sudden, the OL became one of the best in the league.
We need a QB who can do his job at a high level, and then the OL will miraculously improve. Teams have no fear of McCoy, so they blitz him, overload the line, run a ton of man coverage, and he just looks lost back there.
There will be times when a QB is going to get hit and/or sacked. That's true for every QB. Hell, Sam Bradford has been out for 2 games with an injury and he has still been sacked 5 times more than McCoy. The Browns are middle of the pack when it comes to allowing sacks. They allow pressure, but that's going to happen when teams play overload fronts because they do not fear the downfield passing game at all.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
These last 2 posts exemplify the "chicken or egg" nature of failing football teams:
The OL makes the QB look bad. The QB makes the OL look bad.
Which is it, when blame is to be assigned? As I see it, there is blame enough to spread around. McCoy has a severe case of "happy feet," presumably because he can't trust his protection to hold off defenders for more than 1.5-2.0 seconds. That barely leaves enough time for a 5-step drop, let alone longer passing routes that take time to develop. On the other hand, when protection does hold up, Colt takes 5 seconds to read his progressions into the inevitable checkdown pass 3-5 yards downfield. It's a clusterfudge of ineptitude for both offending parties- and we get the results we have seen.
Early in yesterday's game, the camera crew shot isolation of the right side of our OL. At the snap, Pashos took 1/2 step back, tried to establish his stance, and completely whiffed the block on the DE, who simply speed-rushed right past him on his way toward Colt. By the time Pashos laid a hand on the guy, he was halfway past the point of contact. I'd have happy feet too, if that's all the "protection" I could count on.
As for the QB: it's one thing to throw a bad pass every now and then. It's quite another to consistently throw behind receivers, get the ball out late, and lead then directly into the teeth of the opposition's LB corps. There's nothing quite like having one's head severed from one's body to make a WR gunshy on the next crossing route.
So- here we have it, afaics: QB doesn't trust the line. OL plays well on one play, stinks it up for the next 2. WR's don't trust the QB, leading to short-arming passes that they could catch. 24 dropped passes (!)... and I'm sure that at least 1/3 of those drops are due to "hearing footsteps."
The team looks tentative and skittish for far too much of the game... and much of it is due to not having any rhythm or chemistry. It is constantly playing from behind, due to slow starts, and isn't talented enough to overcome 10+ point deficits AND it's own mistakes.
Interesting that when the O is called upon to play an up-tempo game, execution starts looking a bit crisper. In what Y-Town called "garbage time" the drive that led to the TD was actually the best they've looked in the last 3 games.... so wtf doesn't the coaching staff call up that approach on the team's first 2 or 3 possessions of the game? I'm not talking about a "quick-strike" offense that scores in 4 plays- we all know that's impossible... I'm talking about still using 8-15 plays to score, but at a snappier pace. It would be scary (and unique) to see how this team could play with a lead. Our D is playing solidly enough to really go after the other team and protect a lead, instead of "keeping us in the game."
One more note: with an anemic O like ours, Special Teams becomes HUGE in establishing field position. With Seely gone, our ST has gone from one of the best in the league to anything but special- so they ain't doing Colt any favors, either. Every time I see Cribbs out there trying to find a non-existent seam, I find my heart in my throat... worrying that he'll leave the field on a stretcher. Kid goes balls-to-walls every time, but is getting almost every one of his yards on individual effort alone. [shakes head].
As much as I want to join the finger-pointing gangs on both sides of the "chicken/egg" debate here, I see one common denominator: the coaching staff has done precious little to set these guys up for success.
One squad out of three isn't going to get it done. Not in the NFL.
Clem, as usual, this is a well-thought out, lucid response (My Cousin Vinny quote, for those at home!). I'll go a step further and lay some blame on management for not addressing the shortcomings of the roster. There was some talent available at WR to be had in the off-season, but nothing was done to upgrade. I realize that Holmgren/Heckert have had 2 drafts and 2 FA pds. to bring in players, but it's becoming painfully clear to me that there are more holes on this roster than I thought.
