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Some of our fans watch Aaron Rogers and Drew Brees, wondering if the Browns will ever have a QB that can do what they do on a football field. I know I do...
I did a little research, something I do quite often when I'm trying to arrive at an "informed opinion", based on facts, not emotions.
One of the criticisms of McCoy is that he is too small and his arm is too weak..so what are the facts?
McCoy is 6-1 (185m)...Drew Brees is listed at 6-1 (183m)...Aaron Rogers is 6-2 (188m)...obviously, McCoy "is not" too short.
McCoy is listed at 216lbs...Brees is listed at 209...Rogers is listed at 225... McCoy "is not" too small.
...I would like to see him work on the weights in the offseason, improving his strength and adding some muscle. I read that McCoy rested his arm after last season, admitting that he was not fully recovered from the injury he suffered in the BCS Championship game...therefore, I doubt McCoy did much work on building himself up in the offseason.
When I look at McCoy (vs Brees and Rogers)...I see a "young man" who has not fully matured yet..mentally and physically. I see a young man who has not reached his full potential..someone who has room to grow and improve.
...Brees is 32 and in his 11 season
...Rogers is in 28 and in his 7 season
...McCoy turned 25 in Sept and is in his 2nd season
Aaron Rogers...everyone knows his story, being allowed to sit behind Favre for 3 seasons, learning the offense while working on his game without the pressure of starting. Today, in his 7th season, Rogers is at the top of his game, playing in the same offensive system for 6 yrs, surrounded by talented WRs an outstanding offensive line and a good running game...Rogers has all the support a QB could want.
Drew Brees..most know his history too..now in his 11th season, has played for two different teams, Chargers and Saints..the Chargers obviously did not believe Brees could be the man and they drafted Phillip Rivers in 2004, who was Brees' backup in 2004 and 2005.
I went back a few years and found a pre draft scouting report on Brees...among his negatives..
...he played in the spread
...he took most snaps in the shotgun
...he threw side arm on long throws, lacked accuracy and touch on long throws
...the report said Brees seems more comfortable in short and intermediate passing.
I checked out Drew Brees' Pro bio..
...Brees was drafted in 2001 and started one game his rookie year.
...2nd season he started 16 games
...3rd season he lost his starting job to Doug Flutie
...4th season, Brees started 15 games and the Chargers won 12 games and made the playoffs.
...5th season, Brees starts all 16 games, Chargers miss playoffs with 9-7 record,
...Brees is hurt in the final game..Chargers let Brees walk in favor of Phillip Rivers.
The Chargers gave up on Drew Brees...some considered Brees too short and coming out of college, some questioned his ability to throw the long ball. But, Drew Brees was willing to work hard to improve himself and he developed into a Super Bowl winning QB at the age of 30, in his 9th season in the NFL...after the Chargers gave up on him.
COLT McCOY...as a rookie, he was considered an after thought by Mangini and his offensive coordinator, Brian Daboll. We all know the story of how McCoy did not even get the game plan when the #1 and #2 QBs did and we read the story of how Daboll treated McCoy like crap until the Browns were forced to start McCoy because of injury to Delhomme and Wallace.
McCoy did not play poorly last season, all things considered, starting 8 games.
McCoy's 2nd season, new HC/OC, with a new playbook to learn, but the players are "locked out" in March with no contact allowed between coaches and players. McCoy takes the lead and holds 3 off season camps in an effort to do something to help the team.
As a fan, it has been a frustrating year, watching the Browns offense struggle to learn Shurmur's offensive system. Even yesterday, 12 games into the season, many times it appeared that our WRs were not on the same page as the QB. It is so easy to point fingers at the QB and proclaim, he is the problem and the Browns need to draft a QB.
Just one question for my fellow Browns fans...taking time to read a little history about Rogers and Brees...comparing their history in the NFL to McCoy's...is it too soon to give up on Colt McCoy?
IS IT TOO SOON to kick Colt McCoy to the curb?
GM strong...
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Quote:
IS IT TOO SOON to kick Colt McCoy to the curb?
No.
Matt Barkley 2012 
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well, let's start with Brees since that is where these things tend to start.
