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But here's the thing I absolutely despise about Cleveland fans. The moment of even the slightest adversity with a player comes about, we can't wait to stick it to him. Cribbs speaks out and he's a prima donna. Haden gets torched by Green and he's at best a #2. Thomas gives up a sack and he's terrible.
Yeah, but there's a difference here.
This isn't the first time we've heard this stuff from Cribbs. This is more of the same crap we heard during his contract dispute. He hides behind his "love for the fans" in the same breath as he complains about not getting the ball enough. 
That's the difference between the griping about Cribbs and guys like Haden and Thomas. Well, that isn't all, since Haden and Thomas play near or at pro-bowl levels while playing an every-down position. Cribbs? Just a mediocre receiver who made a name for himself on special teams, and now doesn't appear to be very special at that, either.
No, Cribbs is making selfish comments.....again.....as the team loses. If he says he is tired of losing WITHOUT blaming the coaches and whining about lack of touches, you might have a point, but because he is, your point doesn't hold much water.
Gotta ask yourself this: If he isn't saying anything wrong, why would the Browns PR person shut him up.....
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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j/c
In my job, I get a mic stuch into my face from time to tme. At other times, I'm cornered by a patron at a reception who wants to know what I think about this or that. Granted, it's nothing like the week-to-week scrutiny that these guys get, but it's happened often enough that I've adopted a mantra by which I live:
"The gig isn't over until you're in your car... and more than 6 blocks away."
It's just good policy. There have been gigs when I've severely dropped the ball. There have been gigs where my esteemed colleagues have performed like they've had all of 2 lessons on their instruments. There have been gigs when the 'Director du jour' has screwed us royally during the concert by dumping the "game plan" (read: all the instructions (s)he gave us during rehearsals).... and going off, half-cocked.
In other words.... I've been questioned by folks after "a disappointing loss."
To date, I don't recall a single time when I've dumped The Company Line, and said what I really felt. At times, it has felt disingenuous in the extreme, but that's part of the burden I willingly took on when I signed on with this team. The job ain't just putting your fingers in the right place at the right time.... it's also being an ambassador for the organization that feeds you.
Granted, these guys are passionate young men who want the best for their bunch... I get that- I really do. And I also get that I'm old enough to be their Daddy, so I may have developed some restraint over the past 25+ years that is still waiting to grow in some of them.
BUT.... there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking an extra 1.5 - 2.0 seconds to engage one's "common sense filter" before asking a question when one finds himelf on the dais in a room with 30+ microphones aimed at his mouth. Think before you speak.
We've seen breeches of this policy countless times before:
"I think I gotcha IQ here, buddy- ZERO"
-M. Ditka
"You wanna crown they azzes, then crown'em!!!
-D. Greene
Playoffs... Playoffs????
-J. Mora
The problem with 'going off' in the heat of the moment is that nowadays, it isn't just "in the moment." It's FOREVER.... and a public rant (or even Josh Cribbs' mini-rant) can be parsed out in millisecond detail by anyone- no, everyone who wasn't the interwiewee at that moment- just as is being done in this forum tonight.
Josh may be angling for a trade. I don't know that, and neither does anyone else.
He may be a selfish, "me-first" person... but I don't know that for sure.
He may just be a competitive person caught at a bad moment after a tough loss- who spoke out-of-school in a moment when his guard was down. I don't know that either, and neither does anyone else.
He could be any, all the above.... and a host of other things that haven't been covered in this thread. None of us knows... because we don't know the man.
What I DO know is that he didn't consult with me before saying the things that generated this thread. If he had, I'd have asked him the same question that I've had to ask myself, from time to time:
"Are you in your car- 6 blocks away from the stadium yet?"
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Oh come on. We love to judge without walking a mile in someone else's shoes. That's what we do on this board. Thats what we do as Browns fans.
Someone else said it in this thread. DA was spot on. This fan base does not deserve a winner. I hope Cribbs gets traded. I hope Thomas gets traded. I hope Haden gets traded. I hope they let Hillis and Dawson walk. This fan base deserves much worse than 4-12 every year. And those guys certainly deserve much better than this fan base.
People in this thread are blasting a guy who said he's embarrassed to look fans in the eye. That he's tired of losing. That he cares about the city. And who's play has always matched that passion on the field. Run Josh, run. Do whatever you can to get the hell out of Cleveland. I would 100% angle for a trade if I was you. Run and don't look back. The Cleveland fan base doesn't deserve players that care. They only want robots who are perfect and do and say the right things all the time. You're not allowed to be human Josh. You'll just get blasted for it.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Someone else said it in this thread. DA was spot on. This fan base does not deserve a winner. I hope Cribbs gets traded. I hope Thomas gets traded. I hope Haden gets traded. I hope they let Hillis and Dawson walk. This fan base deserves much worse than 4-12 every year. And those guys certainly deserve much better than this fan base.
