|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044 |
This team is bad for one reason....DEPTH.....we lack talent across the board....and to be honest with you, Heckert has only added 3 players to this team with starting talent:
Haden, Ward(this one is debateable), and Taylor....thats all he has added in 2 years....how can you possibly expect to compete with that? you can't....
Our Best OL (Thomas) was here before Heckert got here...Alex Mack the same....rubin was not a part of Heckerts doing, our 3 best players on D 2 of them (Rubin, and Jackson) were not picked by Heckert.
Also Heckert has done next to nothing in FA....Hillis as of right now is an unknown because he has hardly got any carries....
The bottom line is this:
This team needs a total teardown.....there only players on this team I would keep would be:
Thomas, Haden, Cribbs, Mack, Jackson, Rubin, Taylor, Watson, and Moore(make a Moore a slot receiver)
Everyone else I would can, i would fire every single other player in that lockeroom outright.
In the draft I would take BPA at my pics.
The day after i canned most of the roster, I would have a 2-3 month ongoing "open tryout" for the Browns I can gurantee you I could find 30-35 guys off the street that could play competitive football....im looking for guys that have the following characteristics:
1. hardworking
2. are mean
3. want to go all out and smear someone.
in this economy...i could pick up 40 guys for anywhere between 45-and 60 k a year plus a medical package, if they perform well...we will talk about a raise...i will motivate these guys to do well not only by winning, but by the better they perform the more money they get paid.
This entire franchise needs a complete stinking reset.
i will not for one second, you hear me ONE SECOND believe that you can't find good players just because they were never drafted out of college....there are literally "thousands" of undiscovered good football players out there that never got a chance to go to college...due to the families they grew up in, circumstances, etc that have the tools to make it in the NFL they just need the opportunity to do....
There is tons of undiscovered talent out there where the scouts don't look that has yet to be tapped. and at worst case scenario...atleast im not paying a bunch of bums millions of dollars to flat out suck....
Paul Brown said it best...Football is all about hitting and tackling, and im telling you...myself, you, we in general could find guys on the street that could do it better then the guys we have.
We don't need no stinking complicated playbook, all this other nonsense...what we need is hard nosed smack people around football...run the darn ball down their throats and play nasty hardcore D and beat people around on the field....
This current roster though...its just not going to happen....
Even Phil Taylor looks soft to me...the only 2 guys we have on D that actually play hard as in football hard is Haden and Jackson...they are the only two who fly to the football and punish guys....and Rubin when he don't have 3 guys on him....the rest of these guys are soft and slow.....
it is what it is...i see what it is....a total reset would not be a bad thing for this franchise...in fact things couldn't be worse....they would probably get better much sooner.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Man, am I grateful you aren't running this team.
Quote:
This team is bad for one reason....DEPTH.....
If by "DEPTH" you mean "TALENTED STARTERS" then you're absolutely right.
But that isn't what you meant, is it. 
From 3/5th of our offensive line to Cribbs and Little at WR to McCoy at QB.....a highly unfortunate amount of our starters don't belong as such.
Here's a damning question: Name me three teams which would rather have McCoy than the guy they chose to start the season. I can think of one in Grossman, and even that's debatable.
So same thing with right tackles and guards?
Any teams out there gonna jump at the idea of starting a guy like Cribbs at WR?
It's about our starters on offense right now. We aren't losing because of lack of defense. If a team scores 16 against us, we lose.
That's pathetic.
Quote:
This team needs a total teardown.....
We just STARTED a teardown.  That rock you've been sleepin' under comfy man? 
I can't think of a team in modern NFL history that began a complete teardown after 7 games into the last teardown.
Give me some examples of teams that have so I can try to see your version of the grand plan....
