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I was thinking the other day. The Browns are our own worst enemy. We have drafted talent, but for one reason or another decide to trade it all away for almost nothing in return. Take a look at these names: Wimbley, Edwards, Vickers, Roth, Hillis, Faine, Winslow.....you get the idea.
What would our record be at this point if these guys were still playing ball for the Browns. I'm really disgusted by the unwillingness to deal with the players we have drafted and the inability to hold onto them. We suck because of turnover in the front office and the inability to keep our own talent.
Thoughts?
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we didn't draft Roth  The problem lies in us changing gears every two years. Stop changing every damned thing at the top and the change will stop at the bottom and we'll FINALLY get some consistency.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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umm, well every team does lose some guys and have them do things other places. we have far less than alot of teams because of how badly we have drafted over the years. from your list: Wimbley - just not a fit for the 3-4, which we were in when we let him go. he just was not contributing much after his rookie year. Edwards - he has done nothing of note for the Jets and 49ers since he left. perhaps the problem here was not the Browns (yeah, he has talent, and he has alot of issues too) Vickers - he's been the backup on the Texans most of the year. I wanted to keep him and wish we did too, but let's not think he's the solution to all of our offenses issues either. Roth - not sure why the FO didn't want to keep him. we at least could have used him for DE depth, which we are short on. Hillis - remember Cribbs. i don't believe anything that comes out from either side until the contract is done or the player is gone. could be alot of posturing at this point or one side over/under valued the situation. still could be resolved. Faine - the one player we let go and did well other places from our first 8 years. yaay (ok, o'hare too  ). i didn't want to let him go either though. it was sad and even sadder when LCB never played a down for us. Winslow - we got the same production from Watson that TB did from Winslow and did not have to pay the most $$$ in the NFL for a TE for a guy with reconstructed knees that doesn't block on running plays.
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Vickers alone would make us a Super Bowl contender.
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Say what you will about Vickers importance, our run game could use him today, and in the larger point of this thread - I saw the other night during the Packers game that an overwhelming number of their roster was homegrown and hadn't played for another NFL team.
That's a rarity, certainly, and for that sort of thing to work you need a foundation and a system in place, which we haven't had in decades.
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Vickers - he's been the backup on the Texans most of the year.
Why do people keep saying that?
I've watched every Texans game. Sometimes flipping back and forth during the Browns, sometimes outright. Vickers has been their primary run blocking fullback all year long. Casey tends to be more active in pass blocking.
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Edwards and Winslow were not going to resign here. We either trade them to get something for them, or just let them go for no return.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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Hillis - remember Cribbs.
and Dawson.
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When we announced the switch to the 4-3, Roth was adement he wanted to play OLB in a 3-4...
NE was interested, they heard his asking price, and was no longer interested...
The guy over values himself greatly.
Ironically he's now in Jacksonville... Playing 4-3 DE...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
Vickers - he's been the backup on the Texans most of the year.
Why do people keep saying that?
I've watched every Texans game. Sometimes flipping back and forth during the Browns, sometimes outright. Vickers has been their primary run blocking fullback all year long. Casey tends to be more active in pass blocking.
because it is true. Vickers was getting maybe 25% of the snaps until Casey got hurt (I believe week 8).
now, one can argue (quite well) that the Texans run game has been better since Vickers has played more
for reference: can't link to the fan forums here, so here's the best indicator from the allowed sources about Vickers playing more recently:
http://www.chron.com/sports/texans/article/Texans-notes-Jury-out-on-injured-Johnson-2257488.php
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And in the article I posted, Roth said that he lied about that .... and he was really ticked off because the front office said that they would work out an extension with him ..... then that they weren't going to do extensions with anyone ..... then they extended other players.
He said that once that happened, he wasn't going to re-sign here.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You could also argue that the Texans run game got better when Arian Foster returned, and that Vickers wasn't the key to the run game improving.
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Quote:
And in the article I posted, Roth said that he lied about that .... and he was really ticked off because the front office said that they would work out an extension with him ..... then that they weren't going to do extensions with anyone ..... then they extended other players.
He said that once that happened, he wasn't going to re-sign here.
I don't know that i believe what Roth says, after all he's on his 3rd team even though he's a pretty decent player plus didn't Miami release him because he lied about his injury? or something to that effect?