Brees showed as little as McCoy his first 2 seasons. So, SD went out and drafted a QB in the top4 of the draft (Rivers). They decided to let Brees start and bring Rivers in later and Brees had a great year (before hurting his shoulder).
Just showing that:
1. Yes, it might be too early to give up on McCoy (hard to say as there are 100x examples of QBs that never made that Brees-leap)
2. Yes, we still should heavily consider drafting a QB early and other teams in similar situations would do the same.
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I know its not an overnight thing that happens but I just wish we could see improvement rather than regression in his reading of denfenses.
We didnt exactly sell the farm to get him so if we move on I wont get bent about it.
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"Kick to the curb"? No, not really. But I think the team needs to always be looking for that special QB. It would be foolish not to. If we find someone in the off season then that's great. If we don't, well, the team has lots of other problems as well. Unlike some fans I don't see a real need to mortgage the future of a really bad team even more deeply just to have this or that QB. You take one if he's the BPA.
McCoy probably isn't going to get us to the promised land, that much is evident. But he's far from the only problem we have on the offensive side of the ball.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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Quote:
McCoy probably isn't going to get us to the promised land, that much is evident. But he's far from the only problem we have on the offensive side of the ball.
jeep...so you have made up your mind, kick him to the curb!
GM strong...
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In general I would say, given the circumstances, that yes... it may be too early to give up on McCoy. I, for one hope he is the answer at QB. But, I do not have the benefit of game film and observing practice so I don't see the true picture of McCoy and that is where I hope the F.O./ coaching staff comes in. I sure do not want to go into next year still not knowing wether McCoy is "it". I am willing to depend on their expertise to make the determination and if they are not reasonably sure by the end of this year then we have to move on. The Brees example definately instills hope for McCoy but I am sure there are alot of other examples where a team held on to the wrong guy for far too long. We have to know which direction by the end of this year.
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No, it's already too late...he should have never gotten this season as the clear cut #1 to begin with....4, 3, 2, 1....and I have endured 24 starts of "The Dumpster"....I feel water-boarded Colt McCoy was who I thought he was....and you all let him off the hook  What's he good at? No one has the onions to answer that one, because deep down they know they can't say with a straight face that Colt can read a NFL Ds, make all NFL throws, has pocket awareness etc etc...he simply isn't even AVG at anything important for his position.....I don't get the fascination with own QBs this fanbase has....they play the same position as 31 other guys and there are at least 20 better ones out there You guys want AVG players like Fujita gone but want to give McCoy anotehr year....makes 0 sense
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Quote:
IS IT TOO SOON to kick Colt McCoy to the curb?
Too late, anyone who reads this board already knows that most of the people on this site gave up on him a long time ago. Frankly, he deserves better.
2 years with 2 head coaches, 2 different systems, 40% of an offensive line, poor WRs, injury riddled RBs - not many could be successful. Instead they'd rather fire the president, fire to GM, fire the head coach, and use a high draft pick on a guy that may be no better than him (and in some cases has similar qualities and size, while complaining Colt's too small). Starting over again for the 5, 6, 7th, whatever time in the last dozen years or so.
After many years of reading this board, and being on the Browns site with everyone years preceding that - I've learned that most Browns fans will never be happy.
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Quote:
Quote:
McCoy probably isn't going to get us to the promised land, that much is evident. But he's far from the only problem we have on the offensive side of the ball.
jeep...so you have made up your mind, kick him to the curb!
Not so fast. I don't think we should cut him or anything dumb like that. I just don't see him as the complete package. He's no different than any other player on the team. If we can find better then we should get it. Given the long list of other positions of need we have I don't know that I'd be willing to "kick him to the curb" just yet.
"Let people think this is a dumpster fire," - Mike Pettine
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He is still under contract.
I don't kick him to the curb. I draft a qb then see who has it and who doesn't.
Even if Colt never gets any better, he is a decent back-up.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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For me, the only 2 QB's in this draft that I want are Luck and Barkley. If you can somehow grab one of them, you do it, and you keep Colt on the roster. Let them duke it out in training camp. Yes, another QB controversy will take over the talk (kinda nice to get a break from that this year) but you need to get better play at QB on top of getting better play at some of our skill positions.