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,144
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,144 |
What about Sheard and Hillis? They came on Heckert's watch.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Rebuild. It's really gotten old to many fans, but all we need to do is look at the history of this team since 99 to see why the phrase is so overused in Brownstown. Already, I'm seeing posts that want Holmboy gone (Shurmer, too) and most recently, slams on Heckert as well. Teardown, indeed. I guess the good news is that there really wasn't much to tear down, given the existing talent pool that was waiting for H3 when they got here. That's perhaps the saddest legacy of 12 years of draft history: a handful of good players, a dozen or so average guys, and a remaining roster of players who might play well enough to be on some other team's practice squad. There are posters on this board who rant that "it shouldn't take 4 years to revamp a team and field a winner"... but I think that sometimes those guys don't really see what's really been here. FIVE regime changes in 13 years... that's an average life expectancy of.... wait for it.... 2.6 years. (Read that stat twice for added impact) Knight: I get your frustration. Hell, I'd have to have the emotional makeup of a lump of anthracite to NOT get it.... but dude- I gotta ask: overreact much? As I see it, this is basically Year Two of a total scrap/rebuild project. A project that is being built on a scaffold of about 8 really decent players scattered across the entire team. If that isn't a huge job, I don't know how others define "huge." I'd go down you post and categorically jump on various talking points, but it's late, and I've read way too much doom & gloom here the past 2 days. Instead, I'll cherry-pick a few of the points that stand out to me. Quote:
Heckert has only added 3 players to this team with starting talent
True, at present.... but not necessarily etched in stone for the future. Jabaal Sheard is making strides, Skrine is working his way into the lineup, Norwood is getting calls, and could produce in the future. Little is on the field constantly now, and has upside to exploit. Expecting rookies and 2nd year men to become all-pro is a fool's request. Some guys sre projects... and just because they haven't been seen yet doesn't mean that they won't.
Quote:
Also Heckert has done next to nothing in FA....
Possibly, because he told us all, up-front that this team will be built through the draft. This time, we got a GM who actually meant it when he said it. Perhaps another reason is because he's managed to lock up home-grown players to contract extensions instead of hiring in high-priced FA's from elsewhere. I don't know about you, but seeing him commit to guys like Joe Thomas and Josh Cribbs instill a helluvalot more confidence than seeing him make a Savage-esque "overpay splash" in FA for someone like Houshmendadeh or a used-up TO... guys who will only be singed for one year, and break the bank in doing so. It's plain to me that he'll use FA the way it should be used: AFTER MOST OF THE TEAM HAS ALREADY BEEN BUILT, and we only need one or two parts to complete the package. We've done it the other way 2, maybe 3 times before- and have one Wild Card appearance to show for our efforts. So much for hinging our fortunes on mercenaries.
And your "open tryout" will land you exactly what anyone might expect: guys who would already be on an NFL practice squad if they had any talent at all. There's a reason Your Guys are washing cars, laying brick and sitting in office cubicles right now. So- good luck with that "cattle call" approach.
I can hear your frustration in almost every line you just wrote, Dawg.... but things really aren't as dire as you paint them. In late August, the most optomistic Dawgs were predicting a 9-7 season before even seeing a single snap in regulation football. The rest pegged the Browns to be anywhere between 3-13 to .500. Now, we're getting what most folks (realistically) predicted.... and the sky is falling!
There's only so much that can be accomplished with 7-10 draft picks and a handful of UFA's... especially with the barren cupboards H3 had to work with. What keeps me from despair is seeing an actual FO philosophy being employed and executed:
Build through the draft
Reward True Players with contract extensions
Address the most glaring needs first (D was putrid, now they're at least respectable. O will be next)
Plan the work/work the plan.
It ain't rocket science, but it does take at least 3 drafts and a lot more hits than misses to turn around a franchise that was as dismal and directionless as ours has been- for over a decade.
The only thing this team has never done since Art Modell took over in the 60's is get a FO and let them work for 4+ years. One only needs to look 1.5 hours to the east to see how a team should be run. It sounds like blasphemy, but look at the respective histories of the Browns and Steelers. The 180-degree flip-flop in philosophy is directly related to their respective success/failure rates. I rest my case.
...and you want to blow us up after 23 games?
Twenty-three games?
Dude- listen to yourself! That's crazytalk!!!
I propose that we fans take a breather, get off the "microwave clock," and let this thing play out. It will save a lot of trips to the cardiologist, save us hundreds of dollars in Prilosec purchases.... and allow us to watch a team get built from less than nothing.
But that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Carolina was a joke last year offensively. They had Matt Moore ... and they had Jimmy Claussen at QB. In reality, they had nothing at QB.
Look at how they tore up the league running the ball in 2008. (Delhomme's last year there) They had Stewart and Williams, and the 2 of them ran for over 2200 yards. They were both over 5 yards/carry.
Last year Williams did get hurt, but they had Stewart for most of the year. Their running production fell off the face of the earth. Their 2 starting RBs dropped almost a full yard/carry over the previous year.