If this happens will you still root for the Browns? As frusrated as I've been in my well over 30 years of watching the Browns, I've never wished for that much negativity or any for that matter. While there are fans who deserve a loser, I'm a part of the fan base I don't for one bit think that I deserve a loser. You want to generalize all Browns fans into a group of whiners, and that's just not the case. Wishing ill will on the Browns, i.e, trading their best players, doesn't seem very supportive to me.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Practice Squad
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Allow me to preface this by saying I am a regional sales rep for a craft beer company covering 6 states, thus I have the perspective of seeing many other fan bases reacting to wins and losses, regardless of sport. While Browns fans are not unique to being bitter after a loss, they ARE unique to carrying out attacks with such an amount of vitriol. It doesn't matter what accomplishments and accolades these players have racked up, they always are bums in "our" eyes. Frankly, it makes "us" seem stupid. Not saying that these boards are necessarily that, as I consider most on here to be intelligent and can usually back up thier arguement with some semblance of an IQ. But... just listen to sports talk radio, read comments on Yahoo! or strike up a conversation with a fellow fan. Chances are what you'll hear devolves to individual attacks on a given player. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly goodwill vanishes in this town. Hero one day, chump the next.
What I really love is how we hold some players to a higher standard and play favorites. Joe T never opens his mouth, so we all love him. Hillis did his thing last year and kept quiet, however this year he's the devil. Now imagine for a moment that Joe didn't get his contract extension earlier this year and made comments threatening a hold out if he were franchised. Would we have treated him with the amount of disdain that we have Hillis? I really think so, nevermind the fact he's been the best pick since the return and arguably the best LT in franchise history. If you've listened to the radio the last few days, Haden is a joke now, according to some. Never mind he was amazing last year and awesome so far this year. Revis had a bad game Sunday against Stevie Johnson, but New Yorkers aren't up in arms and singling him out.
The simple fact is, it is the vocal minority that becomes the representation for all of us. The players do hear some of this stuff, and it isn't a case of rabbit ears or being overly sensitive. Perhaps they actually CARE about what the fans think. That is not a crime, and I would wager each of us would at least give a little notice to what is being said, especially in todays age of social media and instant information if we were in thier shoes. It upsets me to hear players like Cribbs, Haden and Hillis singled out given how far out of thier way they have gone to assimilate into the community and showcase how good Cleveland the city can be. So at the first hint of adversity or disocrd, we turn our back on them?
I know it is a different sport, but why did Thome get welcomed back after he abandoned the Indians in 2003? He spurned this city, this fan base once for more money!! The very thing we are pinning Hillis up for. Thome's ACTIONS spoke a whole lot louder than venting in an interview, blowing an assignment, being injured or having a down game. Many of these same "fans" that are crucifying Cribbs and Hillis are the same that were jubilant when Thome came back. It's hypocritical at the least, and it is symptomatic of Cleveland fan. You don't know what you got 'til it's gone. And we never seem to quite grasp that...
"If you need two yards, I'll get you two yards. If you need four yards, I'll get you two yards!" Ron Wolfley, Special Teams Madman
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Someone else said it in this thread. DA was spot on. This fan base does not deserve a winner. I hope Cribbs gets traded. I hope Thomas gets traded. I hope Haden gets traded. I hope they let Hillis and Dawson walk. This fan base deserves much worse than 4-12 every year. And those guys certainly deserve much better than this fan base.
If this happens will you still root for the Browns? As frusrated as I've been in my well over 30 years of watching the Browns, I've never wished for that much negativity or any for that matter. While there are fans who deserve a loser, I'm a part of the fan base I don't for one bit think that I deserve a loser. You want to generalize all Browns fans into a group of whiners, and that's just not the case. Wishing ill will on the Browns, i.e, trading their best players, doesn't seem very supportive to me.
Thank You for quoting that, CBFAN19, I'd have missed it otherwise.
Rishuz - Your "take" goes into my personal Top3 List of absurd comments ever on this board. Congrats. I see you're in Vegas, perhaps find a new team somewhere out west... or if you're loyal to this area, go root for Buffalo.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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What's absurd about it? I don't think Rishuz is saying he wishes ill fortune on the Browns. He's saying that those players are pretty much good guys (from everything we know...never been in trouble with law, active in the community and fan-base), and they deserve better than what the Cleveland fan base gives them.
I know this is hard for some of you to hear (it hurts me too), but Cleveland is a joke of a fan-base. We turn on players faster than any other town.
Here is a list of players we have chased out of town with pitchforks in hand since I was born in '87. I'm sure I am missing a few:
Albert Bell
Jim Thome
Manny Ramirez
Derek Anderson
Braylon Edwards
Eric Wright
Drew Gooden
Lebron James
Soon to be gone: Peyton Hillis
That's a tough list to swallow. Now, not all of them left because of the fans, but the public perception of them all changed in the blink of an eye. Cleveland is full of fickle fans: one day, you're a hero. The next day, you're garbage. That's why the rest of the country laughs at us.
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Quote:
Here is a list of players we have chased out of town with pitchforks in hand since I was born in '87. I'm sure I am missing a few:
Albert Bell
Jim Thome
Manny Ramirez
Derek Anderson
Braylon Edwards
Eric Wright
Drew Gooden
Lebron James
I'm sorry, we ran LBJ out of town with pitchforks? SMH.
Rishuz' named players that he hopes are traded is absurd. That "we" don't even deserve to go 4-12 is absurd. That these players don't deserve this fanbase is absurd. That we don't deserve a winner is absurd. Narrow it down enough?