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You want to get REALLY sick ? Think about the players we PASSED on in the draft the last five years or so.. The only impact/star players (players other teams would take in a sec) this team has to show for DOZENS of picks over the years is Thomas and Haden. I'm STILL pissed about Matthews.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Randy would have a better team today if he had allowed the fans on this board to form a draft poll before each draft and picked the selections WE gave him. ( if we excluded Toad's picks) 
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we didn't draft Roth
The problem lies in us changing gears every two years. Stop changing every damned thing at the top and the change will stop at the bottom and we'll FINALLY get some consistency.
I am sorry to disagree but the changing was necessary it was the lack of due diligence HIRING that has caused problem.
1) Palmer was a joke only outlaughed by a front office who blew two entire drafts of extra picks and came up with a Kicker. that is it. they had no business being hired. Policy was a suit, Clark is selling cars. Palmer is a receivers coach i think in Tennessee.
2) Davis hand picked his taody GM who drafted with the acumen of a chimp throwning darts at the draft board.. Pete garcia runs some womens athletic department in the ACC and davis was just fired in NC.
3) Rac and opie, opie drafted players Rac did not want although they publicly crowed about drafting Browns type players and being on the same page. they were not in the same book they deserved 100% to be fired another year with them would have been useles.
4) then we had Lerner crow he would hire a top GM to conduct a "thorough search" for the next head coach. he knee jerk hires mangini,who picks his toady KoKinis, we have a yard sale of existing talent a conduct a Horrid draft and give away our top pick for a bag of castoffs and a center(, the most lopsided trade for a franchise QB in history).
Yet, by the end of year2 the browns played tough, beat some top teams and competed to the final whistle with a lot of very solid squads,,,yet we let that staff go for yet another ROOKIE never been a HC and we are back to really sucking again.
Year two of Holmgren and we have taken a BIG step back. I hated the slipshod manner mangini was hired. Hated his lopsided trades and rejoiced when he lost control of that aspect of his duties yet Mangini and Ryan had the Browns playing physical. we have more talent at Dline, DQ has excelled yet we are getting pushed around. we do not play tough.
This new Coach calls bizarre plays and makes little adjustments and seems to lack any faith in his QB. the sequence SuNday vs the rams with the Game on the line was plain BIZARRE. This guy is in over his head again. Is holmgren such an egomaniac that no one wanted to work for him..why Shurmer? why keep Shurmer?
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if we excluded Toad's picks
well, to be fair... Toad was right once. however, it's kind of apples and oranges as he wouldn't have had the same preparation and opportunity to learn before being set up to fail.
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I saw the other night during the Packers game that an overwhelming number of their roster was homegrown and hadn't played for another NFL team.
That's a rarity, certainly, and for that sort of thing to work you need a foundation and a system in place, which we haven't had in decades.
Not only that, they have like 25 or so rooks and 2nd year guys on their roster, that's half thei roster with youngsters...and lots of UDFAs among them....you can find talent anywhere if you know your stuff
As for the list of "talent"....lots of AVG NFL players on it and many would be upgrades for us now, but nothing really great.....some of the trades were bad and got less value than their talent but the bigger problem has been what we've done with those picks
#gmstrong
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1) Palmer was a joke ...
Palmer is a receivers coach i think in Tennessee.
just wanted to be fair to Palmer. he is currently OC of the 5-4 Titans who have had an okay offense despite CJ2K playing terribly for the most part.
to track his timeline w/ and after the Browns:
'99-'00 - HC of expansion Browns
'02-'05 - OC of expansion Texans
'06 - QB coach for Cowboys (Bledsoe's last year)
'07 - '09 - QB coach for Giants (Eli) where he won a superbowl
'10 - HC & GM of Hartford Colonials (UFL).
'11 - OC of Titans
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Not only that, they have like 25 or so rooks and 2nd year guys on their roster, that's half thei roster with youngsters...and lots of UDFAs among them....you can find talent anywhere if you know your stuff
I don't disagree with that, but you can also make a lot of young guys look really good if you bring them into an established system with enough cornerstone veterans playing at a high level and plop the youngser into that mix...