This year, Williams is back up to 4.8 yards/carry. Cam Newton forces defenses to pay attention to him. Defenses can't crowd him, because he won't only hurt them with his feet, he will tear them up through the air.
Steve Smith went from 15 yards/catch in 2008 to 11 yards/catch last year. This year he is at 20, and is already almost to 1000 yards. He only had 500 yards all of last year. QBs affect WRs more than WRs affect QBs.
But they have Rob Chudzinski at OC... hey, wait a minute... 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Man, I loved Chud. It seemed like he was a ghost after DA's curtain call. If I recall correctly, I think he went back to SD as TE coach or something. I remember thinking how can some team not snatch him up to be OC. It was almost as if 2007 never happened. I'm glad to see he got another shot and that someone was paying attention. And he got what he needs in his offense ... a strong armed QB. Man, that was a fun year. There are good times ahead for Carolina. And why shouldn't there be? They've been struggling for several years and only have one Super Bowl appearance in their short existence. They are a tortured fan base who deserve the next great thing at QB (a QB that will be better than Luck btw) and who were lucky enough to be drafting #1 when that QB was coming out. I can't think of a fanbase or team that has suffered as long as they have and deserved it more. 
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,842 |
jc...
The Browns "do not need" a complete tear down!
The rebuilding process started two years ago, when Heckert and Holmgren arrived and to date, about 2/3 of the roster has turned over since that point.
That does not mean the process is nearly complete though because not every player Heckert and Holmgren bring in are going to play up to expectations. Therefore, the process of rebuilding the team is far from over.
For example...Pinkston and Lauvao are in their first year of starting in the NFL. These two may or may not be the quality of Olinemen they are expected to be. Ultimately, they may be quality backup material at best rather than starters. We just don't know yet.
I believe everyone can agree that Pashos at RT, is on the down side of his career and the Browns need to address this position in the offseason, hopefully in the draft (imo).
The Browns might feel that Pinkston is better suited to play OT and that he will be our future RT.
I have been doing some research to backup my position that the offensive line unit and the quality of their play is directly linked to the quality of the play of a teams skilled position players.
How many of QB gurus had already flushed the toilet on the SF 49er QB, Alex Smith?
I believe most around the NFL believed Alex Smith was a goner when Harbaugh took over and some projected Harbaugh would use the 2011 first round pick on a QB to replace Alex Smith.
But after 7 games, Alex Smith is ranked 8th in the NFL in QB rating (95.7) and 8th in completion percentage (63.2). So who is responsible for Alex Smith's turn around?
Some say a QBs best friend is a running attack, and Alex Smith has the #6 ranked running game in the NFL. But if you watch the game against the Browns, you will notice Smith's offensive line not only ripped the Browns on the ground for 170+ yds, they gave Smith the protection he needed to have an effective day passing the ball.
A closer look at what may be the reason for Alex Smith's turn around and the early success of the 49ers might be because of something the franchise did over the last few years and completed in 2010. The 49er franchise made a commitment to build their Oline via the draft.
Here is a look at the 49ers starting Oline...
LT- Joe Staley #74 Tackle
Draft: 2007 - 1st round (28th pick) by the San Francisco 49ers
LG- Mike Iupati #77 Guard
Draft: 2010 - 1st round (17th pick) by the San Francisco 49ers
C- Jonathan Goodwin #59 Center
Draft: 2002 - 5th round (19th pick) by the New York Jets
RG- Adam Snyder #68 Center
Draft: 2005 - 3rd round (30th pick) by the San Francisco 49ers
RT- Anthony Davis #76 Tackle
Draft: 2010 - 1st round (11th pick) by the San Francisco 49ers
In 2010, the 49er franchise made a bold statement when they used their two 1st round picks (#11 & #17) to complete the building of their offensive line. The 49ers drafted two of the best offensive linemen in the 2010 draft, Anthony Davis and Mike Iupati...now, after a year of gaining experience, their two #1 picks from the 2010 draft along with the rest of their offensive linemen, are paying dividends.
Suddenly the 49er QB who many considered a bust, is having a good year, looking like he might be the answer to the 49 QB needs. Suddenly, all the talk about the 49ers needing to use their first round pick on a QB has been silenced.
I'm not saying Colt McCoy will suddenly look like the answer to the Browns needs at QB if the Browns front office drafts Oline in the top rounds of the 2012 draft....
...BUT, before the Browns front office does what some suggest, draft a QB to replace Colt McCoy, they need to finish building the offensive line via the 2012 draft.