This city is THE most loving city and this fanbase is THE most loving fanbase when a guy just plays ball - i.e. Cribbs of the past, Hillis last year. But when you're not getting the job done and running your mouth about your contract or your tired of this or that then it turns on you, deservedly so. I loved Josh Cribbs and would again if he ran kicks back like he used to. I love Hillis when he's on the field and producing, which, for the most part, he hasn't this year.
When you can't catch a football yet act like you're Jerry Rice(Braylon); when you can't run back kicks past the 28 and run your mouth every year about something because "you're tired"(Cribbs); when you can't snap the ball though it's your only job(Pontbriand); when you're not running like a top back be it from injury of contract woe's(Hillis) - you can get the hell out of here for all I care. Their will be a "next up" after you.
I root for the team, not the player.
"If it weren't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college"
GO ROCKETS
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That attitude is what has gotten the Browns to this point. Thank you for illustrating what I've been saying.
That "next up" approach has worked so well for us these past couple years; whoops, I meant decades. And some of you wonder why we are always rebuilding, and why we haven't built anything since 1999.
Last edited by CribbsHero; 12/02/11 08:08 PM.
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Derek Anderson
Braylon Edwards
Eric Wright
Drew Gooden
Wow, can't believe you mentioned those chumps in the same breath as Jim Thome.
Thome was welcomed back with open arms. Do you think the same would happen for them?
Edit - that's not for you big D, clicked on you by mistake.
Last edited by Psydeffect; 12/02/11 08:48 PM.
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Was Thome not hated by Cleveland when he left? Please refresh my memory... Edit: Here's a story for you if you want to read it. Thome hears harsh reaction in Cleveland I still think Thome is one of the classiest players EVER in baseball. Thome takes the high road in the article...Cleveland fans not so much Also, the point of that list was to show just how quickly Cleveland's attitude toward certain players can change. That is why Thome is on the list.
Last edited by CribbsHero; 12/02/11 09:07 PM.
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Of course he was but it was for different reasons than those guys.
To me his situation isn't comparable to those. He wasn't run out of town with a pitchfork, he left for more money.
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NRTU.
Fascinating stuff going on here......There's a bunch of fans coming to the defense of a player who hides some selfishness behind the facade of a selfless act on the behalf of all the fans Cleveland.
How convenient.
Frankly speaking, I would have been far less displeased with this charade if Cribbs wouldn't hide behind the fans when complaining about the lack of footballs being thrown his way.
He hid behind the fans during his BS contract holdout, and he's hiding behind the fans now.
Yeah, yeah. I know. Good guy. Doesn't get in trouble. Does charity work. That's excellent, and has absolutely ZERO bearing on this situation. Don't let this take you off the deep end, such as where our bud Rish has gone. Of course I happen to think he did that for effect, and he's not nearly as sneaky as he thinks he is, hehe.
Now, if the thread has turned into something designed to get a rise out of people by going WAY over the top to make a point, at least Braylon Edwards was honest with his complaints and didn't hide behind anyone.
Of course I've never been nearly as enthralled with Cribbs as most fans have. It's been my opinion that we've been so starved for "stars" that we've elevated a special teams player to God-like status. It's interesting to see how that status can shield a player from the repercussions of selfish acts. If this were Edwards making these statements, he'd be lambasted...and rightfully so. Sure, he's been a great special teams player and one of the top-3 guys at his role during his career, but in the grand scheme of things, it's almost comical that we're having this discussion about a kick returner who wouldn't be any higher than the 4th receiver on any other team. THAT'S how starved we are for star players around here.
Yeah, I'm ranting here. I roll that way sometimes, hehe. The face of the Browns is not even a regular starting positional player, and that's indicative of just how inept we've been for the last 13 years.
Here's another sobering thought: Cribbs' current deal runs out after the 2012 season. If he's making noise now about not getting enough footballs thrown his way, I think we all know it won't be long before we start hearing from Cribbs and Rickert about a new contract, and since he CLEARLY thinks he's more valuable than he really is, this next holdout is going to get even uglier than the last one.
I can't wait to hear how he wants a BIG raise, so that he can continue to serve us fans...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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I agree.
The team already cut one guy to send a message. Maybe cutting Cribbs will be the second message.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Torrey Smith is not as good of a receiver as Greg Little, he's probably just in a better offense. If You want any indication the Browns Offense is one of its own worst enemies, how about they have lost 11 straight coin tosses and everybody decides to give the Browns the ball first. That's a third of the league not respecting your offense. When I see Cribbs get the ball behind the line of scrimmage, with 3 freaking opponents players lined up to tackle him and he makes 3 of them miss well it just makes me know he wants to win and who put him in that position anyway  ?
Last edited by Referee 3; 12/03/11 10:13 AM.
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The team already cut one guy to send a message. Maybe cutting Cribbs will be the second message.
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't cut Cribbs, but could you imagine the backlash on here if they did? Some posters would be asking for public apologies from the team while others would be hoping we also get rid of all the other players because we don't deserve them.
I like Cribbs (even though he sure looked lethargic last week), but as popular as Cribbs is, he wouldn't be as hard to replace as some might think. If this team would get him out of the receiver role and back to just returning kicks (a la Deven Hester) his production in the return game might just go back to being top of the line. As it is now, he's middle of the road on returns.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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Torrey Smith is much faster, and more experienced than Greg Little is. While one of Little's best draft attributes was his hands, he has dropped more passes than Smith has this season.