Or you can bring them here where we are never more than 2 years removed from a complete system and personnel overhaul and we have very very few (one or two) veterans that play at a consistently high level... you plop most rookies into that and they are going to struggle... and that's what we continue to do.
yebat' Putin
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Don't tell me...I'm not in the Shurmur or Holmgren threads waving pitchforks, those rebellious times are behind me Butch and Romeo got enough time and we were still going nowhere, Mangini was, well Mangini...he outsmarted and snaked his way out of town Except for Mangini, who I knew was incompetent and bigheaded (bad mix) before Lerner got him, I gave everyone more than 2 years
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Perhaps, but in fairness, that is kinda what he's said all along ...... the part about the front office offering to negotiate a long term deal, then deciding not to.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You want to get REALLY sick ? Think about the players we PASSED on in the draft the last five years or so.. The only impact/star players (players other teams would take in a sec) this team has to show for DOZENS of picks over the years is Thomas and Haden. I'm STILL pissed about Matthews.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Randy would have a better team today if he had allowed the fans on this board to form a draft poll before each draft and picked the selections WE gave him. ( if we excluded Toad's picks)
Some of those guys wouldn't look so good here.
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Davis hand picked his taody GM who drafted with the acumen of a chimp throwning darts at the draft board.
Will have to disagree here. I do not think they drafted all that randomly. IIRC they only drafted players Davis coached at Miami, or tried to recruit to Miami.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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For me ,, It started when the NFL stuck us with the Lerner's instead of the Shula Group ! All down hill from there.. 
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Butch and Romeo got enough time and we were still going nowhere, Mangini was, well Mangini...he outsmarted and snaked his way out of town
I sort of disagree with Davis, our defense was in the top half of the league in points allowed all 3 years he was here, our offense struggled from poor draft picks (not all by him but some before him) and I don't think he handled the Couch/Holcomb thing very well... I think if Davis would have had a competent person handling his drafts he could have been a good coach.
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Quote:
Quote:
Butch and Romeo got enough time and we were still going nowhere, Mangini was, well Mangini...he outsmarted and snaked his way out of town
I sort of disagree with Davis, our defense was in the top half of the league in points allowed all 3 years he was here, our offense struggled from poor draft picks (not all by him but some before him) and I don't think he handled the Couch/Holcomb thing very well... I think if Davis would have had a competent person handling his drafts he could have been a good coach.
I totally agree with your on the Butcher....he has been the best coach we have had since we came back. If only we could of paired him with Heckert...
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Quote:
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Vickers - he's been the backup on the Texans most of the year.
Why do people keep saying that?
I've watched every Texans game. Sometimes flipping back and forth during the Browns, sometimes outright. Vickers has been their primary run blocking fullback all year long. Casey tends to be more active in pass blocking.
He was the back-up until Casey got hurt then they have been bringing Casey back slowly.... if Casey was 100% then he would likely be the starter. They liked him for run blocking and LOVED him out of the back field.... Vickers is getting more playing time right now but that's because Casey has been hurt. They will probably still split time after the break but I'll be interested in seeing how much Casey gets to play.
Vickers is best known in Houston right now for dropping a sure TD against the Raiders when the Texans really could have used a TD to possibly win that game...
<><
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Randy would have a better team today if he had allowed the fans on this board to form a draft poll before each draft and picked the selections WE gave him. ( if we excluded Toad's picks)
Sadly, I think you're right. 
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we didn't draft Roth
The problem lies in us changing gears every two years. Stop changing every damned thing at the top and the change will stop at the bottom and we'll FINALLY get some consistency.
Yep my bad, I should have said Drafted or Acquired. But you get the picture. And yes, the changing of coaches is definitely the problem. For whatever reason, Lerner simply couldn't get the hires right. I'm still not sure if they have the right man for the job LOL. That is what worries me the most. Are we on the verge of blowing this thing back up in 2013?
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Quote:
I was thinking the other day. The Browns are our own worst enemy. We have drafted talent, but for one reason or another decide to trade it all away for almost nothing in return. Take a look at these names: Wimbley, Edwards, Vickers, Roth, Hillis, Faine, Winslow.....you get the idea.
Thoughts?
Don't forget Travis Prentice! He had, I think, 7 rushing touchdowns in 99, or 00.
Where does that rank for Browns rushing touchdowns in a season since the return in 99?
Not for nothing, I think the Browns haven't had a rushing touchdown since Hillis stopped playing earlier this year.
( ... ... Way to go! Don't sign the good players! Right on, right on  ... ... losing is acceptable! )
good grief 
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Quote:
Quote:
I was thinking the other day. The Browns are our own worst enemy. We have drafted talent, but for one reason or another decide to trade it all away for almost nothing in return. Take a look at these names: Wimbley, Edwards, Vickers, Roth, Hillis, Faine, Winslow.....you get the idea.
Thoughts?