I'm iffy on RG3. I want to see how he grades out by experts, and I want to see his legitimate height.
Other than that, we should use our picks on getting better at other positions. Plenty of help is needed elsewhere.
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That's where I am at, if Barkley (Luck is going #1) is there when we pick then take him.
But as for McCoy, yes it's too early to know. Many snaps he is getting pressured and doesn't have enough time to throw, and when he does it is a 50/50 chance the WR will catch it.
He has been bad at times and good at times but he really doesn't have much talent around him either. No excuses, just saying I can't make a decision one way or another based on the body of work he has done with the talent around him.
But I definable take Barkley if he is there unless there is a team that wants to give up their draft to us to get him for themselves. Then I stock pile picks to fill the many holes we have.
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Haven't seen Luck play much. But I have seen Barkley and if he is available I would love to see us grab him.I watched a little bit of Stanford USC this year and both QB's looked like the real deal. Jones from OU didn't look bad in the little bit I saw of him this year.
Just to note tho: If the fo.staff is sold on McCoy then O.K. but if they say they need another year to evaluate that is B.S. and we need a new F.O./ staff.Luck and or Barkley are too good to pass up and be wrong about what we have. I do think the idea of keeping Colt regardless, as a back up, is a solid plan, so we probably won't do that.
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Quote:
I'm iffy on RG3. I want to see how he grades out by experts, and I want to see his legitimate height.
same here. i was big on him when he was a projected 2nd rounder or even 3rd rounder. but, now that consensus is pushing him into the 1st round (and some top10 out there), he's a much bigger risk.
#gmstrong
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RGIII is listed at 6'2". Most from what I've seen/read say they'll be surprised if he's 6'.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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RGIII is a player though.
I'd take a shot at him. He's boom or bust ... but he'd got a ton more upside than McCoy. His arm, touch, ability to throw deep on target, and pocket awareness are well ahead of anything I have seen out of McCoy.
Hell, at least when someone broke wide open by 10+ yards, he'd hit them in stride.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Probably.
If anything, we'll draft a QB high and then sit him to learn behind McCoy.... because if we take a QB high we're certainly not looking to win right away, anyway.
So, no matter what, I'd say that McCoy is it for the now and next year.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Wouldn't you say that McCoy was able to do everything RGIII can do throwing football in college?
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Yes its too early.
The guy has no right side of a line, no wide receivers and an out of shape running game.
Give Montana this team. Give Manning this team. Give Anyone this team and you're not getting much better.
Invest another year and get the kid some protection and a bonafide #1 receiver and then lets see what he can do.
Trying to evaluate him with this crew is like trying to judge a gunfighter that doesn't have any bullets.
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Holy mackerel, Mac. You've put your eggs into the basket of the exceptions to the rule to try and prove McCoy's case? 
How about we even up the playing field here. How about I get Doug Flutie's NFL numbers, and go get Sennaca Wallace's NFL numbers. I could then state that McCoy is "too small" to be an NFL QB.
But you know what? That wouldn't be basing anything on "facts." Those are opinions, ergo, you're argument isn't based on a "fact" but rather on an "opinion."
I just can't believe you're trying to use a couple of pro-bowl, Super Bowl winning QB's to try and prove McCoy is viable. 
As to your question, as much as I don't believe in him, yeah, it's too early to give up on him. Judgement day is very near, though...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Give Montana this team. Give Manning this team. Give Anyone this team and you're not getting much better.
I dissagree COMPLETELY with this statement.
Look at Indy, same team with and without Manning, difference of winning ANY GAMES.
If you put a competant NFL Starter on this team, even with the shortened offseason, We'd have better production.
To say anything otherwise is to be blinded by McCoy and his awesome F-150...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Too late, anyone who reads this board already knows that most of the people on this site gave up on him a long time ago. Frankly, he deserves better.
I disagree. I think it's just your perception that "most of the people on this site gave up on him a long time ago." I think more people are in his corner than not. I don't believe in him, but I haven't dropped the gavel.