You are right about the lost coin tosses. It is absolutely a lack of respect to the Browns offense. (although, if I were a head coach I would always choose to kick off in the 1st half if I won the toss)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Here is a list of players we have chased out of town with pitchforks in hand since I was born in '87. I'm sure I am missing a few:
Albert Bell
Jim Thome
Manny Ramirez
Derek Anderson
Braylon Edwards
Eric Wright
Drew Gooden
Lebron James
Ran out of town with pitchforks? What kind of revisionist history is that? Those Indians players you mentioned left for the last dollar, nobody ran them out of town. Lebron James? This town practically begged him to stay, to the point of being humiliating. Derek Anderson, Braylon Edwards, and Eric Wright played their way out of town ... all were embraced as great additions to the community when they had success on the field. They were not criticized until their play warranted criticism.
Nobody is running Josh Cribbs out of town. They are just saying he should stop setting himself apart from the team, as if he is the only one who cares deeply. He's a Captain on the team and he needs to start representing his team-mates better than that.
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jc...
I find it humorous that people are crapping on Josh Cribbs' production in the kick return game when he is still putting up top 5 numbers in the league and kick off return yards are down about 33% league-wide compared with last year. This is likely due to the moving of the kickoff to the 35 yard line.
The average of the top 5 returners in terms of number of kickoff returns this year is getting about 1 less return per game (2.62 vs 3.56), and about 2 yards less per return (25.43 vs 23.54). That comes out to 455 fewer return yards per season. There have also been 8 return TDs this season through 12 weeks, or.67 TD returns per week. Last year there were 23 returns through 17 weeks, or 1.35 TD returns per week. That's a roughly 50% dropoff in TD returns.
The reduced numbers aren't just for Josh Cribbs. They're for just about everyone. And Devin Hester? 4 yards less per return and 150 total fewer yards than Cribbs, on 2 fewer attempts.
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This is a separate discussion from Cribbs' public opinions.
Adam, that's only half the story, and therefore half the truth. Looking at his punt return numbers, he ranks around 22nd in the league. It's entirely possible he's going to have to be replaced in that role at some point, as if his production there is not good, and it's taking energy away from his other roles, well, it may have to be done.
Regarding his kick-return numbers, you're absolutely right, his production isn't down. There's going to be a flawed perception that he's failing, if only because he hasn't taken one to the house lately.
However, when looking at the big picture, if the league has taken the kickoff further out of the realm of the game, and since Cribbs has made the biggest part of his money and name in that role, the argument could be made that he's less of a contributor to the overall team concept than he's ever been in the past. Of course that's going to be a topic for conversation if the league keeps the kickoffs at the 35, and because Cribbs' contract expires next season.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Now, not all of them left because of the fans, but the public perception of them all changed in the blink of an eye. Cleveland is full of fickle fans: one day, you're a hero. The next day, you're garbage.
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Ran out of town with pitchforks? What kind of revisionist history is that? Those Indians players you mentioned left for the last dollar, nobody ran them out of town. Lebron James? This town practically begged him to stay, to the point of being humiliating. Derek Anderson, Braylon Edwards, and Eric Wright played their way out of town ... all were embraced as great additions to the community when they had success on the fØeld. They were not criticized until their play warranted criticism.
Please re-read the last part of that post. "Not all of them left because of the fans." Maybe I went a little overboard with the "ran out of town with pitchforks" comment, but the point remains: a lot of Cleveland fans are fickle and turn on players very quickly.
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Yeah, you did go a little overboard.  You wouldn't be the first, though, hehe.
Fandom itself is fickle, and not isolated to Browns fans. We're no better or no worse than most. It just looks that way because we've lost far more than we've won over the last....ummmm....20 years. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
This is a separate discussion from Cribbs' public opinions.
Adam, that's only half the story, and therefore half the truth. Looking at his punt return numbers, he ranks around 22nd in the league. It's entirely possible he's going to have to be replaced in that role at some point, as if his production there is not good, and it's taking energy away from his other roles, well, it may have to be done.
Regarding his kick-return numbers, you're absolutely right, his production isn't down. There's going to be a flawed perception that he's failing, if only because he hasn't taken one to the house lately.
However, when looking at the big picture, if the league has taken the kickoff further out of the realm of the game, and since Cribbs has made the biggest part of his money and name in that role, the argument could be made that he's less of a contributor to the overall team concept than he's ever been in the past. Of course that's going to be a topic for conversation if the league keeps the kickoffs at the 35, and because Cribbs' contract expires next season.
I didn't include his punt return numbers because he's never been a top-flight punt returner. His punt returning this year is right about in line with where it's been for his career: average at best. In fact, I don't think we should use him in that role at all. Never have. I'd rather have a guy like Joe Haden or Buster Skrine return punts.
Punt returning is more about being quick and shifty, making guys miss you, as opposed to being able to see an opening and let your blockers set up and then just get as far as you can. Two entirely different situations, and I don't like it when they get lumped together, as if excelling at one means you'll excel at the other. It's simply not the case, and why people juxtapose the two so often is baffling to me.
