I'm glad they kept winning. It takes Elway out of the top QB picks next year and he will be forced to go with Tim dispite the lousy QB play for 57 mins of every game. Just a matter of time before they come back to reality.
Quote: I'm glad they kept winning. It takes Elway out of the top QB picks next year and he will be forced to go with Tim dispite the lousy QB play for 57 mins of every game. Just a matter of time before they come back to reality.
Probably so, or until that bad QB play becomes less.
Young QB's flash. They have bad moments, and the good ones have some good moments.
The fact he puts it together in crunch time tells me things look pretty bright in Denver.
I agree. Today was lucky with the fumble, but then again, nobody here complains about luck when it comes to the Browns.
You take it the way it comes.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Give it up, already. Cripe, the dude is 7-1! If he loses to the Pats, he'll be 7-2. I'll take that kind of suckitude anytime. I was never a Tebow fan, but I'll give the kid his props. He knows how to win games.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Your "They keep winning so you ought to pipe down!" weighted argument would hold sway if we were only building a case against the Broncos as a whole, but this is strictly about the QB play of Tim Tebow.
This entire argument surrounding Tebow is really cementing the old adage that quarterbacks receive too much credit when a team wins, yet shoulder too much burden when they lose. It's also the perfect example of the importance of organizationally going forward with the right quarterback and debating rationally whether or not you have "the guy" under center after a reasonable sample size of games. It's what makes choices like giving DA a premature three year deal or not, whether you give a guy like Quinn more time "due to supporting cast", etc. such crucial, difficult decisions for a front office and coaching staff.
The big issue with Tebow is just how charged up and sensationalized of a story this is from so many angles.
Schematically you have a guy coming from a spread system who takes punishment on the ground. He's struggled to move the ball consistently and accurately through the air. They've re-tooled the offense to mask his deficiencies and accentuate strengths. The league has a history of shutting down up-and-coming, gimmick offenses like the Run and Shoot and Wildcat in recent memory. I'd say the main constant behind that has been the speed of NFL defenses. Despite all that, to this point the end result has been that they've been able to win seven of their last eight. Why is that? It's not all about QB play. The defense (Von Miller's been a beast and having Dumerville back gives them a fierce pass rush and they have a solid, opportunistic secondary), special teams (Matt Prater draining 59 and 51 yard FGs respectively for the tie and ultimate win today after minimal movement offensively), and a solid running game have gone a long way against a weaker schedule. The windows he's seen in his highlights while he's struggled to complete half of his passes just aren't going to be there unless it's garbage time against teams that can score quickly through the air. As a passer thus far, he's shown to be anything but a sure thing. That what it's all hinging on still.
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Tebow would make Greg Little catch passes, our defense learn how to stop the run, Shurmur call smart plays, heal Hillis' hamstring, inspire Pashos and Lauvao to block, make Sheldon Brown feel young again, and our linebackers not suck overall.
Quote: Tebow would make Greg Little catch passes, our defense learn how to stop the run, Shurmur call smart plays, heal Hillis' hamstring, inspire Pashos and Lauvao to block, make Sheldon Brown feel young again, and our linebackers not suck overall.
No. He wouldn't.
But I find it sadly ironic that so many on here say that the Broncos win IN SPITE of Tebow - yet they also turn around and say the Browns lose because of McCoy.
Who cares who is responsible for the Broncos winning with Tebow at qb...........Cripes, we hear every week how terrible he is - yet he gets no respect - it's always "the defense won the game", or, as in today "the other team gave it away".
Yet for the Browns, all we hear is "Colt sucked - it's his fault we lost".
That's all well and good, except the Bears did give the game away. If Barber stays in bounds they punt with 26 seconds, and the Broncos have to go 50 yards in under 20 seconds, instead of a minute.
Quote: Tebow would make Greg Little catch passes, our defense learn how to stop the run, Shurmur call smart plays, heal Hillis' hamstring, inspire Pashos and Lauvao to block, make Sheldon Brown feel young again, and our linebackers not suck overall.
But I find it sadly ironic that so many on here say that the Broncos win IN SPITE of Tebow - yet they also turn around and say the Browns lose because of McCoy.
this.
If any team wins more than 10 games this year.... it will have taken our lovely Cleveland Browns team over 3 seasons to accomplish. If the packers go 15-1 or 16-0 this season that span will have taken the Browns 5 seasons for Browns fans to see that many wins. yuk.
No one can diminish the important part that Tebow has played in the Broncos success.