I have very little use for the poll forum, but I think I'm going to start a Colt McCoy one out of pure curiosity...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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You know what Mr. Nice guy? You're way more cruel on them than me....stop teasing them
#gmstrong
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Wouldn't you say that McCoy was able to do everything RGIII can do throwing football in college?
Nope.
RGIII can throw a deep ball that McCoy can only dream of throwing. He has excellent middle and deep accuracy, which McCoy has never had. RGIII can make all of the throws, including the outs. McCoy will always struggle with those throws because he does not anticipate well, and has a pretty weak arm.
I know that Griffin is smart. He's already working on his Masters degree.
He does still have a year of eligibility left, so he may decide to pull a Luck and stay for another year ...... but who knows.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Give Montana this team. Give Manning this team. Give Anyone this team and you're not getting much better.
I dissagree COMPLETELY with this statement.
Look at Indy, same team with and without Manning, difference of winning ANY GAMES.
If you put a competant NFL Starter on this team, even with the shortened offseason, We'd have better production.
To say anything otherwise is to be blinded by McCoy and his awesome F-150...
Wait, haven't we had some pretty dismal seasons with at least seemingly competent NFL QB's? I'm thinking the problem is much deeper than one position.
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I just have to save that if Colt McCoy beats the Steelers (which he won't) his bandwagon will be pretty full.
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You know what Mr. Nice guy? You're way more cruel on them than me....stop teasing them
DJ, you gotta be a mean SOB if I'm perceived as a "nice guy" in your eyes. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Give Montana this team. Give Manning this team. Give Anyone this team and you're not getting much better.
I dissagree COMPLETELY with this statement.
Look at Indy, same team with and without Manning, difference of winning ANY GAMES.
If you put a competant NFL Starter on this team, even with the shortened offseason, We'd have better production.
To say anything otherwise is to be blinded by McCoy and his awesome F-150...
Wait, haven't we had some pretty dismal seasons with at least seemingly competent NFL QB's? I'm thinking the problem is much deeper than one position.
If the likes of Jeff Garcia, Trent Dilfer, Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson, and Jake Dehlomme... Are your definition of Competant...
Then I don't know what to tell you...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I just have to save that if Colt McCoy beats the Steelers (which he won't) his bandwagon will be pretty full.
... of people scratching their heads.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Question: Is is to soon to give up on McCoy?
I guess it all depends on who you ask..
Comments by some on this board have him packing his bags now LOL. The thought being he's not an NFL Caliber QB and will never be one.
I suppose that if the Browns had drafted Brees here and he had the exact same experience that he had in SD, those same individuals would be saying he's "fools gold" when he had a decent year but doesn't have the potential for anything more.
Then we'd go out and draft someone else, boo Brees out of town. The thing is, as good as Rivers turned out to be for a few years, they haven't won a SB with him at the helm as the Saints have done with Brees in charge.
So the thought that says,, let's dump McCoy and get (insert name here) to replace him,, doesn't mean we'll have success with the new guy either.
I still don't know if McCoy is gonna be the guy.. I'm questioning it and myself pretty heavy today in that regard. But we still have this year and putting some other guy out there isn't the answer. Seneca Wallace isn't the answer and the young kid we picked up off of the St. Louis PS is a complete unknown to me and to most fans I bet.
But he's not an unknown to Shurmur.
When I look at what this team went through this off season (change of coaching staff, new Offensive system, lack of adaquate prep time and general lack of receivers) I think that no matter who you put back there, the result is going to be about the same.
I look at receivers dropping balls and I wonder, if Drew Brees or Tom Brady or Payton Manning threw that ball that hit the receiver in the hands, would they catch it? I can't help but think that the result would be the same.
I don't want to come off as a McCoy apologist here.. I'm pretty darned upset with the Browns today and with McCoy as well. But I recognize that this isn't exactly a team that is merely a QB away from being respectable.
We lack weapons all over the offense and we still have holes to fill on D. And our Special teams aren't really all that special either.
Would spending a High Round pick on a QB when we lack so much really make all that much sense?