With the way the Browns offensive line is presently playing, we can't even tell if McCoy is the answer...if he does not have the time to throw the ball or if McCoy does not have the benefit of the running game to help his passing game.
IMO, Colt McCoy looked better throwing the ball last season, than this season. I realize their have been coaching changes and a new playbook, but all of that was new to McCoy in his rookie year, too.
So what has changed that might affect McCoy's passing performance in 2011 vs 2010?....the Browns offensive line is not performing as they did in 2010. A poor running game and a QB who has very little time to throw the ball can be attributed to the play of the Browns offensive line, IMO.
The Browns must first complete their building of the offensive line...then they can see if McCoy's performance is capable of leading the Browns to the playoffs.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
What's your point? We spent exactly the same as the 49ers did on OL: 3 top picks, a 3rd and a 5th
also...I can't believe how quick guys are trashing Pinkston...let me say you one thing, Pinky through his 1st 7 games has played better than Mack through his 1st 7 in 2009 as a rook...now, C is a more responsible position than G but do you remember how much better our OL looked with Fraley in there making calls? and Fraley was a below AVG guy, esp. at G where he spot started
We will most probably draft a RT and another late round G or C to compete with Pinky and Lauvao...that's plenty enough "investment" in "building" the OL....we need a QB and playmaking WR more than any OL right now
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I'd be curious to know if folks around here think the combination of Pashos and Lauvao is better or worse than Floyd Womack and John St. Clair.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
What's your point? We spent exactly the same as the 49ers did on OL: 3 top picks, a 3rd and a 5th
I don't know what his point is, but like most other teams that are having decent offensive success, they don't have 2 or 3 brand new guys in the system, the center is new but the others have at least one full season together and a couple have more than that.
We just give up on things way too easy, coaches, coordinators, players, it doesn't matter, we look at a team like the 9ers and think they are having some extraordinary instant success but they aren't, they have been putting pieces in place over time and maybe the coach WAS the last piece for this group, but we seem to prefer this total change over every few years process in hopes that we will strike it rich and it ain't going to happen.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Pashos is slightly better than StClair but played even worse last game, overall I think he's better though...we have another Womack in Hicks on our bench...similar player and career....I liked Lauvao as a prospect, although he was slightly overdrafted and am pretty disappointed by his play, Womack was more consistent for sure but he was a multi year vet...on film I see effort though from Shawn, so he might still play too nervous right now....playing between Mack and Pashos doesn't help him, as both are overwhelmed on their own...Pinky at least has Thomas next to him....pretty telling though that Pinky got the LG job over Lauvao...and he IS playing better so far
Pinky is a keeper at G...at worst he becomes another Womack/Hicks as often utilized 6th G/RT...Lauvao otoh, not so sure...Hicks or Greco would be short term upgrades but we're not contenders, so I still would give him this entire season to settle down...only if he repeatedly has 2-3 brainfarts like last game I would replace him as that can kill your QB...
Lauvao for me is in the same boat/category as Colt: not liking what I see, not expecting much progress but still give them those 9 games to make sure....using Toad's Trust-O-Meter on some of the younger guys it would look like this:
McCoy: 0
Lauvao: 1
Pinky: 5
Sheard: 7
Taylor: 7
Ward: 7
Haden: 10
Marecic: 5
Little: 6
Hardesty: 3 due to injury, would get a 5 if he was healthy
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289 |
DJ, Our OL has been inconsistent at best and often times just awful in pass pro. Mack has a 5th round rookie to his left and an awful-playing Lauvao on his right. Pashos is Pashos...but has an awful-playing Lauvao to his left. mac has already clarified his point about the OL and the need to "fix" it...he suggests that we "fix" it through the draft. He makes a complete and sold point. (insert vomit icon) I agree with that "fix". Quote:
What's your point? We spent exactly the same as the 49ers did on OL: 3 top picks, a 3rd and a 5th
When you respond that we "have invested" in the line by telling me where Pinkston/Lauvao/Pashos were drafted, I think you need to get a job as Obama's press secretary.
You say Lauvao is a 3rd rounder...see...we invested in the line. Then you tell us how awful he is playing. You say Pashos is a 1st rounder...see...we invested in the line. Then you tell us how awful he is playing.