Personally, I don't care all that much ... because it's the Broncos ...... but he has done an impressive job. He's what ... 7-1 as a starter? That's one hell of a job no matter how you play the position.
He has shown the ability to shake off a bad game, and make plays at the end to win. he takes care of the ball. hell, he's got 11 TD passes and only 2 INT for the year. He creates big plays. When he gets an opportunity with the game on the line, he takes advantage of it.
His completion percentage would seem to be a concern, but he has almost as many 20 yard+ big plays in the passing game in 198 attempts (19) as McCoy does in 463 attempts.(26) Add in that he's also run for 500+ yards and 3 TD, and he's having a very nice year.
I do question whether or not his style of play will work in the playoffs, against elite defenses .... but there is no denying that he has done one hell of a job so far.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: DEN D has allowed 28p/game in 5 games under Orton and only once under 20p
Under Tebow the DEN D has given up 15 or less points 5 out of 8 games
Orton threw 7 INTs in 4 games, Tebow has thrown 2 INTs in 8 games.. maybe Tebow is helping the Broncos win games by not screwing his defense like Orton did.
Going 7 and 1 in the NFL is one heck of an accomplishment and the QB deserves some level of credit for being a big part of it... dissect it however you want.
I still feel that Tebow will not prove to be a post season QB, because I don't think that his style of play will be successful against the elite defenses. However, a QB that makes plays, and doesn't turn the ball over, has a chance at winning any game.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Yeah Tebow willed Marion Barber to go out of bounds and fumble
LOL... What terrifies me is your inability to just accept the FACT that with Tebow at the helm, the Broncos are winning.. I could be wrong, but isn't that the name of the game?
And Peen,,, THere you go again, laying everything on Colt McCoy... I guess the guys that can't catch don't matter right?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: DEN D has allowed 28p/game in 5 games under Orton and only once under 20p
Under Tebow the DEN D has given up 15 or less points 5 out of 8 games
Orton threw 7 INTs in 4 games, Tebow has thrown 2 INTs in 8 games.. maybe Tebow is helping the Broncos win games by not screwing his defense like Orton did.
Going 7 and 1 in the NFL is one heck of an accomplishment and the QB deserves some level of credit for being a big part of it... dissect it however you want.
1. Orton threw 7 INTs in 5 games, not 4
2. 3 of them were against the Packers being behind by 2+ scores all game...2 of them against TEN trying to come from behind...both INT were unanswered, so the D didn't allow ANY points on those......the other INT against OAK was a hail mary before the half, that got INTed at the OAK 24, the D allowed OAK to kick a 63yd FG at the end of the half...hardly on Orton...that leaves 1 INT..that came against SD and 2 plays later Rivers INTed back
3. So, if you wold have looked closer instead of steaming off hot air, you'd have seen that none of the INT by Orton "did the DEN D in"....they allowed all those points because it was early in the season under a new HC playing against better opponents and they weren't as good yet, it's no coincidence that the D played better AFTER their bye week....it was NOT Orton's fault the D gave up so many points...and considering that 4 of the 5 games were 1 score games, it's actually pretty easy to see that the D lost those games they're now winning...the Offense output is the same, if not worse (less consistent) as I have shown....the D allows almost 8p/game less and is now therefor winning all those 1 score games they lost at the start of the season
Another classic correlation-causation brainfart by homers...Tim Tebow is simply Gladstone Gander...he's not 1 inch better than Orton, I'd even argue he's worse as I want my QB to be a better passer than runner, but that's just me
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
And Peen,,, THere you go again, laying everything on Colt McCoy... I guess the guys that can't catch don't matter right?
I would rather have a team with WRs that had as many drops as we do (hell, even more) BUT have a QB that put the ball right on the money 90% of the time (EDIT: and on time) than what we are putting on the field right now.
Obviously, I don't have an exact number. But I'd be willing to bed that the number of TERRIBLE throws from Colt resulting in incompletions far outnumbers our amount of terrible drops.
So if you keep the drops, and add a good passer, you increase productivity with only having to replace 1 person.
However, if you just replace the pass catchers and keep the same lousy passers, you not only hve to replace multiple people, but productivity only increases slightly and you only have so far you can improve (ie the QBs ceiling).
Last edited by TI84_Plus; 12/12/1110:52 AM.
Wise words spoken by sages From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
first: I wanted to note something important. Denver is not running the spread-option much anymore. they are using the threat of Tebow running to help open up holes for their RBs, but they are not running those option plays much. so, either Denver doesn't believe they can or defenses were adjusting enough for them to move out of it.
