Quote: This is my 3rd time saying this.. but I lost all respect for this dude for playing for overtime..
I didn't have a problem with that at all.
In the 4th, they were blitzing at will and our O-line had no answers. We were at our 10 with 1 minute left, and they were killing our backfield.
But hey, whatever floats your boat.
Right, expecting the Coach to dial up some long balls in that situation with a tie game on the road is just plain off the mark. Silly even.
For those of you who think that the Coach will be fired ... Forgetaboutit! It's not going to happen and he should be given another crack at it next year with an off season to work with the team that he actually knows something about by now.
Quote: This is my 3rd time saying this.. but I lost all respect for this dude for playing for overtime..
But....but... he's a first time head coach with a QB that can't play (Seneca Wallace).
Shurmur has the football smarts of a brick.
But as Big Mike said, get used to it he will be here a long time. another 4-12 season next year. >No leadership >outcoached every week > n adjustments. Arizona blitzes every down in the second half and Shurmy rarely leaves in extra blocking. Pathetic.
Quote: But as Big Mike said, get used to it he will be here a long time. another 4-12 season next year. >No leadership >outcoached every week > n adjustments. Arizona blitzes every down in the second half and Shurmy rarely leaves in extra blocking. Pathetic.
Mangini is gone...get over it...stop the..........
Yeah, Shurmur should be here next year, and at least the year after. He gets an OC next year to help with the offense and game planning. Hopefully he gives up the play calling so he can learn to be a head coach, but, unfortunately, I don't see that happening.
If Shurmur's 3rd year is not a highly successful one, then I could see the entire organization being in trouble. It would be 4+ years for Holmgren at that point, 4 for Heckert, and 3 for Shurmur. Expectations should be that this is plenty of time to get a team turned around.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: They at least need to fire the OC/Playcaller. I might not mind Big Shurm as much if he wasn't calling the plays (badly).
This statement is one that I've thought about as well and provides a bit of deja vu for me.
All through Mangini's first year I kept saying I wouldn't mind Mangini the coach as long as we fired Mangini the GM. By midway through his second year, I wanted neither.
Now I'm saying I wouldn't mind Shurmur the coach as long as we fire Shurmur the OC. I hope I feel differently his second year than I did with Mangini.
I have much higher hopes for Shurmur than I did for Mangini. I think he's the guy to get this thing turned around as a HC. But his O is beyond bad.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
That really is a telling statement. The problem is the Browns hired Shurmur as the HC because of his offense not because he was ever a good HC at any level. Now if the reason he was hired is his biggest weakness what makes you think he will be any better then what we are seeing right now, and to a bigger extent why keep him anyway?
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
Quote: Expectations should be that this is plenty of time to get a team turned around.
...and a reasonable expectation, at that, for the most part. However... what's to be done if the turnaround isn't complete (i.e. playoff-caliber team)? Another purge from the top down?
What if the team is 10-6 and misses the dance in similar fashion to the '07 squad?
I'm only asking because I look at orgs like Pitt and Balto, and I see consistency at the top. Cleveland, for reasons we all know well, hasn't settled on a regime for more than 3-4 years since '99... and it's contributed to our prennial place at the bottom of the standings. It's why we don't have an identity, it's why we are consistently pushed around within our division, and it's the root cause behind why this fan base is so fed up- whether many of them see it or not.
I submit that this team has been in such disarray for so long that 4 years might be the MINIMUM amount of time to expect decent results.
Randy Lerner has tried averything in the book but one: sitting tight on a regime long enough for them to work out ALL the kinks. When a team is this bereft of talent, its GM would have to hit on every single pick in the first 4 rounds for 3 drafts to catch up to our division leaders... and any misses will be magnified because of the dire need for excellence.
I'm just curious... do any of you Dawgs out there think we'll EVER see a regime that lives 6, 8, 10 years (or more) like Pittsburgh/Baltimore fans have seen? Frankly, I'm not really sure it will EVER happen here... and that I might, at some point down the road, simply give up on my lifelong Browns fandom.
What's the old cliche about the definition of insanity?
