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I just have to ask these questions........
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Wow .... that's a lot of questions.
I'll have to answer then sometime .........
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We should have kept last years coaches.....Holmgren made a huge mistake by canning them....
This year we are pathetic, and right as our offense and D started developing an identity last season---we switch it up for what----for this.......
Our team is so bad its comical.......
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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i'm willing to see what the team will look like with a full offseason, another Heckert draft, and a full season of learning the new system.
yeah, our offense looks bad. but it looked worse in 2009, our only real weapon last year was Hillis (who is hurt this year), and we had to rush in learning everything this year with a young team (and starting a rookie OG and a 2nd year OG who missed most of last year).
i hate patience for the Browns because it hasn't amounted to anything yet, but I do believe in Heckert's drafting and the team should get leaps and bounds better next year. as always, we'll see.
#gmstrong
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I think this staff is here to stay. Mike Holmgren is not going to get intimidated by our fans like past people, including Randy Lerner, have.
And yes, Randy could fire Mike, but he dumped too much money into him.
I believe Holmgren and Heckert are here for the long haul, and Shurmur is going to get the benefit of the doubt this and next year.
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yeah, and for anyone who would think for a second that Shurmur could get fired after this season, they have to remember:
Holmgren kept Mangini after he started a season 1-11, had a completely different philosophical belief on how a defense should be run, and a much different philosophy on offense (though had a few WCO elements that he got from his Favre-season). yes, he won 4 games in a row to close out that season, but noone would have said much if he let him go.
now, he has his hand-picked HC and a system that was deployed without an offseason and without the teams #1 offensive weapon from 2010 (for the most part). i'm willing to make a pretty hefty bet that Shurmur gets another year (and at the very least another 2 years). and, i'm willing to say that any HC deserves as much.
#gmstrong
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Yeah definitely, and I'm ok with that. I think if we're at this point next year, and it's the same garbate we're seeing, Shurmur should be worried, but he will have the rest of this year, and a full slate of OTA's, the draft, and free agency (which if I'm correct, we now have to meet that basment number, correct?) as well as a full training camp to be better next year.
He's still got plenty of time to prove he can be the guy.
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Yeah definitely, and I'm ok with that. I think if we're at this point next year, and it's the same garbate we're seeing, Shurmur should be worried, but he will have the rest of this year, and a full slate of OTA's, the draft, and free agency (which if I'm correct, we now have to meet that basment number, correct?) as well as a full training camp to be better next year.
He's still got plenty of time to prove he can be the guy.
+1
I'm in no hurry to fire anyone in the Browns organization. Think about it, the faster we fire people, the less likely anyone would ever accept a job offer. "We'd like to offer you the head coaching job here in Cleveland. If you're under .500 after you're 7th game, the fans will start trying to run you out of town and eventually you'll be fired by the end of your first season along with the entire front office. Interested?"
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I think Holmgren screwed up by keeping Mangini for a year.... not because I have anything against Mangini but it was fairly obvious that his "one year audition" wasn't going to be enough unless he did something really dramatic...
I would either rather still have Mangini and replaced Daboll..
Or I would rather be in the second year of our new HC right now..
It's almost like Holmgren kept Mangini so that he could hold out and have a better selection of coaches to pick from... then he went out and got Shurmur who wasn't exactly a hot commidity and the equivalent of Shurmur could have been found at any time...
The whole thing made no sense to me.
That said, Shurmur obviously gets next season, bring in the OC and hopefully that will help... but if we are sitting here at 3 wins in the middle of next season and we don't even look like we can compete, then I might be calling for his head... and I won't care if we are starting a rookie QB...
yebat' Putin
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Ton of questions..
In the end, what we think doesn't matter but for my money Mangini was a better head coach then Shumur, but he also had 3 years experience when he got here and two more here. He seemed more orgainzed and the team seemed better prepared.
Having said that, with H&H coming on board, they had a different plan and Mangini doesn't fit.
Also, I think it's important to say this, Mangini didn't have to deal with the lack of mini camps and OTAs while trying to install an entirely new system on both O and D and new coaches almost everywhere.
To me, this makes a huge difference.
If I feel the same way about Mangini vs Shurmur after next season, then that's gonna be a problem.
For now, I'm ok to let it play out.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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We should have kept last years coaches....
Why?
Mangini was a terrible HC who was constantly in over his head.
He failed as a GM. He failed as a HC.
Don't get me wrong, I think Shurmur might even be worse. But that doesn't make Mangini look better by comparison.
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I liked a lot of what Mangini did......I think he built a Jets team that Rob Ryan is now charged with leading....
I think that given time, Mangini would have built the same thing here. I liked the fact that he was a defensive guy, he demanded his players be tough and wanted to build a physical team to compete in a physical division....I also believe that we were really getting somewhere with regard to that.
While some questioned his decisions, which is really inevitable in this business, I firmly believed that he got the most out of his players week to week.
I think he assembled a great coaching staff, and really had us moving in the right direction...
