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My comments where made in regards to Tebow and Denver !... sheeeees 
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If we were 5-5 running the Te-Bowne Offense... You'd here ALOT of people around here saying the same basic stuff they are about Denver.
Winning doesn't always blind people.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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No one is saying he's a good Quarterback, or that this offense can be successful long term, but let me ask you this....
What is wrong with rooting for a guy that does EVERYTHING right off the field? A guy that by all accounts is a truly good person?
What is wrong with rooting for a guy like that to succeed?
Do I think he's an NFL QB?
Nope.
Do I hope he proves me and everyone else wrong?
Absolutely.
The same way I don't root for the Kardashians. There famous for nothing. Yet for some reason we get these talentless hacks shoved onto us by the media. I feel the same way about Tim. He may be the greatest guy ever. I don't watch football for guidance on how to live my life. I watch it to be entertained. The option to me isn't entertaining. It's why I don't watch Navy play football. Do you?
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Tebow is "famous" for being a Heisman trophy winner among other things, in the realm of the football world, that occasionally means something.
It's OK that you're not "entertained" by the option.
I'm not entertained by the current product the Browns put on the field, should I root against them?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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If Sanchez didn't gift wrap that pick six we'd all be talking about Tebow's 9 of 20 104 yard joke of a QB stat line.
If "If's" and "buts" were candy and nuts,, we'd all be feasting about now 
The thing is, why aren't you saying that Sanchez lost the game instead of beating on Tebow for winning it?
Tebow took advantage of a mistake and made the Jets pay. For better or worse, that's what this game comes down to most times.
I'm convinced that because this kid is considered a "goody two shoes" people just feel the need to pick on him.
I think the kid is finding a way to win in the NFL.. I will NEVER find any fault in that..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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2 time National Champion, Heisman Trophy winner, arguably the greatest COLLEGE quarterback to ever play the game, and he's famous for nothing?  I'm not sure why you have such an issue with Tebow, but it's funny.
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Tim Tebow, The John Cena of the NFL.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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2 time National Champion, Heisman Trophy winner, arguably the greatest COLLEGE quarterback to ever play the game, and he's famous for nothing?
I'm not sure why you have such an issue with Tebow, but it's funny.
No kidding.....
I told my dad today that if Tim ever gets his passing down he could be really dangerous.... I find it amazing that he basically sucks it up for 3 quarters and then when the game is on the line he keeps pull off these crazy drives to win... I can't watch the whole game but I do find myself turning on denver games late to see if he can do it again.
Is he the answer long term? Who knows... I doubt it... I do think if he gets some talent at WR and is allowed to run some of the same stuff he did at UF that he could be pretty successful... but you gotta figure eventually it's going to catch up with his body or defense are going to be able to shut him down.
I mean if Sanchez doesn't throw that pick or if the LBer (forget his name) for the Jets stays outside on his blitz Denver probably doesn't win... with that said... that's why you play the game.... Crazy as it is Tim has lead them to 4 wins which has placed them right in the middle of the playoff hunt for their division.... can't remember the last time we were at the end of Nov and talking playoffs in Cleveland....
<><
#gmstrong
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Troy Smith and Eic Crouch won the Hiesman. How long did the media ride those trains?
And no I'm not happy with the product the Browns are fielding. I'll always root for them. And against EVERYONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE! (Unless playing against our AFC North competitors) And you certainly won't catch me rooting for a Donkey, any more than I would a Rat or Squeeler. If you aren't a Brown I want you to fail. Sorry. That's how I roll.
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How many National Championships did Troy Smith and Eric Crouch win?
Where were they drafted in the draft?
How many starts did they make?
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Troy Smith and Eic Crouch won the Hiesman. How long did the media ride those trains?
I can't, in all good conscience, compare Smith and Crouch to Tebow.. His college career was so much stronger than either of them.
Smith is still in the league somewhere and may yet get a chance to produce. We'll see.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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No one is saying he's a good Quarterback
Not anymore they aren't. Last year and coming out of college though... 
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or that this offense can be successful long term
I'm not going to go digging to find it, but yes, some have said this offense can succeed long-term.
The problem is that this offense isn't actually working right now. It just LOOKS like it's working because of the W at the end of the game.
A win doesn't mean the offense works. It means the team won. HUGE difference.