I think that 10-6 would be a reasonable expectation for a 3rd/4th year team. If we missed the playoffs, as long as the team appears headed in the right direction, then I wouldn't have a problem with it.
I (and others) have been around for a very long time, and I know what good football looks like. This ain't it. However, I am sick and tired of changing everything and blowing it all up every 2 or 3 years .... because we keep going back to square one ..... only without the extra picks we got in expansion.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
His O in St.Louis was barely better than it is here.He was hired because of his WCO roots,not because of outstanding coaching.Which he may very well be,it's impossible to say right now. Steve Young said it takes 3 years to master the WCO,and he's a bright guy.That's a nice built in excuse for acoupla more years.
Quote: His O in St.Louis was barely better than it is here.He was hired because of his WCO roots,not because of outstanding coaching.Which he may very well be,it's impossible to say right now. Steve Young said it takes 3 years to master the WCO,and he's a bright guy.That's a nice built in excuse for acoupla more years.
Can somebody give some examples? What teams instituted the WCO, and in what years?
He was also the QB coach in Philly for 10 years on an offense that was regularly top 10... I know he didn't call the plays but that would make a person intimately familiar with every nuance of that type of offense as it would have been his job to coach up the QBs in the offense and, I'm sure, work with the whole offensive staff in developing game plans... I'm sure this offense isn't anywhere close to the complexity it will ultimately have... and if we draft a new QB and start him week 1 next year, then I assume the complexity will look very much like it did this year... or we could draft him and let him sit a year and start him in 2013, which means that by 2015, we could be pretty decent.
Quote: I have much higher hopes for Shurmur than I did for Mangini. I think he's the guy to get this thing turned around as a HC.
I am really curious to what makes you think this?
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
As I watched his presser last night and the man would barely make eye contact with anyone it seemed a sure sign he's lost, unable to make the calls/moves/whatever necessary to bring us into respectability.
I like the walrus and am generally glad he's here but Shurmur was a mistake, I don't think he's ready for prime time.
Don't get me wrong I am not an advocate of firing anyone as of yet. Shurmer is a first time Head Coach on a team that lacks talent. That is a tough task. His offense leaves a lot to be desired and over 46 games as an offensive Coordinator scoring over 20 4 times raises some serious flags. I think he handled the Hillis situation wrong, I think the game he had Colt throw 60 times was bad, his playcalling has befuddled me at times, and his demeanor and the lack of fire I see makes me wonder how these players will respond. There is more but even so and after saying all that.
I think this offense can evolve into something good. I think this is the first stage of a complex scheme with a lot of new players and all new terminology and only 5 months into it. I think Shurmer needs to stay Pat(no pun intended) and I also think McCoy needs to continue to be starter through next year at least. I just think we need to bring in more pieces and keep growing and learning. I believe that continuity and a full offseason with some solid additions will keep us moving in the right direction. They need to just stick with it.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Quote: Expectations should be that this is plenty of time to get a team turned around.
...and a reasonable expectation, at that, for the most part. However... what's to be done if the turnaround isn't complete (i.e. playoff-caliber team)? Another purge from the top down?
What if the team is 10-6 and misses the dance in similar fashion to the '07 squad?
I would be ecstatic if this team wins 10 games two years from now, playoffs or no. 10-6 is certainly "playoff-caliber", considering that since 2000 teams who win at least 10 games go to the post-season 94% of the time.
Quote: I have much higher hopes for Shurmur than I did for Mangini. I think he's the guy to get this thing turned around as a HC.
I am really curious to what makes you think this?
I'll be honest ... I think part of it is hope. Maybe I'm just hoping too much.
I will say this. I do not for one second believe you have to be a successful coordinator to be a good head coach. You have to know how to manage people and get the most out of them. That's a completely different skill set. This is what I am hoping Shurmur has because he sure as hell can't design an offense.
I think some of the things that lead me to believe Shurmur is a good leader of people is his even keel approach. I admire that ... and look for that ... in leaders. People will always take on the personality of their leaders ... always. I think that's a good trait to have as a coach. I also think he treats his players like men. I think that's a better approach in the long run to the tyrant mentality...I think players just eventually tune those types out.