It's funny, yesterday on the radio one of the guys was saying that the Browns should cut Cribbs in the offseason and try to get DeSean Jackson and make him our new kickoff returner. Now, aside from the fact that DeSean Jackson is a total headcase, despite being a hell of a punt returner his career kickoff numbers are 2 returns for 12 yards total.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but here is what I thought about each of these:
Albert Bell: Belle left because of perceived slights by the Indians and Indian fans. He went on to Chicago and was merciless beating on the city and the fans. Great player, midget minded human being..
Jim Thome: Thome left for the money. He was offered a very strong number to remain with the Indians, but chose to go to Phillly. He chased a buck, didn't make me happy, but I understood it. As a side note, when he came back here this year, he was welcomed with open arms by the fans..
Manny Ramirez: Manny was a nutbag,, but he was our nutbag and this town loved him. He was offered an almost identical contract to remain with the indians and decided to go to Boston. Again, chasing the money.. Didn't like it, but understood it.
Derek Anderson: You are kidding right
Braylon Edwards: Again, you are kidding right
Eric Wright: He was offered a contract to stay, he decided to move on. He wasn't the end all be all, but I would have rather he stayed.. He wanted a change of location and scenary.. It's really hard to blame him.
Drew Gooden: Again, you are kidding me right
Lebron James: On this one, you are out of your freaking mind.., This area loved him, we coddled him, we bestowed "KING" status on him. And what does he do, he goes on National TV, in a 1 hour special and sticks a knife in the back of every fan that ever followed him from the time he was a little kid.
I don't fault LBJ for leaving,, if that's what he wanted to do, fine. I fault him for the way he did it. It was a slap in the face of everyone in this part of the county that supported him.. I think he's a jerk but only for the way he left, not that he left.
So you can characterize it as the fans chasing people out of town, but you'd be wrong in almost every case.
As far as Cribbs goes, these fans love the guy and for good reason.. He's fun to watch.. But you don't go out there and throw your team under a bus like he did. And his constant i i i i i thing is starting to bug me.
Do I want him to remain a Brown? Yes I do. I want him to be here when we turn the corner..
But I do believe that his actions are an indication that he wants out. I think you can count on him pushing for a trade in the off season. He's tired of losing and it's hard to blame him, but this kinda crap from him should be in the locker room and directed at his teammates and coaches and owner etc. Privately. It's not for publication.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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here' a little bit of Cribbs talking today... “When we come in at halftime, we always break it down on finish because we’re usually in the lead going into half,” Cribbs said. “I guess we might get complacent. I love being down in the beginning of the fourth quarter because we play hard when we’re down. Not that we don’t play hard all game, but there’s just something about us. When we’re down, we make it a game and I hate being up. It’s hard to keep a lead.” link Come back wins are exciting...But I would love to watch this team start off with a lead and keep it for a win. .Imo...This kind of thinking is why we are not a winning team...
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“When we’re down, we make it a game and I hate being up. It’s hard to keep a lead.”
Can someone please take the mic away from this moron????
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Just wanted to throw some FACTS in here, since you are of the OPINION that Cribbs shouldn't be playing WR and shouldn't be getting more touches. Yards/Target for our top 4 receiving "threats": 1. Josh Cribbs 7.02 2. Benjamin Watson 5.96 3. Mohamed Massaquio 5.52 4. Greg Little 5.46 Targets/Game: 1. Greg Little 7.83 (Removing games at beginning of season where he didn't start raises this even more) 2. Benjamin Watson 6.09 3. Mohamed Massaquio 4.80 4. Josh Cribbs 4.25 Does something look wrong with those to you (besides that they are all horrible compared to the rest of the league)? The guys getting the least yards per target are the ones getting the most targets. Not to mention, Cribbs has 6 20+ yard receptions, compared to 9 for the other 3 guys in less than 1/4 of the targets. For an offense that has trouble moving the ball consistently, you would think we would try to get the ball into the hands of our playmakers as much as possible to get some big plays. As a side note, Norwood is averaging 9.41 yards per target. Wonder why McCoy has been trying to get him the ball more? Whether Toad wants to admit it or not, Cribbs has made strides as a WR this year. I don't think he'll ever be a consistant #1 WR, but I think he can be a pretty good #2 or #3 option that gives the defense something to worry about. He's our biggest threat in space (184yac vs. Little's 153yac), and he's also our best WR at stretching the field vertically. Those are two things that our offense lacks desperately. And yes, I put threats in quotations for a reason 
Last edited by CribbsHero; 12/05/11 10:15 AM.
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Just wanted to throw some FACTS in here, since you are of the OPINION that Cribbs shouldn't be playing WR and shouldn't be getting more touches.
I haven't read a word beyond this yet, but you're wrong. I never said he shouldn't play receiver. I've said for YEARS that he is an inferior receiver in a traditional role, and that when he's used the right way, he has great value. Even the players and coaches have flat-out said that in public.
Now that I've cleared that misconception up, lemme see what else you've said...