I think the GM thing wasn't entirely his fault---the GM that came in with him pretty much quit right before the draft---and despite what has been said about that situation---none of us will really ever know the how/what/why, with regard to the falling-out.....
I think Bigg Mike let his ego get the best of him in firing EM. Last year we were a hard-nosed competitive team that won games despite loads of injuries....we really hit a streak in the middle of the season that was only derailed once injuries piled up on a lot of playmakers on both sides of the ball---namely, Hillis, Cribbs toe injury in the Jets game, and Fujita (who was, at the time, our defensive leader, making all the calls on the field.).
I think the way he made all the players accountable, demanded everyone know their role, and understand the concept behind that role, the way he preached no excuses, and how he managed to instill disciple in this team were all strong characteristics.
His insistence on physical practices and character guys was building this team the right way....and given another year or two, we would have all been very happy...if he was here this year---we could have all been expecting playoffs and it really wouldn't be too far-fetched.
He will get another opportunity somewhere and get a ring........
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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He will get another opportunity somewhere and get a ring........
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I think he built a Jets team that Rob Ryan is now charged with leading....
If by that you mean he let the Jets fleece him repeatedly in trades, then I agree with you.
Otherwise you'll have to explain it to me. Mangini wasn't in charge of personnel decisions in NY, and his philosophies differ greatly with Ryan's. Ryan made a dramatic overhaul when he took over that team. Different QB, different RB's, different WR's, different LB's ...
What exactly did Mangini 'build' there?
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I think the GM thing wasn't entirely his fault
The choices he made as a de facto GM were most certainly his fault. The 2009 draft set this team back 3-5 years, and Mangini shipped off our most desirable pieces for nothing.
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His insistence on physical practices and character guys was building this team the right way.
His insistence on character guys is a textbook definition of building a team the wrong way.
Mangini wanted to prove to the world that he could win with cerebral, high character guys who lacked talent. He wanted to show everyone that you didn't need playmakers, you could win with Jason Trusniks and Rey Ventrones.
Only problem was, you can't win that way.
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He will get another opportunity somewhere and get a ring........
I doubt Mangini will ever get another head coaching gig again.
If I could turn back the clock and retain Mangini instead of bringing in Shurmur, I would. But I'd be looking to replace Mangini. He was the worst GM in the history of the NFL, and set this team back big time. And he wasn't that great as a coach, either. He could instill discipline to keep down penalties, yes, but he was a timid and at times lost game day manager
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His insistence on character guys is a textbook definition of building a team the wrong way.
Mangini wanted to prove to the world that he could win with cerebral, high character guys who lacked talent. He wanted to show everyone that you didn't need playmakers, you could win with Jason Trusniks and Rey Ventrones.
Only problem was, you can't win that way.
Do you have anything to back that up?
Because IMO, it appeared to me that Mangini came in here in 2009 and had a plan (aka a process)
And in that plan he tore this team down and started building from the bottom, fortifying the ST unit, the Online, and the Defense.
He was building a solid running game. And at first winning right away wasn't the plan (which everyone seems to be ok with now)
But then suddenly Holgren got hired, and he had someone to answer to that didn't agree with his style, and now he had to prove himself and pretty much change his plan before it ever got rolling...
Then add to the fact that in 09 he had Quinn/DA, and in 10 Holmgren gives him.. Jake Delhomme? Really? Come on now...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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You really want me to back up my statement that you can't win without talented players?
I guess I could start with Mangini's 10-22 record here.
Cerebral, character guys like Ray Ventrone and Brian Robiskie can be nice pieces, but you can't build a team on them.
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You can't prove you statement that "He was trying to prove you can win without talented players"
Because you don't KNOW what he was trying to do, because his plan never got to be completed.
Just because we HAD guys like Ventrone and Robiskie doesn't mean they were our CORE guys.
People kept freaking out that Ventrone was playing Defense, well guess what, when it's the middle of the season and everyone else is hurt, guess who gets to play?
We had a sgtrong defense and based on it beat NO, NE and almost(should have) beat NYJ, and then during the Jets game Fujita our Defensive leader went down, and then "suddenly" our defense went to crap... hmmm what a coincadence...
I'm not saying we would have done anything with Mangini, because that's an unknown, just like all the people saying we NEVER would have won with Mangini is an unknown.
He wasn't RAC, he didn't get 4 solid years here to build anything. He barely got 1...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Given 4 years, we would have all been very happy with the results.....except for DJ who apparently has some personal vendetta against the man......
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Quote:
His insistence on character guys is a textbook definition of building a team the wrong way.
Mangini wanted to prove to the world that he could win with cerebral, high character guys who lacked talent. He wanted to show everyone that you didn't need playmakers, you could win with Jason Trusniks and Rey Ventrones.
I'm going to have to politely disagree with you there.
No eff that, you don't know your head from a hole in the ground.
Building a team based on smart, tough, hard-working, high-character guys is EXACTLY the RIGHT way! Of course you have to have some talented guys too. The goal is to find talented guys that are ALSO smart and high-character guys (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Calvin Johnson, LaDainian Tomlinson etc).