We "spent" what the 49ers spent but it did not work for us. One of the "top 3 picks" was Pashos who is nowhere near what he was as a younger man...our 3rd round investment does not appear to be playing anywhere near the 49ers 3rd round pick.
Lauvao was a pick that did not appear to garner a starter. He will likely be a backup for a long time. Not bad...but not a successful investment for a 3rd rounder.
Pashos needs replaced...but seems to look better when Greco is next to him. I'd keep him on the team provided that I draft/pick-up his immediate replacement.
mac is NOT stating that the end-all-be-all answer will come from the draft...but that such is our best bet for long-term success on the OL...and you two are actually in agreement as to where we need to upgrade the OL
Quote:
We will most probably draft a RT and another late round G or C to compete with Pinky and Lauvao...that's plenty enough "investment" in "building" the OL....we need a QB and playmaking WR more than any OL right now
So you are saying we need to upgrade 2/5ths - or 40% - of the OL...and we need a playmaking WR...and a QB.
mac - and others - are saying that when you admit that we need (2) new OL and a play-making WR that it becomes almost impossible to evaluate the QB.
THAT's the point.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289 |
I will also say this:
If Steinbach returns next year, I could see Pinkson going to RG if he does not go to RT.
THAT possibility, coupled with a well-drafted G and or T could make this line better in a hurry.
Please note that I said "well-drafted". If Heckert can find Pinkston in the 5th, I feel pretty good about "investing like the 49ers" on the OL.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
mac's point is to draft OL, give McCoy another year and then decide on his fate...and I consider that to be wrong as Colt isn't helping the OL AT ALL...Vick has a worse OL, Fitzpatrick and Newton don't have better OLs...they still make plays though....OLs just can block, they can't throw TDs...and they won't be 100% every game---when they give you 4+secs you better make a play and that's what the aforementioned QBs do and Colt doesn't...after 4secs he STILL dumps the ball off and gets his TE/RB/WR killed left and right from LBs and S
So why do people want to give Colt a 3rd season but want to "upgrade" half the OL, who have even less starts then Colt? The argument is inconsistent and arbitrarily....if you want Colt to get another year, you also have to give Pinky, Lauvao and Marecic another year
Otoh, I rate every player on their own and it is possible if you look for position specific things...I already said which starters on Offense I would yank, kee or "give more time"
Yank: McCoy, Lauvao, Pashos, Massa
Keep/more time: Marecic, Pinky, Little
Established/fine: Thomas, Mack, TEs
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289 |
Quote:
mac's point is to draft OL, give McCoy another year and then decide on his fate...
That is not his point. His point is that due to the awful talent around McCoy and the newness of the HC, we have no idea - right now - as to whether Colt can be the guy or not.
He has now chosen to focus his commentary on the awful OL play. He has said we need to improve the OL - draft, trade, FA, coach-'em-up, get 'em healthy.
He has commented that we need playmakers.
His point is that we cannot know what we have in McCoy with terrible line play and no playmakers with wierd play-calling.
Quote:
and I consider that to be wrong as Colt isn't helping the OL AT ALL...Vick has a worse OL, Fitzpatrick and Newton don't have better OLs...they still make plays though....OLs just can block, they can't throw TDs...and they won't be 100% every game
And the QB cannot block for himself. You keep telling us how bad Mack/Lauvao/Pashos are playing. Now McCoy should make the WRs AND the OL better. 
Vick and Fitzpatrick have been in the league a little longer than MCoy and with the same team. Vick signed a $100 million contract and Fitz a $63 million contract.
Vick fizzled-out in ATL and Fitz was a backup with the Bengals. STOP comparing established vets on established teams with McCoy and these Browns. Newton has playmakers around him that McCoy would sell his sister to have on the Browns...wait until the league game-plans for Newton.
Quote:
---when they give you 4+secs you better make a play and that's what the aforementioned QBs do and Colt doesn't...after 4secs he STILL dumps the ball off and gets his TE/RB/WR killed left and right from LBs and S
4+ seconds? I rarely see that for McCoy. The Browns lead the league in dropped passes...I think the problem is bigger than the QB. McCoy needs to play better.
Quote:
So why do people want to give Colt a 3rd season but want to "upgrade" half the OL, who have even less starts then Colt? The argument is inconsistent and arbitrarily....if you want Colt to get another year, you also have to give Pinky, Lauvao and Marecic another year
That might just happen.