I'm not going to get into Tebow the person. I haven't seen anyone taking shots at him as such. This is a football board and I have no interest in that topic. I only care about football. If that means someone is going to suggest I'm not in his corner, then that's their own idiotic problem and I couldn't give a rats ass about'em and their stOOpid opinion.
So, back to the original question: Can the Broncos offense be successful running the option?
Maybe I'm going to repeat something that's already been said. In fact, I'm rather certain I probably will. I don't read every post in every thread these days so that's a possibility.
Yes, the Broncos can have some success running the option, but only in the very short-term. To date, they haven't as of yet had any real success. No team over the long-haul is going to have a "successful" offense averaging something like the 300 yards per game they are averaging right now with Tebow running the spread.
Now, I'm going to skip over WHY the team has won games. That's not the question at hand, suffice it to say it's not because of the spread offense.
Taking a look back at the history of the league tells people what they need to know. There have been offenses which have succeeded in the short-term, but eventually, the league, driven by parity, has always caught up with the schemes, and have always found ways to exploit the weaknesses. An example of this was the demise of the Run and Shoot in it's pure form.
The inherent weaknesses were two-fold:
1) Lack of a power running game to run out the clock, stemming from a lack of TE's on the roster and advanced running plays.
2) The inability of the offensive line to adequately protect the QB from hits because so many receivers are out in the pattern. Eventually, the QB would get blasted, and in the NFL, when you're down to your backup, 95% of the time you're history.
So what are the inherent weaknesses of the spread?
For starters, in a passing league, teams cannot possibly implement enough quality read-options on the ground as well as in the air. It's just too much information to absorb and execute week-in and week-out. When current teams in the NFL fall behind by multiple scores, most have the ability to dig up enough pure pass plays to at least make an effort to come back, assuming of course they aren't limited by their line and QB, but that should go without saying because of the premise of this discussion. Along that train of thought, spread-offenses in college can run the same plays over and over and still expect success. They do it all the time. In the NFL, teams catch on VERY quickly, so repetitive plays won't have nearly the same degree of success, leading to what would necessarily be an expanded playbook.
Like the Run and Shoot, the QB is going to take too many hits to last an entire season with any reliability. This one doesn't need any further explanation. Eventually your QB is going to get knocked out of the game, and when he does, teams won't be able to march out an adequate backup QB who has enough reps to run the massively complex read-option offense which would be required to fool NFL defenses.
Remember, in college, there's a HUGE talent gap between the top offensive teams and the defenses they typically play against. Just ask Bradford and McCoy. At the NFL level, the talent gap is much, much smaller, so there are no easy wins like there are in college.
Finally, as I've already alluded to, defenses catch up to virtually every offense sooner or later because of parity and smarts from the coaches. When a spread offense, which is in effect a gimmicky offense, comes into play, it's just a matter of time before the defense figures it out. Then what? You end up like the Oilers and Lions, which had to TOTALLY retool their entire rosters and organizations because they had to scrap their gimmicky offenses.
So can the Broncos have success running this offense? Maybe if they figure out how to run it. To date, they haven't yet. It's possible they can implement it quickly enough to stay ahead of the defenses in the short-term. In the long-term? The odds are very, very, VERY long......
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I'm convinced that because this kid is considered a "goody two shoes" people just feel the need to pick on him.
I'm convinced if he wasn't such a goody two shoes we'd all see him for what he is. A horrible NFL QB that plays on a team that wins despite him. Perspective I guess.
How would this conversation play out if the exact stat line, along with W-L record, was put up by a Ryan Leaf type character? Would you all be championing an opponents QB still?
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Would you all be championing an opponents QB still?
not many are 'championing' Tim Tebow here.
'Peen is,but if a QB was a big part of my college team winning 2 nat'l championships, I probably would too.
Top mentioned that he thinks he's a bad QB, but likes him as a person and so it's hard not to root for him (though his post came off as perhaps sarcastic since that's what the media drubs in constantly)
Heldawg and myself have mentioned we are extremely interested in the offense itself. I have mentioned how poorly Tebow and the offense did last night. Heldawg has stayed mostly away from analyzing Tebow himself.
And a bunch of other people have a few posts (general consensus is most think the spread-option can work short term but not long term much like the wildcat).