Again, it's probably just more hope than anything.
And I think my hope stems from this ... I am completely against another coaching hire at this point. Get him a QB and give Shurmur 4-5 years. We have to stop starting over. I know there is an argument ... and I am a believer in this argument ... that it makes no sense to continue moving forward with imcompetence just for continuity's sake. I just don't believe Shurmur is clueless at all. I think he gets it. I like that he seems upset after losses but keeps his cool. I think this guy wants to win and will.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
I can see what your saying but thank god Ohio State doesnt believe in that approch they did the bridge gap, al la mangini then got the hire right. If he doesnt work out they will can his but asap and find the next one.
Remember the last good coach we had won a few superbowls and no one liked him either but then again at least he made the playoffs here and beat his mentor.
So no Im not willing to wait 4-5 years to see if Shurmur may become something better then what I see now.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
One thing I will say is that you can look at the Browns right now and tell they are playing their hearts out. This team is leaving nothing on the field. You can say all you want about some of the finer aspects of the game, but this tells you something.
Quote: One thing I will say is that you can look at the Browns right now and tell they are playing their hearts out. This team is leaving nothing on the field. You can say all you want about some of the finer aspects of the game, but this tells you something.
We've seen that for the past few years too.
In the end, it has mattered little.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
It tells you the players believe, and that's a big part of the battle.
There isn't a hint of dissension in the ranks, outside of Cribbs complaining about not getting enough passes. I believe the players are accepting the responsibility of what's happening, even if the fans are after the coaches tail. They know they aren't playing well enough to win games.
What's really ironic to me is how those who offer excuses for the QB, such as a below-average line and a roster filled with no playmakers, kill the coach because he is somehow at fault for running a poor offense which doesn't generate points.
If you're going to excuse the results for the QB, you must excuse the results for the coach. That judgment cannot have dual-meanings.
If you acknowledge the team lacks talent, you cannot expect good things from the head coach. Some of what I'm seeing is a witchunt, with people looking for excuses to nail Shurmur to the cross. The more I think about it, the more I'm totally baffled by how many people believed he made a fatal flaw by not going for the win from our own TEN-YARD LINE with SIXTY SECONDS LEFT when the O-line had been getting blown up most of the 4th quarter.
Doesn't really matter though. Shurmur isn't going anywhere. He's made some rookie head coaching mistakes which should be expected, and if he doesn't show some improvement with improved talent next year it'll be easy to see where the mistake is.
I think any head coach who gets handed a rookie QB on a bad team with no play-makers and cranks out a relatively successful season with that combo should get some leeway when he comes to Cleveland and is handed this bunch.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Quote: His O in St.Louis was barely better than it is here.He was hired because of his WCO roots,not because of outstanding coaching.Which he may very well be,it's impossible to say right now. Steve Young said it takes 3 years to master the WCO,and he's a bright guy.That's a nice built in excuse for acoupla more years.
Can somebody give some examples? What teams instituted the WCO, and in what years?
Example? Steve Young.It's his opinion,no amount of statistical analysis will change that. DC,I was referring to the QB,not the coach,as I'm certain Shurmur has a complete understanding of the WCO.
Example? Steve Young.It's his opinion,no amount of statistical analysis will change that.
I understand that - what I mean, is that we should be able to look at a team that adopted the WCO (in say 2005), and look at their offense in 2005, 2006, and 2007, and see that sort of statistical improvement.
I was trying to think of a good example team to use, but I can't think of one.
That would take someone with more energy and time than I.The 1st problem you would run into would be that a team switching to the WCO probably just,at the least,replaced thier head coach.That usually means the previous guy was fired because the team stunk. Anyway,you could lookat Cincy way back when,or Philly under Reid,or Seattle and Holmgren.
Quote: That would take someone with more energy and time than I.The 1st problem you would run into would be that a team switching to the WCO probably just,at the least,replaced thier head coach.That usually means the previous guy was fired because the team stunk.