I really put some stock into the notion that Shurmur's offense right now is about all we can expect from the personnel this team has. That being said, as an NFL OC, he's got to come up with better ways to allow his team to succeed. Use more no-huddle. Jim Kelly, Boomer Esiason, Peyton Manning, have all had success using the no-huddle throughout games - not just at the end of halves.
You don't motion Greg Little into the backfield for the first time ever and then give him the ball 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage. The fact that he's there is an obvious alert to the defense. And if he's the primary receiver on that play - which is what it looked like- then the play design is flawed.
Again, I agree with you, that the coaching staff has to be accountable, and that includes the defense. You can't give up 100 + yards to a back in one half. The one time the defense absolutely HAD to come up with a stop, we let them drive down the field.
It's frustrating, but as several have pointed out, this wasn't a 10 win roster at the beginning of the season, and sure doesn't look like it now.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do. -Derek Jeter
There probably is some blame to be had on both sides.
However, when the QB throws so many short, shorter, and shortest passes, the defense tends to cheat up. They flood the short zones. They blitz, because they don't fear the QB beating them deep. This is what I see happening in our case.
If we had a situation where the OL was getting beat by a 3 or 4 man rush, that would be one thing. However, they are facing a lot of blitzes. Every OL will occasionally have a play like the Pashos play that you referred to, but those really aren't the norm. They are the plays that stand out because they are so blatant, and so rare. How many other similar plays where the T was beat that badly can you name this year? There were a few DB blitzes where the QB just missed them entirely ..... but that's really all that stands out to me as horrible misses from the edge. Thomas may have had an issue with Freeney, but that's also to be expected. He didn't get abused, but he also wasn't perfect. A good QB realizes who he is playing and, at the very least, offers more than token attention to the biggest threat on the defense.
We had some issues from the Guard spots, and that's to be expected with a rookie and a 2nd year player at the 2 Guard spots. Pinkston looks like a guy who could become a keeper .... and Lauvoa worries the hell out of me. This is probably the biggest area that anyone could claim that McCoy has a legitimate beef with his blocking.
Regardless, all of this has little to do with the QB when he has a clean pocket.
People complained about receivers not getting open until that was largely debunked by the national media as well as the local media. The receivers have been getting open. Passes have not been accurate though. They have not been on time. Now on time could be a QB problem, a receiver problem, or both ...... but accurate passes to a moving target is a basic QB skill. McCoy seems to struggle in this area. He seems to struggle with the pass over the LB and in front of the S. He actually threw one in the game yesterday. I almost fell over because it literally was the first I could recall all year.
McCoy struggles with his mechanics. His footwork stinks. He loves that back foot throw, and so does the defense. His basics are terrible. He struggles to find throwing lanes. He seems to have problems with pre-snap reads, thus the "3-5 second later" throws to a target 2-5 yards down field. A quality NFL QB can identify single coverage on the outside. Hell, I can see it sitting in my living room. He needs to see those opportunities and attack them. Bernie Kosar loved getting blitzed. He was so smart, and so aware, and he knew that if he was getting blitzed, then someone was single covered. (or maybe free entirely in a zone) McCoy seems to freak when blitzed. He gets nervous, even when he has no need to be. He reacts inappropriately to imagined pressure far too often. He had a play yesterday where he got pressure, rolled right, had no one within 5 yards of him, and threw the ball out of bounds. Even the announcers mentioned it.
The scary part is that I don't remember McCoy's mechanics being so horrible last year. I don't remember such crappy footwork. (well, maybe in the last Steelers game when we were down to our 5th string RT, had Mike Bell at RB, and so on) It appears that McCoy has regressed, and he needed to make strong progress to become an average NFL starter. He was protected somewhat early on last year, then had a little more put on him as the year went along. He never really reached "average" though. He was more of a hopeful project by year's end.