#gmstrong
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I do think if he gets some talent at WR and is allowed to run some of the same stuff he did at UF that he could be pretty successful...
I just want to mention that his receivers are plenty talented.
Eric Decker is a very good WR right now and getting better. He was an absolute STUD at Minnesota and was one of my favorite players in the draft that year.
Demaryius Thomas is basically a bigger, faster version of Greg Little. He was a first round draft pick and the first WR taken overall in the 2010 draft.
Eddie Royal is a lightening in a bottle type slot receiver that is one of the better WR at his specific position in the league.
Tim Tebow has plenty of WR talent to throw to.
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I am going to disagree. I think this offense (well not the one they are currently running, but the spread-O that Florida ran with Tebow and Oregon runs) can succeed for ONE team in the NFL. First, it is an extremely hard offense to gameplan for and since you are only seeing it once (maybe twice) a year, it is even harder to plan for. Second, the real spread -O (which is primarily out of the gun) has pass reads and screens, which makes it much tougher to defend compared to what Denver is running now. Third, if they are the only team running it they will have a huge advantage in the draft and free agency, as their offensive players will be super cheap and easy to obtain, since no one else will be after those same guys. Which leads to four, they will then be able to really stock up on defense through the draft and contracts. The problem I see is that like all quirky things in the NFL, is that if someone else tries to copy it, both teams will lose, because there aren't enough NFL quality spread guys to go around (right now).
As a side note, I would also run this in a hurry up, Oregonesque style since NFL d's simply are accustomed to getting nearly the full 40 seconds between every play to rest.
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So can the Broncos have success running this offense? Maybe if they figure out how to run it.
Exactly my point.
Meyer was in Denver 2-3 weeks ago. He wasn't just there to sight see....a big portion of what he did was work with the Denver coaches on spread 101.....what we are seeing right now.
It's only going to get better..and I agree, it must....but it will.
I watched Tebow from his first game....he isn't a bad passer. Will he ever be a Sonny Jeurgensen with a bullet
pass....no....will he be a great passer....no....but he can be a good passer.
Denver is now in the process of bringing in option guys to help.....probably both on the field and in the film room.
I am not worried about it....it will work. Think about it.....it combines aspects of every O....it spreads the field to create space, it uses aspects of the wishbone that create problems, it has 2-3 options on many of the plays, it is a WCO type passing attack....controlled yet takes down field shots.
Moreno will be pretty good in that O....Denver needs a quicker TE....no blocking guys in this O.
You are seeing the future Gentlemen, embrace it.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
Quote:
I do think if he gets some talent at WR and is allowed to run some of the same stuff he did at UF that he could be pretty successful...
I just want to mention that his receivers are plenty talented.
Eric Decker is a very good WR right now and getting better. He was an absolute STUD at Minnesota and was one of my favorite players in the draft that year.
Demaryius Thomas is basically a bigger, faster version of Greg Little. He was a first round draft pick and the first WR taken overall in the 2010 draft.
Eddie Royal is a lightening in a bottle type slot receiver that is one of the better WR at his specific position in the league.
Tim Tebow has plenty of WR talent to throw to.
I agree....he needs a quick back...McGaee isn't it, and he needs a quick TE...
I am not sure how tall his receivers are, but tall helps.
That first play of the game was a UF play all the way, fire it up for at the time a Louis Murphy or Riley Cooper to snag.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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If they could get LeMichael James next april...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Top mentioned that he thinks he's a bad QB, but likes him as a person and so it's hard not to root for him (though his post came off as perhaps sarcastic since that's what the media drubs in constantly)
Oh no, I was dead serious. Tebow seems like a generally good guy. With everything that happens in sports from Big Ben sexual assults, Vick dog fighting, Ray Lewis murder trial, and even the supposed to be good guys (Marvin Harrison), etc. it's hard not to root for a guy like Tebow.
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Good for you man....I agree.
Yep, I am a Florida guy so I might have a bigger reason in some peoples mind, but that isn't the case. I call it like it is. TT is a nice guy who goes out of his way to help people.
It might seem strange in this day and age, but it is the way it seems.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm convinced that because this kid is considered a "goody two shoes" people just feel the need to pick on him.
I'm convinced if he wasn't such a goody two shoes we'd all see him for what he is. A horrible NFL QB that plays on a team that wins despite him. Perspective I guess.