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Yards/Target for our top 4 receiving "threats":
1. Josh Cribbs 7.02
2. Benjamin Watson 5.96
3. Mohamed Massaquio 5.52
4. Greg Little 5.46
Targets/Game:
1. Greg Little 7.83 (Removing games at beginning of season where he didn't start raises this even more)
2. Benjamin Watson 6.09
3. Mohamed Massaquio 4.80
4. Josh Cribbs 4.25
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Does something look wrong with those to you (besides that they are all horrible compared to the rest of the league)? The guys getting the least yards per target are the ones getting the most targets.
Yes, things look wrong to me, but not as it pertains to the point you're trying to make.
You're attempting to say that because Cribbs has a larger yards per target he should be getting more footballs.
This isn't 1982, and we aren't the Oakland Raiders. We run a WCO offense and we have a ball-control QB. The recipe for winning isn't to take a guy who is probably one of the worst route-runners in the league and have him running deep down the field, throwing him footballs. If you think McCoy's comp percentage is poor now, it would be in the 40% range if we followed a plan of giving the guy with the deepest yards per target more footballs.
HOWEVER...I DO agree that there is something very wrong with those stats in one sense, but not surprising at all in another.
Contradictory? Hardly.
When you have a big-bodied guy who runs poor routes and isn't that fast, you tend to take that guy and send him deep for the jump balls. That's why Cribbs' yards per target are high.
And I think that's the WRONG way to use him, which has been one of my criticisms of how he's been used.
The best way to use him isn't as a deep threat guy or running complex routes. The best way to use him is on screens, quick-hitters, and gadget plays. Those were the things that made him somewhat of a playmaker in previous years, and outside of a few games this season, we haven't been doing that. We've been trying to treat him as a traditional receiver, and he and the offense have produced inferior results.
So while I agree something is VERY wrong with those stats, I DISAGREE with your point. We don't need to target Cribbs more on traditional routes. We need to target him more on short routes and gadget plays. He needs less touches as a traditional receiver, but more touches as a play-maker.
HUGE difference.
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As a side note, Norwood is averaging 9.41 yards per target. Wonder why McCoy has been trying to get him the ball more?
Because receivers like Cribbs haven't been getting it done?
I'd like to know where you're getting your information, as while I disagree with your premise, it'd be good for people to know where they can mine for the numbers.
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Whether Toad wants to admit it or not, Cribbs has made strides as a WR this year.
Highly debatable. He has more TARGETS, and thus he should have more catches. He's always been a guy who can do some things with the ball in his hands, but he's also always been a guy who has been a pathetic route runner and doesn't get open nearly as much as he should. Giving him more catches isn't a recipe for making the offense better. Giving him more touches within the role that he does well is.
It's always been my opinion that the team should use Cribbs in two ways: As a jump-ball guy in the end-zone, and as a gadget guy and quick-hitter. We've tried using him as a more traditional receiver, and it's failed year after year after year. His production as a special teams player has diminished, largely in part because of the energies he's used in playing a position he's ill-suited to.
To be very blunt, he's lost that which made him a fan-favorite. He's lost that which made him such a success within his role. And for what? He's on pace for a 39-catch season. 
This is the THIRD regime which has wrongly tried to make Cribbs into a receiver, and it's failed all three times. When a guy like McCoy, who is going to say all the right things, comes right out and says Cribbs has only certain things he does well, people need to listen.
More touches for Cribbs can help this offense, but only the RIGHT touches. Continually marching him out there and asking him to be a traditional receiver is hurting not only the offense, but our special teams as well.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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More touches for Cribbs can help this offense, but only the RIGHT touches. Continually marching him out there and asking him to be a traditional receiver is hurting not only the offense, but our special teams as well.
I agree. Just use him like the Reggie/Sproles role in NO with some more deep passes mixed in (as he's pretty good at battling the DBs for those too).
#gmstrong
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I.m not sure what type of offense we run ; But what ever it is , we suck at it ! 
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ESPN Brown Stats
When you have a big-bodied guy who runs poor routes and isn't that fast, you tend to take that guy and send him deep for the jump balls. That's why Cribbs' yards per target are high.
Wrong. By removing YAC from receiving totals and determining YPC, you find that Little's average pass is caught 7.2 yards down the field, while Cribbs is 6 yards down the field (Massa's at 9.4, Watson at 6.1 if you were wondering). So, no, Cribbs #'s aren't inflated by catching balls deeper down the field.
The point remains, we have used Cribbs as a conventional WR, not as a gadget guy this year, and he has still outperformed Massaquoi in this offense. He should be getting more targets than what he is currently getting if we want to be better offensively with the talent we currently have. It's up to the coaches to find creative ways to get him the ball.
Cribbs is the best deep-threat we have on this team currently. I'm talking deep, 25-40 yards down the field, not the intermediate 15-25 yard range. Little isn't fast enough. I've never been impressed with Massaquoi's ball skills; he never really fights for the deep ball.
I agree that we should also be using Cribbs on more quick-hitters and screens near the sideline but along with deep routes to stretch the defense horizontally and vertically. Right now, teams just pack the middle of the field agianst us. However, the fact is we get more yards on average throwing to Cribbs than we do to Little, Watson, or Massa even in traditional routes.
We try to dink and dunk our way down the field. Well, guess what: against good defenses that doesn't work. Sooner or later, your offense will make a mistake (sack, penalty, dropped ball), and then your offense is screwed.