However, if you have a solid core of individuals that are already high-character then you can take a flier on the occasional talent who isn't See: Randy Moss on Patriots. So the point is you have to get that culture and base FIRST.
Mangini STARTED implementing his plan by cleaning house of our prima donnas (Winslow, Leon..I mean Braylon) then bringing in high character guys, instilling discipline on the team and molding us into a tough-nosed running football team. The problem was he never got the opportunity to FINISH the process by getting the talented play makers to actually win.
So yes, looking back his 2 teams never had enough talent to win but only because he had to clean house first. NOT because his philosophy was wrong. His philosophy was dead nuts, 100% spot on.
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You really want me to back up my statement that you can't win without talented players?
No, back up the statement that he didn't want talented players..
Ray Ventrone? We signed a free agent and paid him less than $1 million a year.. I don't think Mangini was counting on him to be a cornerstone of the team, he was a veteran presence to fill a spot while he built the team..
yebat' Putin
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No, back up the statement that he didn't want talented players..
I would cite his tenure as GM and rest my case. 
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Building a team based on smart, tough, hard-working, high-character guys is EXACTLY the RIGHT way! Of course you have to have some talented guys too.
Your second sentence tells the story.
Mangini had SEVEN chances in the first two rounds of the 2009 draft to acquire some talent, and he passed in favor of trying to get cerebral, high-motor, high-character guys.
We started with the #5 pick and two second rounders, and we wound up with Alex Mack, Mohamed Massaquoi, Brian Robiskie and David Veikune.
That is a recipe for failure.
But, y'know, I don't know my head from a hole in the ground, so maybe it was a brilliant philosophy after all. 
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The fact that Mangini made some bad picks doesn't necessarily mean the thought process is wrong. 
yebat' Putin
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The fact that Mangini made some bad picks doesn't necessarily mean the thought process is wrong.
The thought process was to acquire cerebral, high-motor, high character guys. He wanted lunchpail blocking WR's, and he got two of them. In the second round.
If you think that thought process is a good idea, and that drafting two cerebral, blocking WR's in the second round was a good idea, I don't know what to say.
He didn't whiff on the MoMass/Robiskie/Veikune picks in terms of intent -- he got his high-character, high-motor, cerebral guys. Look at them now.
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Look at them now, in a completely different system, Not even 3 full years after he drafted them...
Yeah, that's not skewed at all...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Look at them now, in a completely different system, Not even 3 full years after he drafted them...
Yeah, that's not skewed at all...
David Veikune is out of the NFL. If you want to debate his merits as a player, we can do that, but I'll go ahead and assert that he wasn't NFL material.
Robiskie isn't far behind in that regard. If he lights it up in Jacksonville, you can come back and mock me for it, but I think he's been fairly regarded as a failed pick.
Massaquoi, I think, has some talent, and could be a 1,000 yard receiver in this league.
Do you honestly think I'm 'skewing' the failure of that second round?
Maybe I am ... after all, I can't tell my head from a hole in the ground because I think that drafting high character, high motor, cerebral guys in rounds where every other team in the NFL looks for talent.
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
More consistently than we'd all like.
#GMSTRONG
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
More consistently than we'd all like.
So obviously every failed draft pick means whoever selected them doesn't want talent on their team...
..Right?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
More consistently than we'd all like.
So obviously every failed draft pick means whoever selected them doesn't want talent on their team...
..Right?
And what version of logic where you using to come to that erroneous conclusion?
#GMSTRONG
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PhilDawsonRocks' logic that because Mangini's draft picks failed, it meant he was TRYING to win WITHOUT talented players...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Well they did part ways with Braylon Edwards, Kellen Winslow Jr, and Martin T. Rucker. ( I did it, I got another Rucker reference in here. ) Schurmur is the current coach of the Browns, so unless you want to invent a time machine Mangini's not going to help the Browns win any of the next 7+ games this year. Playoffs? Yeah it's mathmatical.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
More consistently than we'd all like.
So obviously every failed draft pick means whoever selected them doesn't want talent on their team...
..Right?
For someone who accused me of not being able to tell my head from a hole in the ground, you seem to lack some basic reading comprehension skills.
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
More consistently than we'd all like.
So obviously every failed draft pick means whoever selected them doesn't want talent on their team...
..Right?
For someone who accused me of not being able to tell my head from a hole in the ground, you seem to lack some basic reading comprehension skills.
So do you, it was Graff that said that.
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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Veikune was definitely a miss, 110%. There is no excuse for that one, he just missed.
So have many of our other picks. It happens, unfortunately.
More consistently than we'd all like.
So obviously every failed draft pick means whoever selected them doesn't want talent on their team...
..Right?
For someone who accused me of not being able to tell my head from a hole in the ground, you seem to lack some basic reading comprehension skills.
So do you, it was Graff that said that.
Let's not let facts get in the way of anything here...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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