Don't forget Travis Prentice! He had, I think, 7 rushing touchdowns in 99, or 00.
Where does that rank for Browns rushing touchdowns in a season since the return in 99?
Not for nothing, I think the Browns haven't had a rushing touchdown since Hillis stopped playing earlier this year.
( ... ... Way to go! Don't sign the good players! Right on, right on ... ... losing is acceptable! )
good grief
Travis Prentice (two year) career rushing stats:
187 carries, 525 yards, 2.8 yards per carry, 9 TD's, 3 fumbles
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Quote:
For whatever reason, Lerner simply couldn't get the hires right. I'm still not sure if they have the right man for the job LOL. That is what worries me the most. Are we on the verge of blowing this thing back up in 2013?
We'd better not be.
I hated that we got rid of Mangini the way we did. I thought that if the FO actually supported him instead of screwing him over that he could have won here and I liked the direction and toughness I saw from our team.
That said, he's gone and it's history and we have someone new here... and we've torn it all down -- again -- and are still in the early stages of building it back up -- again.
If we fail to give the building process time to see what we've got we are freaking morons that DESERVE to lose consistently.
Stick with it, suck it up and accept the pain and wait for the growth. It isn't fun going to the gym every morning, but it sure is nice to see the results of going through all that pain.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Don't forget Travis Prentice!
Travis Prentice? Oh my god, did you really go there? Well, he sure did go on to tear it up with the rest of his NFL career after he left here.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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The problem lies in us changing gears every two years.
Exactly, therein lies the problem. Not too sure how long this regime will last either. 
And the next head coach is ......
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The problem lies in us changing gears every two years.
Exactly, therein lies the problem. Not too sure how long this regime will last either.
Changing gears hell ..... we tear out the engine ....... drop the transmission ........ rip out the rear end .... dismantle the brakes ....... disassemble the steering, and blow up the suspension.
Then we wonder why the road is so bumpy and we can only get anywhere if it's downhill.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Prentice's 7 rushing tds in 2000, were the only rushing tds for the Browns that year.
That year ranks 3rd for the Browns since 99, for one player and rushing touchdowns. 7 tds'
Hillis had 11 rushing td's in 2010,
Jamal Lewis had 9 rushing td's in 2007
William Green had 6 in 02, Terry Kirby had 6 in 99, Jerome Harrisson had 5 in 09, Jamel White had 5 in 01, Rueben Droughns had 4 in 06, Jamal Lewis had 4 in 08.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Roth - not sure why the FO didn't want to keep him. we at least could have used him for DE depth, which we are short on.
If I remember correctly Roth didn't want to stay here. Wanted to stay at Olb in the 3-4 and not move to DE in a 4-3.
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Faine - the one player we let go and did well other places from our first 8 years. yaay (ok, o'hare too ). i didn't want to let him go either though. it was sad and even sadder when LCB never played a down for us.
We let Faine go for a couple reasons. 1st after signing LCB we would have had way too much money invested in the C position. LCB was an all-pro C and an all-pro OG but wanted to play C. Faine didn't play OG.
The other issue with Faine was that he didn't do well with a nose tackle right on his helmet. The AFC north is not the place for a center like that (thus the resaon we valued LCB so greatly). In NO, the majority of teams that they played were 4-3 teams vs which Faine was actually a pretty good center.
Of course no one (except doomsayer Browns fans) could have predicted a career ending injury to LCB on his 1st play from scrimmage in pre-season.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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The team doesn't draft well which means free agents won't want to come here unless it is their last stop.
They need a QB that they can ride it out with as well as a coach they will give 4 season to get some consistency and a system that works.
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The one (and I'm really reaching here) is that if for some reason we do decide to blow it up after this year or next (I don't think it'll happen), I see Holmgren keeping the WCO and 4-3 and just swapping out coach(es).
I could envision a situation where Holmgren tells Shurmer his best just wasn't good enough, and then goes and hires a different WCO coach.
Point is, the changeover wouldn't be as bad as we are accustomed to.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
The one (and I'm really reaching here) is that if for some reason we do decide to blow it up after this year or next (I don't think it'll happen), I see Holmgren keeping the WCO and 4-3 and just swapping out coach(es).
I could envision a situation where Holmgren tells Shurmer his best just wasn't good enough, and then goes and hires a different WCO coach.
Point is, the changeover wouldn't be as bad as we are accustomed to.
The guy didn't even get a full TC.
The ONLY way I think that even close to happens is if Philly lets Reid go.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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