How would this conversation play out if the exact stat line, along with W-L record, was put up by a Ryan Leaf type character? Would you all be championing an opponents QB still?
Stats are losers
Except for one... W/L record..Right now, he's winning. Will that continue? hell if know. But for this moment in time, he's winning.. So come up off the kids butt already...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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j/c
Tim Tebow...is...
By Far..
The biggest douche-milkshake that has ever laced 'em up as a professional quarterback.
Bar-none.
His skills at the position are ridiculously lacking, and I think Ronnie Brown would be a better option...
The kid obviously means well, and so its really sad that he is such a...well--already went there....
Only TT could have all these people talking about a QB who can't throw the ball, struggles to complete a pass---and is generally worthless beyond his outspoken christianship and his slowly dying NFL career.
ANy teams playing the Donks just need to play him as a runner---not a passer and so long as you don't suck it up offensively--you should win.....
TT is a novelty act....
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Interestingly enough, it seems everyone that criticizes Tebow says the same things: He can't throw, his release is terrible, his accuracy is suspect, and, he's a Christian.
Seems odd to me. Why throw that in there?
What they neglect to mention is: The Broncos are winning with him at qb. That's odd to omit.
But we also hear "well, they won't be winning for long. Can't win in the nfl in a system like that, he's the worst nfl qb ever, and he can shove his Christianity". Again - the broncos are winning. Might not last, but it might.
But why all the hate about him being a stand up guy (forget his religion for a second) - why hate the guy?
Doesn't make sense to me on most levels - but on one level, I completely understand (disagree with, but understand) the criticism of him.
I hope he does well for one reason only - because he's a good guy.
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I am Christian, I am glad Tebow is a christian. I have no problem with him praying at all. As a matter of fact MORE people need to be like that imo. He is a great human being, the world needs more people like that. I am being serious. 
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never would have thought that from your posts... but thats a cool thing....im trying to be...really I'am...
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never would have thought that from your posts... but thats a cool thing....im trying to be...really I'am...
I am not the best example because I can be cynical. However I am never ashamed to admit it.
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It's funny that Reggie White was an ordained Christian Minister .... and they just nicknamed him the Minister of Defense .....
Guys on the Browns like Colt McCoy and Reggie Hodges are very up front about their Christianity. No one blasts them.
For some reason, though, people greatly dislike Tebow for some reason. I still have trouble seeing him as being successful long term as a QB in the NFL ...... but it's not because he's a Christian.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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honestly....the christian thing is really...very relevant..
Cuz with his throwing mechanics....every completion is an absolute miracle......
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I'm a christian and I love the fact that Tebow can be open about his religion. I think Tebow is an exemplary young man and is exactly the type of role model I would want my kid to follow.
With that being said:
Do I think the Broncos offense is gimmicky? Yes
Do I think it can work? Yes, but Will it sustain? No
Why? Because this is the NFL gimmick offenses get figured out. Look at Miami in 2008. Wildcat offense came out and no one could beat it. They went 11-5. Then they went 7-9 in 2009, 7-9 in 2010 and this year they are 2-7.
Can Tebow develop into something more? I believe he can, but if he doesn't improve then they will get exposed.
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lead by example..it's okay to talk foot ball and not be cynical...tha'ts the lords way.. ... let's get back to Why the Bronco's win with TeBow... 
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honestly....the christian thing is really...very relevant..
Cuz with his throwing mechanics....every completion is an absolute miracle......
I disagree with criticizing Tebow for his religion... But this was funny.
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Interestingly enough, it seems everyone that criticizes Tebow says the same things: He can't throw, his release is terrible, his accuracy is suspect, and, he's a Christian.
Seems odd to me. Why throw that in there?
Exactly why I was saying that the thing that seems to rile people up is NOT JUST that he's not a great QB,(not yet a finished product) but that he's christian.. I just can't figure that out. makes no sense.
Quite a few folks on here talk about how bad a QB McCoy seems to be, but I've not heard once that he's a christian.
why is that?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Quite a few folks on here talk about how bad a QB McCoy seems to be, but I've not heard once that he's a christian.
why is that?
I dare say, that if you asked most NFL QBs, that they'd reply that they're Christians.
I'll take that a step further. If you asked most NFL players about their religious views, most would indicate that they're Christians.