You, yourself say it best in this thread about Cribbs from a year ago: Cribbs no longer convering punts and kicks
Catching dinks and dunks doesn't do anything for this team offensively.
Granted, that was about a previous offensive scheme, so I'll give you a pass.
"He's on pace for a 39-catch season." Funny you should say that. From your previous post a year ago that I linked:
Now if Cribbs can contribute 40 catches where he's actually catching passes more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, then it'll have been worth it.
39 catches, 6 yards down the field on average. Is it worth it? Wish you could take that back now?
"Never said he shouldn't play receiver":
IMHO he's just taking passes and reps away from real receivers.
Sounds like your backpedaling just a tad. It just seems like you've never wanted Cribbs to succeed as WR because it didn't back up your opinion of him. This leads you to make baseless accusations against his character.
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Josh Cribbs has been learning to play WR for how many years now?
Greg Little is in his 2nd year of being a WR, He's also a Rookie in the NFL, who didn't play any football last year...
Comparing them is pointless.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Josh Cribbs has been learning to play WR for how many years now?
Greg Little is in his 2nd year of being a WR, He's also a Rookie in the NFL, who didn't play any football last year...
Comparing them is pointless.
Besides the first line, where I'm using a stat to show that Cribbs yards per target isn't inflated by catching deeper passes, where do I directly compare Cribbs to Little? That wasn't the point of the post at all. Did you read past the first line?
Are you referring to the previous post? That wasn't really the point of that post either, but I only have 2 questions then:
1.Why are we running the majority of our passing offense through him, instead of slowly working him in?
2. Is it fair to Colt McCoy to run the majority of our passing offense though him if we are trying to evaluate him as a QB?
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Wrong. By removing YAC from receiving totals and determining YPC, you find that Little's average pass is caught 7.2 yards down the field, while Cribbs is 6 yards down the field (Massa's at 9.4, Watson at 6.1 if you were wondering). So, no, Cribbs #'s aren't inflated by catching balls deeper down the field.
While you may or may not be right in the interpretation of all this, that's just too much math and concentration right now for me to play with. I will revisit that later when I've got more time.
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The point remains, we have used Cribbs as a conventional WR, not as a gadget guy this year, and he has still outperformed Massaquoi in this offense.
You mean the Massquoi who has missed 4 games with concussions and been wobbled in two others?
That's a helluva leap to make.
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Cribbs is the best deep-threat we have on this team currently. I'm talking deep, 25-40 yards down the field, not the intermediate 15-25 yard range. Little isn't fast enough.
Cribbs runs 4.61 in the 40
Greg Little runs 4.53 in 40
You, sir, are incorrect.
Very few players are faster as they near 30 than they are at 22, so there's no possible way that Cribbs is faster than Little. So by your definition of speed, there's no way you can say that Cribbs is a better deep threat than Little.
In fact, taking the logical steps going forward, Little is taller, stronger, AND faster than Cribbs, so if we're going to use YOUR definition of what a deep threat is by using measureables, then Little is the best deep threat we have.
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Granted, that was about a previous offensive scheme, so I'll give you a pass.
"He's on pace for a 39-catch season." Funny you should say that. From your previous post a year ago that I linked:
Now if Cribbs can contribute 40 catches where he's actually catching passes more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, then it'll have been worth it.
39 catches, 6 yards down the field on average. Is it worth it? Wish you could take that back now?
Take it back? How about you stop taking quotes out of context.
Here's EVERYTHING I said, not just the PART of the quote you picked out:
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Furthermore, my point regarding Hester was also that those around the league noticed a dropoff in his special-teams play once he was a full-time receiver.
Now if Cribbs can contribute 40 catches where he's actually catching passes more than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, then it'll have been worth it. Using up his energy doing something he isn't good at takes away from the team as a whole.
Since his efforts as a receiver have diminished his ability to return punts, kickoffs, and as a gunner on special teams, it's my opinion that his time spent as a receiver have not been "worth it."
We've taken an all-pro player on special teams and traded that output for 39-catches a season when it is at best arguable he's even a legitimate receiver....when even his own QB and coaches have talked greatly about using him in ways that's best suited for him, which is a nice way of saying he's not a complete receiver.
No, I'm not at ALL interested in taking it back. In fact, it's my opinion that what we're seeing now has proven that point.
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IMHO he's just taking passes and reps away from real receivers.
Sounds like your backpedaling just a tad. It just seems like you've never wanted Cribbs to succeed as WR because it didn't back up your opinion of him. This leads you to make baseless accusations against his character.
Again, hardly. If anything, he's yet again proving my point.
Do you think it's a coincidence that his targets are going down as we try and develop Little? That his time on the field has gone down as Mass has come back from injury? Do you believe it's a coincidence that even his QB and his coaches have stated he's best suited to certain roles within the offense, which is a clear indication he's not viewed as a complete receiver? Those are damning comments from people on his own team. Furthermore, a "real receiver" isn't a guy that is limited to gadget plays and limited roles. While I've carried the banner for Cribbs in that regard for several years now, that role isn't one of a "real receiver." The league is filled with the Brad Smith's and Josh Cribbs' of the world. They have solid roles, but they are NOT considered real receivers. Taking that even a step further, without real receivers, this offense isn't going anywhere, and so while Cribbs can help us within his role, he needs to lose reps to guys like Little and Mass who know how to run routes and get open. That isn't Cribbs' game, and key people in the organization...you know...like the QB and head coach....aren't afraid to admit it.