Quote:
Otoh, I rate every player on their own and it is possible if you look for position specific things...I already said which starters on Offense I would yank, kee or "give more time"
Yank: McCoy, Lauvao, Pashos, Massa
Keep/more time: Marecic, Pinky, Little
Established/fine: Thomas, Mack, TEs
So you have a total of 3 offensive positions - out of 11 - that are established/fine....you want to yank 40% of the OL...and acknowledge that our #1 WR needs to go...and acknowledge that our new #1 WR needs more time.
Got it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Quote:
So why do people want to give Colt a 3rd season but want to "upgrade" half the OL, who have even less starts then Colt?
Because we have Guards that can't even run block...(Both Pinky and Lava are getting manhandled) and neither can PULL...(that isn't going to just change suddenly) And Pashos is getting killed in pass protection. And their performance (or lack of) has a great effect upon ANY QB's performance.
And then they are BOTH allowing a ton of pressure right up the gut in pass protection...Pinky needs more time to develop he was rushed into duty....but it shouldn't be in a Starting Role...Steiny needs to be re-signed......Mack....well are we stuck with him in a style he isn't suited for???? for now probably....But Steiny returning is a big help to him...the Right side needs vast improvement and a draft pick for one of those 2 spots would definitely help there.
So that is technically replacing 2 parts of an OLine (I don't believe you should ever replace more than that in one year)....However The Steiny return is not so much a replacement but a return to continuity....so really we would be replacing only 1 spot and STILL make a major upgrade along the line
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
If a QB needs everything else in place, he's a game manager....not "the guy"
and you guys need to re-watch games...Colt has 4+ secs often enough but he either does the same thing he does when pressured (dump off ot take off) or he gets rid of it anyway because he feels phantom pressure or he holds it so long that he gets pressured (or runs into it)...all of that indicates taht he has absolutely ZERO pocket awareness...he simply guesses
I mean, he's simply not the guy...it' so evident I'm astonished that whoever watches him play even thinks he can be a franchise QB...he's likeable, I get it and I like to root for players like him too but he's simply doesn't have enough talent
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289 |
Name one poster on this topic who has said they think Colt is a franchise guy....name ONE.
4+ seconds? Ok...I am not seeing that...guess we will agree to disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Vick has a worse OL, Fitzpatrick and Newton don't have better OLs...they still make plays though....
By using Fitzpatrick you are proving his point. Fitzpatrick spent 5 years with 3 bad teams, his completion percentage was never over 60%, his YPA was never over 6.3 and his TD to INT ratio was never over 1... then in the last 2 years, when put in a better situation, maybe it's the scheme fits him, maybe it's the personnel around him, maybe a light just came on, who knows... but last year he started and this year he continued, to actually look like a decent NFL QB, after 5 years... so now you want to hold him up as what Colt can't become even though Colt has had 10 starts... That is what people are objecting too...
Then you use Vick, in his 10th year, and Newton, the #1 overall pick in the draft that a lot of people thought would never make it, who is 2-6 in large part because he has as many INTs and TDs... and he's the teams #2 rusher.
You are cherry picking your comparisons just like you accuse other people of doing.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
For every Fitzpatrick there are 10 DA's....so you want to give McCoy 5 years and pray? It's no coincidence Fitzy broke through in his 5th season on his 3rd team...he was a LONGSHOT PROJECT...and you won't win crap with him in POs anyway as his windup is still horrible and decision making is still rather stupid and inconsistent...still, he makes some plays...enough to win games when his OL gives him some time, which isn't on every snap
and Newton actually proves MY point...many considered him a bust before he even played a game but everyone knew he had the talent...boom, CAR out of nowhere went from bottom 3rd to top 3rd Offense...with the same OL, RB and still with Steve Smith who already has better stats than his last 2 season combined....also, if Newton had our D, schedule and Dawson at kicker he'd be sitting at 6-2
am I supposed to cut McCoy some slack because he was drafted 80 picks later? Why should I? Why should ANY fan? He is to the Browns what Newton is to Carolina...the starting QB...and the aim of the game is to beat the others..so if we trot out Colt and all those other teams go with Vick, Newton, Roeth, Brees, Stafford, Ryan etc...we will lose more than win...what do we win by coddling Colt for being "just a 3rd rounder"? What good does it to us? It's pointless, it's a stupid excuse for below AVG play and I'm not going to lower my long term expectations for this team at the most important and critical position....nobody should
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
I like how people will pull the "He's just a 3rd rounder" argument, and have no interest in drafting a QB in the first... 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Name one poster on this topic who has said they think Colt is a franchise guy....name ONE.