----------------------------
about the offense:
tebow had 47 yards in the first 3 quarters. 170+ in the 4th as per usual with him this year.
NFLN had a nice breakdown of Tebow that was pretty funny. they showed some of the exact same plays in the first 3 quarters that he did in the 4th quarter. one was a RB flare over the middle - 1st quarter he got his RB killed by throwing at the wrong time. 4th quarter he threw it earlier and his RB made a nice move for a 1st down. Another play where he had terrible footwork and no rhythm and in the 4th how his feet moved perfectly and he threw in rhythm.
not sure if he has a mental block until the pressure mounts or what is going on, but it was pretty distinctive and the numbers bear that out.
I would rather have a team with WRs that had as many drops as we do (hell, even more) BUT have a QB that put the ball right on the money 90% of the time (EDIT: and on time) than what we are putting on the field right now.
What freakin difference does it make.. QB that can't put it on the money or WR's that can't catch...End result, it's an incompletion.
But, to some, if the receivers don't catch, instead of being mad at the WRs, they chose to blame the QB....That's just More importantly,, to some, the QB has to be accurate every single time... If you look at guys like Rodgers or Brees,, NOT ALL THIER PASSES are on the money. But they have good enough receivers to go up and get the damn ball.
But I never see that taken into consideration.
It seems that once this crowd decides that a player isn't good, NOTHING else matters...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
His INT against the Raiders occurred when they were losing 10-3 and they were on their own 38.. who in their right mind throws a hail mary from their own 38 with 30 seconds left in the half? Sounds like an idiot decision to me. Their first FG came on a 5 yard drive because the defense handed them the ball on the 10 and they couldn't score, their first touchdown was a 90 yard punt return. Orton's last touchdown was down by 2 scores in the final 3 or 4 minutes. During that time he executed his only real drive of the game. I'm pretty sure you call those "garbage touchdowns"... at least you do for other QBs.... so Kyle Orton executed the offense to a total of 3 of their 20 points when it mattered.
Against the Bengals he had a pretty nice game, nothing spectacular, they ran the ball well, but Orton played a nice conservative game.
Quote: 2 of them against TEN trying to come from behind...both INT were unanswered, so the D didn't allow ANY points on those......
The first one came at the beginning of the second quarter when the score was 7-7... the second came with 2:45 on the clock and Denver down by 3 and they had the ball on the Tenn 39.. they were almost in game tying FG range with almost 3 minutes to play. (Also in the 4th quarter, the Denver defense forced a fumble and gave Orton the ball on the 13 of Tenn, he failed to score any points) Stop making it sound like it was some mad desperation INT that could be excused.. he choked with the game on the line TWICE.. unlike Tebow who has risen to that challenge a number of times.
Quote: 3 of them were against the Packers being behind by 2+ scores all game...
Actually the first one occurred in the first quarter when the Packers were ahead 7-3 and it was returned for a TD making it 14-3. It was 28-17 at the the half and the Broncos didn't score again until there was 3 minutes left to go in the game where he scored another "garbage touchdown" that, by your standards for other QBs, shouldn't count toward their point total
Quote: that leaves 1 INT..that came against SD and 2 plays later Rivers INTed back
The Broncos had scored 10 points going into the 4th quarter and 7 of that was an INT return.
Quote: you'd have seen that none of the INT by Orton "did the DEN D in"....they allowed all those points because it was early in the season under a new HC playing against better opponents and they weren't as good yet, it's no coincidence that the D played better AFTER their bye week....it was NOT Orton's fault the D gave up so many points...and considering that 4 of the 5 games were 1 score games, it's actually pretty easy to see that the D lost those games they're now winning...
I've already figured out your "logic".. the defense was good enough to cover all of Ortons mistakes yet, they are also solely responsible for every loss because they were young and blahblahblah. The defense scored on turnovers, the defense covered Orton on all of his mistakes, the defense gave Orton the ball on the 13 yard line in the 4th quarter of a one score game and he did nothing with it, Orton padded his numbers with late touchdowns in games that were out of reach because he couldn't score when it mattered, Orton failed to move the ball in the final 2 minutes needing a FG to tie...
I don't know why but you get all up in some players jocks and absolutely lose any rational sense of objectivity, seeing only what you want to see... I don't think Tebow is a lot better than Orton right now but his upside is off the charts compared to Orton. (And there is that whole, Tebow wins games thing) Orton came into the NFL and had 1 good year (at least the team record was good) because they had the best defense in football.. There is a reason he's on his 3rd team in 6 years..