I think the overwhelming minority would be of other faiths or atheists.
Just sayin'.
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Part of the reason that gimmicky offenses get "figured out" is because many teams start doing the same gimmicks, and then teams prepare for it more than once per year.
I cannot see multiple teams in the NFL going to the option ..... unless Denver becomes hugely successful doing so.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I can.
It may not be next year, but as QBs as we have known them become scarce, something is going to replace them.
I'll be honest and hope everyone else is as well. When I was first saying Tebow would get a shot to play, I never imagined we would see the switch to this style of ball this soon. Some never did, but here it is.
You might see Vince Young doing this fairly soon as well.
Well see how this goes next year. Denver doesn't even have a full playbook at this point. The other night they were saying Tebow was making suggestions to the staff on what to add to compliment some of the few plays they had.
What you are seeing now is like seeing a WCO with 15 plays in the book. Like any offense, some plays set up others. Right now Denver doesn't have the others, so we are seeing a fairly watered down O.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,425
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,425 |
The problem is that you need multiple QBs versed in the option if you are going to run it full time.
I'm still not sure that the option will be anything in the NFL. The option relies upon superior speed, because you are bringing the defense to the pitch, and you typically are only pitching the ball a few yards to the same side of the field. A fast defense can defense that easier than it can a more traditional drop back/roll out offense. That's a concern .... and a big reason why NFL teams have not run too much option lately. A fast defense can more easily shut down the option than it can a more traditional, balanced attack.
Also, you win in the NFL with the passing game. Look at the league leaders in passing TDs. 14 of the top 15 teams in passing TDs are .500 or above. (and 15 is San Diego, and they lose points for Norv Turner anyway) Only 9 of the top 15 in rushing TDs are .500 or above. This is a passing league, and you MUST have a great passing game in order to win, and win consistently.
Now maybe the Broncos will continue this offense after this year. Part of me doubts it. I think that it is more an indictment against Orton and Quinn than it is an endorsement of Tebow. Right now what the Broncos are doing is what other teams have done, and that is scale back the passing game ... run the ball, and play defense. They control the clock, and try to manage the total number of possessions, and shorten the game. It's not really a new technique .... it's been tried numerous times. The only teams I can recall who rode that formula to a Super Bowl win was the Ravens ..... and their defense was a whole lot better than the Broncos. The only difference is that instead of running the ball with just the RBs, they include the QB in the running game, and instead of using hand offs and pitches, they also use some option looks. It's not revolutionary. I don't see it as some major change to the game like the invention of the forward pass. lol
Anyway ..... I don't see the Broncos winning much with the option. They really are just playing run the ball/play defense .. and that's nothing new in the NFL. It might get them to a winning record, and maybe even the playoffs, but the margin for error in such a system, as we have seen in recent years, is so small that games can be lost on a single play.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,867 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quite a few folks on here talk about how bad a QB McCoy seems to be, but I've not heard once that he's a christian.
why is that?
I dare say, that if you asked most NFL QBs, that they'd reply that they're Christians.
I'll take that a step further. If you asked most NFL players about their religious views, most would indicate that they're Christians.
I think the overwhelming minority would be of other faiths or atheists.
Just sayin'.
I don't doubt that for a second. So why is it an issue when it comes to Tebow? is it because he celebrates his faith openly? Is that what rubs people the wrong way?
Personally, I just don't see how it matters..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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I read a lot of conjecture and speculation on whether or not this offense will work or not.
So let's trace it back to the history of the game. For those who know the answer to this, why has a spread option O not traditionally worked in the NFL?
The answer to that question will tell you if it's got a chance because we will know if those answers are still valid or not.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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I can see most people's issue with Tebow.
It's actually not Tebow, it's how the media shoves him down your throat.
It's the same reason people hate Coach K. Same reason people hate Tom Brady.
Guys that have done NOTHING to deserve the hate, but the way the media forces them on you, it makes people grow tired of them.
I choose to ignore the media and root for Tebow anyway.
Forget debating if he's a good QB or not. Forget debating if you agree with his religion. Forget debating if you think it's right for him to openly show his faith, etc. Tebow is a great person, regardless of his skills on the field. Regardless of his religious views. He's a great person. I choose to root for good people to succeed.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Can the Broncos offense be
successful running the option?
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