4+ seconds? Ok...I am not seeing that...guess we will agree to disagree.
If you don't see any signs of it after almost a season worth of starts, after being "the winningest College QB" and being labled "advanced" then your chances of it are pretty low....also, it's actually a pretty clear sign if you can't find ANY homer on a team message board THINKING he IS "the guy"....if even homers aren't sure then there's NOTHING....only hope and hot air....
we're at the last straw "argument" courtesy introduced by Mangini when he was on the hot seat "have faith in the process", lol...that's when no rational argument is left to support your position
So, the homer's say: "giveth more time"...and still nobody can tell me what he does good to warrant more time.....week after week we see the same mistakes, the same ineptitude to move the ball, HORRBLE 1st Quarters to start games...what's he good or even league AVG at? There's simply nothing to warrant "more time"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
what's he good or even league AVG at?
[Insert Low Turnover Rate Here]
#waitforit
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,509
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,509 |
Another scary thing is that McCoy has fumbled 8 times in 7 games so far this season.
That's a huge concern, because even if we recover those fumbles, they are generally lost plays at best, and negative plays at worst.
The weird thing is that he only fumbled once last year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Another scary thing is that McCoy has fumbled 8 times in 7 games so far this season.
That's a huge concern, because even if we recover those fumbles, they are generally lost plays at best, and negative plays at worst.
The weird thing is that he only fumbled once last year.
So what does that tell you?
Perhaps he's getting hit more? I don't remember any of his fumbles being an "oops, forgot to hold on to the ball" type.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
it's pretty simple. and we can use the oft-used Drew Brees example too, which is always a favorite.
Colt McCoy gets more time unless he is injured. He still has 9 more games this season (Seneca Wallace isn't taking over). At that point, he will have started 24 games. The FO and coaching staff should have a good handle on if he is picking up the blitz reads correct, how his footwork is advancing, and if he is making the proper reads (let alone throwing accurately, etc).
Now, the question will then shift as to whether or not he gets another season. That is obviously a trickier question. If he displays only what he has displayed so far, the answer is likely no. I say likely because I do not think that Heckert will 'reach' for a QB in the draft, so if it plays out that the QBs we like are gone, then we may default to one more year of McCoy (or take another mid-round developmental guy).
But, much like SD when they had Brees, if that QB does fall to our draft pick, then I would expect the Browns to pull the trigger. Perhaps, we go the same route SD went and let McCoy play out next year while our new QB develops. However, it would be surprising to see the FO not address the QB position if our offense does not show significant improvement before the end of the season. IMO of course.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289 |
You yourself have said that only 3 of 11 offensive positions are worth keeping...yet Colt is the biggest problem of them all...you've even suggested that Colt should make his OL better and you screwed your own pooch when you compared Colt to Vick and Fitzpatrick. YOU made mac's point with your own analogy.
If YOU don't see what Colt does well, then anything I tell you you won't believe anyway.
We all know one thing for sure...Colt needs to play better...the entire O needs to play better.
We aren't even half-way through a season where we were expected to be 8-8 at best. Time is all we have at this exact point and through the end of the year.
In the end, your own arguments give exactly the reasons why it is reasonable to think that Colt should get more time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,289 |
Quote:
it's pretty simple. and we can use the oft-used Drew Brees example too, which is always a favorite.
Colt McCoy gets more time unless he is injured. He still has 9 more games this season (Seneca Wallace isn't taking over). At that point, he will have started 24 games. The FO and coaching staff should have a good handle on if he is picking up the blitz reads correct, how his footwork is advancing, and if he is making the proper reads (let alone throwing accurately, etc).
Now, the question will then shift as to whether or not he gets another season. That is obviously a trickier question. If he displays only what he has displayed so far, the answer is likely no. I say likely because I do not think that Heckert will 'reach' for a QB in the draft, so if it plays out that the QBs we like are gone, then we may default to one more year of McCoy (or take another mid-round developmental guy).
But, much like SD when they had Brees, if that QB does fall to our draft pick, then I would expect the Browns to pull the trigger. Perhaps, we go the same route SD went and let McCoy play out next year while our new QB develops. However, it would be surprising to see the FO not address the QB position if our offense does not show significant improvement before the end of the season. IMO of course.
Right on the money.