The answer for me is, yes, it's too soon to give up on McCoy..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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If I beat the Steelers, my bandwagon will be pretty full too.
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Given the Browns haven't found a QB since they came back, I'm of the opinion you take a QB until you have one.
What I mean by that is, if you're picking high and you don't have 100% confidence in the player you have (moving forward), you just can't pass on a QB who could be a franchise player.
Let's say worse case scenario, the Browns take Barkley or RGIII in the 7-10 range. They're brought along slowly and McCoy starts in the meantime. During that "development time" for the rookie, Colt blossoms in to a great young QB. Then what? You trade the young guy and easily recoup that draft pick. Hell, you might even turn one 1st in to two solid picks. Think of some of the trades that were made for guys like Schaub or Cassell.
The Browns need a lot, don't get me wrong but you can't win in this league without a QB. You just can't. So unless Colt is the man, which I just don't really believe he is, then you HAVE to take a QB IMO. It's not about "giving up" on him. It's about hedging your bets. I haven't seen much of anything from Colt (aside from toughness) that would lead me to believe the Browns shouldn't be hedging....
My strategy would be this.....even though the Browns need some defensive pieces, that unit is at least competent. You can probably pass on defense with your top 3 picks and be OK next season. Offense, not so much. I would go:
#1a - QB
#1b - WR
#2 - TE
+ Sign a good free agent WR.
At that point, you put both QB's in camp and say have at it. I'm not voting McCoy off the island, just making him prove that he's worth keeping around. If he's not, you have your insurance policy already in place and can build around him moving forward. If he is, you let someone make you an offer for the draft pick, which will likely be more than what you originally paid for the rookie QB.
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so, do you think JAX should pick a QB then?
(just trying to see how fully you believe in that philosophy)
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so, do you think JAX should pick a QB then?
(just trying to see how fully you believe in that philosophy)
There are certainly some things to think about......
1.) How many starts does the guy have?
2.) Where was he taken in the draft? i.e. what do you have invested?
3.) How old is he?
4.) How good are his teammates? and are they adversely affecting his development?
I think you consider all of them and make a smart decision. If you took a guy in the top 5 the previous year (Gabbert) and he only has 10 starts, then no, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to take another QB.
If you took a guy in the 3rd round, who now has 20 starts (soon to be 24 be years end) and he's not exhibiting some exemplary qualities then yeah, you have to start thinking about the position moving forward.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Quote:
They're brought along slowly
Like this could ever happen in Cleveland. People here would be screaming for him by game 2.
The most popular guys in Cleveland are always the ones not starting or on the practice squad.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,111
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,111 |
Quote:
The most popular guys in Cleveland are always the ones not starting or on the practice squad.
This is hardly a trait unique to Cleveland fans...
Crowded elevators smell different to short people...
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,842
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8,842 |
Quote:
Quote:
They're brought along slowly
Like this could ever happen in Cleveland. People here would be screaming for him by game 2.
The most popular guys in Cleveland are always the ones not starting or on the practice squad.
How slow does a guy need to be brought along and exactly who does he learn behind here?!! You want colt teaching a rookie how to read a defense?!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Quote:
Quote:
The most popular guys in Cleveland are always the ones not starting or on the practice squad.
This is hardly a trait unique to Cleveland fans...
Maybe not unique but we're experts at it...especially with QBs. Vive la QB carousel.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
They're brought along slowly
Like this could ever happen in Cleveland. People here would be screaming for him by game 2.
The most popular guys in Cleveland are always the ones not starting or on the practice squad.
How slow does a guy need to be brought along and exactly who does he learn behind here?!! You want colt teaching a rookie how to read a defense?!
I get your point man, but the organization has put veteran QB's in place to teach the younger guys. Dilfer was here, as is Wallace now. Who better to teach the WCO than a QB whose been in the WCO for his entire career?
Unrelated to the overall discussion, but just saying.
Now, NOT unrelated to the discussion, if we brought in a guy like Campbell or Orton, we'd have a competent starter who could let a young guy sit on the sidelines for a year or two.
Again, just sayin'...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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