Nice work of just twisting what my answer was all about...I responded to YOUR argument or hinting that the D allowed more points because Orton produced more TOs and that CLEARLY wasn't the case, which means ALL THOSE Points the D gave up where on them being unable to stop the opposing Offenses, NOT getting handed short field by Orton...
So, you avoid your blunder by dissecting Orton's game, lol...did I say he was a good QB? No, I didn't...Up Orton's jock? Are you kidding me? You all are deep into God's son and I am the one hyping a QB? I merely said he's somehwat better than the one who IS being hyped here and is an absolutely horrid QB, which makes a Orton "just" a bad QB
Quote: The Broncos had scored 10 points going into the 4th quarter and 7 of that was an INT return.
and Tebow had a big fat 0 going into last nights game....and the TD was pretty much a garbage time, clock burning only affair for the CHI defense gave them
10p into the 4th? That's pretty much Tebow's AVG and MO...look, I think both those QBs are well below AVG and think it's stupid to try to argue that 1 of them is something special and I also said the D is winning all those games and NOT the Offense....and I showed why and disputed your argument which I deem succesful since you opted to trash Orton now and not look at the D anymore, lol
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Our team would look A LOT better if we had a quarterback that: 1) hit receivers in stride 2) hit them on time 3) threw to the right receiver
As opposed to having receivers that: 1) caught the ball more often.
The amount of drops by receivers this year is a lot less than the amount of un-catchable throws. That has nothing to do with me blaming anyone or where the blame should be. I'm just saying that a better QB has a much bigger impact than a better WR.
Question: which scenario would make our team better, if everything else were the same as it is now:
1) Aaron Rogers is now our QB
Or
2) We have Green Bays receivers, but Colt is still our QB.
I know my answer. Ask the Colts what they think is more important.
Wise words spoken by sages From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
If yor only hope to tie or win a game is by recovering an onside kick and then score again, I consider it garbage time...the D is happy you burn 50% of what's left of the clock and know they can run it out on 3 downs....that's what happened last night if not for a monumental brainfart by Barber
Nobody on here argued much that McCoy's TD against the Raiders was garbage time..we DID recover the onside kick down 1 score and it still was pretty evident McCoy was getting his preferred underneath stuff to burn clock on that drive....Ds basically trade a TD or at least a RZ trip against enough time off the clock to get there...happens every sunday in almost every game...it works most of the time for the leading team, that's why it's considered the "safe" way of closing out a game....I would just play useless QBs like McCoy and Tebow the way I played them the shutout Qtrs before, but what do I know....coaches tend to outsmart themselves late in a game and Ds have letdowns already partying their win....pretty normal in all sports
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
You didn't ask me, but if you don't mind, I'd like a crack at it...
I'd take Rodgers today.. But that's not a slam on Tebow.. I'd take Rodgers over anyone in the league right now.. Brady, Big Ben, Brees or even Payton Manning.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: I responded to YOUR argument or hinting that the D allowed more points because Orton produced more TOs and that CLEARLY wasn't the case, which means ALL THOSE Points the D gave up where on them being unable to stop the opposing Offenses, NOT getting handed short field by Orton...
So unless the other team takes a turnover and goes on to score then that turnover essentially never happened?
Well, it does - but only in certain situations. (like if jango wants to make a point......but if you use the same statistics to show him he's wrong - then it doesn't matter.)
Because turnovers don't cost you field position, demoralize the defense, take scoring opportunities away from your own team, etc...
He argues that the defense is young and needed time to come together and that because they are young, they gave up all of those points... then he argues that they were good enough to overcome all 7 of Orton's INTs by stopping the other team.
If you stress a young defense enough, they will break and give up points... whether or not those points are on the drive immediately following an INT is irrelevant.
Tebow or Bradford? (Same draft class, and both first round picks)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
1. Why bang on someone because they're actively rooting for Tebow and have since he was a part-time substitute short yardage QB for their favorite college football team? Just let it go already. Weird. If anyone should be thrilled with this guy's success it's someone who's been rooting him on the last 5 years.
2. Norman Chad's column had this quote "Tim Tebow throws the football like it's a gummy bear stuck to his hand". I have to say that's the best description of some of his worst throws that I've ever heard. Awesome.
3. When someone says "Tebow Time" I for some reason always say it in my head just like the guy at the end of the Taco Town skit. Which makes me giggle.
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