No materr how good/bad McCoy looks the rest of this year...if a guy lands in our lap who H&H believe is potentially a very good QB, I would expect us to seriously consider taking that guy.
And I would have no problem with that.
Trade the farm to move up for any QB? No way. Trade a top 3rd pick and a 1st to move up for a QB? Nope. Take a highly thought-of QB who lands in our lap? Sure.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,509
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,509 |
Quote:
Quote:
Another scary thing is that McCoy has fumbled 8 times in 7 games so far this season.
That's a huge concern, because even if we recover those fumbles, they are generally lost plays at best, and negative plays at worst.
The weird thing is that he only fumbled once last year.
So what does that tell you?
Perhaps he's getting hit more? I don't remember any of his fumbles being an "oops, forgot to hold on to the ball" type.
Umm .... yeah, some are "Ooops I forgot to hold onto the ball" types when pulling away from Center, or when handing off.
In the last game he was....
Sacked and fumbled. (hit almost immediately on the 2nd play of the game)
Fumbled 2 snaps.
He then fumbled on the 2nd to last play of the game, and I honestly don't recall the circumstances of that one ... because I had already looked away in disgust.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Perhaps he's getting hit more? I don't remember any of his fumbles being an "oops, forgot to hold on to the ball" type.
Have you seen any Browns games this season?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
You yourself have said that only 3 of 11 offensive positions are worth keeping..
Actually...7 of 11...and there goes the rest of your funny little post
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,448 |
I need interject that after a season and a half : I not all that impressed with Ward !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,024 |
Yeah, I'm really disappointed in Ward.
I think to be a dominant team you need a playmaker at the safety position.
In 7 games, I hardly recall seeing Ward on the field.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
Heckart gets a free pass on here for some reason. But I don't think he's such a whizbang job myself.
Joe Haden is every bit of All-Pro..but after that who has brought that are difference makers?
T.J Ward is inconsistant. Gocong can get the QB..if he's untouched..but he can't get off a block...Fujita is on the downside of a okay career.
Sheldon Brown has probally been a good mentor to Haden.
Usama Young has been a bust of a FA.
Jayme Mitchell.....is a poor mans Alex Brown
on offense..Heckart has really missed the boat. Lavauo is soft and doesn't show alot of fight. Pinkston has concrete in his cleats.
Montario Hardesty is living up to his draft worries.
Greg Little is a wait and see.
but Heckart left alot of talent in FA that could made this team better on both sides of the ball.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
You actually had a somewhat good post going... until.. Quote:
but Heckart left alot of talent in FA that could made this team better on both sides of the ball.
When are you going to get it?
We're building through the Draft, WE'RE NOT SIGNING FREE AGENTS.
The Young/Jackson style of productive/potential guys are really all you're going to see...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
I think we're going to sign FAs when the time is right..now isn't...why waste millions on a player's last peak years when our "window" is fruther down the road of that player's peak?
I think we will get more involved with every offseason...as sson as we know for sure what we still need...and that'll start this upcoming offseason
@Ward
What do you guys expect? He's a SS, not a FS...he's inconsistent but he clearly has NFL starter talent with some upside left...I still think Bob Sanders is the best comp out there for his game...sadly I think he'll be a constant injury candidate too
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961 |
Just clicking Not sure I've ever seen a bigger bunch of cry babies on a message board then I'm seeing on this thread...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 745 |
So lets go back to the Holmgren quote a couple months ago....."I like our our WR's"....."this new system will cater to their strengths"....
really..they just cut a guy who was handed the starting job this year...
how did that work out for ya..Big Mike?
Its not a crime to add FA's on your roster.....
this team has drafted so poorly on the offensive side of the football over the last 4-7 years.....it would have made since to add a real deep threat at WR..esp.when you had money to spend...
This team has very little hope on offense.....
the Browns can't run the ball...so defenses condense everything in....
then they try to run a simple slant pattern which they can't execute cause the secondary is top of everything
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
Just clicking
Not sure I've ever seen a bigger bunch of cry babies on a message board then I'm seeing on this thread...
Oh, you should go to the Donks board and read about Tebow!
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
Quote:
Just clicking
Not sure I've ever seen a bigger bunch of cry babies on a message board then I'm seeing on this thread...
Oh, you should go to the Donks board and read about Tebow!
At least they have a Draft Forum up...
#lucky 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pete Prisco Oberservations (McCoy)
|
|