This year we see a QB who seems to have regressed in many ways. His mechanics have gone to hell, along with his footwork. He looks skittish. He does not make NFL throws. These things have nothing at all to do with the OL. If he was getting destroyed by a 3-4 man rush like Bradford was earlier this year, then that could be one thing .... but he isn't. The OL is handling most of those situations. (Note: most, not all) A 5 man OL is not going to have a problem with probably 50% + of 5 man blitz schemes unless there is a back or TE help, and a 6 man rush scheme is putting a lot on the QB to get the ball out immediately. That's a risky scheme, but opposing teams don't see it as a risk when facing McCoy. They don't believe that he can beat them deep, and frankly, I bet that they don't believe that he will even try.
Anyway ... I hope that explains a little of what I see when I look at the games we have played thus far. People are free to agree/disagree with my reasoning, but I would hope that they have put equal thought into why they disagree.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Oh, you'll get no disagreement from me on the Colt observations. None at all. I'd have to be Stevie Wonder pointed away from the TV screen to not get what you're saying about Colt.
On a side note: I earlier asked wtf the coaching staff doesn't place Colt into an up-temp O earlier (and more often) in games. I've always thought that getting the D back on its heels early in a game could help Colt & co. establish some rhythm and chemistry. Now, I see in Marla Ridenour's most recent joint that the staff is considering it. Thank you(!)
Now for the inevitable follow-up question: wtf did it take these guys so long to figure this out, when I was asking about it 3 weeks ago?
The mark of any responsible coaching staff is to put players in the best possible situation to maximize their abilities, or in our case, to minimize their liabilities. IMHO, this should have been implemented weeks ago, when it became obvious that up-tempo was the ONLY way this O could move the ball. I mean, damn- the first 15-25 plays are scripted anyway.... why not shave off the huddle time, and get something going early?
Slow starts and playing from early point deficits have been hamstringing an already less-than potent O. Shurmer and crew should have lit a fire up under these guys LAST MONTH, instead of treating Browns fans to one lurching, stumbling start after another.
Something tells me that we'll see a slightly improved Colt McCoy if "the headset bunch" quit putting him behind the 8-ball with a lackluster game plan. It won't turn him into Drew Brees, but it couldn't hurt.
YTown, i do have a number of disagreements...first ill start with what i agree on. His footwork stinks to high heavan on most throws. Also...when he tries to step up into the pocket and has a ton of time...his decisions seems to be bad...but those are decisions made 5ish seconds into the play when our routes are long over and it doesnt seem like our WRs adjust...hes seemed to try to make the only play left in his reads.
But...
I thought that SF rushed 4 alot and 5 alot...the rest of the guys flooded the short zones as you stated and i agree there...but when theres more defenders in an area than WRs, its hard to make passes to open guys...NFL defenders close up windows REAL fast, and you may see open, and then suddenly a guy is there in a half step, or a well timed jump or something...The last 2 games...teams have rushed 4 or 5 and left the rest of the guys within 5-10 yards of the LOS and thats where almost all of our pass catchers are. thats disconcerting. They'll man up on our outside WRs and zone the rest, and theres just very few spots to pick and choose and hit open guys...
i havent seen the open guys youre seeing. I see guys in space, but i just dont see the passing lanes. I just dont see our guys open where they can get the ball...I see guys in space but theyre either not looking at the ball, not making any break to see the ball later in routes, or theres defenders in the way of the pass, and the only pass that can get there is softer and over the top and then theres too much time to close in on the play and its wiser to not throw it.
I dont think he cowers to "imagined" pressure...He gets hit ALOT, and i dont often see him ducking away on throws with no one around...I do see him back foot throws with no one in his face...but at the same time...he doesnt have room to "step up" and fire...he should be planting and firing though. again, thats a footwork issue.
He's been put on the ground more often than most QBs but he still makes every effort to make a throw. And the roll out where he threw it away yesterday...if its the play i remember...he escaped two defenders that had a hand on him and got away and then threw it away...which is a step up from previous games where he tried to make a play, and usually did...for those in the dark jerseys...