As for character assassination, he's the one making very public comments about not getting enough footballs. The last receiver here to do that was Braylon Edwards. Nobody on this team outside of Cribbs are publicly complaining about the number of passes thrown their way, and he's done it not once, but TWICE this season. Baseless? Undeniably substantiated.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You mean the Massquoi who has missed 4 games with concussions and been wobbled in two others?
Don't make stuff up. Mass has been inactive for 2 games, not 4, and got injured early in 2 games. If you took away those 2 games, it would actually make his targets per game go up, making his stats look worse. Missing time doesn't affect yards per target anyway.
Cribbs' 40 time coming out might well have been slower that Little's. It's really hard to tell when everyone runs on different surfaces with different timing systems though. I'm pretty sure Little had a lot more time to work on his technique (which is a lot of what any sprint is) and get ready for combine drills than Cribbs did since he didn't play his last year of college. Also, it's a lot harder for a big, tall guy to maintain the same acceleration coming out of a 2-point stance that you use in games when compared to the 3-point stance you use in the 40. I'll cede this point to you though.
Since his efforts as a receiver have diminished his ability to return punts, kickoffs, and as a gunner on special teams, it's my opinion that his time spent as a receiver have not been "worth it."
Back-pedaling again. You would make a good DB! This doesn't make any sense at all. Adam P has already shown in this thread that his kick return #'s aren't down, which you agreed with (I can quote you again if you need me too). His average punt return #'s aren't down (which I agree, we could probably find a new PR), and he's covering punts. Not to mention there are multiple other reasons why Cribbs ST production could be down along with the rest of our ST, like new KR rules, replacing Seely with a bum, and the loss of key ST personnel (which I'm fine with, we needed to get younger).
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I think Cribbs could be a fine WR...in fact..Cribbs has more upside right now then Greg Little...atleast Cribbs catches the football most of the time when it hits him in the hands unlike Little.
Little will be a BUST mark my word..a BUST..he is a poor man Braylon Edwards with worse hands and no where near the speed and seperation Edwards had...the guy is a bum....
If you or anyone else actually watched the TD catches Cribbs has made this year...they were downright remarkable great tough catches...especially the one where he had to leap and haul the ball in that was slightly overthrown...he plucked it out of the air behind his head....bum receivers don't make those kinda plays...
johs Cribbs has shown me more as WR in his limited passes his way then Little has...Cribbs can actually make a play if he gets the ball and has any space at all between him and the defender...
Cribbs could be a solid #2 on this team...not the best #2 in the league by anymeans, but a quality one...
i'll tell you 1 thing though...Gregg Little is not a #1 receiver...and never will be...just like Cribbs won't be a #1 either...but Cribbs is a better option at #2 then Little is due to the fact that Cribbs can actually catch the ball most of the time, and is not only a playmaker in space, but Cribbs is a physical guy...
Little has stone hands, he lacks speed(Cribbs actually has great speed and is rarely if ever caught from behind), and he is a chest catcher....Greg Little is the most overhyped, overrated WR on the Browns since Kevin Johnson and Travis Wilson....Little has looked about as good as Quincey Morgan...which isn't saying much....if we actually threw Cribbs the ball more often...it would help...Cribbs leads the team in Td catches and he is hardly thrown to...that says something there...
im not saying Cribbs is a world beater at WR, but he is way better then Little ever will be....either you have speed, elusiveness, and gamebreak ability or you don't...its not something you can learn in a few years...Cribbs had gamebreaking ability from day one...he had elusiveness, speed, and the ability to bust a game open day one he stepped on the field...Little doesn't have those abilities, and never will...either you have that kinda speed and such or you don't and no training is going to give it to you...Little is only being thrown to because for some reason Shurmur is in love with a slow, stone handed receiver...it is what it is...
Little has simliair Size to TO when TO came into the league...difference was TO could actually catch the ball, run a proper route, and TO had much more quickness then Little has....again either you got it or you don't, and Little doesn't have it...if Holmgren is smart, he is looking for another WR next year...
Cribbs is a borderline #2/ fine #3...Little isn't even that....
Cribbs has 4 TD, 12.3 average per catch and 358 yards in only 29 receptions....
Little has 50 catches, 513 yards and only 1 stinking TD...Cribbs is doing more for this team then Little is with much less opportunities...
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I am torn on Little.
At first I thought he would be a bust.
Then he showed a little bit.
Then he started dropping passes.
He hasn't show any ability down the field. He seems to lack speed. I think that he probably runs OK routes, but since most of his routes are short, who knows?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Two games in a row now Little has displayed gator-arms on 3rd down receptions over the middle. Both were catchable balls and would have been 1st downs. Our WR corps is a mess.
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I think Cribbs could be a fine WR...in fact..Cribbs has more upside right now then Greg Little...
Cribbs is a 28 year old "WR" who's been learning the position for 3 years or so. Little is a 22 year old rookie WR that didn't play football last year. Not saying Little is going to ever turn into a Rice/TO hybrid, but I'm confident that Little has the higher potential upside.
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