That would not be too different from our situation then...
True,but if you where to find this team,and the improvement was there from year 1 to year 3,I would have to ask if the improvement was due to knowledge of the scheme or better overall talent and coaching. It all boils down to that old saying "it ain't the x's and the o's,it's the jimmys and the joes."
Quote: I have much higher hopes for Shurmur than I did for Mangini. I think he's the guy to get this thing turned around as a HC.
I am really curious to what makes you think this?
I agree.
To quell Otto, this isn't Mangini love, so spare me that, but Shurmer is looking more "iffy" IMO.
Funny How Shurmur can't cut it is twisted into mangini love. I guess some need their straw dog arguments to attack. Watching Shurmy go into brain freeze as the game gets tight is pathetic and predictable. he cannot get an OC worth squat unless he gives up play calling. Unless he gives up play calling getting this shlub more talent won't make much difference.
Quote: Funny How Shurmur can't cut it is twisted into mangini love. I guess some need their straw dog arguments to attack. Watching Shurmy go into brain freeze as the game gets tight is pathetic and predictable. he cannot get an OC worth squat unless he gives up play calling. Unless he gives up play calling getting this shlub more talent won't make much difference.
I actually think that getting actual talent around a QB will help, if for no other reason than the player's discontent with the play-calling would probably end with Shurmur's firing.
Quote: Funny How Shurmur can't cut it is twisted into mangini love. I guess some need their straw dog arguments to attack. Watching Shurmy go into brain freeze as the game gets tight is pathetic and predictable. he cannot get an OC worth squat unless he gives up play calling. Unless he gives up play calling getting this shlub more talent won't make much difference.
I actually think that getting actual talent around a QB will help, if for no other reason than the player's discontent with the play-calling would probably end with Shurmur's firing.
I agree with getting more talent yet i have doubts about Shurmurs ability to utilize it. he does a poor job with what he has.
Quote: Funny How Shurmur can't cut it is twisted into mangini love. I guess some need their straw dog arguments to attack. Watching Shurmy go into brain freeze as the game gets tight is pathetic and predictable. he cannot get an OC worth squat unless he gives up play calling. Unless he gives up play calling getting this shlub more talent won't make much difference.
I actually think that getting actual talent around a QB will help, if for no other reason than the player's discontent with the play-calling would probably end with Shurmur's firing.
I agree with getting more talent yet i have doubts about Shurmurs ability to utilize it. he does a poor job with what he has.
I don't think that if you gave Shurmur a fork and a spoon, he'd be able to use them correctly to eat a meal. He'd eat a bowl of soup with the fork and use the spoon to eat broccoli.
Quote: I agree with getting more talent yet i have doubts about Shurmurs ability to utilize it. he does a poor job with what he has.
I'm trying to remember where I have heard this before... oh yea, that's what Browns fans said about Bruce Arians and Rob Chudzinski...
And Brian Daboll ..... who, despite what another poster has said, has done a nice job in Miami ...... with their offense now scoring 20.4 points per game (tied with Pittsburgh) and their backup QB completing 60% of his passes with 12 TD passes and 6 only INT.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: I agree with getting more talent yet i have doubts about Shurmurs ability to utilize it. he does a poor job with what he has.
I'm trying to remember where I have heard this before... oh yea, that's what Browns fans said about Bruce Arians and Rob Chudzinski...
And Brian Daboll ..... who, despite what another poster has said, has done a nice job in Miami ...... with their offense now scoring 20.4 points per game (tied with Pittsburgh) and their backup QB completing 60% of his passes with 12 TD passes and 6 only INT.
Quote: And Brian Daboll ..... who, despite what another poster has said, has done a nice job in Miami ...... with their offense now scoring 20.4 points per game (tied with Pittsburgh) and their backup QB completing 60% of his passes with 12 TD passes and 6 only INT.
21st in the league in both YPG and PPG.
29th in the league in 3rd down conversion.
Two more offense TD's than the Cleveland Browns.
.5 more first downs per game than the Cleveland Browns.
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