While it isnt there yet...I agree he isnt playing well...I dont see the trending downward that everyone else is. I see steps that show he is improving, and with every game i see a QB who is closer to putting it all together...Lots of people say the light.
I see it coming on...the dimmer switch is on low right now...but theres electricity going through the bulb. He's been decisive lately, and hes making good throws when he steps up, and he is throwing outside the numbers something i know youve been on him for (or was it Toad only?). He works hard, and will continue to improve. It wont look amazing all the time.
But I see a QB that when he throws to Watson, Moore, Smith, and 2/3 of the time to Little...thats a good sign...its players making plays. He's also done a decent job throwing to Cribbs, and i think Norwood has caught every pass thrown his way...now that i think he may not not hauled one in yesterday.
You see good players trust guys that make plays for them, and dont give chance to guys that cant or dont...Thats what Colt is doing now...Hillis (when healthy), Cribbs, Little, Moore, Smith, and Watson are making plays and theyre getting the ball...Hopefully Norwood steps up and fills in the cracks...That'd be 5 guys that could make things happen and Colt could use those guys to help him succeed.
"It has to start somewhere It has to start somehow What better place than here? What better time than now?"
The play I am talking about is one where Fouts (I think) was just beside himself because McCoy rolled out away from the pressure, had an open area to work from, then promptly threw the ball away. He literally had no one within 5 yards of him anywhere. He did not have to junk the play that quickly. He just got antsy, and gave up on the play.
As much as I hate Roethlisberger, he never ever gives up on a play, You may have to put him in a body cast afterwards, but he hangs in till the very last second ... often at legitimate risk of life and limb ... to make a play. Then again, he's a big, strong QB with a strong arm, who can make every throw there is. We seem to have an aversion to that kind of QB. We seem to want to try and be "smarter" than everyone else. Look at how the front office at the time crowed over getting Brady Quinn. He had the size, but his arm was iffy at best. We just hate going after the guy who could be a legitimate franchise QB, who can load the team on his back and drive them down the field, seemingly by force of will and his own strength alone.
Instead we draft guys we can "build a team around so they can be successful". It's just not working. We tried that route. It's time to go get a legitimate franchise guy and do what the rest of the league does, instead of trying to outsmart the rest of the league ........ beguiling them with out brilliance while we go 5-11 year after year.
I want the kind of QB who is smart enough to win games, but also has the physical tools to do so in today's NFL. This league today is set up for passing, and for passing down the field. We're not doing that. It's not working. It's time to accept that, if McCoy doesn't have a miraculous change in the next 9 games, then we will grab the highest rated QB we can in the first round of next year's draft, no matter what the cost. It's that important.
Carolina was a joke last year offensively. They had Matt Moore ... and they had Jimmy Claussen at QB. In reality, they had nothing at QB.
Look at how they tore up the league running the ball in 2008. (Delhomme's last year there) They had Stewart and Williams, and the 2 of them ran for over 2200 yards. They were both over 5 yards/carry.
Last year Williams did get hurt, but they had Stewart for most of the year. Their running production fell off the face of the earth. Their 2 starting RBs dropped almost a full yard/carry over the previous year.
This year, Williams is back up to 4.8 yards/carry. Cam Newton forces defenses to pay attention to him. Defenses can't crowd him, because he won't only hurt them with his feet, he will tear them up through the air.
Steve Smith went from 15 yards/catch in 2008 to 11 yards/catch last year. This year he is at 20, and is already almost to 1000 yards. He only had 500 yards all of last year. QBs affect WRs more than WRs affect QBs.
We need that difference maker at the most important position on the football field. I am tired of trying to get by with the "cheap" solution. I don't want a Yugo anymore, I want a Lamborghini so we stand a chance of winning the whole damn thing at least once before I keel over. (Not that I am planning on that happening any time soon) I don't want to take a Prius and try to turn it into a Lamborghini .... I want the real damn thing.
JMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: These last 2 posts exemplify the "chicken or egg" nature of failing football teams:
The OL makes the QB look bad. The QB makes the OL look bad.
Which is it, when blame is to be assigned? As I see it, there is blame enough to spread around.
clem...it is not about assigning blame !
It is about understanding the basics of football.
I do agree we are having somewhat of a chicken and egg debate, but anyone who has studied the history of football knows the offensive line's performance is paramount to the success of a team's running game as well as a team's passing game.
Both the RBs and QBs (wrs/te) rely on the offensive line "to first" perform their assignment on a given play, in order for the RB or QB (wrs/te) to successfully perform their assignment.
I subscribe to and believe in the basic offensive football philosophy that "first", the offensive line must be capable of completing their assignments before a RB or QB (wr/te) can successfully complete assignments.
I'm not about to claim McCoy is "the man" to lead the Browns to the playoffs, but I also know that I can't honestly judge McCoy's performance if the offensive line is not giving him the time and space needed to complete his assignment, on a pass play.
The Browns definitely need to upgrade the offensive line at RT and IMO, the jury is still out on our two OGs. It would be great if Steinbach came back at 100% but the Browns also must be realistic about Steinie's future as he will be starting his 10 NFL season next year.
Also, as I said earlier, the Browns need to take a look at their Oline coaches and decide if they are capable of developing a playoff caliber Offensive line. If there are any doubts, Holmgren and Heckert need to be exploring all options to make sure we have the best available coaching talent on the staff.
Let us not forget the ultimate goal of this franchise...to win a Super Bowl. Building a "dominate" offensive line will go a long way toward achieving the ultimate goal.
For the year, 1 guy attempted 10 passes and was sacked 5 times ... the other attempted 527 passes and was sacked 14 times.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I agree with you philosophically. The problem is we're dealing with a limited amount of time and resources. We don't have 15 picks for each of the next 4 years, so every time you take an OLine guy in the top 3 rounds that means you AREN'T addressing other needs. Do we need an upgrade at RT? Yes. Are both our guards playing sub-par at this point in time? Yes. But even acknowledging that, you can't spend a 1st rounder on a RT and 2nd rounder on a G because now we STILL don't have a #1 WR...we STILL don't have a pass rushing RDE...we STILL (IMO) don't have a franchise QB....and you aren't going to find any of these guys in rounds 4+.
So we go ANOTHER year where sure, maybe our OLine play improves...which I agree will automatically make everyone else look incrementally better...but we still won't be competitive, because we don't have the tools. So, then we're stuck waiting for the 2013 draft to "hope" to get "the guy" in here...but of course nobody will want to start a rookie on day 1 because that isn't fair. Oh and then they won't expect results until AT LEAST year 2 or 3...because judging him any time before that just isn't long enough. Heaven forbid we ever change any coaches or schemes in this whole time frame.
With this time line, by the time we have our "man" and he's been in the league long enough to reasonably expect him to perform....Joe Thomas and Alex Mack will be out of the league...and guess what? We'll hear about how we need to draft more high OLinemen again otherwise we can't properly evaluate whether the NEXT guy is really "the man" or not.
At some point, it has to stop. We've already spent some high picks addressing the line. Now we have to spend what it takes, suck it up and just go get THE GUY at QB who can win not just BECAUSE of the team around him, but IN SPITE OF the team around him.
Once you get that guy, then you can worry about finding pieces to put around him.
Sure I think our OLine still needs some pieces and I'd love to see us go get a mid to late round RT and another G again the next couple drafts, but until we go get that franchise QB it makes no difference and we'll continue spinning the franchises wheels in the mud for ANOTHER 12 years.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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On that scale, I'm about one more idiotic throw from joining Django on the "my mind is made up and ain't a damned thing you can do to change it" train. 
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He only had 500 yards all of last year. QBs affect WRs more than WRs affect QBs.
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